Can a response be classified fear/anxiety if the expected physiological signs evoked by the stimulus are roughly the opposite of what you would expect?
September 22, 2009 4:52 PM Subscribe
Can a response be classified fear/anxiety if the expected physiological signs evoked by the stimulus are roughly the opposite of what you would expect? Or do some people's bodies respond to fear in this way?
I have a mostly backwards response to things which I do not want to do. Rather than shaking, sweating, and other signs like increased pulse, I seem to grow apathetic, even lethargic in some instances. It doesn't feel like "fear," though.
If it something of which I am mildly avoidant, I become less and less interested in whatever the perceived rewards and benefits might be as I goad myself nearer to it. For example, I am not a big fan of heights (well, falling, really); if a few thousand dollars were taped to the top of something, and I had only a sketchy ladder to get to it, at the second step I would begin to question the wisdom of doing this and by the fifth step I probably would have renounced the need for money entirely. I come back down the ladder and I'm fine again.
If it is something of which I am highly avoidant (even at that moment, had I previously looked forward to it), I begin to experience a kind of draining sensation. My heartbeat and respiration slow down. I become less responsive. I sweat less. In the more extreme circumstances, my torpidity exceeds that of what you might expect someone on a hefty dose of chlorpromazine to manifest. Time seems to fly by, while I experience the sensation of being covered with a heavy blanket. I can be completely ennervated. As I stop pushing myself to do whatever it is, things return to normal. I seem to recover rapidly enough, though if I keep pushing myself to do something I am just not in the mood for tonight it might take a couple of hours to stop feeling so draggy. My appetite might be nil for about twelve hours.
I'm usually calm, though not frozen, in situations of actual physical danger, with the usual speedy responses expected of anyone else. My startle reflex is fine. My physiological psych books had nothing on this. I'm not drooling or tearing up during this, so it doesn't seem as clear as sympathetic versus parasympathetic. This isn't distressing so much as it is annoying.
I'm not lacking any physiological response to fear, so let's not go reaching for the PCL-R just yet. My GP's response was a somewhat longer version of "I've never heard of that, but I wouldn't worry about it," so, I hoped someone here might have heard of it.
I have a mostly backwards response to things which I do not want to do. Rather than shaking, sweating, and other signs like increased pulse, I seem to grow apathetic, even lethargic in some instances. It doesn't feel like "fear," though.
If it something of which I am mildly avoidant, I become less and less interested in whatever the perceived rewards and benefits might be as I goad myself nearer to it. For example, I am not a big fan of heights (well, falling, really); if a few thousand dollars were taped to the top of something, and I had only a sketchy ladder to get to it, at the second step I would begin to question the wisdom of doing this and by the fifth step I probably would have renounced the need for money entirely. I come back down the ladder and I'm fine again.
If it is something of which I am highly avoidant (even at that moment, had I previously looked forward to it), I begin to experience a kind of draining sensation. My heartbeat and respiration slow down. I become less responsive. I sweat less. In the more extreme circumstances, my torpidity exceeds that of what you might expect someone on a hefty dose of chlorpromazine to manifest. Time seems to fly by, while I experience the sensation of being covered with a heavy blanket. I can be completely ennervated. As I stop pushing myself to do whatever it is, things return to normal. I seem to recover rapidly enough, though if I keep pushing myself to do something I am just not in the mood for tonight it might take a couple of hours to stop feeling so draggy. My appetite might be nil for about twelve hours.
I'm usually calm, though not frozen, in situations of actual physical danger, with the usual speedy responses expected of anyone else. My startle reflex is fine. My physiological psych books had nothing on this. I'm not drooling or tearing up during this, so it doesn't seem as clear as sympathetic versus parasympathetic. This isn't distressing so much as it is annoying.
I'm not lacking any physiological response to fear, so let's not go reaching for the PCL-R just yet. My GP's response was a somewhat longer version of "I've never heard of that, but I wouldn't worry about it," so, I hoped someone here might have heard of it.
Best answer: I don't have a lot of reaction-inducing drama in my life anymore, but this was definitely my default response when I was younger. When engaged in a fight with my boyfriend, or when I realized I had made some sort of major school/work/social boner, I would almost be able to fall asleep right in the midst of the action. That heavy, draining sensation describes it exactly.
The only time it still happens to me is during unpleasant turbulence on air flights. Gives me the nods something fierce.
I put it down to an interesting interpretation of the "flight" mechanism of fight/flight.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:07 PM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
The only time it still happens to me is during unpleasant turbulence on air flights. Gives me the nods something fierce.
