Never retreat?

September 29, 2009 1:43 PM

Should I go to a religious weekend retreat w/my wife and kids even though I am very, very lukewarm towards the the idea of attending a religious weekend retreat?

Not sure if there's a right answer here, but I would welcome some opinions and a fresh perspective.

Background: My wife and I have an awesome marriage -- married 16 years, two kids, love each other dearly, everything is great.

I was raised in a reform/conservative Jewish home, and a fairly observant one for this flavor of Judaism. I identify culturally as Jewish, but spiritually I am much more of an agnostic. My folks went crazy with the "let's discover our Jewish roots" stuff while I was an adolescent, and even though I’m in my 40’s, it's still something of a sore subject with me. That’s my baggage.

My wife, on the other hand, is half-Jewish by birth, and underwent a Jewish affirmation ceremony before we were married. Her parents are both mathematicians, and she was “raised” as an athiest. Her interest in her Jewish roots was sparked before we met, and has continued to grow over the course of our marriage. She is currently learning Hebrew and studying for an adult b'nei mitzvah (essentially, an adult bat mitzvah). We try to accommodate each other’s needs w/r/t Jewish observance -- I am fine with a lot of the home-based observances, but I get almost nothing out of attending services at the synagogue. For example, yesterday’s Yom Kippur services left almost no impression on me, though I fasted and made an effort to think through the holiday.

Generally, we acknowledge that we are on different planes when it comes to Judaism, but I try not to obstruct her needs for observance, and she tries not to compel me to do things I am uncomfortable doing. We are usually able to compromise and find a middle ground.

On to my question: Our synagogue is having a family retreat weekend in the near future, focusing on both the ritual and spiritual elements of shabbat, and I am really conflicted about going. I know my presence would mean a lot to my wife (who is very keen on going), and it seems antithetical to the spirit of the retreat to send her with the kids while I stay home. At the same time, I have a considerable amount of negative baggage about this very sort of experience, having participated in several of these when I was an adolescent -- my folks got sucked into the Chabad realm for a time, and I was dragged along to a lot of stuff I do not look back on fondly. At one point, doubting my commitment, my folks even sent me away for a month to a “Jewish boot camp”, something they now agree was very heavy handed, and for which they have apologized. Consequently, I view these “retreats” with great cynicism and disdain.

So...do I go with my wife and family to this weekend retreat, even though the very thought of it makes my skin crawl, and I am sure it will bring back a lot of memories of things I’d just as soon forget? I am very comfortable with my current spiritual state, and I am not looking for any changes in that regard. However, my presence would mean a lot to my wife, and I can’t in good conscience send my family without joining them. Furthermore, if I go, I have to go willingly, and with a positive mental outlook. The obvious half-meaure of “they go, I stay home” is not an option for me. I need to balance my wife’s needs against my own, and while I usually have no problem accommodating her needs, this is a very challenging decision for me.

BTW, my wife isn't demanding that we go, but at the same time, she is very eager to go, and would very much regret not going.

Any thoughts or insights from the hivemind?

posted by plowhand to human relations (31 answers total)

I know my presence would mean a lot to my wife (who is very keen on going), and it seems antithetical to the spirit of the retreat to send her with the kids while I stay home

Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you go and have a horrible time (which is a possibility, but not certain), you'll have made your wife happy and given your kids an interesting new (to them) experience.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:46 PM on September 29, 2009

say to your wife "I am very comfortable with my current spiritual state, and I am not looking for any changes in that regard. However, my presence would mean a lot to you. If you understand that I am going on this retreat as a matter of familial togetherness and not to change my spiritual outlook and you are not hoping that my spiritual outlook will change, then lets pack."
posted by nadawi at 1:47 PM on September 29, 2009 [9 favorites]

How do you feel about your kids going?
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:47 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]

How structured will the retreat be? Will everyone be doing the same thing (and thus, your presence or absence quite obvious)? What does the retreat involve? Can you be present but not active, or is this a hold hands and sing songs type thing? How are your kids feeling about this (and how old are your kids)?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:49 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]

I was raised as a Lutheran. I very much enjoyed my church experiences and the yearly family retreats our church sponsored. I loved church and I loved being Lutheran. However, when I went to college, I was exposed to much more than I was at home (think 'sheltered x 100,000) and consequently gave up my religion at some point. I went from total church-girl to atheist in a very short time. As I've gotten older and perhaps wiser, certainly less rebellious, I've come to recognize that I'm agnostic. I like the idea of God, but I loathe the idea of organized religion.

