I don't want to force the issue, but if I don't it will never happen.

September 23, 2009 7:53 AM

I want to get married. He doesn't. We're at an impasse.

For all intents and purposes I could be the girl in this relationship except that we've been together for over 10 years instead of 3. We've been living together for almost 9 years, we are now in our early 30s. I love him, and he loves me "more than anything." Kids are not in our future, we are absolutely on the same page there. I made it clear to him in recent years that I want to get married and that it's important to me. He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married. He admits a lot of this is irrational. After our last long long series of conversations about this, I told him that I would give him time and that the next move would be his (It was clear how I felt, and he was the one who was unsure, in effect I have already asked him to marry me). Since then, a year has passed.

On the one hand, this is a great relationship and I don't want to walk out on it. If I forced the issue, I could probably get him to sign the piece of paper, but I don't want him to get there under duress. I don't want a diamond or a poofy dress or an expensive party, I just want to be legally committed to him, and him to me. We really do have a great thing going, but we talked about this a lot and I don't think he is going to get over his aversion to the idea. He has already told me that he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough. Obviously there is more talking to be done but at this point I don't know how to direct the conversation since I have made my position very clear and still nothing has happened. The idea of just sucking it up makes me feel terrible and the idea of some sort of ultimatum also makes me feel terrible. It's not important enough to be a dealbreaker, but that still leaves a lot of room for unhappiness.

We have already signed legal documents for health care and visitation rights. Common law marriage and domestic partnership doesn't exist in our state. Where do I go from here?

posted by anonymous to human relations (72 comments total)

Not every question has a good or absolute answer. I am afraid this is one of them. Forcing him to get married would be as you clearly recognize a big mistake. I think your best hope is to convince him of the benefits of marriage. You do not make it clear what you think the benefits of marriage are in your post. It seems just as important to him that you not be married as it is to you to be married. I only add that your looking for a legal commitment sounds as if you are having doubts about his views on the relationship.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:01 AM on September 23

If you were married, what would be different now? How would that be better?

Does he say that he is committed to your relationship for the long term? Do you believe him?

I realize this is an anonymous question. These are rhetorical. I'm encouraging you to consider, if your relationship is already good, why do you "need" to be married, too?
posted by rokusan at 8:05 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

It's not important enough to be a dealbreaker

That's not the impression I'm left with. From the point of view of a random Internet stranger hearing your tale as you've outlined it, I see no future here.

this is a great relationship

Not so great if it's not giving you what you need.

He has already told me that he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough

But this isn't how you feel, and no amount of rationalizing is going to change that.

The short answer is DTMFA; the long answer is that each day that you spend still trying to make this relationship into something it's not is another day that you've made yourself unavailable to someone else who has everything this fella's got and wants to marry you.
posted by war wrath of wraith at 8:07 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]

To me it sounds more like a commitment issue, not as much as marriage issue and I think deep down you recognise that (health care and visitation rights are even CLOSE to a commitment). He really said he wants to be able to walk away? No, you don't want to force him to sign a piece of paper and neither do you want to spend the rest of your life waiting for him to just walk out. Asking for a commitment after over ten years together is considered completely normal and it's called a dealbreaker for a reason. I would simply have a calm conversation where you say that you waited for a year since your last conversation, have realised how important commitment is to you and will be leaving in x amount of time to find someone that can commit. Maybe time apart (and the legal and financial entagling you have to do even though you aren't married) will make him realise the value of the relationship. Or maybe it won't, but at least you will be free to find your own happiness.
posted by saucysault at 8:09 AM on September 23 [11 favorites]

I've heard many good reasons for not wanting to get married, but his isn't one of them. Just keep letting him know how much this means to you and how happy it would make you. That should be enough if your happiness is at all important to him.
Maybe some kind of pre-nup would calm his fears of being trapped and unable to walk away?
posted by rocket88 at 8:10 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

opps, should have been "legal and financial DIS-entangling"
posted by saucysault at 8:11 AM on September 23

Have you considered counseling or mediation? Not in a "we have a major issue in our relationship that's going to take a major course of therapy to deal with" way but in a "it might be helpful to have a neutral third party present to keep us on track for this conversation (or series of conversations)" way. It seems like the two of you are hitting a block somewhere in communicating and understanding each other across the "I want to get married"/"I'm afraid of getting married" divide. Talking to each other with someone who is skilled at keeping conversations focused and identifying where people are struggling to reach each other effectively could be helpful.
posted by EvaDestruction at 8:11 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

I'm very sorry you are in this position. Sadly, the only two outcomes are: You change your perception and opinions and be satisfied with what you have or you break up and find someone that has all the qualities you want as well as wanting to get married to you. Good luck.
posted by spec80 at 8:11 AM on September 23

You might take a look at a question posted yesterday, and specifically this answer. I wish it were formatted better, so it was easier to read, but it outlines legal benefits of signing a marriage license. If you want these things, and want only one piece of paper to sign, you sign a marriage license.

I think, though, that no argument will be good enough. His reason is not based on reason (you say it's based on fear) and your reason probably is based on feelings or emotions rather than reason, too. One of you must give in for the other to be happy. I'm sorry.
posted by Houstonian at 8:11 AM on September 23

If it's not a dealbreaker, then let the idea of marriage go. Really, really let it go - don't just leave yourself waiting for him to make a move, because he won't.

