What to do with a threat
September 20, 2009 10:57 AM Subscribe
What legal/law enforcement options do I have to protect myself against someone who is threatening me with bodily harm?
I was engaged in a discussion over facebook that got very heated (I'm aware how this sounds). I'll readily admit that I did more to provoke this person than he did to provoke me. One thing led to another until he threatened to "beat [my] ass at one point in time." He then went into considerable detail about why this should happen and what I'd done to deserve it.
This acquaintance has mutual friends. He can find out where I have classes. Moreover, he knows where I live and where I meet for some of the extracurricular activities I do. He's also been arrested for assault before. As a result, I am seriously concerned he may carry out his threats.
1. If this were to actually happen, what can I do to defuse the situation and protect myself?
2. What kind of preemptive action can I take to deter him from confronting me? I have already informed him that I will file charges if he were to hurt me, but given my lack of legal expertise, that sounds like an empty threat. For the lawyers and law majors here, can you tell me what that process looks like so my threat has more credibility? What about law enforcement resources?
I was engaged in a discussion over facebook that got very heated (I'm aware how this sounds). I'll readily admit that I did more to provoke this person than he did to provoke me. One thing led to another until he threatened to "beat [my] ass at one point in time." He then went into considerable detail about why this should happen and what I'd done to deserve it.
This acquaintance has mutual friends. He can find out where I have classes. Moreover, he knows where I live and where I meet for some of the extracurricular activities I do. He's also been arrested for assault before. As a result, I am seriously concerned he may carry out his threats.
1. If this were to actually happen, what can I do to defuse the situation and protect myself?
2. What kind of preemptive action can I take to deter him from confronting me? I have already informed him that I will file charges if he were to hurt me, but given my lack of legal expertise, that sounds like an empty threat. For the lawyers and law majors here, can you tell me what that process looks like so my threat has more credibility? What about law enforcement resources?
also look at these
however, since you know the person it's not really an anonymous online stalker. why not treat it as if this argument happened face to face, rather than online. do you feel that the threat was real and there is a credible possibility of bodily harm? then call the police. They'll probably just record the incident, which is important if you are going to need to take further legal action later on.
posted by Think_Long at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2009
however, since you know the person it's not really an anonymous online stalker. why not treat it as if this argument happened face to face, rather than online. do you feel that the threat was real and there is a credible possibility of bodily harm? then call the police. They'll probably just record the incident, which is important if you are going to need to take further legal action later on.
posted by Think_Long at 11:15 AM on September 20, 2009
Make sure you preserve a record of the written threat.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:20 AM on September 20, 2009
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:20 AM on September 20, 2009
You have every legal right to be a dick. He has every legal right to be a dick right back, or to just stop the conversation.
He does not have the right to threaten you with physical violence.
If you genuinely fear for your safety, talk with the police. The cops will look down on you for being a weirdo, but they look down on anyone who isn't a cop for being a weirdo... they will probably have some good advice, tho. Talk to a lawyer if they don't.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:28 AM on September 20, 2009
He does not have the right to threaten you with physical violence.
If you genuinely fear for your safety, talk with the police. The cops will look down on you for being a weirdo, but they look down on anyone who isn't a cop for being a weirdo... they will probably have some good advice, tho. Talk to a lawyer if they don't.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:28 AM on September 20, 2009
Best answer: You have written transcript of the conversation and the threat? Then you have a definite advantage.
First of all, it's unlikely this person is going to stalk you and attempt to physically assault you at some point in the future. So don't worry about it.
If he does contact you again, just copy the conversation into an email, state that the threat he made is unacceptable, and that if he contacts you again you will contact campus security or the police.
In the meantime, take the transcript to campus police or to the local police station and ask a cop for advice about what to do.
You can also ask your campus ombudsman for help, too.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:41 AM on September 20, 2009
First of all, it's unlikely this person is going to stalk you and attempt to physically assault you at some point in the future. So don't worry about it.
If he does contact you again, just copy the conversation into an email, state that the threat he made is unacceptable, and that if he contacts you again you will contact campus security or the police.
In the meantime, take the transcript to campus police or to the local police station and ask a cop for advice about what to do.
