How do you let yourself "let go" of time?

October 11, 2009 7:09 PM

How do you let yourself "let go" of time?

I can't always tell when someone means what they say when making plans.
This is especially... difficult ... with friends and my girlfriend.

With the agreed basic intention to do something at time Z, I have (in the back of my mind) a running timetable (It's not obsessive-- through conversations, you usually get to hear the high points of someone's day, so I just kind of realize that if they're going to, for example watch a sports game, or are going to work, then I just seem to remember "Hey, s/he started at X time, it probably took Y... add a bit for things-that-come-up... Okay! We should be ready any minute now!")

So I'll go about my day, and make sure I'm available... then time'll pass... more time'll pass... the "things-might've-come-up" changes to "... either there's a major problem, or they're really not interested."

I'll call/contact them to figure out what's up, and it's really frustrating (and kind of insulting, when I think about it) when the answer's something like "Oh, you were serious?! ... uh, well I've been free for a while now..."
Even more frustrating is the "I've been free for a while now... but let's just do it another time"

I know it's something I need to work on-- I used to get really frustrated (my own fault) when I'd make plans weeks in advance-- "Hey, next month there's a concert... let's meet on that night at X time, place Y"... then I'd show up... and an hour later, call to discover they'd just forgotten. I've gotten better-- especially planning that far ahead, I'll make sure to follow up (though usually feel silly doing so).

------------------------------------------

The area where it's getting especially troubling is with my girlfriend. We talk a lot, so both seem to know what the other's doing or interested in. (Normal communication-- I don't want to know what she's doing all the time... I'm interested, usually, but in a "Hey, that's cool that you enjoyed X", or "Sorry to hear that Y went badly" sense, not the "please document your activities" sense... that'd be creepy.)

She knows that I place a lot of value on being precise when making plans, so tries to do so--- but usually that ends up making her feel pressured/bad because she figures "Hey, if I told him I'm interested in doing X, then I HAVE to." Sometimes, she ends up tripping up on her words, and I, in a manner that's maybe too blunt, end up making things worse:
"Hey, we'll make that a tentative plan to do X at time Y."
"... it's in two hours... are there variables I haven't considered? I mean... I don't want to interrupt something more important"
"No no, I'm just relaxing, we'll see if I feel like it when I'm finished."
"... your interest/disinterest in an activity will change in the next hour?"
(This is something I admit I don't really understand most of the time-- you either want to do something or you don't. She explains that it "depends on her mood" which seems to me like a way to pass the buck... but that's a personality thing.)

I try to meet her in the middle when she's indecisive, and say "Hey... let me know your inclination right now-- just let me know what's up if it's something changes, and I'm planning on participating..."

I know she's not trying to be dishonest-- but I feel patronizing if I constantly follow up plans with "Okay, is this something you REALLY want to do, or are you just trying to stall for time?"


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How do I stop keeping track of the time?

I really hate the internal "argument" I have when someone says "Let's talk in an hour or so", and so in 1 hour I call. They say "Well, I'm doing X, call me in a bit." So, depending on the situation, I check in at regular intervals (30 minutes, or 1 hour, or what-have-you. ... if I think about it, and realize I'm doing it, then I try to vary the time-- 55 minutes the first time, an hour ten the next, etc--- but second-guess myself as to whether waiting longer would be uncaring, or not-waiting-enough time would be pushy.)

posted by Seeba to human relations (27 comments total)

"Hey, we'll make that a tentative plan to do X at time Y."
"... it's in two hours... are there variables I haven't considered?"
"... your interest/disinterest in an activity will change in the next hour?"

My god, I feel pressured just reading that. Could you perhaps communicate less like an interrogator and more like a friend?

"Hey, wanna go to that movie tonight?"
"Yeah maybe, ask me later."
"Hey, still wanna go to that movie? It starts in like an hour so we'd have to start getting ready now."
"Yeah okay." (or "Nah, let's just stay home and order Chinese.")

And if she doesn't, and you don't end up going, LET IT GO.

See how much lower-pressure that sounds? Same result, without the focus on "plans" and "variables" and tentative decision matrices, yeesh.
posted by rokusan at 7:24 PM on October 11 [1 favorite]

planning that far ahead, I'll make sure to follow up (though usually feel silly doing so).

Don't feel silly. That's totally normal. If you plan something far in advance, it's reasonable to expect that perhaps the person has forgotten about it, and polite to give them a reminder shortly before the event in question. Although, this only goes for normal day-to-day things one could reasonably be expected to forget. If someone forgets the day of your wedding, that's on them, not on you.

