Can I get some advice on a computer filter for a 14 yo boy?
December 21, 2004 10:50 AM Subscribe
Parental Filter Software: My 14 year old boy is receiving a computer for Christmas. It will be in his room, so I would definitely like to put some sort of parental filter software on it.
Can anyone comment on these programs? Specifically, are they compatible with Firefox and Trillian Chat? Many of them tout that they filter newsgroups. Does this mean that they block newsgroup access or do they filter objectional content in the newsreader?
Can anyone comment on these programs? Specifically, are they compatible with Firefox and Trillian Chat? Many of them tout that they filter newsgroups. Does this mean that they block newsgroup access or do they filter objectional content in the newsreader?
I don't like parental controls, with the exception of Usenet, so I will help you. Please block Usenet access at the router level and password protect that. It probably can be broken with some effort, but if he can do that then he can see whatever the Internet has to offer. In the mean time he can use google groups.
Why, might you ask, am I for blocking usenet binaries? Because he's 14 and he'll be looking at porn. This is okay, but Usenet porn has just enough stuff that falls very much into the "sick shit" category, I say keep his budding sexuality in line. I'm talking about stuff that makes me, as hardened as I am, cringe like a schoolgirl. My attitudes would change if porn was kept in porn groups and clearly labeled as "12 Year Old Takes on Bronx Zoo", but until then Usenet is the Wild West, and the unintentional downloading will be high for someone not aquainted with the lingo.
posted by geoff. at 11:19 AM on December 21, 2004
Why, might you ask, am I for blocking usenet binaries? Because he's 14 and he'll be looking at porn. This is okay, but Usenet porn has just enough stuff that falls very much into the "sick shit" category, I say keep his budding sexuality in line. I'm talking about stuff that makes me, as hardened as I am, cringe like a schoolgirl. My attitudes would change if porn was kept in porn groups and clearly labeled as "12 Year Old Takes on Bronx Zoo", but until then Usenet is the Wild West, and the unintentional downloading will be high for someone not aquainted with the lingo.
posted by geoff. at 11:19 AM on December 21, 2004
As someone who used to be a 14 year old boy himself, I can guarantee you that if he has any sort of technical leanings whatsoever, he will get around the parental filters. Pretty much no matter what you do, you're not going to stop it; you're just going to make it a little more inconvenient.
This is one of those things for which a technical solution isn't ideal. Honestly, the only thing that's going to stop him (and even then, it won't do a good job--porn is a strong drive for a 14 year old) is supervision. Random pop-ins from the parents, an open-door policy (which will force masturbation into the bathroom, inconvenient for a 1-bathroom house), and regular log/history checking are pretty much the only way to keep tabs on it.
Just be sure to keep a close eye on chat/IM, give him the "every 15 year old girl you meet online is a 35 year old man" speech, and make sure he's not looking up the puppy-fisting porn.
posted by billybunny at 11:22 AM on December 21, 2004
This is one of those things for which a technical solution isn't ideal. Honestly, the only thing that's going to stop him (and even then, it won't do a good job--porn is a strong drive for a 14 year old) is supervision. Random pop-ins from the parents, an open-door policy (which will force masturbation into the bathroom, inconvenient for a 1-bathroom house), and regular log/history checking are pretty much the only way to keep tabs on it.
Just be sure to keep a close eye on chat/IM, give him the "every 15 year old girl you meet online is a 35 year old man" speech, and make sure he's not looking up the puppy-fisting porn.
posted by billybunny at 11:22 AM on December 21, 2004
When I was 14, I was running my own pirate BBS. 14 year-old's are smart. They're also pretty dumb. You can block port 119 on the router and protect it with a good password, but if the kid has HTTP access, he has enough available to him to keep him permanently locked in his room for the next couple of years. Accept that your 14 year-old son has some seriously strong sexual urges and go from there.
Personally, I'd be more concerned with information -- that is, what is the kid looking at? You could install some back doors or monitoring apps, but that doesn't show you trust your kid very much. If they found out, they'd be deservedly pissed and probably not trust you, certainly not confide in you ever again -- which is a lot worse.
If you're giving your son a computer, you must already trust him. You can't give the kid a computer and then say, "Here you go! But no IRC, no USENET, no bittorrent, no Kazaa, and no bad web sites. Deal?"
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:43 AM on December 21, 2004
Personally, I'd be more concerned with information -- that is, what is the kid looking at? You could install some back doors or monitoring apps, but that doesn't show you trust your kid very much. If they found out, they'd be deservedly pissed and probably not trust you, certainly not confide in you ever again -- which is a lot worse.
If you're giving your son a computer, you must already trust him. You can't give the kid a computer and then say, "Here you go! But no IRC, no USENET, no bittorrent, no Kazaa, and no bad web sites. Deal?"
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:43 AM on December 21, 2004
Yeah, if he's technically proficient, don't put the computer in his room. 'Cause you can basically just forget about effective parental controls in that scenario.