You can also ask your campus ombudsman for help, too.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:41 AM on September 20, 2009
I was engaged in a discussion over facebook that got very heated (I'm aware how this sounds). I'll readily admit that I did more to provoke this person than he did to provoke me.
1. If this were to actually happen, what can I do to defuse the situation and protect myself?
How about you diffuse the situation, before anything happens, with a nice, old fashioned apology? You may have a right to be a dick, but back in the olden days before everyone had a lawyer on speed dial, we used to apologize to folks we didn't want to throw down with. Try it.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:47 AM on September 20, 2009 [11 favorites]
1. If this were to actually happen, what can I do to defuse the situation and protect myself?
How about you diffuse the situation, before anything happens, with a nice, old fashioned apology? You may have a right to be a dick, but back in the olden days before everyone had a lawyer on speed dial, we used to apologize to folks we didn't want to throw down with. Try it.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:47 AM on September 20, 2009 [11 favorites]
Your #2 sounds like you want to go back up to him (IRL or on Facebook) and give a "credible" "threat" that doesn't sound like an "empty threat." He was wrong to threaten you, but you admit that you provoked him. I really recommend not contacting him in any way.
If you are poking a mean dog with a stick, and you are worried about him biting you, stop poking him with a stick.
posted by Houstonian at 11:48 AM on September 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you are poking a mean dog with a stick, and you are worried about him biting you, stop poking him with a stick.
posted by Houstonian at 11:48 AM on September 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This question is partially resolved -- I contacted campus police and sent them a transcript of what happened. They have asked the other person to keep their distance.
I would appreciate advice on what legal recourse I can take in case this is not resolved at this point. What would a restraining order require? Yes, I am "threatening" him, but not with physical harm. I want him to understand what the consequences will be for him in order to deter him from actually confronting me.
I take full responsibility for being a dick. Any snarky remarks made here in my direction are well deserved and will be taken to heart. He has made it clear, however, that apologies will not repair the situation.
Thank you for the answers :).
posted by ahrara_ at 12:08 PM on September 20, 2009
I would appreciate advice on what legal recourse I can take in case this is not resolved at this point. What would a restraining order require? Yes, I am "threatening" him, but not with physical harm. I want him to understand what the consequences will be for him in order to deter him from actually confronting me.
I take full responsibility for being a dick. Any snarky remarks made here in my direction are well deserved and will be taken to heart. He has made it clear, however, that apologies will not repair the situation.
Thank you for the answers :).
posted by ahrara_ at 12:08 PM on September 20, 2009
A restraining order (peace bond, order of protection, &c.) is a legal injunction issued by a state court. The only part the police play is in actually enforcing the order.
A search of askme for restraining order comes up with numerous posts on the issue, all of which have helpful resources.
Good luck!
posted by elizardbits at 12:30 PM on September 20, 2009
A search of askme for restraining order comes up with numerous posts on the issue, all of which have helpful resources.
Good luck!
posted by elizardbits at 12:30 PM on September 20, 2009
You're asking for legal advice. You also did not list where you live, so even those who might be able to answer your question somewhat can't help without that info.
Your college likely has student legal services where you can get a consult with an actual attorney. If you really think this guy will come after you, talk to them about what you would need for a restraining order.
Reminder: people on Facebook are real people who know your real name and location so it's best not to deliberately provoke them, regardless of whether the law is on your side or not.
posted by ishotjr at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2009
Your college likely has student legal services where you can get a consult with an actual attorney. If you really think this guy will come after you, talk to them about what you would need for a restraining order.
Reminder: people on Facebook are real people who know your real name and location so it's best not to deliberately provoke them, regardless of whether the law is on your side or not.
posted by ishotjr at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2009
From what I can gather, you are on the same campus?
Consider for a second the common advice: do not pee in the bathtub nor poop where you eat.
This is where you live. If you want it to be the kind of place you want to live, consider your actions in light of what you are doing to yourself. You are ruining your environment with your personality. Is that the kind of life you want to live?
There are three parts to this... past, present and future.
Past: You have made an enemy. Enemies are something you should generally avoid making. Sometimes, it's unavoidable, but that's the exception. In your own interests, getting rid of this person as an enemy would be wise. There may be a time when the sanctions he faces don't apply and he acts on his feelings toward you. Often, people are buried afterwards. I won't waste time directing you to the internet to research this.