I place a lot of value on being precise when making plans

From the general tone of your AskMe it sounds like you're overly precise. Precision is good in business (i.e., don't be late to meetings, unless you're the boss, then do whatever the hell you want), but not such a big deal for informal social-life types of situations. Yes, if the movie starts at 8 and someone shows up at 8:30, they're being a dick, but if you're meeting someone for a drink or a meal and they're running 15 minutes late, it's normal. Lots of people are late for things all the time. Work on being less obsessive about the precision of things that don't require strict timing.

If people strike you as being overly prone to last minute changes of plan, just expect it. Go in with the expectation that they'll change their mind, you'll be less likely to be disappointed or caught off guard when they do.

Try to gauge how literal someone is being in the "let's talk in an hour" scenario, especially in light of how likely it is that the person is going to get hung up on something else. For example, if your very-busy buddy with a job in, say, customer relations says "let's talk in an hour or so," chances are really good that something may have come up in the intervening hour. You don't get to act surprised when you should've expected it.
posted by axiom at 7:25 PM on October 11

I think that it's pretty simple. You're a planner - and there's nothing wrong with that. You just need to hang out with people who are planners also. Some people like to be more spontaneous or go with the flow, not you.

I, too, am a planner and have found that relationships work much better for me when the other person is a planner, too. We can make a lunch date a couple weeks out and I know they'll follow through, for example. When I've had relationships with the more go-with-the-flow type, I usually get frustrated. They want to maybe get together Friday night. So I plan on getting together Friday night. Then Friday night comes along and they're otherwise occupied or not up for it or whatever. I've let go of these relationships because that sort of thing drives me crazy.

I say stick with the planners and also remember that people often talk about getting together, like "Yeah! We should do that!" but don't necessarily mean it. It's just the way people are and you'll save yourself a lot of agony if you can remember that in the moment and not get attached.

Good luck, I feel your pain!
posted by crunchtopmuffin at 7:31 PM on October 11 [3 favorites]

You don't have to stop keeping track of time. You are being responsible by doing so. Many people are simply incapable of planning ahead; they lack the mental stamina.
How should you deal with it? Simply by being a leader.
Rather than asking them if they will be interested in doing something in the future, simply tell them that this is what you will be doing. If it doesn't require planning on their part, delay informing them until it requires them to make a decision. Remember, they do not like to make plans for the future so they probably won't have anything else in mind and will go with the flow.
Sometimes they will not come along. Go without them. Typically they will get lonely and regret the decision and will learn to let you lead.
posted by Osmanthus at 7:37 PM on October 11

When they say maybe, cancel, and tell them you'll schedule for a time they know they'll be able to make it. Works every time.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:08 PM on October 11 [2 favorites]

Seeba, I have friends like this. They are a different kind of person than you (I am somewhere in the middle) and are probably not going to change.

The key to this:
Some people make plans with their casual life.
Some people don't plan ahead in their casual life and do what they feel like at the time.

When you plan something, Seeba, you commit to doing it and shaping events to lead to that eventuality. You have planned ___, and by God, ___ is happening. You are looking for something akin to this mechanism in their actions, but it doesn't exist on the casual interaction level. They don't make those kinds of plans, at least not often, and it's not a "big deal" to them. When they get off work, they decide what to eat--they don't make plans ahead of time. When lunch rolls around, they get in the car (or cafeteria or whatever) and might not know where to go or what to eat until they've already done so. It's a different lifestyle. Not better or worse, just different. And when they do plan ahead, they change their minds frequently enough that they might as well not have. I've been there.

You have exactly two ways to get a leg up in these situations. (Or at least I did.) Either:

don't tell the person what you are doing until the day before, then send a text message to them the hour before (to make it an impromptu decision for them), and have alternate plans if you don't get a response, or

hang out with this person/these people enough that they share their stream-of-consciousness decision-making with you directly.

Both of these strategies work. I was trying to reconnect/hang out more with an old friend from high school, but kept running into the problems you describe. The key ended up being the second approach this time; inviting them over to my house/proposing to do stuff somewhere, impromptu, enough until I became the "other person in the room" and it was natural that the other friend wouldn't really be doing a lot socially without me, anyway. It's hard to get stood up by someone when you're in the same room with them. Of course this is somewhat of a special case, I realize. But the moral of the story is--they don't know what they will be doing, or wanting to be doing, in two hours. It is unreasonable for you to want to know something about them that they do not*.

On preview, I would caution you against Ironmouth's method somewhat. This might work for the average friend, but for the really fickle/spontaneous types this might lead to the kind of entrapment you described on the part of your girlfriend in the OP. Some people just don't know if or when they'll be able to make it.