It's also better to put computers in shared rooms because it encourages a bit more social interaction. Get a couple of laptops and a wireless connection. Then if you want to know he's not doing the evil, just look over his shoulder.
And what Geoff said. I don't see much of a point in Usenet.
posted by selfnoise at 11:49 AM on December 21, 2004
It's also better to put computers in shared rooms because it encourages a bit more social interaction. Get a couple of laptops and a wireless connection. Then if you want to know he's not doing the evil, just look over his shoulder.
And what Geoff said. I don't see much of a point in Usenet.
posted by selfnoise at 11:49 AM on December 21, 2004
Let me second billybunny's note that, whatever you do, your child will circumvent it. Period. No question. Better to have a talk, set ground rules, and help him understand that the puppy-fisting porn is probably not inside the mainstream.
I *saw* the puppy-fisting porn (figuratively speaking) when I was 14, and really all it did was revolt me (and my friends; sharing means caring). I didn't have no fancy internet thingy when I was 14, but I did have local BBSs, and they catered to every predilection you might imagine (and some you might not). With all that available, I chose to download fake naked pictures of Counselor Troi and pornographic stories. I have a lot fewer creepy hang-ups than people who were severely restricted from such activity. I'm just sayin'.
To answer your question, though, I've taken a look at both NetNanny and CyberPatrol. NetNanny gives no implementation details, but it seems that CyberPatrol has just recently added support for Firefox, indicating that filtering happens at the application layer. It may not work with "unusual" apps like Trillian and Thunderbird.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:50 AM on December 21, 2004
I *saw* the puppy-fisting porn (figuratively speaking) when I was 14, and really all it did was revolt me (and my friends; sharing means caring). I didn't have no fancy internet thingy when I was 14, but I did have local BBSs, and they catered to every predilection you might imagine (and some you might not). With all that available, I chose to download fake naked pictures of Counselor Troi and pornographic stories. I have a lot fewer creepy hang-ups than people who were severely restricted from such activity. I'm just sayin'.
To answer your question, though, I've taken a look at both NetNanny and CyberPatrol. NetNanny gives no implementation details, but it seems that CyberPatrol has just recently added support for Firefox, indicating that filtering happens at the application layer. It may not work with "unusual" apps like Trillian and Thunderbird.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:50 AM on December 21, 2004
no locks on bedroom doors
establish an understanding that while you respect his privacy, he has to respect your rules
establish acceptable use rules of the laptop
you can at the router level (with some routers) disable internet service for certain time periods (11pm to 7am?)
understand that he is going to look at some things and read some things that will make you cringe, but also understand that strong parenting and open communication mean he will not be changed by it
if you could post a follow up in 6 months, that'd be helpful - i am always curious how these kinds of things turn out - you're question will most likely turn into sage advice for the rest of us
posted by angry jonny at 11:51 AM on December 21, 2004
establish an understanding that while you respect his privacy, he has to respect your rules
establish acceptable use rules of the laptop
you can at the router level (with some routers) disable internet service for certain time periods (11pm to 7am?)
understand that he is going to look at some things and read some things that will make you cringe, but also understand that strong parenting and open communication mean he will not be changed by it
if you could post a follow up in 6 months, that'd be helpful - i am always curious how these kinds of things turn out - you're question will most likely turn into sage advice for the rest of us
posted by angry jonny at 11:51 AM on December 21, 2004
I think billybunny's answer is the only effective one. Have an open dialogue with your kid. You can't protect him from everything, but you can probably keep him fairly safe and un-demented with good parent-son communication and a light dose of surveillance.
Man, if only I'd had the internet when I was 14....
posted by mds35 at 11:57 AM on December 21, 2004
Man, if only I'd had the internet when I was 14....
posted by mds35 at 11:57 AM on December 21, 2004
Err, this should have been said on preview, but angry jonny has some good points, too.
posted by mds35 at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2004
posted by mds35 at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2004
I am 17. I've had a computer in my room since I was 14. Speaking from experience, I can say your son will probably find it very distracting. He will watch lots of porn (he'll be watching porn regardless of what you do, and where the computer is situated). No net-nanny software will stop him from going places you don't want him to. It's all terribly simple to bypass (trust me). So you'll have to accept that fact that he's going to be jacking off every day, probably to explicit porn.
For marks' sake however, you might put the computer somewhere else in the house. I find it difficult much of the time to ignore the computer and get down to work, but I've never been especially motivated to do school work anyway.
You know your son better than I do. If he's studious and attentive now, he'll probably do fine with a computer in his room. If his attention span is as short as mine, he might have some trouble. But I'm pulling an A average now anyway, so it's not that big an issue.
posted by Evstar at 12:01 PM on December 21, 2004
For marks' sake however, you might put the computer somewhere else in the house. I find it difficult much of the time to ignore the computer and get down to work, but I've never been especially motivated to do school work anyway.
