Church of what else?

October 17, 2009 12:44 PM

Looking for obscure rivalries, ala Emacs and Vi.

I'm looking for some relatively obscure rivalries like that of Emacs and Vi for text editors or as this comment says, Lattimore and Fagles for Homer translators.

posted by movicont to grab bag (72 comments total)

If you're going on the emacs vs vi route, how about tabs vs spaces in code? Basically code gets indented, and some people believe indentation should be saved as the tab character, so that each person's editor can interpret it how they like, and some believe that indentation should be saved as spaces, so that the "author's" intent can be specifically displayed. Some complicated systems arose around making it work both ways.

elm vs pine for text mail reads might be another although that may have been local to my university since they were the only ones available. Similar to vi vs emacs a bit because as I recall elm opened vi to edit emails by default and pine used "pico" which has keybindings similar to emacs.
posted by RustyBrooks at 12:49 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Intellivision vs. ColecoVision
posted by furtive at 12:56 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Nikola Tesla vs. Thomas Edison

Crumple vs. Fold
posted by furtive at 12:59 PM on October 17

From the Linux audio world:
MIDI vs. OSC
jackd vs. pulseaudio
ALSA vs. OSS

Programming:
object oriented vs. functional programming
autoconf vs. scons
qt/kde vs. gtk/gnome
python vs. ruby vs. perl

Bicycling:
carbon fiber vs. steel
mountain vs. road
share the road vs. more bike paths

Music:
stochastic vs. aleatory vs. serial (this is mostly historical)
the clash were punk vs. the sex pistols were punk
posted by idiopath at 1:01 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]

Thomas Hardy and Henry James in early career
posted by furtive at 1:02 PM on October 17

Binocular rivalry (pardon the pun)
posted by furtive at 1:02 PM on October 17

Coffee: drip vs french press
posted by ben242 at 1:06 PM on October 17

Geeks being geeks, any technical decision that boils down to personal preference will eventually escalate to a holy war. Some examples of varying scope:

* Linux vs BSD / GPL versus BSD - style licensing
* Microkernels versus monolithic ones
* Various code indentation styles
* Pure versus less pure functional languages

Google is currently failing me, but I distinctly remember an on-line comic with an allegoric story, describing how conformist and oppressive Haskell is compared to Lisp, complete with dystopian future society and rebels with magic powers.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:06 PM on October 17

Scott vs Amundsen (first to get to the South Pole)
posted by furtive at 1:06 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Related.
posted by deadmessenger at 1:06 PM on October 17

Dynasty vs. Dallas
posted by furtive at 1:10 PM on October 17

Mrs. the dief suggests ASCII versus EBCDIC.
posted by the dief at 1:10 PM on October 17

The people who believe that all symbols in a Lisp-like language should share one namespace ("Lisp-1") vs. the people who believe in two or more namespaces ("Lisp-2") for symbols according to their use in the code as variable names, function names, etc.

No, really.
posted by enn at 1:12 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]

carbon fiber vs titanium vs aluminum
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 1:17 PM on October 17

Top vs. Bottom posting.

Forced induction vs All Motor.
posted by Mitheral at 1:18 PM on October 17

RISC vs. CISC

Big endian vs. little endian.

Oh, and if you want to talk emacs vs. vi, how about GNU Emacs vs. XEmacs?
posted by chrchr at 1:22 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

LC (or LOC) vs Dewey?
posted by cobaltnine at 1:27 PM on October 17 [3 favorites]

Mathematcians who are satisfied with existential proofs vs. mathematicians who require constructive proofs? …this may be more of a philosophical argument than a mathematical one.

For that matter, if you want examples of obscure rivalries, you could do worse than t read a history of philosophy (eg Bertrand Russel's, which is an enjoyable if slow read). These things stretch on for millennia.

How about Philips vs Robertson (vs Pozi-Driv, Torx, hex, etc.)? Rybczynski's One Good Turn has a bit on this. Actually, Rybczynski's and Petroski's histories of engineering subfields are probably fertile places to look for more such rivalries.
posted by hattifattener at 1:54 PM on October 17

Also, Dr Dracator, if you remember where you saw that comic, I really want to read it.
posted by hattifattener at 1:55 PM on October 17

vinyl vs. cd/digital
posted by rhizome at 1:56 PM on October 17

tables vs layers
posted by fifilaru at 2:08 PM on October 17

KDE versus GNOME
QWERTY versus Dvorak
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:10 PM on October 17

Here you are.
posted by Dr Dracator at 2:12 PM on October 17

Sally's and Pepe's.