*And not all of this is socially-causated stuff. Some of us, sadly, work two jobs and our schedule jumps around week by week or even day by day, not to mention feeling dead tired after an unexpectedly difficult day at a stressful job. Some of us have demanding or special case relatives, or friends who have panic attacks. Some of us have IBS or really bad periods (okay not "us", I'm a guy) or variable blood sugar that leads to mild mood swings, or mild depression and seasonal allergies and what have you. Just saying.
posted by Phyltre at 8:17 PM on October 11 [2 favorites]

I think some people thrive on keeping options open. They might feel restricted by deadlines and schedules dictating what they feel should be decided at the moment. Maybe some of your friends are these kinds of people?

I'm with you, though. My brain doesn't work that way, and a lack of planning stresses me out. I've had to mentally divide my friends into reliable schedulers and unreliable. Certain folks know a date is a date, and they've become the ones I'm more likely to call up to hang out because I won't be left standing alone.

But your question was "How do I stop keeping track of time?" I'm not so sure you should. It's true you have to follow up on long term plans, and it sounds like you've been working on that. And it's true you have to relax the rigidity of the timetable a bit with the girlfriend, and you've been working on that too.

Hate to say it, but maybe it's a problem with some of your friends, and not with you?
posted by alight at 8:18 PM on October 11

I used to have this kind of trouble when someone would tell me to call them back, say, in an hour. I'd wait exactly an hour and call them back. I'd usually get nothing worse than a "gee you're prompt aren't you?"

If you're having trouble waiting, try to distract yourself. Get really involved in a good book or TV show. If you're so paranoid that you'll miss the designated call time, that it's keeping you from distracting yourself, set a timer for an hour and fifteen minutes (if they tell you an hour... people's estimates of how long they'll be busy can be wrong) - but here's the key, turn it away from you and don't look at it!

It helps that I have a friend now who consistently underestimates the time she needs to do things... I always add 10 or 15 minutes to the time she tells me to call her back, and usually by then she's free to talk. Or sometimes, she gets done before that and calls me instead.
posted by IndigoRain at 8:49 PM on October 11

When it comes to planning events weeks in advance, it helps me to do a two-part planning session with some of my friends. "Hey, do you want to go to a basketball game in a few weeks?" "Yeah, sure!" "Okay, I'll let you know details as soon as I figure them out." Wait a few days (I'd say about a week and a half before the event) and then call/text/ask them again. "Do you still want to go to the basketball game? I'm buying tickets now!" You may have already bought the tickets or whatever; all you need is an excuse to remind them about the event and give them another opportunity to back out. If they say yes twice and STILL don't show that's their fault, not yours.

(Side note: Text messages are a great, subtle way to remind someone about your plans. A quick "I heard a review on the radio that said the movie we're seeing tonight is awesome. Looks like we picked a good one!" is a lot more casual than a phone call and probably won't annoy your friend.)

I often struggle with making my own internal plans for the day/week and it discombobulates me when they get interrupted. It throws me into a bad mood and then my whole day is ruined. I haven't been really able to break myself of the habit of planning my day out when I'm daydreaming, but it has helped me to give up the role of party planner sometimes. Tell your friends to call you when they want to do something, and then ask them what time you should be there. It sounds like you're the one who makes all the decisions, and if you make your friends fill that role occasionally they might stick to the plan better.
posted by lilac girl at 9:29 PM on October 11

You really need to work on your communication, I think. Not everbody -- in fact, hardly anybody in my experience -- starts a clock going in their head after a plan is mooted. A lot of language does not mean what it literally says. Where I live, the usual goodbye is "see you later". We say it to shop assistants we'll never see again and nobody thinks anything of it, but I get the feeling that if I said it to you I'd get a call six hours later going "I've given you time to eat dinner and watch the news, aren't we seeing each other now?"

the clue is that you friends are asking if you were serious. They don't realise you meant it. I don't think you're emphasising it enough. For instance, every Tuesday I go for drinks with friends, we nearly always say "let's go to the pub on Saturday". This never, ever turns into drinks on Saturday. If it does, it is because of a follow-up email on Wednesday confirming drinks on Sat, then a checking text on Friday, then a further text on Saturday. Unless they're routine like our Tuesdays, even the most direct invitations " come to dinner on Friday" take at least two follow-ups before they actually happen.

As for these month-ahead things like you talk of, Christ I have email threads that go on for aeons syncing these things up and nailing them down. If I arranged it once and then turned up a month later I'd roundly expect to meet nobody there.

Similarly with your girlfriend. It's all just logisitical throat-clearing until you get to the "so film starts in a hour, we should go, do you fancy it?". Please don't say variables to her, though, y'know, ever. And it's perfectly reasonable for her to want to wait to assess her mood at the actual deadline. What if her dinner doesn't go down and she feels ill? Or it starts to rain and the couch is really cosy and she got sucked into the TV? Having to drag herself out because these unforeseen variables didn't figure in to Mr Demanding's equation two hours ago is going to be a drag, and she'll resent you for it. Relationships should be fun, not something from MS Project.