If you find you can't do that... then it is a dealbreaker.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:11 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]

I'm sorry to say this, but considering that he knows how strongly you feel about this issue, and that you put the ball in his court and he has chosen not to do anything with it (a year later), I would probably assume that he won't be proposing anytime soon. I think the next step is to decide whether you can get what you want and need in your current relationship--put his needs aside for a minute and think about you. Next, if you conclude that he can't--or won't--provide what you need/want, then you might ask yourself: is it healthier and happier for you to stay in the relationship anyway, or to be with someone who has needs and wants that more closely match your own? Which is more important--being with him on his terms, or having the commitment you're looking for?

I would also gently mention that, while I can't possibly know all the specifics of your situation, I would be very concerned if the person I had been in a relationship with for ten years was gun-shy about cementing our commitment because he worried that "he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married". One might think that ten years together might give him enough time and confidence in your relationship to not be constantly walking around with his hand on the parachute cord, just in case he feels the need to bail on you and what you've built as a couple. There are a million different opinions on the relative pros and cons of marriage for couples, and twice as many reasonable arguments why the institution might not be right for some people, but his reasoning--that he wants to be able to cut and run if things don't work out--might give you an indicator that he may not feel as happy and stable in your relationship as you do, or as committed to its future.
posted by sarabeth at 8:14 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]

Quick summary: You deserve to be with someone who's as excited about building a life together as you are. Hug!
posted by sarabeth at 8:15 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]

It seems to me as if the way you're framing this says a lot about the way you're thinking it - his objections are 'irrational', whereas all you want is to be 'legally committed' to each other, just like with your healthcare and visitation rights. Something tells me this ain't quite so. Marriage is much more than just something else to be signed, and yet this seems to be how you're describing it. If that's all it is, why is this bothering enough for you to post here about it?

I suspect that a little more analysis of your own motives here wouldn't go amiss, and a little less painting of your partner as 'irrational' (even if he has 'admitted' that). Given his background he's entitled to his reasons, and if you truly love him then maybe you could try a little harder to understand this.

As to 'where you go from here?'. Simple, you either decide that you love and understand him enough to let it go, and work on understanding your own (equally irrational) reasons for wanting to get married, and count the obvious blessings that you have in this relationship, or you make his life a misery over this, until he gives in and you get what you wanted, with a side order of guilt thrown in. Or you dump him and marry someone who's prepared to do this one ever-so-special thing, but may fail in all other sorts of departments...

if you really love him you know what to do...

I hate to say this, and apologies if this sounds snarky, but I slightly suspect that this might be yet another mefi case of the 'this relationship would be perfect if it wasn't for just one thing' trope. Even if he did agree to marry you I'd wager that you'd eventually find something else wrong. There's always something, trust me...
posted by Chairboy at 8:20 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]

Do you own property (a home) together? Because in a place without common law marriage, this could also be really messy and/or difficult without a marriage.

If it were me, I would be more interested in getting to the reasons behind his resistance, because from what you say, he doesn't sound like he's philosphically against the institution of marriage full stop. Instead, you say, "He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married". Why does he feel that your relationship would mirror that of his parents? What does he think needs to happen to avoid that? Correspondingly, what do you feel will change for the better because of a legal commitment? Will it make you feel more secure? If so, do you feel insecure about the relationship now?
posted by Kurichina at 8:20 AM on September 23

Ask him why he wants you to die of lack of medical care if you lose your job, because you won't be able to get on his if you're not married. Lay out the practical terms of it, because he needs to quit thinking in soft, conceptual terms.
posted by anniecat at 8:21 AM on September 23

Does he affirm his absolute commitment to the relationship in all contexts? To your family? To his family? To friends? Acquaintances? Or would he be willing to? That, to me, is what marriage is about.

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

This tells me no. That if things went sour he would not be willing to try and make things better (or is only willing to try to a very limited extent). So no, if what you want is marriage, this guy isn't the guy. On the other hand, you have a great relationship in all other regards. It's up to you to decide whether this is a deal breaker... we can't tell you that.
posted by symbollocks at 8:22 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

I've heard many good reasons for not wanting to get married, but his isn't one of them. Just keep letting him know how much this means to you and how happy it would make you. That should be enough if your happiness is at all important to him.

Not wanting to? That seems a really good reason.

If he should marry to show her happiness is important, then logic dictates she should shut up and forget about marriage in order to put his happiness first. Attempting emotional blackmail is not a great basis for a permanent relationship.
posted by biffa at 8:27 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]

Could you talk about coming up with a solid pre-nup that would make the divorce process, should it come to that, as quick and easy as possible?
posted by oinopaponton at 8:28 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

He admits a lot of this is irrational.

Is he willing to work on this? In other words, is he willing to address the emotional and personal issues that are, as he says, causing him to approach this in an irrational way?

If not, then it's just an excuse. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to get married, but he should be able to give you an honest answer.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:29 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]

This is a great relationship and I don't want to walk out on it.

So what does marriage have to do with it?

He has already told me that he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough.

And it's not?

Where do I go from here?

This is good example of what marriage really is about: not the unending faith in the love between two individuals, but this weird wariness that love is Just. Not. Enough.

It's enough.
posted by trotter at 8:31 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]

I love him, and he loves me "more than anything."

I realize this is a literal quote from him, but it strikes me as a phrasing that someone uses when they can't verify the factuality of what someone else has said. If you don't believe that he loves you more than anything, what can he do to prove it to you? Would marriage prove it to you? Or is it more about relying on the weight of the law to mitigate the importance of your doubts? ("I just want to be legally committed to him, and him to me.") Is there any other way he can prove his love for you?
posted by the jam at 8:34 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

This guy sounds commitment shy, which is not something that marriage will help. In fact I think it's good grounds not to marry him. He wants to be able to walk away if things "go sour" - this is something you need to accept about the relationship and decide if you can live with. That doesn't sound like a life-long commitment of any kind (married or unmarried) to me, even if it's been working for 9 years so far.
posted by Marnie at 8:48 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

I think the upthread suggestion of DTMFA is really off the mark. Personally, I view this impasse as due as much to your irrationality as it is to his. Yes, many people view marriage as the goal, but you seem to have everything that someone could want--a deeply committed and caring relationship with someone who loves you. You lack only the state's stamp of approval (and the admittedly myriad benefits that flow from that sanction).