You know your son better than I do. If he's studious and attentive now, he'll probably do fine with a computer in his room. If his attention span is as short as mine, he might have some trouble. But I'm pulling an A average now anyway, so it's not that big an issue.
posted by Evstar at 12:01 PM on December 21, 2004
Yep, installing parental blockers is a waste of your time and money. If he wants to see pornography--and he does--he will see it. I have no right (or, frankly, knowledge) to tell you how to raise your kid, but I can definitely say that it's just not feasible to try to shield him from the most brutally efficient pornography-dispersal engine ever designed by the perverted mind of man (that is, the internet). You can get around most filtering software with about five minutes of tinkering and a knowledge of computers that he probably already has, and certainly will have pretty soon.
One thing that I guess you could try would be to give yourself Remote Desktop access to his PC (it's built into XP Pro), and let him know you'll be checking in on him from time to time, and reading his browser history file. That's what we call the panopticon effect. Fear of ubiquitous oversight leads to well-conditioned behavior.
This sort of thing, however, might lead to a bit of animousity -- it certainly did when my friends' parents tried it.
The best protection is still just to make sure he knows what's dangerous and why. Personally, when I was 14, I used the web to find out about all kinds of things that I was curious about, and it was useful, and helped rather than hindered my psychological development (if I do say so myself).
posted by Hildago at 12:04 PM on December 21, 2004
One thing that I guess you could try would be to give yourself Remote Desktop access to his PC (it's built into XP Pro), and let him know you'll be checking in on him from time to time, and reading his browser history file. That's what we call the panopticon effect. Fear of ubiquitous oversight leads to well-conditioned behavior.
This sort of thing, however, might lead to a bit of animousity -- it certainly did when my friends' parents tried it.
The best protection is still just to make sure he knows what's dangerous and why. Personally, when I was 14, I used the web to find out about all kinds of things that I was curious about, and it was useful, and helped rather than hindered my psychological development (if I do say so myself).
posted by Hildago at 12:04 PM on December 21, 2004
I am the experienced mother of teenagers, and I am telling you that that computer needs to be in a public room, period.
I don't much believe in filters, and we don't have them. What we do have is dialog and discussion. Plus my kids always shared cool stuff with me as I was walking by....
If you must put the computer in his room, don't connect it to the internet.
posted by konolia at 12:05 PM on December 21, 2004
I don't much believe in filters, and we don't have them. What we do have is dialog and discussion. Plus my kids always shared cool stuff with me as I was walking by....
If you must put the computer in his room, don't connect it to the internet.
posted by konolia at 12:05 PM on December 21, 2004
Oh, btw, I don't remember the name of it, but there is a service you can get that will email a list of every url he goes to to you. I know about it because our pastor shared about it from the pulpit-for men fighting pornography addictions, it is a way for them to be accountable without totally giving up internet access. If you are interested, email me and I will try to get you the info.
posted by konolia at 12:08 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by konolia at 12:08 PM on December 21, 2004
"If you must put the computer in his room, don't connect it to the internet."
And then you'll have to disable the USB ports and CD-ROM drive, because he will bring home CDs and flash drives from his friends.
(also the parent of teenagers)
posted by rev_crash_davis at 12:11 PM on December 21, 2004
And then you'll have to disable the USB ports and CD-ROM drive, because he will bring home CDs and flash drives from his friends.
(also the parent of teenagers)
posted by rev_crash_davis at 12:11 PM on December 21, 2004
disable internet service for certain time periods (11pm to 7am?)
In other words, prime masturbation time.
I am telling you that that computer needs to be in a public room, period.
That's fine, they'll just go to college being extremely sheltered and wet behind the ears. I'm sure none of the other kids will mock them for that.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:13 PM on December 21, 2004
In other words, prime masturbation time.
I am telling you that that computer needs to be in a public room, period.
That's fine, they'll just go to college being extremely sheltered and wet behind the ears. I'm sure none of the other kids will mock them for that.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:13 PM on December 21, 2004
Civil_Disobedient, I don't know how old you are, but a lot of us *ahem*... "older" people did just fine in college without having computers in our bedrooms - some of us even before Al Gore invented the Internet.
posted by rev_crash_davis at 12:16 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by rev_crash_davis at 12:16 PM on December 21, 2004
Response by poster: I have a tendency to look for a technical solution too often sometime -it's the geek in me. I think my wife and I have considered most of the issues raised here and we have no illusions about our sons budding interest in girls and sex.
We have a great dialog with our teenager and certainly wouldn't spy on his computer usage without his knowing (although tracking his usage with his knowledge is fair game IMO). Right now, on our family computer, I sometimes find google searches for "Hillary Duff Bikini" and the like, but that's a long way from puppy fisting.
So I think there is some good advice here: it's time to re-visit whether his room is the best place, and yeah, I think I will have to disappoint him by locking down the usenet.
Having said that: is there really no one who's had good luck with any of this software?
Thanks for the input and I will try to report back with our solution and how it goes.
posted by MotorNeuron at 12:16 PM on December 21, 2004
We have a great dialog with our teenager and certainly wouldn't spy on his computer usage without his knowing (although tracking his usage with his knowledge is fair game IMO). Right now, on our family computer, I sometimes find google searches for "Hillary Duff Bikini" and the like, but that's a long way from puppy fisting.