But hey, let's do lunch!
posted by fightorflight at 9:32 PM on October 11 [5 favorites]

Forgot this bit
How do I stop keeping track of the time?
you don't start that clock running. You go do something else, and at a natural break in that activity, you look at the time, and if it happens to be more than an hour since you talked, you call. Or not, just do something else, again.

If you really can't get the hang of it, just reply "sure, give me a call when you're free", then go away and *don't expect a call*.
posted by fightorflight at 9:37 PM on October 11

If my sweetie said 'variables' to me, I'd either laugh out loud or toss a book at him, depending on how I was feeling at the time. Fightorflight nailed it. I have a similar thing with things being in their place; if it's two feet from where it's supposed to be, I can look right at it and not see it. Living with the untidiest person in the world doesn't help. I make him find whatever it is that isn't where it's supposed to be because I haven't a clue where it is. Drives me crazy not being able to find something immediately. Making him find it works. And keeps me from wanting to kill him. I pass the responsibility/stress onto him. Advice: find a coping mechanism, like follow-up, then either go youself or cancel/rebook/get someone else to make the arrangements so you don't have to keep the time clock. In fact, I suggest you refuse to be the timekeeper except for yourself; let someone else make the plans and do the running around to get people together. Few people can manage being as precise as you are, so don't take the burden on yourself. So, when someone says "let's go to the game next Saturday", say "Love to! Call me when you're ready to buy the tickets." Pass the burden on.
posted by x46 at 9:53 PM on October 11

I was like this a a few years or so ago. What worked for me was changing my expectations: if someone has a history of saying they'll do something and they usually don't, or if you don't yet know how they approach things like that, then just expect that they won't follow through. For everyone else, at least keep in mind that they might not follow through sometimes.

What that means is either be prepared to do whatever you'd planned by yourself, or have something else in mind you can do that day if people don't follow through. I'll make plans to see a movie with people, for example, but I expect them to cancel or reschedule. I always have books and movies/shows (Netflix is nice for unexpected downtime) and craft projects and games to play if I need to, or sometimes I'll just go nowhere in particular and kill time. It's also a good time to get stuff done that you'd been meaning to get done but hadn't gotten around to, like chores or errands. Or hell, just take a nap if you feel like it.

For some things, like concerts, you have to commit ahead of time by buying tickets, and it really is kind of a dick move for someone to back out on you just because they feel lazy. But it happens, and it's generally not personal -- people who are that flaky usually have some issues to work through, and I say that with sympathy. Decide ahead of time not to be disappointed if that happens.

But can you really just decide not to be disappointed or annoyed or whatever? Not directly, I don't think. For me, I just paid attention to the times where I didn't feel like doing something even though I might have wanted to before; how it wasn't personal to the other people involved; and how much happier I would have been if I could have gotten out of it. I'd make myself remember that's all other people feel when they actually did cancel, and it wasn't because they didn't care about me or my time. They'd cancel because it didn't really matter, and my stubborn attachment to things like being punctual or following through was only important in business settings and in my head.

When you quit expecting people to follow through, it gets to a point where you don't care if people cancel. I mean that sincerely; when people cancel on me now I don't take it personally or get anal about having my schedule thrown off. Sometimes I'm a bit happy because I might have a bunch of other stuff I also feel like doing that day.

It's been helpful to me because relationships are easier when I'm not stressing my friends out or making them feel bad about something that ultimately doesn't matter. The best way I can describe my change of perspective was it struck me that people have to put up with enough crap from work and family that their friends and free time shouldn't be another source of stress, and I didn't want to do that to people. Some people like to structure their free time, but most people like their free time to be relaxing, too. Free time is in short supply so I try not to taint it.

I've also noticed that now I appreciate people who will easily make or dissolve plans, without there being any headache or drama involved.
posted by Nattie at 9:54 PM on October 11 [1 favorite]

In my experience, some peoples' brains are simply "wired" to be very precise and orderly about time, and some are "wired" to perceive of time more flexibly. I often see this conversation unravel into "Person X is so inconsiderate and unreliable" vs. "Person Y is so uptight and robotic" but I don't think it's as simple as this. I think the approach is to realize that you may be speaking in two slightly different languages, and be prepared to do some "translation."