If I were you, I'd stop pressing it. Have a last tete a tete where you tell him that you want this very much and hope he'll change his mind, but that you won't ask him again. Then see what happens.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:51 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]

I'm going to pull out two statements of his here.

A: He has already told me that he loves me and always will...

B: He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

On the one hand: he says he knows he will always love you. On the other hand, he says he is afraid of getting stuck if "things go sour."

What I'm not understanding is: if he knows he will always love you, then why is he even afraid of "things going sour" in the first place? If he is still afraid of things going "sour," then why is the fact that he knows he will always love you not alleviating those fears?

Those two statements sum up his frame of mind, and they are completely contradictory.

Now, maybe there's a way to explain why those two totally contradictory statements go together. My hunch, though, is that he WON'T be able to explain why he can hold those two completely contradictory statements in his head -- but maybe thinking about it will help him wrestle with that. Because right now he's stuck between those two stools, and you're just stuck there with him.

But it's gonna take him time to sort that out, because those notions, taken individually, make perfect sense. His parents had a bad marriage and he grew up under that, and it messed with his head. That doesn't go away overnight. He loves you, and he is convinced of that. He just needs to sort out that "my parents didn't have a bad marriage because they were married, they had a bad marriage because they were a bad couple. Meanwhile, since my beloved and I are a good couple, it's a totally different situation, and we'll be fine."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:54 AM on September 23 [13 favorites]

I'm in a similar relationship, but we've only been together 16 months (no legal documents, but we live together).

I really had to make the decision in my head that he was more important than my desire to get married. Yeah, a lot of people on AskMe think that you can't have a great relationship if you have different feelings about the BIG things (marriage, kids), but we DO, and I've had to actively make a change in my thinking, because I'd so much rather be with him and not married than be with anyone else, or on my own. He's wonderful, and my soul mate.

Feel free to MeMail or email me if you want to talk.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:54 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

He has already told me that he loves me and always will

...

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

These two things don't go together.

Ironically, it's not like he can just walk away as it is. If you split up, you'll still have to divide any property you both have an interest in, which if you don't have kids is essentially all the hard work of getting divorced.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:56 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

To me it sounds more like a commitment issue, not as much as marriage issue [...] He really said he wants to be able to walk away?

It's not irrational, or a bad thing IMHO. Not because I want to walk away, but because I want her to be able to walk away if I deserve it.

I don't want my partner to stay with me because she's dependent on my income; or because she's dependent on me for housing, or because the paperwork to break up with me would be a hassle. I want her to stay with me because, and only because, she wants to. As long as it's easy for her to leave me, her choice not to leave me proves she doesn't want to leave me. OTOH if it's difficult for her to leave me, her choice not to leave me might mean she doesn't want to, or might just mean she doesn't want to leave me badly enough to deal with the hassle.

Perhaps that means I have "issues with commitment" but I just think it means I want to be driven to be the best boyfriend I can be.
posted by Mike1024 at 8:58 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]

He doesn't want to get married for the same reason you want to get married. Because despite the fact that neither of you wants kids, and you've been living together for 9 years, you still want to get married to be "legally committed." He doesn't want to be "legally committed." That's the problem. You want to get married because it will somehow be different than what you have now. He doesn't want to get married because it will be somehow different than it is now.

Does he make considerably more money than you? If so, that's why he doesn't want to get married. He's emotionally committed to you, but he's doesn't want an unanticipated problem in the future to result in him losing half his money.

If not, it is worth asking the pointed question: Why don't you want to be married in the eyes of the law? Are you worried that being a husband and wife will mean we are grown-up and can no longer have fun? Etc.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:59 AM on September 23

I just want to be legally committed to him, and him to me.

The legal commitment is a big deal. You're minimizing it because you want to portray your needs as small, reasonable and easily satisfied, but you're in denial about what a big, big thing this is for him. He's terrified of marriage, but he's also in denial about how much it would hurt to tear loose from you even now. Commitment is inseparable from vulnerability; you're both stuck with it regardless of whether you get married.

Telling him that the next move would be his was a bad idea, and you'll have to scrap it. If he desperately wants to avoid such conversations, he'll have no trouble convincing himself that it's no longer an issue after a year of radio silence. Bring it up. Be kind about it. Strive to be understanding and patient, but don't let his fears control the shape of your future. If your relationship is to grow and be happy, then you need to help him find a way through his problems, and he'll need to do the same for you.
posted by jon1270 at 9:12 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]

I realize it's in the minority here, but I'm a fan and supporter of Mike1024's position. Without the safety net of a legal marriage, the choice one makes each and every morning to be with their partner is less encumbered and more honest, I believe, and when that other person is choosing to be with you, again and again each and every day, it's always seemed a lot more meaningful and "pure" to me.

There are just so many marriages where people stay in non-great situations because "it's too much hassle" (or "for the children" or whatever).

Worst case: Once you're married, you'll begin to worry that now he'll stay with you even if he doesn't love you or want you anymore because it's convenient, and how will you know the difference? Ick.

I've weathered rough times with my very-long-term, um... girlfriend (pick your term)... not because we're married and I am somehow "obliged" or honor-bound to deal with good times and bad, but because I care for her enough. The fact that it'd be technically "easy" to leave makes staying a bit more significant, I think: there's no question why.