So I think there is some good advice here: it's time to re-visit whether his room is the best place, and yeah, I think I will have to disappoint him by locking down the usenet.
Having said that: is there really no one who's had good luck with any of this software?
Thanks for the input and I will try to report back with our solution and how it goes.
posted by MotorNeuron at 12:16 PM on December 21, 2004
Your kid's going to look at the pornography.
Whether or not you put the computer in his room, or put the filter on it, or don't get a computer at all.
Maybe if he has no computer, no TV, no privacy, no money and no friends, you can keep the pornography out. Otherwise, get over it....
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2004
Whether or not you put the computer in his room, or put the filter on it, or don't get a computer at all.
Maybe if he has no computer, no TV, no privacy, no money and no friends, you can keep the pornography out. Otherwise, get over it....
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2004
One thing that I guess you could try would be to give yourself Remote Desktop access to his PC (it's built into XP Pro), and let him know you'll be checking in on him from time to time, and reading his browser history file. That's what we call the panopticon effect. Fear of ubiquitous oversight leads to well-conditioned behavior.
Oh, btw, I don't remember the name of it, but there is a service you can get that will email a list of every url he goes to to you. I know about it because our pastor shared about it from the pulpit-for men fighting pornography addictions, it is a way for them to be accountable without totally giving up internet access. If you are interested, email me and I will try to get you the info.
Only do this if you want your son to resent you for the horrible, invasive overlord you'd have to become to put either of these sytems into place. I recognize that the Parent>Child relationship is a dictatory one, but these invasions of privacy will make your son feel untrusted, and will likely prevent him from relating honestly with you.
Either you trust your son enough for this or you don't.
Personally, when I was 14, I used the web to find out about all kinds of things that I was curious about, and it was useful, and helped rather than hindered my psychological development (if I do say so myself).
I can relate. I was a geek already, but much of my time online is spent researching areas of interest to me. I learn a lot online, and noone tells me to.
On Preview: too late maybe, but it's typed already, so here you are.
posted by Evstar at 12:20 PM on December 21, 2004
Oh, btw, I don't remember the name of it, but there is a service you can get that will email a list of every url he goes to to you. I know about it because our pastor shared about it from the pulpit-for men fighting pornography addictions, it is a way for them to be accountable without totally giving up internet access. If you are interested, email me and I will try to get you the info.
Only do this if you want your son to resent you for the horrible, invasive overlord you'd have to become to put either of these sytems into place. I recognize that the Parent>Child relationship is a dictatory one, but these invasions of privacy will make your son feel untrusted, and will likely prevent him from relating honestly with you.
Either you trust your son enough for this or you don't.
Personally, when I was 14, I used the web to find out about all kinds of things that I was curious about, and it was useful, and helped rather than hindered my psychological development (if I do say so myself).
I can relate. I was a geek already, but much of my time online is spent researching areas of interest to me. I learn a lot online, and noone tells me to.
On Preview: too late maybe, but it's typed already, so here you are.
posted by Evstar at 12:20 PM on December 21, 2004
Angry jonny may have a couple of good points, except for the 'no locks on bedroom doors' thing.
Men out there, do you not remember what it was like being fourteen years old, walking around with a permanent hardon in your pants?
There is a simple fact about fourteen year old boys: they will find porn. It doesn't matter what you do. They will find it. Rather than any of this nonsense about making him keep his bedroom door open (sure, some of the time when his door is closed, he'll be jacking off. but some of the time he just wants--and needs--to be alone), or using filtering software (though I do agree about Usenet), or anything of that nature, what you need to do as parents is sit down and talk to him about porn. And really, sorry ladies, but this is (if at all possible) a father-son discussion. The last thing any teenage boy wants is to have 'my mother' and 'jerking off' in the same part of his head. If he's gay, that's a whole other can of worms, but I'm not going to get into that.
The discussion needs to be realistic: he's going to look at porn whether you like it or not. What the talk should do is open up a dialogue about respect for women (and men, frankly, but that's neither here nor there), and the pitfalls of porn: objectifying women, coming across scary things, etc. Though as someone pointed out above, for most teenage boys, finding the really squicky porn is more about "OMG D00D, LOOK WHAT I FOUND IT'S SO GROSS" than anything else.
Establish some boundaries about computer usage, sure: recreational computer time comes after homework, lights off means computer off as well, that sort of thing.
Do not, under any circumstances, insist on a bedroom-door-open policy. It's bullshit, and just forces him to lose a lot of privacy. Plus, the locking-himself-in-the-bathroom masturbation just ensures that 1) subconscious ideas of shame will certainly become associated, and 2) he'll have to be right quick about it, which sets many men up for issues with premature ejaculation later in life.
On preview:
One thing that I guess you could try would be to give yourself Remote Desktop access to his PC (it's built into XP Pro), and let him know you'll be checking in on him from time to time, and reading his browser history file.