I tend to be of the more flexible persuasion, so I'm going to approach your situations from your friends' points of view -- not because I think it's the "correct" one, but simply to give you a translation of what might be going on in their heads, so you can learn to communicate

----
If you're discussing a casual get-together with a friend and suggest "a month from Friday, 8pm"...
YOUR FRIEND SAYS: "Sounds good, talk to you later"
YOU HEAR: "We have an appointment. It is now in permanent marker on my calendar."
ACTUAL TRANSLATION: "Sure, Friday nights are usually good for me and I can't think of anything pressing going on that weekend. A month from Friday is a good ballpark date to start with, let's talk again when we have a clearer picture of that week to hone it down more specifically."
WHAT YOUR FRIEND BELIEVES IS IMPLICIT IN YOUR CONVERSATION: Unless you have discussed specific reasons why the date MUST be exactly "a month from Friday," this is an arbitrary date that the two of you picked because it's likely to be convenient for both of you. It's possible that, as the date approaches, it may turn out to be less-than-convenient. The goal of your get-together is "let's spend some time together, have a conversation, catch up with one another, enjoy each other's company, have a nice time." This goal can be accomplished nearly any day or time that you are both available. It's casual and flexible and could be moved easily without detracting from its purpose. Your friend is not being noncommittal because something "better" might come up, but because something more *time-specific* and *immovable* might come up, and there's simply no way of knowing a month in advance. When your friend agrees to "a month from Friday" he believes all of this is implicit, and as a result he believes that any date you suggest now is essentially an estimated "placeholder" for the actual date, which will be decided when focus is clearer.
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO ABOUT IT: Follow up. Call a week or a few days in advance and say "hey, we talked about getting together this Friday at 8, is that still good for you?" Be prepared to say "Oh, you'd prefer 9? Hmmm, that doesn't work for me this Friday, do you want to try Saturday instead?" We're not talking about a formal wedding invitation here, and the day/time does not need to be sacrosanct from the moment it is uttered.

Obviously if you have time constraints (you're only in town for this one day) or your get-together is more time-specific (you've bought concert tickets), then those things should be discussed in advance so your friend knows that you ARE making an "appointment" and not suggesting an arbitrary, implicitly flexible time. (Even so, it's still worth following up because your friend might simply be forgetful).

-----
When it comes to more near-term planning (your girlfriend's making tentative plans for a few hours from now), there are a few possible "translations" for her indecision -- and it's likely a combination of some or all of them:
1.) We're doing Activity X tonight because it's fun to do these kinds of things together. It's not fun for me when I feel stressed and rushed and subservient to a clock. I expect my social life to be more relaxed and flexible.
2.) X sounds like fun, let's do that, but let's also be flexible in case something different comes up (or similarly "Let's call Activity X the default plan, but let's keep brainstorming for a better option")
3.) Activity X sounds like fun but I'm relaxing in my PJs right now. If you want to go out in a couple of hours I'll have to drop everything very soon in order to shower, get dressed, and do all my girl-stuff to get ready to go out. That could be fun, but it's also a lot of work and at the moment I'm not sure if I'm in the mood to do all of this. I COULD be, but you just asked me a moment ago and I need to think about it. Instead of putting me on the spot with "you either want something or you don't," can you back off a bit? There ARE variables you haven't considered and I need to think about them before giving you a firm answer. And if I decide I'm not feeling up to Activity X tonight, would you be flexible enough to just come over and watch a movie with me in my PJs?
4.) I just want to spend time with you. I really don't care what we do or where or when we do it, it's being together that's important to me. You seem really gung-ho about Activity X so I'll follow your lead. Don't interpret my "sure, whatever" as lack of interest, I literally mean "sure, whatever you want, I'm game for anything because I didn't have anything pressing of my my own in mind."
5.) I don't really want to do Activity X but I will if it's important to you. Stop asking me whether it's what I REALLY want to do. It's not, but I'm not going to simply say "no" because I don't want to disappoint you (and if we end up doing Activity X anyway, you'll be insecure and constantly worried that I'm not having fun.) It's your job to man up and tell me if this is what YOU really want to do. If it is, I'll go with you and you'll never need to know that it wasn't my first choice of activity. But if it's *not* important to you, I'd prefer we find a different option. Can we settle this and move on or do I have to keep stalling for time while you decide whether or not to make a firm decision for us?

-----
Regarding your last situation:
YOUR FRIEND SAYS: "Call me back in an hour"
YOU HEAR: "Call me in precisely one hour, start your stopwatch.... NOW"
ACTUAL TRANSLATION: "I'm in the middle of something and not ready to have a conversation at the moment. I would like to have a conversation with you but it will have to wait until I'm finished. Since you asked, I'd estimate it will take about an hour or so, but that's just a guess."
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO: Call back ONCE (in an hour, as precisely or flexibly as you wish). If your friend needs some more time, say "that's fine, why don't you call me back whenever you're done." If needed, you can add "I really need to talk to you about this by x o'clock" or "I was calling to see if you wanted to go to a movie tonight at 8 -- give me a call when you get a chance but if I don't hear from you by x o'clock I'll probably make other plans" Then go about your life as normal. Be prepared to make plans without your friend if he doesn't call you back.