Were it me, I'd make a point of forgiving him his response to you, and a bigger point of making amends to him for your behavior. If you hope to achieve grown up status, you'll need to learn to get past things, forgive, forget, repair, and befriend. No good is served by maintaining an enemy. It takes energy and is dangerous. Make it a project to repair this bad situation. If you are successful, great. If not, keep trying. Practice in this area isn't wasted. When you marry or couple, it will come in handy, too.
Present: This is where you live. Take a Sharpie and mark on the back of your wrist "I must strive to quit being an asshole. I will overcome my childish ways." When your ego resists this command, consult the back of your hand or expect to eventually see the front of someone else's. Unless you hire 24/7 protection, police usually respond AFTER an incident.
Future: Make this the place you want to live by acting like you want people to act. If you actually desire to have people act like assholes, please publish your zip code so we can avoid it. Big chunks of the future are under your control. Make it the future you want. Improve the species. Show your friends, spouses, kids, neighbors, and enemies how good people act.
FWIW, Abe Lincoln was an asshole in his youth. Judgment and culture take time to grow. He got lucky and lived into his adulthood. Some people don't. You aren't alone, and I was the same way until I was 54! (Now I am perfect.) J
posted by FauxScot at 12:43 PM on September 20, 2009 [5 favorites]
Consider for a second the common advice: do not pee in the bathtub nor poop where you eat.
This is where you live. If you want it to be the kind of place you want to live, consider your actions in light of what you are doing to yourself. You are ruining your environment with your personality. Is that the kind of life you want to live?
There are three parts to this... past, present and future.
Past: You have made an enemy. Enemies are something you should generally avoid making. Sometimes, it's unavoidable, but that's the exception. In your own interests, getting rid of this person as an enemy would be wise. There may be a time when the sanctions he faces don't apply and he acts on his feelings toward you. Often, people are buried afterwards. I won't waste time directing you to the internet to research this.
Were it me, I'd make a point of forgiving him his response to you, and a bigger point of making amends to him for your behavior. If you hope to achieve grown up status, you'll need to learn to get past things, forgive, forget, repair, and befriend. No good is served by maintaining an enemy. It takes energy and is dangerous. Make it a project to repair this bad situation. If you are successful, great. If not, keep trying. Practice in this area isn't wasted. When you marry or couple, it will come in handy, too.
Present: This is where you live. Take a Sharpie and mark on the back of your wrist "I must strive to quit being an asshole. I will overcome my childish ways." When your ego resists this command, consult the back of your hand or expect to eventually see the front of someone else's. Unless you hire 24/7 protection, police usually respond AFTER an incident.
Future: Make this the place you want to live by acting like you want people to act. If you actually desire to have people act like assholes, please publish your zip code so we can avoid it. Big chunks of the future are under your control. Make it the future you want. Improve the species. Show your friends, spouses, kids, neighbors, and enemies how good people act.
FWIW, Abe Lincoln was an asshole in his youth. Judgment and culture take time to grow. He got lucky and lived into his adulthood. Some people don't. You aren't alone, and I was the same way until I was 54! (Now I am perfect.) J
posted by FauxScot at 12:43 PM on September 20, 2009 [5 favorites]
When you sent the "transcript" was it in full, or just the threats on his part?
I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but seeing as how rampant internet aggression is because you're not really confronting anyone face-to-face, even over Facebook where no one's actually anonymous: perhaps an ass whoopin' would serve some good here. Assuming this happened outside of private messages, it doesn't seem fair to the person you were publically harassing in front of all of your mutual friends (as well as in front of whoever's wall it was on's friends, and furthermore depending on their privacy settings the entire world) to be verbally pummeled just so you can go to authorities and complain when they throw what is usually a blanket threat out there in hopes that you'll stop.
It sounds as if you knew he had been arrested for violence before starting this and that didn't stop you from opening your mouth, so I'm not sure why you think you deserve any sympathy and I don't blame the other guy for not accepting an apology. Like Houstonian said above, "If you are poking a mean dog with a stick, and you are worried about him biting you, stop poking him with a stick."