Also foolish. One, everyone knows how to delete history. Or if he doesn't, you can bet it'll be one of the first things he looks up. Two, that just invades his privacy again, and tells him that he has nothing he can do that is his.
I am the experienced mother of teenagers, and I am telling you that that computer needs to be in a public room, period.
Take that one with a bag of salt, at least. I think we all know why.
Civil_Disobedient, I don't know how old you are, but a lot of us *ahem*... "older" people did just fine in college without having computers in our bedrooms - some of us even before Al Gore invented the Internet.
Yes, but in your day, 'wet behind the ears' meant something very different. The Zeitgeist has changed.
FWIW, having a computer in his room is a good thing. Just enforce reasonable rules-- which to my mind, do not include tracking his movements, enforcing an open-door policy, or anything of that nature. Show him you trust him. if he abrogates that trust-- playing online when he should be doing homework (you could likely reasonably insist that the door be kept open during homework, or that the public computer be used for homework), staying up until all hours (and really, give a little leeway... does it matter if he stays up until 2am on a Friday night?), that sort of thing, then revisit where the computer is located. But the best thing, always, is to start with a level of trust, and adjust up or down as necessary.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:22 PM on December 21, 2004
Men out there, do you not remember what it was like being fourteen years old, walking around with a permanent hardon in your pants?
There is a simple fact about fourteen year old boys: they will find porn. It doesn't matter what you do. They will find it. Rather than any of this nonsense about making him keep his bedroom door open (sure, some of the time when his door is closed, he'll be jacking off. but some of the time he just wants--and needs--to be alone), or using filtering software (though I do agree about Usenet), or anything of that nature, what you need to do as parents is sit down and talk to him about porn. And really, sorry ladies, but this is (if at all possible) a father-son discussion. The last thing any teenage boy wants is to have 'my mother' and 'jerking off' in the same part of his head. If he's gay, that's a whole other can of worms, but I'm not going to get into that.
The discussion needs to be realistic: he's going to look at porn whether you like it or not. What the talk should do is open up a dialogue about respect for women (and men, frankly, but that's neither here nor there), and the pitfalls of porn: objectifying women, coming across scary things, etc. Though as someone pointed out above, for most teenage boys, finding the really squicky porn is more about "OMG D00D, LOOK WHAT I FOUND IT'S SO GROSS" than anything else.
Establish some boundaries about computer usage, sure: recreational computer time comes after homework, lights off means computer off as well, that sort of thing.
Do not, under any circumstances, insist on a bedroom-door-open policy. It's bullshit, and just forces him to lose a lot of privacy. Plus, the locking-himself-in-the-bathroom masturbation just ensures that 1) subconscious ideas of shame will certainly become associated, and 2) he'll have to be right quick about it, which sets many men up for issues with premature ejaculation later in life.
On preview:
One thing that I guess you could try would be to give yourself Remote Desktop access to his PC (it's built into XP Pro), and let him know you'll be checking in on him from time to time, and reading his browser history file.
Also foolish. One, everyone knows how to delete history. Or if he doesn't, you can bet it'll be one of the first things he looks up. Two, that just invades his privacy again, and tells him that he has nothing he can do that is his.
I am the experienced mother of teenagers, and I am telling you that that computer needs to be in a public room, period.
Take that one with a bag of salt, at least. I think we all know why.
Civil_Disobedient, I don't know how old you are, but a lot of us *ahem*... "older" people did just fine in college without having computers in our bedrooms - some of us even before Al Gore invented the Internet.
Yes, but in your day, 'wet behind the ears' meant something very different. The Zeitgeist has changed.
FWIW, having a computer in his room is a good thing. Just enforce reasonable rules-- which to my mind, do not include tracking his movements, enforcing an open-door policy, or anything of that nature. Show him you trust him. if he abrogates that trust-- playing online when he should be doing homework (you could likely reasonably insist that the door be kept open during homework, or that the public computer be used for homework), staying up until all hours (and really, give a little leeway... does it matter if he stays up until 2am on a Friday night?), that sort of thing, then revisit where the computer is located. But the best thing, always, is to start with a level of trust, and adjust up or down as necessary.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:22 PM on December 21, 2004
Oh yeah, and what Evstar said, twice. He's probably the closest to being a fourteen year old boy that we have here.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:23 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:23 PM on December 21, 2004
Pretty much all of the products along the lines of what you're considering are completely worthless crap, being sold to clueless parents who want to feel like they "did something" about what they perceive as problematic content, but don't want to actually do anything.
Social and ethical parenting aspects aside (I'd probably just tell the kid in plain language what I did and didn't approve of, give an overview of the applicable law of the land, and leave it at that) the technical barrier you face is large, so large that even the Great Firewall of China hasn't proven to be much of a solution: this is essentially a computer security problem, but you are providing physical access to the machine, rendering a large part of any security regime completely moot. Even if you make the connection completely unroutable, deny access to NAT, block all ports and provide nothing but an HTTP proxy, the kid could pop a Knoppix or BBC-LNX CD in there -- or, hell, that old 1 meg floppy QNX demo with a web browser -- and do as he wishes across an HTTP tunnel to his friend's house.