---
Anyway, these are my "translations" and it's worth keeping them in mind in order to avoid miscommunications. MEANWHILE your friends need to try to understand/interpret your way of thinking as well -- the burden is not all on you, I'm just focusing on that because you're the one who asked the question.
posted by Alabaster at 12:10 AM on October 12 [17 favorites]

Could you perhaps have obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD)? I have similar issues and this is a symptom (scrupulosity.)
posted by wackybrit at 4:44 AM on October 12

Also, this is a matter of people who are considerate and those who are not. That type of person usually does not take into consideration what others are doing or what they might have done to clear their schedule to meet at the appointed time. It isn't OCD on your part to expect people to follow through on what they say they are going to do. These people don't call up their work and say "gee something else came up" and not go in. They show up for work. It just means that they are more self-oriented and less concerned with how their actions may be affecting others.

All the bending can't be on your side with this. That's why I just reschedule on the maybes. Why would you set a time to get together and then assume someone was "not serious?" Also, note the counterexamples involve getting together in a month. I'm pretty sure that's not what you are talking about. You're talking about next day/same day kinds of stuff. At worst, stop making plans with these kinds of people. Just go on their schedule. They'll ask more because they want to see you.

How often is your GF doing this? That's a serious issue that needs to be worked out.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:03 AM on October 12 [1 favorite]

There are some great suggestions above. I'd also add that some people are not great at estimating how long something will take them. I am a prompt, planner type person and when I lived in LA it used to drive me bonkers that people would just not account for how long it would take them to get from A to B given that there would probably be traffic.

We used to joke that there was LA Standard Time that usually meant that things that were scheduled for X time would actually happen at X + 1 or 2 hours. It became clear that the people around me weren't magically going to change their perceptions--everyone pretty much showed up "late" all the time (although usually what it was was me showing up or expecting them to be "early"). What I would do is go over to people's houses while they were getting ready and then we would leave from there. That way I wasn't sitting around waiting for them (which, as you know, is infuriating), instead I'd be there hanging out with them--which is usually what the whole point was anyway.
posted by Kimberly at 8:14 AM on October 12

I don't think people have really addressed your question, which is how do you let yourself "let go" of time. So, let me try.

If you plan event X at time Y, you (I mean you, planners) seem to believe that if X doesn't happen at time Y, it's going to be a big disappointment. And perhaps it will ruin your day or night.

But here's the thing. If X doesn't happen at Y, maybe something better will happen. Or maybe something slightly less good. It's just not that big a deal. We're not talking about heart surgery here, we're talking about if we meet for lunch or not.

I think planners think that you have to control life somehow to make it more fun or worthwhile. And obviously there is some truth to that. Some things should be planned. But if you're just hanging out with your sweetie and she's noncommittal about a movie in two hours, is it really that big a deal? Either you're going to go or you're not. Either way it's probably not going to be the best thing or worst thing that ever happened to you.

It seems to be the case that you experience anxiety when plans are uncertain. I think it might be helpful for you to really dig underneath that anxiety. When you examine the thoughts underneath it to see if they're true ("if we don't go to the movies, it's just going to be a waste of an evening," "if she doesn't want to meet me at 6, she must not really want to see me") it might just go away. You might find you don't have to control life so tightly to really enjoy it.
posted by callmejay at 8:53 AM on October 12

It seems to me that you need to lower the "consequences" of something not happening. If your girlfriend calls off a movie night that you've already bought tickets for, it's one thing; if you haven't bought tickets yet, though, you should have a backup plan or two of other things you'd like to do. In general, you should have some 'backup' plans - people you call when you've got a free evening, DVDs you've never gotten around to seeing, those repair projects around the house that aren't urgent... keep a list if you have to, of stuff that would be fun but that doesn't have to happen. That way if something falls through you're not devastated, and your girlfriend doesn't have all that pressure on her of having to follow through with every single off-hand comment she ever makes. If she's stressed out and exhausted and calls off your dinner plans, you can go get carry-out or make something for her and spend a quiet evening cuddling on the sofa with a movie. Or if she's busy that evening, you can call up your friends who don't like planning ahead of time and ask if they want to go (catch a movie / grab dinner / get ice cream / go to a bar / whatever). Learning to deal with surprises and unexpected events is a part of life.