So I know where you're coming from on the agnostic front. How about you attend this one, with the stipulation that you'll go into with an open mind, for sure, but if you hate it you won't go to another one?
posted by cooker girl at 1:50 PM on September 29, 2009

What's obvious is you can't go; you're not suddenly going to go with a positive mental outlook.

How all the rest falls into place is up to you. I don't see how "they go, you stay home" is a half measure. My family is of the same faith, just at the lower end. Daddy (me) is an atheist but a cultural Jew. I refuse to set foot in temple, go to services, or have anything to do with religious events. On the flip-side my wife is also an atheist, but thinks that understanding what it means to be Jewish is important (even if you don't believe in all the supernatural stuff). So the kids, reluctantly, go to Hebrew school and she'll take them to temple events. It is well understood in my house that Daddy doesn't go to these things. When people ask where I am, I don't expect some fabricated excuse made for me. My wife simply says I don't believe in these things. My kids get it, my wife gets it, done deal.

Sorry, I vote for the half measure of you staying home.
posted by teg4rvn at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]

Not every retreat is going to be like the experiences you had as a kid. Why don't you try looking at this as an opportunity to broaden your horizons and maybe help you work out some of those hangups from adolescence. I'm not even suggesting you try to change your "current spiritual state", just that you try to see the positive family-bonding type experience this can be.
Also,
How do you feel about your kids going?
this is a very important factor to consider.
posted by purpletangerine at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2009

Personal anecdote: I went to one retreat in (Protestant Christian) high school, out in the mountains. I really liked the setting, and hanging out with other kids of the same age was fun. I was into the songs and activities, though none were really faith-challenging, more of feel-good stuff. Though I am now on the atheist end of things, I remember the event fondly.

If you can forget the past and embrace this as an event with people you like, you could have fun. If you can skip the parts that sound like fun and meander around or read by yourself, it could be a nice personal AND family retreat. But if it's something that will push your limits and stress you out with no option to avoid the unpleasantness, you should stay home. You don't want bring everyone else down just to be with your family.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]

Wow, quick responses. Our kids are 8 and 5. I have no problem with them going, and I think they should have a good grounding in our religion, so that if they decide at some point in the future it isn't for them, they will at least have a firm basis for that decision.
posted by plowhand at 2:00 PM on September 29, 2009

Give it a shot. Indeed, I think if you do go, you can bring up the negative situations in your past and how it has affected you, at least privately.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:04 PM on September 29, 2009

Not every retreat is going to be like the experiences you had as a kid.

This. It's good that you are self-aware enough to recognize your baggage, but it's still baggage.

I think the big question here is: what do you lose or give up by going to this retreat? You lose your weekend, obviously, but it seems like it would mean enough to your wife to make it worth losing a weekend. What else do you lose? If you're not really giving up too much to go, then it's probably worth it just to go and chalk it up to experience.
posted by lunasol at 2:06 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]

Furthermore, if I go, I have to go willingly, and with a positive mental outlook. The obvious half-meaure of “they go, I stay home” is not an option for me.

Well, given your second sentence, you either have two options...dissuade your wife from going or sucking it up and going anyway.

The bottom line is that you don't care for the ritual or spiritual aspects of shabbat. You sounds like another one of these would make your skin crawl. I'm sure your wife doesn't want you to have to go through that.

Beyond that, I'd let your kids have a choice, too. No child should be religious by default.
posted by inturnaround at 2:07 PM on September 29, 2009

Go. You're an adult and it won't be the same experience as it was when you were a kid, because you are not powerless within in it, and indeed it is not being foisted upon you - you're making a choice, putting on your big boy pants, and having a new experience rather than an old one.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]

Is there a way to reframe it for yourself as a family experience, while they are doing it as a religious retreat?