This guy has anger issues and if you knew this beforehand, shame on you. He needs help and you're just throwing more fuel onto the fire. Imagine his rage now that you've done all this and he's left with a notice from campus police warning him against going to certain places where you might be because of your own need to act big. I've known a lot of people with anger issues and the hugest problem they have is that they try to hold their fists from the perpetrator but end up hurting someone, somehow, much closer in a knee-jerk reaction caused by something much more minor. A simply "I'm sorry," isn't going to cut it. The guy could be a legitimate asshole, but I'm sure after his arrest he, or at least the people that loved him, are trying at some length to help him with this and who knows how far you just pushed those efforts back.
I'm sorry for getting on my soapbox a bit but as a sister to a special needs teenager who has a continual struggle with this, it just really gets under my skin to see this happen all too often, regardless of mental or social capacity.
So unless they were first threatening someone else undeservedly or this was done over your inbox -- which in both cases you shouldn't have stooped and just gone to someone about his behavior in the first place -- this just seems ridiculous and the very reason why the internet sucks and why bullies continue to be bullies in the first place.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:20 PM on September 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'll probably get a lot of flack for this but seeing as how rampant internet aggression is because you're not really confronting anyone face-to-face, even over Facebook where no one's actually anonymous: perhaps an ass whoopin' would serve some good here. Assuming this happened outside of private messages, it doesn't seem fair to the person you were publically harassing in front of all of your mutual friends (as well as in front of whoever's wall it was on's friends, and furthermore depending on their privacy settings the entire world) to be verbally pummeled just so you can go to authorities and complain when they throw what is usually a blanket threat out there in hopes that you'll stop.
It sounds as if you knew he had been arrested for violence before starting this and that didn't stop you from opening your mouth, so I'm not sure why you think you deserve any sympathy and I don't blame the other guy for not accepting an apology. Like Houstonian said above, "If you are poking a mean dog with a stick, and you are worried about him biting you, stop poking him with a stick."
This guy has anger issues and if you knew this beforehand, shame on you. He needs help and you're just throwing more fuel onto the fire. Imagine his rage now that you've done all this and he's left with a notice from campus police warning him against going to certain places where you might be because of your own need to act big. I've known a lot of people with anger issues and the hugest problem they have is that they try to hold their fists from the perpetrator but end up hurting someone, somehow, much closer in a knee-jerk reaction caused by something much more minor. A simply "I'm sorry," isn't going to cut it. The guy could be a legitimate asshole, but I'm sure after his arrest he, or at least the people that loved him, are trying at some length to help him with this and who knows how far you just pushed those efforts back.
I'm sorry for getting on my soapbox a bit but as a sister to a special needs teenager who has a continual struggle with this, it just really gets under my skin to see this happen all too often, regardless of mental or social capacity.
So unless they were first threatening someone else undeservedly or this was done over your inbox -- which in both cases you shouldn't have stooped and just gone to someone about his behavior in the first place -- this just seems ridiculous and the very reason why the internet sucks and why bullies continue to be bullies in the first place.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:20 PM on September 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
*simply = simple.
And on post, FauxScot nails it.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:21 PM on September 20, 2009
And on post, FauxScot nails it.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:21 PM on September 20, 2009
I'm not a lawyer, but I have been privy to a couple of cases in which people tried to get restraining orders (no...not against me!). Getting a restraining order - at least in California, where I live, can be difficult. You may be able to get a temporary restraining order against this guy by going back down to the campus police and asking them for a form - but I really advise against it. Here's why:
What you have done was what was called in my day and age a "dick move." You picked a fight where it was safe, pissed someone off to the extent that they threatened to kick your ass, and then ran to the cops. This is still a really unpopular thing to do in many circles even in this litigious age. The campus cops may take up your cause, but you may be hard pressed to find a lot of people who are really sympathetic to your plight - and even less so if you go so far as to file a restraining order with nothing but a vague threat to back it up.
My recommendation. Tone down the rhetoric - stop viewing online conversations as somehow "safe" especially when you know the person you are arguing with. Avoid the guy and his friends, and give it some time to die down. If he confronts you, apologize again, tell him explicitly that you don't want to fight (and ONLY THAT), and hightail it the hell out of there. Unless he's an absolute psycho, he will not attack you if you refuse to escalate the issue. You may need to listen to him yell at you - do NOT yell back. If the opportunity presents itself, shake his hand and go home.