Flame suit on.
posted by rokusan at 9:16 AM on September 23 [10 favorites]

This says it all worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

Why do you want to be in any sort of relationship with someone that wants to walk when things get tough?

This is clearly a deal breaker...you two want vastly different things...you want to be married and he doesn't.

Move on.
posted by socrateaser at 9:18 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

I wonder if he's worried that somehow the act of getting married would make your relationship worse. I've seen this before in people who have had experience with unhappy marriages: they associate the unhappiness with the idea of marriage itself. They may recognize this as irrational, but they can't shake the association.

This is a slightly different problem from "fear of commitment". It's "fear that this particular form of commitment will screw up all the good stuff we currently have." Your boyfriend could be very much committed to your relationship, and to a future with you, and not want to get married precisely because he's afraid that will mess things up.

So what to do? If this is in fact what's going on in his head, then it's not something that will just be fixed with more time -- it's not about you, or his thoughts about you, or your relationship. It's something that you two will have to deal with head-on. He recognizes that he's being irrational -- that's a good first step. He's going to need to face his fears.

Slightly ironically, if you guys just up and did get married, I suspect you'd be fine. Because he'd see then that his irrationality was just that, and that the world didn't end.

You should consider what you want to do if he says something like "well, I'm willing to do this, but I'm unenthusiastic/scared/what have you." It's not the proposal one dreams of, to be sure. But if his reticence is really about the act of marriage and not about your relationship, then perhaps you should be willing to look past it.
posted by wyzewoman at 9:18 AM on September 23

I feel like the advice to really interrogate your personal motivations for desiring marriage is a good idea to explore. If you feel like you are in a stable, loving relationship what will marriage give you that you don't already have? I can understand that little feeling that without the piece of paper somehow it might all evaporate but what boils down to is not an issue with him but an issue with some level of insecurity on your part. Beyond the legal benefits of marriage there will likely be no tangible difference in the day to day reality of your relationship with this man after nearly 10 years of living together.
I feel like frequently in life we question and doubt the face of things to a point that drives us crazy and when someone approaches you with mutually exclusive positions (I'll always love you but don't want to commit to you) or brain reels trying to make it add up. I would suggest that you focus more on the reality of this person being with you. Are they here now? yes. Is the likelihood higher than not that they will be tomorrow? yes. If that question is ever no you certainly have something that requires communication but as long as its yes, what will marriage really give you that you don't already have?
posted by zennoshinjou at 9:19 AM on September 23

What makes a relationship successful is that you share "core values". This is how and why religious people find eachother..criminals find each other--high achievers find eachother..they are drawn to eachother because they are on the same page about their personal ethics. (Often we wind up with people who don't share core values, but that is because of lust and lust wears off).

For ten years it has been acceptable for you to live without benefit of marriage. You don't want children and all legal things are in place. Have you have been disguising a core value in order to nail him down "in the future"? Bad idea! No one should keep quiet about something this important for this long with an eye on "convincing him to change his mind" later.

If you want to find out for certain where he stands ---leave. You'd find out if he is capable of changing his mind..(a ridiculously risky move--but it could pan out, I've seen it happen). If you left your current relationship it would also give yourself an opportunity to find a man who, like you, embraces the idea of marriage. Options narrow with age.
posted by naplesyellow at 9:20 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

To be fair, I have had the "Hey, should we get married? / Nah." conversation a few times, and it's always been pretty low stress. If we were of two different minds on it, and it was important to one of us but not the other someday, I suspect the dissenting party would just say "Oh, okay, fine, whatever."

But it sounds like your situation is a bit more.... obstructed... so if you're as stuck on the idea of being married as he is stuck against it, then I'm afraid you might be doomed, yes. So I suppose I'm saying that there are not two, but three possible outcomes here:

(a) One of the two of you bends and doesn't mind doing so at all: you're fine.
(b) Neither of you will bend and be happy doing so: you're doomed, and you should both move on and find more compatible long-term partners.
(c) One of the two of you bends but resents it silently for 30 years: you're doomed, differently.

I think (c) is the saddest, myself. At least (a) and (b) are honest.
posted by rokusan at 9:22 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]

Marriage is about more than the legal commitment. You and he both probably know that at an intuitive level, even if you aren't discussing it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have concerns about marriage in the abstract. I do think it's unreasonable to have concerns about marriage to someone after shacking up for 9 years.

You and he have a fundamental point of disagreement. He's already got what he wants, and feels no motivation to change the status quo. You don't, but you've let him drive the discussion (or more accurately, put the brakes on it). You've also got a status quo that's been in force for 9 years, and its very easy for couples to fall into a rut over a period that long. There could be some unexamined relationship issues making him wary. There could simply be a fear of change from a comfortable known situation to an unknown.

After 9 years, it seems extremely unlikely that his feelings on the matter are going to reverse spontaneously, and there's nothing you can do to make him want to be married. The only options that you can act on are 1) find a way to be happy with the current situation—"resigning yourself" to the situation is not a viable option—2) walk, or 3) keep talking about it. Maybe you'll dig deeper and one or both of you will actually have some kind of breakthrough. Letting him drop the issue for a year isn't helping you (singular or plural) make any progress on it.
posted by adamrice at 9:24 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

Bring it up. Be kind about it. Strive to be understanding and patient, but don't let his fears control the shape of your future

Don't do this, please. He knows where you stand. Bringing it up again will only irritate both of you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:24 AM on September 23

Partners can stay in dead relationships because of financial dependency or the hassle of moving out even if they are not married.