You've gone down this road before, so you'll have seen much of the content of the religious retreat. It'll probably be old hat to you, but new to your wife & kids.

Think of it maybe (this is a bad example) as like watching Star Wars with the kids; it's new to them, so they're excited. You've seen it several times, so if you were really paying attention to the movie, you'd be bored/irritated. But if you reframed it by spending your time watching your children experience it for the first time, then I imagine you'd have a better experience?

A better example might be an experience my sweetie had, coming from a family that was religiously observant while she became an atheist on her own. Because of her atheism, she had always chafed at any kind of religious observance and found it odious. This caused friction and nobody enjoyed any of it.

But it suddenly came to her one thanksgiving dinner after a bad year in the family with a lot of animosity between everyone, while grace was being said; for once, instead of chafing at being obliged to pray, she looked around the table at everyone holding hands around a common table before eating together, despite all the conflicts and distance between family members. She had a little moment of bliss; enough that she got a "it looked like you were really praying that time", to which she just blissfully mm-hmmd.

Play a different game than others are playing, and you can still play together. Does that make any sense?
posted by penciltopper at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]

I am the same as teg4rvn. However, since this is the first time, I would go as a family. Sometimes I think it is more important to do something that will make my wife happy (at least once) than it is to stand on principle when going will not hurt me, but could be a good family event. Sort of like visiting my wife's great aunt in Brooklyn.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:12 PM on September 29, 2009

Yes.
posted by jquinby at 2:13 PM on September 29, 2009

Going on this religious retreat seems like a great way to send a message that you're comfortable with the escalating focus on religion, and that you can be coerced into similar affairs in the future.
posted by mullingitover at 2:15 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]

If your wife really wants to go on a retreat - you should not be required to go. If staying home is not an option, then let her wait for a retreat she can attend on her own. I can't imagine she would thank you for coming on the retreat if she knew you were having a terrible time.

I understand that you don't want to disappoint your wife, but it seems the lesser of two evils to me.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:29 PM on September 29, 2009

Looking back at our 40 years of marriage I can remember many events where we supported each other when only one of us was eager to go. This is what a lot of couples do to show love. At some point a long lasting relationship matures from acts of passion to acts of responsibility as evidence of enduring love. My vote is that you should go. And, here's another piece of experience - you might have a great time. You never know.
posted by birdwatcher at 2:37 PM on September 29, 2009 [7 favorites]

Reading this, I thought of my parents and about how my dad likes to go fishing and my mom doesn't, but still, every once and a while, they get out on the boat, him with his rod and reel, she with her book. She'd rather be elsewhere on a weekend, but she does it for him. And my dad sometimes does church things with my mom that he doesn't particularly give a fig about. And I thought that, even though fishing and spirituality aren't exactly the same kind of sacrifice, this was the advice I'd give you.

Until I got to the last two paragraphs and especially the phrase "the very thought of it makes my skin crawl" -- because obviously this would be a much bigger deal for you than I'd originally imagined. You obviously know a lot more about what this type of thing is going to be than I do, so my only advice would be to see if you could determine just how, for lack of a better word, "hardcore this weekend is going to be. There's all different shades of religious retreats and those in your past might not be like those you are signing up for. Only you know what you can handle, and I understand if you can't exactly guess what you're getting youself into until you are there, but finding out exactly what you're signing up for might either (a) assuage your fears so you can please your wife or (b) come closer to pleasing your wife because you made an effort to determine whether or not you could handle it.