(Of course, your girlfriend can make some adjustments as well, and it seems like she's willing to - giving you some advance notice when plans are likely to change, marking special plans that are more concrete on her calendar, assigning extra weight to plans with you because she knows you'll be disappointed if she doesn't show up, etc. But the big thing that my boyfriend and I learned in this last year of living together with two very stressful jobs has been that sometimes, your partner doesn't have the same energy and interest in things that you do, and you have to be able to work around this.)
posted by Lady Li at 10:03 AM on October 12

Oh yeah, and tell people when you 'commit' to things. "Hey Tom, I was just about to buy tickets for that concert and was wondering if you're still interested," gives them the out to say "Oh, hey, sorry, turns out I'm busy that weekend." In my experience, confirming plans is common courtesy. It also lets people know that you're going out of your way to make this happen, so they know to be considerate of that and do the same themselves. For things that aren't ticket-things, it's still good to call and confirm details, not only to make sure that they haven't forgotten but to make sure that that particular time and place still works and to give the other person a convenient way to make any necessary tweaks to the plan.
posted by Lady Li at 10:11 AM on October 12

I totally sympathize with you. I am exactly the same way, and I have been known to literally set an alarm if someone tells me to call them back in an hour. So, I don't have any surefire solutions. I can say with full authority that you're never going to get THEM to change, and your life will be easier once you realize this. This is a manifestation of my control-freakiness, and when I work on letting go of my need to control (in general), my need to control this specific area falls away. I do this through meditation, ymmv.
posted by desjardins at 10:43 AM on October 12

Thanks for the comments-- it's quite helpful to hear different perspectives on this.

In m'own defense-- I do my best to not be demanding and am not mean-spririted with any of this, and m'girlfriend is also very good about telling me "You sounded like an ass just then. ... wanna try it again?". ... that usually pops me into a "oh shoot. My "blunt/honest" filter misfired... What'd it sound like on her end"? mode as I try to be more politic with m'questions/concerns.
(And the word variable is probably used by each of us twice a day in conversations with each other. It's not unusual :^) ) ... (Is that a double-chinned smiley face? Never been able to figure out how cleanly to close a parenthetical thought that way...)

I agree with a lot of the stratification about people who plan things and those who don't... if I came across that I plan everything, that's not true... I like being spontaneous, and certainly things change-- but (experience has shown) I'm not great at figuring out when other people are being politely dismissive, unsure-of-themselves, or just rude/forgetful-when-they-change-their-minds.

I guess to my perspective, spontaneity is awesome! ... but if you think about something, or mention it before hand, it's not spontaneous anymore, so you're going to have an opinion one way or the other... In order to not get into misunderstandings, I figure it's best to share your opinion.

I'll work more on changing m'expectations and filter (re: alabaster's examples)... but in your minds, doesn't assuming that a person won't follow through with something like this set off red flags about what other things they may/may-not mean?
posted by Seeba at 11:34 AM on October 12

And yah-- I agree that "hey if it doesn't happen, the sky won't fall!"

It just... strikes me as indicative of how much or how little someone values a friendship that they wouldn't make a point to keep their word. (Does not apply to nebulous plans... that's a communication SNAFU on both ends)

desjardins- the meditation's a good suggestion-- it's what m'girlfriend also suggested (with yoga). ... ... drove me crazy.
There's gotta be a way to relax and clear your mind... without hearing (not in the crazy-hearing-voices-tell-you-to-climb-a-tree sense) my voice say "wait a minute. If you're thinking about not thinking, then you're thinking, and won't logic your way out of a circular argument, so why don't you just start thinking about X, Y, Z because you'll have to do that when you stand up from here..."
... then I start balancing my checkbook (Or what-have-you) until the yoga class gets back to the fun exercise/stretching portions. :^D
posted by Seeba at 11:42 AM on October 12

To be honest, if people not acting like y'do when it comes to expectations of meetings and times and so on is getting you into this state I think I'd suggest y'need to talk to a mental health professional. There are punctual people and planners, but as was suggested upthread y'are taking this into a realm of obsession. It's not an insult or big reflection on your friends if they forget something that was talked about once, a month ago, and then never Mentioned again. Even weddings have a two-part invite system.
posted by fightorflight at 12:18 PM on October 12

With my examples I didn't mean to imply that you were too controlling or that your friends were to flaky -- I just meant that two people can have a conversation and walk away with completely different conclusions, because they simply have different ways of perceiving time, different interpretations of the nature/purpose of the conversation.

Person A interprets a conversation as "we just made firm plans for X at Y."
Person B interprets the SAME conversation as "we just brainstormed some future plans to consider and then confirm or adjust in a later follow-up. The plans will most likely be in the ballpark of X at Y."
Person C is from LA (as per Kimberly's response) and interprets the same conversation as "we made plans for X at Y, but based on the local culture, it's understood that we really won't get started until X+1 at Y" (I've heard that this is very common in some countries/cultures).