In the early years of the 20th century (the Pizza Legend goes) Frank Pepe immigrated to New Haven, where he created the first American pizza by putting tomatoes on top of old bake-shop bread. His creation was so successful that in 1925 Pepe opened his first pizzeria on Wooster Street. By 1938, business was booming, the whole family was involved, and Pepe's nephew Sal Consiglio split off and opened his own pizzeria, Sally's. Soon, Pepe had moved out of his original store, now called The Spot, and opened a larger restaurant. Sally's and Pepe's remain locked in their Wooster Street rivalry today, two blocks apart.

posted by steveminutillo at 2:14 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Bayesian vs frequentist.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:26 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Gaming:
Halo 2: Final Boss vs. Carbon
Halo 3: Str8 Rippin vs. Triggers Down
posted by clearly at 2:26 PM on October 17

The Bone Wars between paleontologists Edward Cope and Othniel Marsh.
posted by decagon at 2:32 PM on October 17

Handbell players who play either Malmark, Schulmerick, or Whitechapel handbells will swear by their brand and tell you that the other two are evil, especially Whitechapel-ers versus the other two (which are American-made; Whitechapels are English-made).
posted by Melismata at 2:32 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Leibniz vs. Newton (over who invented Calculus)
posted by gribbly at 2:33 PM on October 17

Lots of these have already been solved, but I'll leave determining the winner as an exercise for the reader.
posted by b1tr0t at 2:41 PM on October 17

Google is currently failing me, but I distinctly remember an on-line comic with an allegoric story, describing how conformist and oppressive Haskell is compared to Lisp, complete with dystopian future society and rebels with magic powers.

You already found it, but it's indeed the first hit if you search for "lisp haskell comic". Also, the fact that it's dated "april 1st" is probably somewhat relevant (cf. the sarcasm mark discussion over at MetaTalk).
posted by effbot at 2:47 PM on October 17

The Hat party and the Cap party (in 18th-century Sweden).

Also, Pepe's is the best.
posted by languagehat at 2:51 PM on October 17

In bike components, Shimano vs Campagnolo
posted by advicepig at 3:00 PM on October 17

steveminutillo, It is Sally's vs Pepe's vs Modern, thank you.

and Modern wins, now that Pepe's has two other locations, I mean, seriously.
posted by cobaltnine at 3:02 PM on October 17

Prescriptivism/Descriptivism

Isaac Newton/Robert Hooke (over whether light was made of particles or waves)

Benedictines/Franciscans (there probably are better rivalries in the Catholic church, but having recently read The Name of the Rose, that's the first that comes to mind)
posted by gsteff at 3:12 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Sign conventions in physics, specifically special and general relativity.
posted by Johnny Assay at 3:21 PM on October 17

This might not be obscure enough (but also, I'm a nerd, so I have no idea), but Gnome vs. KDE.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:28 PM on October 17

This may be a bit too obscure, but in mass spectrometry there is some pretty heated partisanship concerning various types of equipment. QTOF versus ion trap, for example, and which company makes the most righteous instrument which kicks all others' butts. (The software used to analyze peptide spectra causes even more spectacular flamewars.) Definitely gets into how-many-ions-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin territory.
posted by Quietgal at 3:45 PM on October 17

All of these have their own churches and tribes. Wikipedia sheds light on most of the divides:

Porsche vs. Ferrari, in sports/racing cars
Fender vs. Gibson, in electric guitars
Drape vs. Structured, in bespoke tailoring
Modern, show-style vs. Traditonal, in siamese cats
Sport vs. Traditional, in rock climbing
GNU/Linux vs. Linux, in guess where
posted by Cobalt at 3:51 PM on October 17

Computer Holy Wars:

Atari vs. Commodore, 8bit and 68000 eras.

Photographic Holy Wars:

Contax vs. Leica
Zeiss vs. Schneider
Kodachrome vs. Velvia
RC vs. Fiber-base printing paper.
Vari-contrast vs. Fixed contrast printing paper.
Vivitar 283 vs. Metz
Pyro developer vs. D-76 developer.