It sounds like you have a great communicative relationship with your wife on this subject, which is great. But even though you're coming at it from different angles, I'd still make sure you explain all of the details around your decision to her as well as you did here and, if you can't accomodate her needs, explain to her why. That will probably go a very long way. (I know that's how I'd feel if I was in her shoes.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:55 PM on September 29, 2009

Go. Bring some good books. Be prepared to hang out in your cabin/room/tent and just have a nice read. Be there so if it does get weird, you can take your kids home.
posted by chairface at 2:58 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]

I have couple friends who have differing solutions on how to do the "one person wants it the other person doesn't" situation. In some cases, one person sucks it up and goes with a decent outlook and it's clear they're doing it as a favor but that they came to that decision themselves and so it winds up being okay. In some cases, the person acquiesces to the thing but is clear they're there under duress and basically looks like they're sucking on a lemon the whole time and loudly talks about the sacrifices they are making and the bad time they are having. Skipping all the religious issues here, the question is: which of those sorts of couples are you.

I feel that people can deal with anything for 48 hours. If you have no issue with your wife going, and no issue with your kids going -- legitimately, you think this is okay -- then I'd try to go, pick a role for yourself -- the "does all the dishes" guy or the "tells great stories at the campfire" guy -- and try to have a decent time because it's what the family should be doing and consider it a mitzvah. You are no longer a kid. You can leave at any time. No one has power over you to wreck your time. This is why it is not the terrible expereinces you had when you were a kid, and that's a big deal.

That said, if you really think you can't do this, do everyone a favor and stay home. While your wife would love it if you would go, if the only way you'll go is as a grump, that's not actually meeting the spirit of the "oh I'd love it if you would go" situation. It may be that this is one of those things you need to go through to get over and let what you describe as your baggage actually be bygones. Trust your wife to not treat you like your parents did.
posted by jessamyn at 3:08 PM on September 29, 2009 [8 favorites]

How about you attend this one, with the stipulation that you'll go into with an open mind, for sure, but if you hate it you won't go to another one? - cooker girl

This is good. I like this.
posted by cleverevans at 3:17 PM on September 29, 2009

If the retreat is focusing on Shabbos, it's probably also focusing on the idea of family togetherness. Which would make it much more meaningful if the entire family attended.

I like to think of the Sabbath as (ideally) a day to take a break from everything else and to spend time with your loved ones. Time to turn off the TV and have a nice meal and a good conversation, maybe talk a walk if the weather is nice or play a game of chess if the weather is bad. For me, the idea is that here is one day in the week when you don't have to think about work, when you can just ... be.

But if you had negative experiences with Jewish observance as a child, this retreat may bring a lot of that stuff to the front of your mind. Indeed, the very idea of the retreat has you thinking about the stuff you were forced to do as a kid.

Having grown up in a very religious household, I understand how religion can be oppressive when it's not optional. And for that reason, to this day I will not set foot in a conservative church. It's just not the right place for me. This retreat may not be the right place for you, although if you can make it through Yom Kippur services you can probably make it through a "Yay! Shabbos!" event.

Can you talk to a rabbi or one of the retreat organizers about your discomfort? Maybe they can give you a schedule in advance and tell you which seminars you might want to skip, if you do decide to attend. They could also let you know what activities are available to those who want to skip seminars.

But if you think the whole thing will just make you really uncomfortable, don't go. Maybe you can suggest to your wife that instead of going to the retreat, you could have a meaningful weekend for the whole family. The only reason I can see for you to attend is to be there for the whole "Shabbos is family time, and this is a retreat about Shabbos" thing. Unless you think you can re-cast your negative experiences, but it doesn't sound like that's something you want to do.
posted by brina at 3:17 PM on September 29, 2009

Remember when you were a kid and you had to go somewhere and your parents made you because you were part of the family, even though you didn't want to be? This is one of those times. You go because your wife and your kids are your family. You can go and still be skeptical and just try to enjoy the being with family and socializing part. Chances are, there will be people around who agree with you and were also dragged there by a curious family member.
posted by anniecat at 3:48 PM on September 29, 2009

Also, your kids are really young. They'd probably miss you if you weren't there and family time is really good for kids at that age. They'll hate you both in a few years anyway. Why not have a fun time now?
posted by anniecat at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]

You seem to have lodged yourself nicely between a rock and a hard place.