A few things to keep in mind - it's pretty easy for a guy to get charged with assault in this day and age - maybe he popped someone in the eye, maybe he pushed him, maybe it was something even more ephemeral than that. This doesn't mean the guy is dangerous and means to cause you great bodily harm. Also, learn to accept the consequences of your actions without running to the authorities unless it's absolutely necessary - you will be a LOT more popular.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
What you have done was what was called in my day and age a "dick move." You picked a fight where it was safe, pissed someone off to the extent that they threatened to kick your ass, and then ran to the cops. This is still a really unpopular thing to do in many circles even in this litigious age. The campus cops may take up your cause, but you may be hard pressed to find a lot of people who are really sympathetic to your plight - and even less so if you go so far as to file a restraining order with nothing but a vague threat to back it up.
My recommendation. Tone down the rhetoric - stop viewing online conversations as somehow "safe" especially when you know the person you are arguing with. Avoid the guy and his friends, and give it some time to die down. If he confronts you, apologize again, tell him explicitly that you don't want to fight (and ONLY THAT), and hightail it the hell out of there. Unless he's an absolute psycho, he will not attack you if you refuse to escalate the issue. You may need to listen to him yell at you - do NOT yell back. If the opportunity presents itself, shake his hand and go home.
A few things to keep in mind - it's pretty easy for a guy to get charged with assault in this day and age - maybe he popped someone in the eye, maybe he pushed him, maybe it was something even more ephemeral than that. This doesn't mean the guy is dangerous and means to cause you great bodily harm. Also, learn to accept the consequences of your actions without running to the authorities unless it's absolutely necessary - you will be a LOT more popular.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
I hate to post a third time but after reading your previous AskMe, this makes all too much sense. If you didn't take the advice people gave you to seek help then, you need to now. Use the confidence you gain from that to be the bigger person and apologize to this guy down the road if you're not willing to do it now. If you're already seeking help, you need to bring this up to your counselor. If you're not, you need to bring it up to someone and both of you need to sit down and work out what's going on with your egos individually.
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2009
posted by june made him a gemini at 1:32 PM on September 20, 2009
What would a restraining order require?
This completely depends on where you are. But, I think these are basic steps:
0. If you are in immediate danger (and you should be, if you are doing this), first call 911.
1. You swear that you are in imminent danger. You complete a petition, which includes your harasser's name, address, and date of birth. You complete and sign an affidavit, detailing all the times he has harassed you, including dates, times, and all relevant information.
2. If the judge agrees, he grants a temporary protection order (about 2 weeks). The harasser is notified by the police about your petition, and that he must go to court.
3. You both go to court. You present your evidence. He presents his evidence.
4. If you win, a restraining order is placed against him for a period of time (a year or two). If you lose, the reasons why you lost is placed in the court record.
Having read that, do you believe you are in imminent danger -- warranting a 911 call? Do you feel comfortable going before a judge and swearing to that fact, and providing him with the full transcripts of everything that you both said to each other? Do you believe an impartial judge will find that you have been harassed?
If you are looking for legal jargon so that you can scare him, you are contacting him. If you continued (and continue) to provoke him, this whole thing might turn on you. At least from my memories of college, you've already hurt yourself socially by turning in Facebook transcripts to the campus police (although times may have changed). If he's a real threat to you, go to the police (not campus police) right now and tell them you are in imminent danger. If he's not a real threat to you, you should probably let it go.
posted by Houstonian at 2:58 PM on September 20, 2009
This completely depends on where you are. But, I think these are basic steps:
0. If you are in immediate danger (and you should be, if you are doing this), first call 911.
1. You swear that you are in imminent danger. You complete a petition, which includes your harasser's name, address, and date of birth. You complete and sign an affidavit, detailing all the times he has harassed you, including dates, times, and all relevant information.
2. If the judge agrees, he grants a temporary protection order (about 2 weeks). The harasser is notified by the police about your petition, and that he must go to court.