I used to be with someone who thought that the choice to stay together every day was more genuine than commitment and didn't believe in marriage. Now he's married to someone else. And I've been in a relationship where we loved each other and didn't need to get married to prove it and all that jazz, but when you got down to it, I didn't want to get married because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life with that person. When you are with the right partner, the idea of being free to walk away loses some of its appeal. And you are being put in a permanently inferior legal position by his refusal to marry. Those 1,000+ rights are important!

Unless your partner wants to work with a counselor to reconcile the contradiction that EmpressCallipygos et al. have identified, you're probably not in the right relationship. I'm very sorry.
posted by vilthuril at 9:25 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]

It's not important enough to be a dealbreaker, but that still leaves a lot of room for unhappiness.

Were it not some sort of dealbreaker, I don't believe you would be asking this question in the first place.

Where do I go from here?

Well, the truth is that you simply cannot change him. You cannot change the way he feels, nor can you change what he decides to do with his life. All you can do is simply let him know how you feel, and if your feelings are not enough to sway his decision, then you are going to continue to be in a relationship where you simply will not ever get married (unless, at some point, he changes his mind another 10 years down the road).

So, unfortunately, the future of your relationship, in regards to this matter, rests in your hands. If you can see yourself being perfectly satisfied with this man, for the rest of your life, without ever getting married, then stay with him. Otherwise, if you find yourself dissatisfied with the prospect of never legalizing your union, then you need to let go of this relationship and move on.

I also would not take too much heed to others who may criticise you for your desire to get married; everyone has different values and needs. There is nothing wrong with you wanting to get married, just as there is nothing wrong with him not wanting to.
posted by nimufu at 9:28 AM on September 23

Here's all I can give you, which is anecdotal information about 3 friends that were in the same situation, all women.

All of them chose to leave their boyfriends, not giving an ultimatum so much as I "I need to know by this date if you want to get married."

All three are married now.

TWO married different men (interestingly, both of them got married within a couple years after ending the relationship they hoped would lead to marriage but didn't. One was engaged *six months* later). They both seem happy now.

The last is married to the guy she left--he still couldn't make up his mind, she moved out, only a couple weeks went by and he decided to propose. They had a year-long engagement and then got married. As far as I can tell, they are happy as well.

So ask yourself if this is important enough to you to consider leaving. Because despite loving you "more than anything," he is not willing to change anything, so it is up to you to make something happen here.
posted by misha at 9:31 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

Where do I go from here?

This sounds suspiciously like "Where is this relationship going?" Only that's never the actual question being asked. Relationships either go marriage-grow old together-death (with a potential detour into "kids") or they do not. Where is not the question; your actual questions are if, when, and how do I make him go on this trip?

Take a good hard look at that rephrasing.
posted by adipocere at 9:31 AM on September 23

You might be able to persuade him to do what you want (marriage), but you want him to want to get married. Stop being conceptual and be specific. Tell him. "Love of my life, you know how I said marriage was really very important to me? It still is. I'd like us to get married. I'd like us to do this within the next year. Please marry me, beloved, come with me to Vegas and tie the knot with me. " It doesn't have to be Vegas, but it has to be specific.

If he says "No" then you can decide what to do.
posted by theora55 at 9:33 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

After our last long long series of conversations about this, I told him that I would give him time and that the next move would be his .... I have made my position very clear and still nothing has happened.

It sounds like the position you made very clear, and the position you THINK you made very clear, are different.

What you SAID was that you will wait for him to decide to marry you if he wants to.

What you THINK you said was that he should decide very shortly to marry you, and all the while he ought to know that it's still bothering you, and that he should decide before you are forced to bring it up again.
posted by fritley at 9:46 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]

Social pressure marriages never turn out well.
posted by Zambrano at 9:54 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

Yeah, a lot of people on AskMe think that you can't have a great relationship if you have different feelings about the BIG things (marriage, kids), but we DO, and I've had to actively make a change in my thinking, because I'd so much rather be with him and not married than be with anyone else, or on my own

Hmmm... you (OP) might be in a different position than this poster, considering you've been with your partner for 10 years, but I am definitely one of those "people on AskMe" who think you can't have a great relationship if you have different feelings about big things. Those "big things" are the bedrock of a relationship.
posted by jrichards at 9:57 AM on September 23

If you were married, what would be different now? How would that be better?

This is such a common--and I think valid--response to the OP's dilemma. But I'd be most interested in hearing how married people here would answer the above questions. In my own experience, being married IS very different than being in an emotionally-committed-but-unmarried relationship. I'm far from a cheerleader for marriage, in general, but there is an intangible cultural finality* to the institution that makes being married, for many--like the OP, apparently—a more serious and emotionally secure arrangement than continuing to live together with “everything but.”

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents)

Unfortunately, many of us came from dysfunctional families. But blaming one's fear of [fill in the blank] on one's parents is really kind of a cop out....Especially when you're over 30.

*Serving Suggestion Only.
posted by applemeat at 10:03 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]

The belief that if "things go sour" he can just leave is an illusion. You cannot just leave anyone you've made a life with. It will still be painful and difficult and legally complicated with or without a marriage license. Your relationship will be full of love or as loveless as his parents' relationship with or without the marriage license. Getting married doesn't make a good relationship bad or make a bad relationship good.

The need for the OP to get married probably not go away, it's a need she has that cannot be filled except with marriage. On the other hand, could an anti-marriage person stand to get married? My experience indicates "yes", but only if it's not stemming from a fear of commitment. Hating marriage because it's "slavery" or "religious" is very different from being afraid of exposing your heart to another.
posted by fiercekitten at 10:09 AM on September 23

Those "big things" are the bedrock of a relationship.