Why isn't it an option for your wife & kids to go, and you to stay home? You're not doing anyone any favors by going along grudgingly - and I think it's unrealistic for you to just pretend your negative experiences don't matter. It's unfortunate that this won't be a family event, but not going seems like a reasonable compromise to make sure everyone's needs are met.

(You also don't want to set the stage for 'well you went LAST year' if you intend for this to be a one time compromise.)

On preview, everything jessamyn said.
posted by Space Kitty at 4:34 PM on September 29, 2009

You might take advantage of this to innoculate your children against the awesomeness of religious retreats before it becomes hazardous. My first sex, my first alcohol binge, and my first weed smoking all occurred at religious retreats.
posted by bukvich at 4:51 PM on September 29, 2009

Thanks, everyone, for your excellent and thoughtful suggestions. I think the suggestions to simply suck it up and go, provided I can go without being a grump (a farbisseneh punim, as my grandmother might have said) are more-or-less in line with my own conclusion. I was serious when I wrote, "I have to go willingly, and with a positive mental outlook." Only I should have stated this as, "If I go, I will go willingly, and with a positive mental outlook." I have no intention of going only to be a pain in the ass the whole time I'm there; that isn't fair to anyone, and I'd like to think I'm a big enough person that I can rise above the petty. And while I do have serious doubts that I will enjoy this, I can probably find some aspects of this that I will like on my own terms, as many of you have suggested. Finally, if I do go with the intent of having a good time, and still have a lousy time, I think I can skip any future retreats with a clear conscience.

As for why I'm unwilling to take the middle road and just stay home...well, this is supposed to be a family retreat, and this is my family. I don't think I'd have a clear conscience sending my wife and kids while being unwilling to go myself, at least once.

Thanks again for helping me find the positive in this.
posted by plowhand at 6:23 PM on September 29, 2009

Oddly enough, this was the topic of my rabbi's sermon on Yom Kippur. Actually it was about holding a grudge. Holding a grudge is like running around with a red hot poker waiting to stab the person (or organization) which hurt you but in the meanwhile you end up burning your own hand. The rabbi specifically mentioned people who hold a grudge Judaism whether it against a mean usher, a sanctimonious rabbi or entire synagogue or even movement. If you still holding a grudge from bad experiences in childhood, you are blocking yourself from finding your own meaning in Judaism. First, this is likely to be very different from a Chabad style Shabbaton. Second, you are going as an adult and have much more control over how you participate and how you interpret what you are doing. It might help to talk to your rabbi about your feelings (in general) and get his take on it. (Our rabbi offered to meet personally with any one who had a grudge and apologize for himself or on behalf of Judaism, as needed as a way to move towards reconciliation with your own history.

Finally, you clearly value family. This may inspire you and your wife to create your own Shabbat observance (in your own way or your own interpretation) that has the potential to create special family time, set aside from the rest of the week. We did different things at different stages of our lives. It took us years to get in the habit but lighting the candles and blessing the kids was special - now that they are grown it is wonderful to reach up to their tall heads and say the blessing. When they were little, for about a year, I had them draw a picture of something special that happened that week. (Obviously we didn't have issue about writing on the Sabbath). I recently found the notebook with all the drawings - it was fun to see what the children thought was important when they were that small. Not every week, but about once a month when they were teens, I would declare that since it was Shabbat, after dinner was to be family time - which usually meant card games - but a rare chance for all of us do something together as they got older. Kind of like a Seder - these things acquire rich meaning and memories because "it is what our family does" as well as "it is what Jewish people do".
posted by metahawk at 8:37 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]

Recognizing that it is likely to be different from your experiences as a child is a first step, even if you still think you won't be thrilled by it.

Seriously, give the Rabbi a call or drop by ahead of time. Talk to him or her - it might give you information to decide how you want to handle this and what their (the organizers) flexibility is for people like yourself. I'm quite sure you'll not be the only one in this circumstance, even if you're the only one actually taking a proactive and brave approach and talking to them about it.

And if you don't enjoy it, next time they go alone.
posted by canine epigram at 10:04 PM on September 29, 2009