3. You both go to court. You present your evidence. He presents his evidence.
4. If you win, a restraining order is placed against him for a period of time (a year or two). If you lose, the reasons why you lost is placed in the court record.
Having read that, do you believe you are in imminent danger -- warranting a 911 call? Do you feel comfortable going before a judge and swearing to that fact, and providing him with the full transcripts of everything that you both said to each other? Do you believe an impartial judge will find that you have been harassed?
If you are looking for legal jargon so that you can scare him, you are contacting him. If you continued (and continue) to provoke him, this whole thing might turn on you. At least from my memories of college, you've already hurt yourself socially by turning in Facebook transcripts to the campus police (although times may have changed). If he's a real threat to you, go to the police (not campus police) right now and tell them you are in imminent danger. If he's not a real threat to you, you should probably let it go.
posted by Houstonian at 2:58 PM on September 20, 2009
Response by poster: The discussion was over a political issue regarding which we are both very passionate about and are personally involved with. I am keen on current events and regularly have hotly contested and sometimes very heated debates with friends and acquaintances over email, through facebook, and in person. This is the first time I have ever been threatened with bodily harm for it, and never in as much detail.
For those of you who have come to the conclusion from a past askmefi post regarding my personal issues that I am some kind of narcissistic real life troll out to provocate people with short tempers and serious anger issues, please explain to me how the hell "I will beat you to a bloody pulp until your fucking mouth bleeds" is a proportionate and reasonable response to "you're fucking psuedointellectual"? He who has not confronted someone over an intellectual disagreement and said things they regret can cast the first stone.
I take responsibility for the aggressive tone I used. I get passionate about what I believe in, and unfortunately I pass judgment on people when I feel like they can't defend views they advocate strongly. It was also a dick move to press on in the debate when it was clear that we were both boiling over. Excuse me if I don't see how it justifies that I get physically assaulted.
posted by ahrara_ at 4:12 PM on September 20, 2009
For those of you who have come to the conclusion from a past askmefi post regarding my personal issues that I am some kind of narcissistic real life troll out to provocate people with short tempers and serious anger issues, please explain to me how the hell "I will beat you to a bloody pulp until your fucking mouth bleeds" is a proportionate and reasonable response to "you're fucking psuedointellectual"? He who has not confronted someone over an intellectual disagreement and said things they regret can cast the first stone.
I take responsibility for the aggressive tone I used. I get passionate about what I believe in, and unfortunately I pass judgment on people when I feel like they can't defend views they advocate strongly. It was also a dick move to press on in the debate when it was clear that we were both boiling over. Excuse me if I don't see how it justifies that I get physically assaulted.
posted by ahrara_ at 4:12 PM on September 20, 2009
IANAL, but I work in an agency that provides services to crime victims.
If stalking behavior develops, contact your local domestic violence shelter. They can get you in touch with people who can help with a restraining order and/or other legal action. Stalking behavior includes things like him showing up in places you go (and he didn't do this before), harassing phone calls, notes left on your car, etc.
In the meantime, break off ALL contact. Don't contact him through Facebook, don't talk about him on Facebook, ALL contact. This includes contacting him to apologize, smooth it over, etc. If this situation does escalate and you have made subsequent contact, the police will look somewhat askance at your expressions of fear. The campus police can also be a resource for getting services if he starts stalking you.
posted by eleslie at 4:49 PM on September 20, 2009
If stalking behavior develops, contact your local domestic violence shelter. They can get you in touch with people who can help with a restraining order and/or other legal action. Stalking behavior includes things like him showing up in places you go (and he didn't do this before), harassing phone calls, notes left on your car, etc.
In the meantime, break off ALL contact. Don't contact him through Facebook, don't talk about him on Facebook, ALL contact. This includes contacting him to apologize, smooth it over, etc. If this situation does escalate and you have made subsequent contact, the police will look somewhat askance at your expressions of fear. The campus police can also be a resource for getting services if he starts stalking you.
posted by eleslie at 4:49 PM on September 20, 2009
Mod note: comment removed - DO NOT drag fights in here from other parts of the site.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:45 AM on October 1, 2009
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:45 AM on October 1, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Don't suppose it needs to be said, but in the future, think about where these sorts of discussions are going.
posted by lakeroon at 11:12 AM on September 20, 2009