Or, they can be non-issues. You need to decide for yourself.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:12 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

This is the red flag to me because he's not committed to actually staying in the relationship. No really, he isn't, there's this bit of him that's always holding back and wondering when the end comes and this is his way of planning for it.

If he doesn't want to get married, ok, but this is a shitty reason both to you and more importantly to himself. It may sound trite, but he needs to do something to work this out for himself, be it therapy or whatever.

This doesn't mean the relationship has to end, but I think you'd be well within your rights to say "WTF, why won't you make the actual commitment to me?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:14 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]

It really doesn't sound like this is an impasse, unless you are 100% certain that neither you nor he will budge or consider each other differently. I think this is an excellent time to see a couples therapist, and talk over the fact that this specific difference in goals threatens the life of this relationship. My opinion is that you NEED to be talking about this NOW, or the silence and resentment will be poisoning every interaction you have together, until both of you feel so angry that the relationship is already dissolved into nothing anyway. Being silent about it, not being honest about the true depth of your feelings on this, giving him an ultimatum... these things don't engender more trust and closeness between you. Telling your partner that you see this as the potential cause of your breakup, and that you want to save your relationship before that happens, is an excellent way to SHOW him that this issue is really important and that you need to make a decision together.
posted by so_gracefully at 10:16 AM on September 23

We can all make endless guesses at his motivations and intentions, but in the end, if he hasn't made that leap after ten years, he's almost certainly never going to make that leap. You probably can't control or influence his opinion any more going forward than you already have.

So, now it's up to you. You know what you want, and you know he won't do it; so, is this a dealbreaker, or not?
posted by 2xplor at 10:48 AM on September 23

In my own experience, being married IS very different than being in an emotionally-committed-but-unmarried relationship.

Yep, this has been my experience as well. I don't want to say my commitment is stronger, because that seems to invalidate how I felt before the marriage, but it really is true. I know I can't just walk away - not because it'd be a legal and financial pain in the ass, but because I declared my commitment to him. In public and on paper. My ring reminds me of that commitment every day. I know it sounds like "oh you shouldn't NEED a ring or a piece of paper," and I know that's logically true, but there's a reason humans have concrete symbols for abstract concepts.

To the OP: I wouldn't want to marry a guy who would stay with me even if he was unhappy and felt trapped. I wouldn't want to be in any relationship with such a guy. I'd want him to stay with me completely by his own choice. Your partner is making the choice not to be fully committed. You have a very difficult and unenviable choice to make.
posted by desjardins at 10:51 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]

This does sound like a deal breaker. If you decide not to get married, than what? It sounds like you are at the point in your relationship where it slowly implodes in on itself. If you really want to get married, and he really doesn't, I don't see where you go from there.

He has already told me that he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough.

Maybe if you're both in High School.
posted by chunking express at 10:55 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

I can't see where her desire go get married is any more rational that his desire not to.

FWIW, the couple I know who have been together the longest (and do not want kids) are unmarried.
posted by rhizome at 11:08 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]

he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough.
Maybe if you're both in High School.

"Meet someone, fall in love, get married, have babies and live happily ever after" is just as much an immature fantasy version of what life and relationships are really about, and it's probably the one most people have in high school, and most grow out of.

The desire for marriage and the desire for not-marriage can both be valid, mature and responsible beliefs: it all depends on motivation. There's no need to denigrate one perspective or the other, or claim that one is "right" and one is "wrong" for all couples.

The conflict here is that the OP and her un-husband hold two different ideals. The two ideals themselves are equally fine and valid.
posted by rokusan at 11:45 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say someone needs to get married to have a fulfilled, committed, meaningful relationship. Where did you get that? I am saying that 'love is all you need' is a nice lyric for a song, but a pretty simplistic outlook on a relationship.

Anyway, there is probably all sorts of nuance to the OPs relationship that can't be expressed in a couple paragraphs on the Internet.
posted by chunking express at 11:49 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]

he loves me and always will, and feels that this should be enough.

If it's true, that is the absolute best thing any human being could provide. There's no reason to assume insincerity, I don't think.
posted by rokusan at 12:04 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]

Just a note to say that paperwork for health care and visitations and whatnot are often abrogated by the courts, or by local law, or by a change in the wind...hence the reasons why gay and gay friendly folks have been working so hard to institute gay marriage rights. If, for example, you were on vacation in a state/country where those papers weren't legally recognized, and there were an accident, you/he would have no rights where it concerns your partner. As well, property rights in the event of death (gods forbid) are really murky in cases where there isn't a marriage certificate. Wills, for example, can be fought, and while the courts generally rule in favor of a spouse over family members, that isn't necessarily true for partners.

Marriage confers a lot of legal rights that otherwise do not, under the law, exist. Also...huge tax benefit. (IANAL)

I can't speak to the relationship aspect of it. Only you know what y'all are going through, and what it's worth to you to either convince him to go through with the legal bindings, or to have all of your assets unprotected in the event of a tragedy. (Keep in mind that his family can claim *your* stuff too, should he pass away...you'll be hard pressed to prove what is yours and what is his. I've seen this happen, and it's ugly.)

My husband and I were perfectly happy living as unmarried folks until we started to accrue real property, at which point, it legally made sense for us to protect our assets by getting married and writing wills.

I hate to sound unromantic, but for us, the marriage, while lovely, was more about the legal aspects of our relationship than the romantic aspects. Our romantic relationship didn't change at all...we're just legally protected from vultures now.

Best of luck.
posted by dejah420 at 12:34 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]

What is it about being married that appeals to you? Do you want a ceremony with a fancy dress and cake? Do you want your family or your community or society at large to recognize you as a couple? Do you want his Social Security benefits if he dies? Do you want to set up a barrier to either of you leaving without a fight?