If you're determined to place even somewhat effective technical controls on network access, you'll have to take a number of draconian measures, and put in a lot of effort in terms of network design and physical security.
On the machine itself
His user account on the machine should be unprivileged. There should be no privileged account.
The system should be reimaged from scratch regularly. There are software products that will do this on every reboot.
The case of the machine should be locked, to prevent introduction of an alternate boot device.
There should be no removable media device on the system such as a CDROM, DVDROM, or floppy device.
USB and FireWire ports should be removed or damaged to prevent use as boot devices.
I'd argue against installing Windows, which is just too hard to properly secure against unauthorized use.
The system should not have a compiler installed.
No modem. Also, no sound device, since with clever software, modern sound cards can be used to emulate modems.
The network interface should not support a programmable MAC address. Don't use a NIC that allows this.
Configuring the network
Purchase a router, and place the new machine on a separate network. This is the internal trusted network segment.
On the router, deny ALL access to the internet from this segment. Accept only connections via port 80 to a single host on the untrusted "regular" DMZ network.
Install the content filtering proxy on the DMZ host. Make sure this host remains in a locked room that the user won't have physical access to it, since this host and its proxy are the keystone of your content filtering security scheme.
Configure the proxy to allow only HTTP GET and POST requests. CONNECT should be explicitly denied.
Policy
No use of the network whatsoever is permitted except for web browsing through the proxy. Mail, IM, online gaming, FTP, Gopher, IRC, news, file sharing, and especially SSL sessions of any kind -- even proxied -- are not permitted as their contents cannot be effectively filtered.
The content filtering proxy's logs should be regularly audited. The security of the proxy host itself should be periodically reviewed, particularly the physical security.
The new client machine should likewise be frequently reviewed for breaches to system security, including the physical seal on the box itself.
Yes, I realize this seems like a ton of work for something so simple. However, each of these things is actually completely required to prevent your kid from completely bypassing your filter with some simple trick. Most of the clever-ish approaches being mentioned above are not truly effective in any meaningful way. Securing PCs and networks is actually very hard, and the apparent out-of-proportion absurdity of my advice is a reflection of that.
I'm not mocking you. This is all good security advice about how to do exactly what you're asking for. It's just that it really is easier to actually parent the kid instead of installing an effective content barrier around him.
posted by majick at 12:38 PM on December 21, 2004
Social and ethical parenting aspects aside (I'd probably just tell the kid in plain language what I did and didn't approve of, give an overview of the applicable law of the land, and leave it at that) the technical barrier you face is large, so large that even the Great Firewall of China hasn't proven to be much of a solution: this is essentially a computer security problem, but you are providing physical access to the machine, rendering a large part of any security regime completely moot. Even if you make the connection completely unroutable, deny access to NAT, block all ports and provide nothing but an HTTP proxy, the kid could pop a Knoppix or BBC-LNX CD in there -- or, hell, that old 1 meg floppy QNX demo with a web browser -- and do as he wishes across an HTTP tunnel to his friend's house.
If you're determined to place even somewhat effective technical controls on network access, you'll have to take a number of draconian measures, and put in a lot of effort in terms of network design and physical security.
On the machine itself
Configuring the network
Policy
Yes, I realize this seems like a ton of work for something so simple. However, each of these things is actually completely required to prevent your kid from completely bypassing your filter with some simple trick. Most of the clever-ish approaches being mentioned above are not truly effective in any meaningful way. Securing PCs and networks is actually very hard, and the apparent out-of-proportion absurdity of my advice is a reflection of that.
I'm not mocking you. This is all good security advice about how to do exactly what you're asking for. It's just that it really is easier to actually parent the kid instead of installing an effective content barrier around him.
posted by majick at 12:38 PM on December 21, 2004
It's amazing how 14 year old boys become black holes for explicit materials. The internet makes it a bit easier for them, but doesn't really make much difference. If he doesn't have access to a computer, he'll still stash a copy of Juggs under the mattress, etc.
What's more likely, should he have a computer in his room, is that he'll become something of a supplier for his friends with stricter parents. My best friend in high school ran a BBS out of his basement (an ostensibly "public" place in the house) and had access to the most enticing and revolting photographs you've ever seen.
Were I in your situation, and I hope to be someday, I'd simply monitor what's going on to the best of my ability. If he's checking out porn, perhaps it's time to have a discussion about sex, sexual health, etc. If he's looking at the anarchists cookbook, it's time to talk about the very real dangers - both physical and otherwise - that come with messing around with that sort of thing. Same goes for drugs, violence, gambling, etc. Instead of censoring the materials, you can use his natural curiosity to enter into productive discussions in a non-combative way.