I put it down to an interesting interpretation of the "flight" mechanism of fight/flight.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:07 PM on September 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: No, this is ennervation — pure limpness, rather than the stiffness associated with catatonia. It feels a bit like sleep paralysis.
Uhh, embarrassingly, my recent attempt to go to a party, after I had slowly laid out clothes for the event, though I didn't feel like I had the energy for attending it, ended up with me sprawled out on the bed like a marionette with the strings cut after I tried to force myself to go, since I had missed the last event. It was particularly bad, probably because I kept at it with the "you will be missed if you don't go" stuff, and I ended up stuck for a couple of hours.
posted by adipocere at 5:15 PM on September 22, 2009
Uhh, embarrassingly, my recent attempt to go to a party, after I had slowly laid out clothes for the event, though I didn't feel like I had the energy for attending it, ended up with me sprawled out on the bed like a marionette with the strings cut after I tried to force myself to go, since I had missed the last event. It was particularly bad, probably because I kept at it with the "you will be missed if you don't go" stuff, and I ended up stuck for a couple of hours.
posted by adipocere at 5:15 PM on September 22, 2009
Sorry to keep stabbing at this, but another thought is that it could be an "absence seizure." Fear can be a component of epileptic seizures, so perhaps it's a chicken or the egg situation.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 5:45 PM on September 22, 2009
posted by The Light Fantastic at 5:45 PM on September 22, 2009
Do you feel weak at the knees when this happens? See cataplexy, which can be associated with a fear response.
posted by Wordwoman at 5:47 PM on September 22, 2009
posted by Wordwoman at 5:47 PM on September 22, 2009
Response by poster: I ruled out cataplexy early on. Other strong emotions do not seem to provoke it, only things I'm avoiding. Also, I had the impression cataplexy was quite sudden, whereas I can struggle in the quicksand for quite some time, feeling weaker and weaker the longer I keep at it. So, the results look like cataplexy, but the triggers and speed of onset do not.
But it sounds like I am not the only person who has that sort of response, so I am guessing it's just a quirky, somewhat irritating variation in human response.
posted by adipocere at 6:44 PM on September 22, 2009
But it sounds like I am not the only person who has that sort of response, so I am guessing it's just a quirky, somewhat irritating variation in human response.
posted by adipocere at 6:44 PM on September 22, 2009
You may be having a response of your parasympathetic nervous system, rather than the sympathetic system. Sympathetic = classic fight or flight. Para = rest and digest, usually. However, fainting is a parasympathetic response-- sudden drop in blood pressure and heart rate.
Usually, parasympathetic responses to stress only happen in extreme circumstances: when there's no chance to fight back or escape injury, it's best not to keep heart fast and BP high. Blood loss will be worse that way. Parasympathetic responses often induce dissociative states: feelings of numbness, like you are "watching a movie." They are heavily opioid, which explains the distancing and calm.
posted by Maias at 6:54 PM on September 22, 2009
Usually, parasympathetic responses to stress only happen in extreme circumstances: when there's no chance to fight back or escape injury, it's best not to keep heart fast and BP high. Blood loss will be worse that way. Parasympathetic responses often induce dissociative states: feelings of numbness, like you are "watching a movie." They are heavily opioid, which explains the distancing and calm.
posted by Maias at 6:54 PM on September 22, 2009
Oh, and the two systems work in opposition to each other, so most of their responses are the exact opposite. There are some exceptions, mostly around sexual activity.
posted by Maias at 6:56 PM on September 22, 2009
posted by Maias at 6:56 PM on September 22, 2009
Best answer: There was a period of time when I had similar reactions to fear/anxiety-provoking situations. I don't have this so much anymore, and in my case, I think it was related to depression. I remember sitting in a job interview conversing normally, but feeling so still and dead inside, like I could just fall asleep. Driving home from the interview, two freeway lanes narrowed to one, and I came quite close to colliding with a big rig. I slammed the brakes, the seat belt locked, all my stuff flew forward in the car. The truck missed me and I noticed how freakishly calm and detached I felt. My heart wasn't even pounding.
At that point in my life I had been struggling with severe untreated depression. After starting medication for both depression and anxiety, I do experience more traditional symptoms of anxiety and fear. It's weird, because in some ways I think the robotic calm served me better than getting all worked-up and nervous (although I don't miss constantly feeling like life is an unmitigated crap-pile of unrelenting darkness, so I guess the occasional sweaty palms are an okay tradeoff).
posted by asynchronous at 10:36 PM on September 22, 2009
At that point in my life I had been struggling with severe untreated depression. After starting medication for both depression and anxiety, I do experience more traditional symptoms of anxiety and fear. It's weird, because in some ways I think the robotic calm served me better than getting all worked-up and nervous (although I don't miss constantly feeling like life is an unmitigated crap-pile of unrelenting darkness, so I guess the occasional sweaty palms are an okay tradeoff).
posted by asynchronous at 10:36 PM on September 22, 2009
Asynchronous- My experiences match yours- I think the depression trains us to try and avoid anything that is stimulating because it will overpower us.
adipocere- the first thing, that's just self-rationalization. You know you are a logical person, so you know you can't scare yourself into getting onto the ladder. So, you convince yourself that you don't want to do that thing.