Figure out what the things are about marriage that you want. Then, go through that list with him and determine whether he is willing to give them to you and whether marriage is the best or only way to accomplish each of them. If he's not willing to give you the things you want or if marriage is the only way to get some of the things that are important to you, then you're at an impasse. But until you've figured out what you really want and what he really objects to, you haven't actually talked it through.
posted by decathecting at 12:40 PM on September 23 [6 favorites]

I'm going to second the suggestion about talking this over with a mediator or counselor, because this really does seem like the kind of conversation that could be usefully facilitated by a neutral third party.

There are a couple of different aspects to marriage vis-a-vis committed cohabitation that you might want to think about:

a) Legal status. In the US, married couples have very different legal status than domestic partners--even if a state has common-law marriage or domestic partnership laws, there is no Federal protection for unmarried couples. You and your partner probably need to have a conversation about whatever concerns you may have about this stuff, and a third party facilitator would probably help.

b) Personal feelings. Now, I never exactly got the "marriage is different" thing myself--I got married because it was important to my husband that we get married. (As it turned out, when I had a multi-year chronic illness, it was fortunate indeed that we were legally married because I needed his health insurance and on occasion his decision-making about my health care, etc., etc.) Even so, I did feel like getting married made a difference in our relationship somehow, which surprised me.

If it feels important to you to be married--if that feels like a different kind of commitment than a commitment to domestic partnership--you have every right to have those feelings. And your partner has every right to have the complete opposite feelings. But again, a facilitated discussion of this might be a helpful way to go.


Also...huge tax benefit.

Not necessarily, in the US at least. About half of married couples pay less in taxes than they would as two single people, and half of married couples pay more in taxes than they would as two single people. (Although the folks for whom marriage is a tax hit, not a tax break, are disproportionally the over-65 set, so younger folks are more likely than not to get the tax break.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:48 PM on September 23

Years ago, I wanted to get married and my partner didn't, so I let it drop. After some time, it came up again, and he said he was willing. I'm a Quaker, and part of getting married is asking for what's called a clearness committee, which is a small group of Quakers who meet with the couple to talk about their relationship, their reasons for marrying, their expectations, and so on.

In the process of that very rich conversation, I realized that, while I wanted to be married, I didn't want to do it unless it meant something to him as well. I didn't want to do it if he was just "willing." So we didn't do it, and while I still sometimes wish for both the wedding and the support and recognition and all, that was a turning point for me.

[side note: years after that, we did get married legally at the courthouse on our lunch hour, because I was pregnant and needed to get on his health insurance. That wasn't the kind of "getting married" I meant, though--that still hasn't happened, and after 16 years together and three children, and many tough times survived and many happy times and all that, it just doesn't really matter so much.]

It was helpful to me to that he was willing to do it if it really mattered to me; that was the point at which I was able to realize that for it to be meaningful for me, it had to be meaningful for him, too, and that let me let go of the issue.
posted by not that girl at 1:12 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]

He is afraid of getting trapped in a loveless unhappy marriage (like his parents) and worries that he would not be able to walk away if things went sour with us if we were married.

He's a fair-weather spouse and he's already planning an escape route.

Marriage (for me) was crossing the Rubicon. It was an acknowledgment to my husband, to our families and to the rest of the world that no-one and nothing is more important than we are to each other. That we've got each other's back. Period.

That is the kind of guarantee that you are asking for and he is chary of giving. Maybe it isn't in him to have that sort of loyalty.

Are you willing to spend the rest of your lives constantly looking over your shoulder, because he might not be there?
posted by pointless_incessant_barking at 1:34 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]

I've also seen the situation where people are afraid that getting married will ruin their happy relationship. I don't know exactly what you do about it, but it's not an uncommon feeling among people who grew up with unhappy marriages. You hear "marriage ruins your life!" often enough and you start to believe it. And if your relationship with him ever became like the unhappy marriages he's thinking of, I'm betting you'd want out too (so he doesn't really have to be worried about being trapped). You guys should definitely talk about it again, work through more issues.
posted by Lady Li at 1:48 PM on September 23

I can't see where her desire go get married is any more rational that his desire not to.

It's not. But that doesn't mean it's not valid and important.

I wanted to. He didn't. We both had irrational and rational reasons for it. It was a gut feeling for both of us. I wrote more about it here, saying this:

I also had a nagging feeling that there was a next step, because I grew up with a script that said dating-->living together-->marriage. I felt like we hadn't quite settled down, despite the mortgage and the conversations about kids and "when we're 70". It stressed me out. I felt vaguely uneasy.

He felt that weddings were foreign to him and unnecessary -- we had already committed, so why did we need to prove anything to our friends or family? Why spend the money? Why get up on stage? He was uncomfortable with that.

We had to sort that out and find a way to meet in the middle. We did. You can too. It's a long, looong conversation, and it's great practice for all the other long difficult conversations you'll get to have in your future life together.

The book Unmarried to Each Other complemented our conversations well.

Good luck!
posted by heatherann at 1:56 PM on September 23

Insist on marriage with the agreement that you will both continue to keep your finances and assets separate, and that you'll work out a pre-nup together to back that, and that the pre-nup will ensure any divorce is simple and straightforward - no fighting over assets, no expensive legal battles, everything is already spelled out and agreed on and clear.
This way, marriage is mostly symbolic (as you intend) rather than confining (as he fears).