And, of course, you should monitor his use for good things as well. If he's visiting sites about model rocketry, theater, music or sports you can help support those interests with real world activities.
posted by aladfar at 12:40 PM on December 21, 2004
What's more likely, should he have a computer in his room, is that he'll become something of a supplier for his friends with stricter parents. My best friend in high school ran a BBS out of his basement (an ostensibly "public" place in the house) and had access to the most enticing and revolting photographs you've ever seen.
Were I in your situation, and I hope to be someday, I'd simply monitor what's going on to the best of my ability. If he's checking out porn, perhaps it's time to have a discussion about sex, sexual health, etc. If he's looking at the anarchists cookbook, it's time to talk about the very real dangers - both physical and otherwise - that come with messing around with that sort of thing. Same goes for drugs, violence, gambling, etc. Instead of censoring the materials, you can use his natural curiosity to enter into productive discussions in a non-combative way.
And, of course, you should monitor his use for good things as well. If he's visiting sites about model rocketry, theater, music or sports you can help support those interests with real world activities.
posted by aladfar at 12:40 PM on December 21, 2004
To pick up on aladfar's point, your kid is actually at an interesting cusp--my boys are still much younger, but I've always figured that once they hit high school, I'd stop trying to block them from getting to specific places on the Internet, but instead let them know very clearly and openly that their activity is being captured, and that until they're 17 or 18, that's going to be the case when they use computers from home.
Not that I would expect to regularly check the logs--in some ways, it doesn't really matter whether or not you did. But while a 14-year-old--who's using a computer that his parents provided, in their house--doesn't really have a right to privacy, he does at the same time deserve some degree of latitude.
Whether you do it at the machine, or at the gateway (which would theoretically be harder for him to circumvent), I personally think it's fair to tell him, "You can go anywhere, I'm not going to stop you, but you have to understand that if it came down to it, I can always find out what you've been doing. Be careful, and don't make me care to check."
At 16, you might make a commitment to him that you wouldn't do it without telling him. At 17 or 18, like I said, you should probably remove it altogether. But at 14, his sense of conscience and self-restraint is still being formed. While he deserves some autonomy, and needs it to learn how to exercise that restraint, I think there's a good argument for giving it training wheels.
posted by LairBob at 12:56 PM on December 21, 2004
Not that I would expect to regularly check the logs--in some ways, it doesn't really matter whether or not you did. But while a 14-year-old--who's using a computer that his parents provided, in their house--doesn't really have a right to privacy, he does at the same time deserve some degree of latitude.
Whether you do it at the machine, or at the gateway (which would theoretically be harder for him to circumvent), I personally think it's fair to tell him, "You can go anywhere, I'm not going to stop you, but you have to understand that if it came down to it, I can always find out what you've been doing. Be careful, and don't make me care to check."
At 16, you might make a commitment to him that you wouldn't do it without telling him. At 17 or 18, like I said, you should probably remove it altogether. But at 14, his sense of conscience and self-restraint is still being formed. While he deserves some autonomy, and needs it to learn how to exercise that restraint, I think there's a good argument for giving it training wheels.
posted by LairBob at 12:56 PM on December 21, 2004
If you want the, "so how's it work six months from now?" answer, angry johnny, we have three computers in our house. Our family consists of me, the wife, and two sons, so it is almost 1:1, computer-wise.
As far as sex-ed kinda stuff goes, we've tried to be as open as possible. We try to restrict the violence our kids see in movies and video games, but don't worry as much about exposed body parts (unless there is violence involved).
We have two 'puters in the family room, one in our bedroom. The sneakiest things I've caught my 17-year-old son doing are: blogging right under our noses and assuming we didn't know (even commented to the blog about how when he sneaks around, we tend to find things out, but when he was blogging right under our noses, we didn't have a clue). We did, and I read his blog once in a while. Nothing really exciting there. It could be rationalization, but I feel if he's posted it for the world to see, I don't have a problem looking on.
The other thing he did was get involved in online gaming. I once caught him playing at 3 in the morning on a school night. He said he was trying out a new feature that had just been released. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not sure. But we put passwords on the Windows startup to prevent him from loggin on when we're not around.
At this point, I don't check up on him regularly unless he gives me cause to do so.
Our 14-year-old hasn't really been sucked into the whole computer thing yet. I'm sure it will happen, but we'll deal with it as it comes along.
posted by Doohickie at 1:04 PM on December 21, 2004
As far as sex-ed kinda stuff goes, we've tried to be as open as possible. We try to restrict the violence our kids see in movies and video games, but don't worry as much about exposed body parts (unless there is violence involved).
We have two 'puters in the family room, one in our bedroom. The sneakiest things I've caught my 17-year-old son doing are: blogging right under our noses and assuming we didn't know (even commented to the blog about how when he sneaks around, we tend to find things out, but when he was blogging right under our noses, we didn't have a clue). We did, and I read his blog once in a while. Nothing really exciting there. It could be rationalization, but I feel if he's posted it for the world to see, I don't have a problem looking on.
The other thing he did was get involved in online gaming. I once caught him playing at 3 in the morning on a school night. He said he was trying out a new feature that had just been released. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not sure. But we put passwords on the Windows startup to prevent him from loggin on when we're not around.