As for the second thing, the parasympathetic response makes the most sense. That has happened to me as well. It doesn't seem wrong however. The anxious, sweatty, wigging out fight or flight thing is supposed to be for when the tiger is chasing you, not when you have to negotiate a car purchase. I'd call your response more normal than that. If your reactions to things are still the right speed, maybe you can just work with it and when you feel that feeling, be able to recognize whether you really are doing something you should be. If you are, embrace the feeling as some sort of clarity.
posted by gjc at 5:17 AM on September 23, 2009
adipocere- the first thing, that's just self-rationalization. You know you are a logical person, so you know you can't scare yourself into getting onto the ladder. So, you convince yourself that you don't want to do that thing.
As for the second thing, the parasympathetic response makes the most sense. That has happened to me as well. It doesn't seem wrong however. The anxious, sweatty, wigging out fight or flight thing is supposed to be for when the tiger is chasing you, not when you have to negotiate a car purchase. I'd call your response more normal than that. If your reactions to things are still the right speed, maybe you can just work with it and when you feel that feeling, be able to recognize whether you really are doing something you should be. If you are, embrace the feeling as some sort of clarity.
posted by gjc at 5:17 AM on September 23, 2009
Best answer: This!
Yes, this is how I respond to some forms of anxiety also...
also seconding the depression.
For reference, benzodiazapines snap me out of it, and they are a nervous system relaxant (and work on 'normal' anxiety).
My theories consist of, a primitive part of our brain starts to respond to a number of situations as potential danger. Ie, if you really think you need to go find food in that place you saw lions/predators recently, then part of your brain is going to overide and say, screw that, lets just ramp down til the forebrain decides to do something 'less scary'. And the more worried about say, being 'late' the more the danger signal.
Standard anxiety techniques do seem to work, to some extent.
I've had to decide on a cut-off point, where if I'm still trying to force myself to say, work, and it's past 6, but I haven't done any work for the last hour, then I'm unlikely to manage to do any from now on, so I need to just pack up and go.
Try ringing and talking to a friend or pleasant family. Not even about the thing you are stuck about, it just might reassure you enough to lose the danger response.
posted by Elysum at 5:53 PM on September 23, 2009
Yes, this is how I respond to some forms of anxiety also...
also seconding the depression.
For reference, benzodiazapines snap me out of it, and they are a nervous system relaxant (and work on 'normal' anxiety).
My theories consist of, a primitive part of our brain starts to respond to a number of situations as potential danger. Ie, if you really think you need to go find food in that place you saw lions/predators recently, then part of your brain is going to overide and say, screw that, lets just ramp down til the forebrain decides to do something 'less scary'. And the more worried about say, being 'late' the more the danger signal.
Standard anxiety techniques do seem to work, to some extent.
I've had to decide on a cut-off point, where if I'm still trying to force myself to say, work, and it's past 6, but I haven't done any work for the last hour, then I'm unlikely to manage to do any from now on, so I need to just pack up and go.
Try ringing and talking to a friend or pleasant family. Not even about the thing you are stuck about, it just might reassure you enough to lose the danger response.
posted by Elysum at 5:53 PM on September 23, 2009
I just realised the question is partly about the terminology - ie can you really call it anxiety, if it doesn't 'feel' like it, but has the same debilitating effects?
I have that frustration, and keep hoping there is some kind of more accurate term for that emotional state. Surely something in german?
But I'm more comfortable now with using 'anxiety' - it's just how I display anxiety often. Of course, the major block was admitting that I get 'anxiety' when I had self-image of someone who just doesn't get anxious.
I just had to suck it up, and give it up.
posted by Elysum at 9:39 PM on September 23, 2009
I have that frustration, and keep hoping there is some kind of more accurate term for that emotional state. Surely something in german?
But I'm more comfortable now with using 'anxiety' - it's just how I display anxiety often. Of course, the major block was admitting that I get 'anxiety' when I had self-image of someone who just doesn't get anxious.
I just had to suck it up, and give it up.
posted by Elysum at 9:39 PM on September 23, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 4:59 PM on September 22, 2009