Gun Holy Wars:

.225 vs. .308
9mm vs. .45
Revolver vs. Auto
Auto vs. Over/Under shotguns
Over/Under vs. Side-by-side
Stoner vs. Kalishnikov

Comic Book Holy Wars:

There aren't enough bits on the internet to hold these. Notable ones that will still spark ire and hatred:

Green Lantern: Hal Jordan vs. Kyle Rainer vs. Jon Stewart
LOSH - Before or After reboot.
X-Men - Lee and Claremont vs. Byrne and Claremont
New Mutants - Cypher era or Cable era
Wonder Woman: Giganta as Punching Bag vs. Giganta as Supporting Character (really, it's just part of this next one:)
Marvel vs. DC - DC villains are weak and underdeveloped and too easily dismissed, Marvel villains are power-mongers who see therapists and need a deus-ex-machina to beat.
Danny Hellman vs. Ted Rall

Motor Holy Wars:

Honda vs. Harley
Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge
Ford, Chevy and Dodge vs. Toyota and Nissan
Ferrari vs. Lamborghini
Audi vs. BMW
Infinity vs. Lexus
CJ vs. YJ vs. TJ vs. KJ
Classic Mustang vs. Fox Body Mustang
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:08 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]

Motor Holy Wars (Australian edition):

Ford vs Holden
posted by pompomtom at 4:21 PM on October 17

A few coffee-specific rivalries:

Standard v. 'naked' portafilters
Flat v. convex tampers
Pour-over/Chemex v. French v. Aeropress v. moka
Ristretto v. standard espresso pulls
Center injection v. rim-only steam wand tips

…and some specific cycling ones:
cutout saddles v. standard
clincher v. tubular
shellac & cloth v. synthetic v. cork handlebar tape
leather saddles v. everyone else
outboard bearing v. BB30 (etc.) v. ISIS v. square-taper
triple cranks v. doubles
posted by a halcyon day at 4:23 PM on October 17

For pirates, and people who like reading about them: Charles Johnson vs. Daniel Defoe. (When my book about pirates was translated into French the publisher stuck a new bibliography in without asking me, and credited the book in question to Defoe. Oooh, I'm still mad about that one.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:56 PM on October 17

In linguistics, you've got IPA vs. Americanist phonetic notation.

We've got plenty of theoretical controversies too, but on those there's presumably a right answer. This one's purely a matter of taste, which is clearly the best kind of holy war.

B: "Is not!"
A: "Is too!"
B: "Is not!"
A: "Is too!"
B: 'is not!'
A: is too!
B: is not!
A: is too!
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:57 PM on October 17

For milky tea drinkers: tea in first vs. tea in first.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:59 PM on October 17

Tabs vs. spaces (in programming).
posted by zsazsa at 5:29 PM on October 17

How about W.T.F. vs. I.T.F. Taekwondo?
posted by galaksit at 5:32 PM on October 17

> elm vs pine for text mail reads might be another although that may have been local to my university since they were the only ones available.

Blasphemy. Everyone knows mutt is better than either of those.
posted by cj_ at 5:51 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

In mathematics, there's a dichotomy between "theory builders" and "problem solvers". See Timothy Gowers' The two cultures of mathematics (warning: may be incomprehensible to nonmathematicians. I'm a mathematician, so I can't tell.)
posted by madcaptenor at 6:00 PM on October 17

Blasphemy. Everyone knows mutt is better than either of those.

Isn't mutt an elm clone?
posted by RustyBrooks at 6:21 PM on October 17

AKC "Border Collies" vs. working Border Collies.
posted by maxwelton at 6:26 PM on October 17

Isn't mutt an elm clone?

The developers of elm moved on to mutt.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:53 PM on October 17

butter-side up vs. butter-side down
posted by drlith at 6:56 PM on October 17

over the roll or back of the roll (how to replace the toilet paper)
posted by patheral at 7:17 PM on October 17

From applied mathematics:

Finite differences vs. finite volumes vs. finite elements vs. spectral methods.

And since people seem to be exhausting the geek arguments, a few more mundane ones:

Cups stored in the cupboard open side up or open side down.

