Butcher knife" or "Butcher's knife?
October 19, 2009 8:09 AM Subscribe
[EnglishFilter]: "Butcher knife" or "Butcher's knife?"
I'm looking over a poetry manuscript and came across the lines:
“Pierre, get up here with your butcher’s knife.
We’re having frog’s legs for hors d’oeuvres tonight!”
Is there any convention regarding butcher/butcher's?
A quick Google yields 81,500 results for the possessive and 340,000 for the non-possessive. FWIW, the Wikipedia entry on the object is the non-possessive.
Thanks, Hive!
I'm looking over a poetry manuscript and came across the lines:
“Pierre, get up here with your butcher’s knife.
We’re having frog’s legs for hors d’oeuvres tonight!”
Is there any convention regarding butcher/butcher's?
A quick Google yields 81,500 results for the possessive and 340,000 for the non-possessive. FWIW, the Wikipedia entry on the object is the non-possessive.
Thanks, Hive!
"Butcher's" is technically correct, but "Butcher" is also acceptable and, in your example where the usage is part of a quote, I think more realistic.
posted by applemeat at 8:25 AM on October 19, 2009
posted by applemeat at 8:25 AM on October 19, 2009
A butcher knife is a type of knife
A butcher's knife is a knife which belongs to a butcher. It may also be a butcher knife, e.g., the butcher's butcher knife, or the butcher's bread knife.
posted by Rumple at 8:28 AM on October 19, 2009
A butcher's knife is a knife which belongs to a butcher. It may also be a butcher knife, e.g., the butcher's butcher knife, or the butcher's bread knife.
posted by Rumple at 8:28 AM on October 19, 2009
Butchers' Knife - a knife belonging to more than one butcher
Butcher Knife - a type of knife used by a butcher (see: Baseball Glove)
posted by blue_beetle at 8:42 AM on October 19, 2009
Butcher Knife - a type of knife used by a butcher (see: Baseball Glove)
posted by blue_beetle at 8:42 AM on October 19, 2009
Banker's hours. Grocer's apostrophe. Plumber's crack.
Yeah, butcher's knife. Shied away from, maybe, because "snife" gets mangled together unpleasantly in speech.
posted by rokusan at 8:43 AM on October 19, 2009
Yeah, butcher's knife. Shied away from, maybe, because "snife" gets mangled together unpleasantly in speech.
posted by rokusan at 8:43 AM on October 19, 2009
(see: Baseball Glove)
Bad comparison: the glove doesn't have the same relationship to the baseball as the knife to butcher.
And for that matter: it's definitely catcher's mitt and first baseman's glove, not "catcher mitt" or "first baseman glove", which sound ridiculous.
posted by rokusan at 8:44 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bad comparison: the glove doesn't have the same relationship to the baseball as the knife to butcher.
And for that matter: it's definitely catcher's mitt and first baseman's glove, not "catcher mitt" or "first baseman glove", which sound ridiculous.
posted by rokusan at 8:44 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (Merriam-Webster, 1961) lists butcher knife but not butcher's knife. Granted, the dictionary is from 1961 so usage may have changed in the intervening 48 years.
However, if you're taking a survey, "butcher's knife" sounds more natural to me.
I think Rumple's and blue beetle's argument which would limit a grammatical possessive strictly to indicating ownership is a red herring. The same page of Webster's Third on which I found butcher knife also had butler's tray as a certain style of tray, regardless of whether the tray in question was actually owned (or even used) by a butler or not. These things go on a case-by-case basis and there's no single rule which applies to all of them.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:56 AM on October 19, 2009
However, if you're taking a survey, "butcher's knife" sounds more natural to me.
I think Rumple's and blue beetle's argument which would limit a grammatical possessive strictly to indicating ownership is a red herring. The same page of Webster's Third on which I found butcher knife also had butler's tray as a certain style of tray, regardless of whether the tray in question was actually owned (or even used) by a butler or not. These things go on a case-by-case basis and there's no single rule which applies to all of them.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:56 AM on October 19, 2009
In my old-style (RP) British English I've never heard of a butcher knife. Maybe it's an American usage?
posted by anadem at 9:03 AM on October 19, 2009
posted by anadem at 9:03 AM on October 19, 2009
Best answer: The OED says:
butcher's knife, also butcher-knife, a particular kind of knife used by butchers; also, any large, strong-bladed knife of many uses
In my experience, compound words are sometimes marked in the OED with a hyphen, even when they can be used without it, although there are no quotations for "butcher knife" without a hyphen.
And personally, I've always heard butcher's knife (1744) rather than butcher knife or butcher-knife (1822).
posted by grouse at 9:22 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
butcher's knife, also butcher-knife, a particular kind of knife used by butchers; also, any large, strong-bladed knife of many uses
In my experience, compound words are sometimes marked in the OED with a hyphen, even when they can be used without it, although there are no quotations for "butcher knife" without a hyphen.
And personally, I've always heard butcher's knife (1744) rather than butcher knife or butcher-knife (1822).
posted by grouse at 9:22 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
It's both.
It's like some people say scissors and some people say scissor. Both are correct.
posted by Zambrano at 9:31 AM on October 19, 2009
It's like some people say scissors and some people say scissor. Both are correct.
posted by Zambrano at 9:31 AM on October 19, 2009
In dialogue, Butcher knife is more accurate. In narration, Butcher's knife is more appropriate.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:33 AM on October 19, 2009
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:33 AM on October 19, 2009
Butchers' Knife - a knife belonging to more than one butcher
Butcher Knife - a type of knife used by
... butchers
Butcher's knife - a knife belonging to a specific butcher.
[butchered knives: most knives most butchers use, or have you ever seen any of them treat their knives well...as well as many knives most other people use]
posted by Namlit at 10:11 AM on October 19, 2009
Butcher Knife - a type of knife used by
... butchers
Butcher's knife - a knife belonging to a specific butcher.
[butchered knives: most knives most butchers use, or have you ever seen any of them treat their knives well...as well as many knives most other people use]
posted by Namlit at 10:11 AM on October 19, 2009
Stop with all the "correct" and "accurate" stuff, jeez. There's no "correct" here.
You can use either. I prefer "butcher's knife", which sounds less crude.
Then again, it is a rather nasty instrument.
posted by rokusan at 10:33 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
You can use either. I prefer "butcher's knife", which sounds less crude.
Then again, it is a rather nasty instrument.
posted by rokusan at 10:33 AM on October 19, 2009 [1 favorite]
While you're at it, what about "frog's legs" vs. "frog legs" in the same quote? I think it would sound off to me if one used the possessive and the other didn't.
I personally like the sound of the possessive versions for poetry, but in normal conversation I say "butcher knife" and "frog legs".
posted by pocams at 11:55 AM on October 19, 2009
I personally like the sound of the possessive versions for poetry, but in normal conversation I say "butcher knife" and "frog legs".
posted by pocams at 11:55 AM on October 19, 2009
Languages have a tendency to simplify over time. This is commonly seen in compound nouns, for instance, which might begin as two words, then evolve to two words separated by a hyphen, and then become a single word: bed post, bed-post, bedpost. I'm pretty sure the same happens with possessives -- I just can't think of any examples right now.
In any event, there are various forms that compound nouns can take, and these are dictated by usage, not by hard-and-fast rules.
posted by dhartung at 10:57 PM on October 19, 2009
In any event, there are various forms that compound nouns can take, and these are dictated by usage, not by hard-and-fast rules.
posted by dhartung at 10:57 PM on October 19, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Solomon at 8:13 AM on October 19, 2009