But this only works if you continue to not have kids. With kids, someone is going to end up doing the majority of the unpaid labour raising them, while the other does the majority of the paid labour, and in this situation, continuing to separate assets and finances would be grossly unfair.
posted by -harlequin- at 4:43 PM on September 23

His stated reasons for not wanting to get married don't sound convincing to me. You say that you're on the same page about kids, but he might be (perhaps subconsciously) worried that you'll feel differently after you're married, and even that your strong desire to get married may be evidence that the biological urge to reproduce is starting to kick in. Now might be a good time to ask yourself really honestly if there is a chance that, after years of taking it as fact that you don't want kids, you may not feel quite as strongly against the idea as you used to. If you are starting to change your mind, you're much better off dealing with the consequences of that sooner rather than later.
posted by tomcooke at 5:02 PM on September 23

I've been dude. Fish or cut bait. Otherwise, you will be unhappy and resentful. Time works differently for women and the longer it takes for him to make the plunge the more resentful of lost time you will be.
posted by jadepearl at 6:46 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]

What happens if you get in a severe car accident and he flat-out isn't allowed to visit you in the hospital? No legal way to get around that one that I've heard of yet. What happens if one of you ends up unemployed and the only way to get health insurance is via marriage? What does he think of those two scenarios?

Honestly he sounds more like a "foot out the door" sorta guy here and this is probably a cut bait situation, but at the very least, those two things are really effing important regardless of however else you feel about marriage.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 PM on September 23

Ok, I'll be the one to say it. Leave him. You two want different things, and short of one of you happily changing their minds which doesn't seem on the cards, there is no middle ground. You will either always want to be more and be unhappy, or he'll give in, give it to you and resent it.

This is coloured by my own experience, as I was in your position after 8 years together. I finally decided (there were other issues at play too) that I didn't want to drag someone kicking and screaming down the aisle, I wanted someone who couldn't wait to be my husband. And for what it's worth, now I do. It's just not my ex. The only thing I regret is not doing it sooner. Hardest thing I ever did, but ultimately I'm much much happier. The one thing I will say is to get counselling before you do it, if only so you can tell yourself you gave it everything you had.

As with my ex, there is nothing wrong with your partner not wanting to get married, it just makes the two of you incompatible. I'm really sorry, but better you address this sooner rather than live in limbo like you have been. He's not going to change the situation, he's getting exactly what he wants - you without having to make any commitment. The only person who can change this is you. Best of luck.
posted by Jubey at 10:39 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]

If legal marriage is completely off the table what about asking him what compromises he can think of that will make both of you happy. Some ideas of the top of my head:
*A non-legal public ceremony (in my group of friends this has a 100% breakup rate YMMV)
*Referring to each other as Husband/Wife
*Signing a co-habitation agreement where spousal support and asset sharing is fair (or not, you can make it that whoever abuses, cheats or files for "divorce" first loses everything)
*Purchase real estate together in both your names regardless of who pays and how much
*Blend finances completely together - both assets and debts and get joint credit cards
*Take your current retirement funding and merge it completely regardless of who paid what in
*Fill out any and all legal documents can to duplicate the legal benefits of marriage
*Get your name and "forever" tattooed permanently somewhere on his body (you choose)
*Go on a honeymoon together
*Move somewhere that DOES recognise civil unions/domestic partnerships
*Choose a family name and share it (hyphenate, blend, new, his, yours, whatever) and change your names legally
*Tell everyone you are married
*Get married at a destination wedding that isn't legal where you live
*Make definite plans, both short-term and long term, together (ie go to Paris next spring, buy vacation home together at 35, build in-law suite so parents can move in as they age)

You have to be onboard with this too. If none of the options he proposes feel the same as a legal commitment to you then they are an empty gesture and you will have to decide for yourself how little you are willing to put up with and if you can bear to always put his happiness before your own (and if he acknowledges how painful that choice is for you - him ignoring this HUGE commitment issue for an entire year is not a good sign).

When you are in a relationship after so long it becomes second nature to think "as a team" and be willing to take one "for the team". But your team has a rogue player who is not willing to change his self-admitted irrational thinking because he is not suffering the consequences - you are. With him with you everyday it can be hard to find your own voice and true wants if his wants always dominate as they have over the past decade. You would probably benefit from some time apart from him to decide how important his issue is to you. Instead of a complete breakup you could try simply not living together and scaling back your relationship to either exclusively or non-exclusively dating each other. Getting out of your current dynamic may make you feel differently about the marriage and commitment issue.
posted by saucysault at 3:56 AM on September 24

Tell him to man up and burn the ships. Any other excuse seems to center around some bohemian rebellion against tradition which is bullsh*t as far as I am concerned. What does he have to gain if he gets married? 1) Your happiness and comfort, and 2) Legal benefits. What does he lose if he gets married? A trapdoor.
posted by jasondigitized at 5:17 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]

I don't have time to read all the prior answers, but here's my anecdote:

My Dad left my Mom after 25 years of marriage. It took a long time for her to get over it, but she finally did. She met a great guy - he was everything she wanted, and she was deliriously happy with their relationship.

He had been married at least twice before, and was carrying some ugly scars as a result of those divorces. He loved my mom, told her that he wanted to be with her forever, etc. He also told her that he would never again get married under any circumstances, no matter what.

So for a couple of years, everything was great. And then, Mom decided that they had to be married. One night, she gave him an ultimatum: marry her or they were done.

He stood up, said goodbye, and walked out. She was devastated again, and repeatedly tried to reconnect with him, to apologize, to find a way to repair the breach. He refused all of her attempts, and never spoke to her again beyond distant courtesy when they ran into one another in public. She remained bitter about it until the day she died.
posted by Irontom at 7:27 AM on September 25 [1 favorite]