Toilet seat left up vs. left down vs. toilet cover left down.
posted by roystgnr at 8:48 PM on October 17

Drillers Method vs Weight and Wait methods of well control.
(Weight and Wait is correct BTW)
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:21 PM on October 17

(Whiter) Gradualists vs. (blacker) Immediatists, over Abolition.

Consubstantiation vs. Transubstantiation, Real Presence vs. Pneumatic Presence.
Faith vs. Works.
Predestination vs. Free Will.
All sorts of little theological differences.

The philosophical differences between belief in Strong vs. Weak AI.

All the various intrigues and rivalries and putsches and purges in the CPUSA and the Old Left; too numerous to mention, but at one point or another Max Shachtman was probably involved on every side (from Socialist to -> Communist -> Trotskyite -> "Third Camp" -> die hard supporter of Us intervention in Vietnam).

Various rivalries within the Civil Rights Movement, over both leadership and tactics: ML King Jr. vs. Malcolm X, SCLC vs. SNCC, etc.

"Hard" scifi vs. "soft" scifi vs. fantasy vs. Trekkies ("Trekists").

Paleo-cons vs. Neo-cons, Religious Right vs. Corporate Republicans.

Lamarckism vs. Weissmannism. Nature vs. nurture. Biological determinism vs. tabula rasa.
posted by orthogonality at 10:47 PM on October 17

Vactican II vs. pre-Vactican II.
posted by orthogonality at 10:48 PM on October 17

Recent Out-of-Africa vs. Multiregional Origin, of modern humans
posted by orthogonality at 10:52 PM on October 17

Some debates from the world of knitting (yes, really):

Acrylic yarn vs. wool (or other natural fibres).
Denise brand interchangeable needles vs. KnitPicks brand.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:52 PM on October 17

I'm not sure if this counts because there's an objectively correct answer, but take a look at people arguing over .99… == 1. There are people that will go to their grave insisting they are not equal.

Also, I have no idea how this went unmentioned: Mac vs. PC is a pretty big deal.
posted by cj_ at 12:22 AM on October 18

Ooooh, the .999̅ argument reminds me of the whole "does the Third Millennium start at the beginning of 2000 or the beginning of 2001?" argument.
posted by hattifattener at 1:29 AM on October 18

Sympatric versus Allopatric speciation
posted by afu at 3:05 AM on October 18

Dawkins vs Gould
posted by tomcooke at 3:18 AM on October 18

Direct drive vs geared.
posted by scruss at 5:15 AM on October 18

> Also, I have no idea how this went unmentioned: Mac vs. PC is a pretty big deal.

It went unmentioned because the poster is specifically looking for obscure rivalries. This thread is actually doing pretty well, but some people seem not to be paying attention to that aspect.
posted by languagehat at 8:25 AM on October 18

Above the fold/below the fold in web page layout.
posted by furtive at 9:36 AM on October 18

Thanks everyone! This is a great list--I could mark much of the thread as "best answer". To echo what languagehat said, I'd much prefer obscure rivalries, though I suppose obscurity can change in the eyes of the beholder...
posted by movicont at 10:26 AM on October 18

Whorfian vs. Chomskyan
posted by jimfl at 2:12 PM on October 18

People's Front of Judea vs. Judean People's Front?

It used to be a bigger deal, but a lot of nerds got exercised over whether to format a hard drive with one big root filesystem versus several smaller slices (e.g., /, /var, /export, and /opt).

A lot of geocachers are pretty proprietary about their chosen GPS manufacturer, but that's tame like the old Ford-vs.-Chevy divide. Weirder is the split over when to log a "Did Not Find" log for a given cache: if you gave up too soon can you log it as "DNF"? How long must one search for a cache before you give up? There's also some pretty serious hair-pulling/eye-gouging/name-calling about whether to hide -- or, later, look for -- caches in cemeteries, and also over whether the very smallest cache containers deserve their own named size category (nanos: ooooh, how they inflame hatred!).

These issues all arise because the Guidelines housed at geocaching.com are intentionally vague, and people feel not just the need to interpret them, but to be militant about their chosen interpretation.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:29 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]

The Philly cheesesteak: Pat's vs. Geno's
posted by peeedro at 11:48 AM on October 20 [1 favorite]

Subscripts start at 0 vs. subscripts start at 1.
posted by klausness at 11:56 AM on October 24