This does not mean that person B is flaky and unreliable, or that person A is controlling and anal, or that person C is inconsiderate (although all of the above can be true). The appropriate response depends on the situation at hand. If you hold your friends "let's meet at a bar tonight" to the same time-standards as you would hold them to a court appearance, you should probably relax a bit. If you show up to a party 20 minutes late, that's usually socially acceptable, but if you show up to a *dinner* party and everyone has had to wait for you, it's disrespectful. If you have to back out of long-term plans because you didn't know all the details of your schedule when you originally suggested the date, that's usually understandable -- but if you leave a friend hanging with a $200 concert ticket because it turns out you had something better to do, then, well you get the point...

As for your actual question about "letting go" of time, I'm not sure because I have the opposite problem and wish I were more mindful of time.

However, I do know someone who is VERY OCD about time who has recently learned to relax (somewhat) about it. His sense of time has not gone away, he has simply decided that life is to short to quibble over every minute. He focuses more on the meaning of the activity than the schedule. So the meeting started at 8:07 instead of 8, did we still get the job done? Is my life ruined because of those 7 minutes? So my friends and I were going to go out to a bar at 9 but it's 9:45 and we're still sitting on the couch while whats-his-name takes a shower--but are we still together and having a good time? Was 9pm some magical required number, after which no fun could be had?

Following my friend's example, my advice to you would be to 1.) acknowledge that you probably CANNOT "let go of time" any more than you can stop perceiving the color blue -- it's just part of the way your brain works. 2.) When you find yourself getting frustrated over something not going according to your plans, or someone's approach to time differing from yours, take a breath and think objectively about it. What is the actual, tangible consequence? In many cases you are perfectly justified in being angry and frustrated. In other cases the consequence of the time-disparity is negligible or nil, and you're just getting frustrated out of habit/anxiety. In other cases there are real consequences but they're fairly minor and perhaps your reaction to them should be proportional.
posted by Alabaster at 3:14 PM on October 12

I think Nattie and Alabaster have hit the nail on the head. I have the same problem that you describe, and my solutions are to:

1. As mentioned above, reduce the consequences of your friends bailing on you by having alternative plans and even pre-emptively assuming that they will bail on you;

2. Mentally 'translate' what they are saying according to Alabaster's handy mini-dictionary;

3. Look at the bigger picture, realise that it doesn't really matter that much, and get over it.

I totally understand your tendency to interpret their behavior as a sign that they do not value your friendship, because I have this tendency as well. You need to realise that different people value their relationships in different ways; the "five love languages" and all that being one way of thinking about it.
posted by nihraguk at 7:59 PM on October 12

There's gotta be a way to relax and clear your mind... without hearing (not in the crazy-hearing-voices-tell-you-to-climb-a-tree sense) my voice say "wait a minute. If you're thinking about not thinking, then you're thinking, and won't logic your way out of a circular argument, so why don't you just start thinking about X, Y, Z because you'll have to do that when you stand up from here..."

Yeah, I recommend reading some books about Buddhism because they directly address the circular thinking part and emphasize that you can't reason your way to the end of suffering. Reason is what gets us in trouble in the first place. (Remember, you think you're being totally reasonable by calling the person back in exactly one hour.) You can skip the spiritual parts of Buddhism if that doesn't resonate with you. Some Buddhist sects use chanting to break out of the thinking trap. You can use anything you like as a mantra - "everything will be OK" works just fine.

It just... strikes me as indicative of how much or how little someone values a friendship that they wouldn't make a point to keep their word.

I understand exactly why you think this. And in some cases it may be valid. What I am going to tell you is that it's not USEFUL to believe this. It gains you nothing except more anxiety, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As many people have noted, people don't like to be pressured. They also don't like people who assume the worst. If you even think stuff like "if you were REALLY my friend you'd...." people will pick up on that, and *surprise* not want to be your friend.

You can set whatever boundaries you like, of course. You can use the "3 strikes and you're out" rule. You probably won't end up with very many friends. There are people you can count on, and people you can't, and that has Absolutely No Bearing on how they feel about you. Hell, the only way I remember birthdays these days is because of Facebook. My husband is exceptionally forgetful - I can ask him to do something, remind him a half-dozen times, and there's still a 50% chance it won't get done. It is NO indication how he feels for me; I know he loves me unconditionally. He doesn't have to prove it by being on time, etc. What you are really asking these people is to prove their friendship to you.

Of course, I could be projecting - I see a lot of myself in what you've posted, and I've realized that for me, it's a deep-seated issue. But just because I attribute meaning to someone's actions doesn't make that true.
posted by desjardins at 1:48 PM on October 13