At this point, I don't check up on him regularly unless he gives me cause to do so.
Our 14-year-old hasn't really been sucked into the whole computer thing yet. I'm sure it will happen, but we'll deal with it as it comes along.
posted by Doohickie at 1:04 PM on December 21, 2004
But while a 14-year-old--who's using a computer that his parents provided, in their house--doesn't really have a right to privacy,
You're joking, right?
I feel sorry for your children. When I was growing up, the absolute and incontrovertible rule in the house was "If a door is closed, you knock and wait for a response before entering."
That went for absolutely everyone. Everyone has a right to privacy.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:11 PM on December 21, 2004
You're joking, right?
I feel sorry for your children. When I was growing up, the absolute and incontrovertible rule in the house was "If a door is closed, you knock and wait for a response before entering."
That went for absolutely everyone. Everyone has a right to privacy.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:11 PM on December 21, 2004
Civil_Disobedient, I don't know how old you are
Old enough to know the pain of downloading ASCII porn off a 300 baud modem.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:13 PM on December 21, 2004
Old enough to know the pain of downloading ASCII porn off a 300 baud modem.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:13 PM on December 21, 2004
This bears repeating:
I'm not mocking you. This is all good security advice about how to do exactly what you're asking for. It's just that it really is easier to actually parent the kid instead of installing an effective content barrier around him.
That's what this all boils down to. This is just the V-chip, fifteen years later. Rather than actually discussing with your child how this stuff all works, opening a dialogue, and treating him like someone who is on the cusp of adulthood, you'd rather just lock down any expectation of privacy or freedom he has.
Would you remove books from the library, or follow him around to see what he's reading? Of course not. Yes, I understand that the internets has a lot of information not found in your local library-- all the more reason to talk, instead of playing warden.
And Evstar, shouldn't you be in school? :P
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:15 PM on December 21, 2004
I'm not mocking you. This is all good security advice about how to do exactly what you're asking for. It's just that it really is easier to actually parent the kid instead of installing an effective content barrier around him.
That's what this all boils down to. This is just the V-chip, fifteen years later. Rather than actually discussing with your child how this stuff all works, opening a dialogue, and treating him like someone who is on the cusp of adulthood, you'd rather just lock down any expectation of privacy or freedom he has.
Would you remove books from the library, or follow him around to see what he's reading? Of course not. Yes, I understand that the internets has a lot of information not found in your local library-- all the more reason to talk, instead of playing warden.
And Evstar, shouldn't you be in school? :P
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:15 PM on December 21, 2004
Everyone is so concerned with porn (which makes sense given that the subject is a 14 year old boy) but the damage that can do to the kid's budding psyche or his parents' tender sensibilities is debatable.
The damage from spyware, viruses, and being sued for illegal filesharing is, however, very tangible. You may feel weird talking to your kid about porn, but DEFINITELY have a long talk with him about all the things he can do to screw up his computer, the other computers on the house network, if there is one, and the family budget.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 1:29 PM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
The damage from spyware, viruses, and being sued for illegal filesharing is, however, very tangible. You may feel weird talking to your kid about porn, but DEFINITELY have a long talk with him about all the things he can do to screw up his computer, the other computers on the house network, if there is one, and the family budget.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 1:29 PM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
No, dna, I'm not joking, but I did mean more precisely that "he doesn't have a right to privacy on the computer". I tried to make that (relatively) clear in how I framed the statement.
I was 14, once, too--I'm under no illusions about what it's like to be a guy at that time in your life, and I'm not talking about putting webcams in their rooms or busting the door down because they're in the bathroom for too long. But it's not just about finding pr0n or puppy abuse online...there's a lot of really messed-up stuff out there. A 14-year old should probably be exposed to some of it, but he shouldn't be alone. If you're not going to be there over his shoulder--you can't and you shouldn't--I think a 14-year old still needs a little more structure and oversight than just "Hey, here's the Internet. Go nuts!"
posted by LairBob at 1:32 PM on December 21, 2004
I was 14, once, too--I'm under no illusions about what it's like to be a guy at that time in your life, and I'm not talking about putting webcams in their rooms or busting the door down because they're in the bathroom for too long. But it's not just about finding pr0n or puppy abuse online...there's a lot of really messed-up stuff out there. A 14-year old should probably be exposed to some of it, but he shouldn't be alone. If you're not going to be there over his shoulder--you can't and you shouldn't--I think a 14-year old still needs a little more structure and oversight than just "Hey, here's the Internet. Go nuts!"
posted by LairBob at 1:32 PM on December 21, 2004
I had a computer in my room when I was 14, and I downloaded porn (back in the day when it was a pain in the ass to do so), and I didn't turn into an addict or fail to do my homework or start doing drugs or catch teh gay or whatever it is you're worried about.
But it's your kid, so whatever.
posted by falconred at 1:33 PM on December 21, 2004
But it's your kid, so whatever.
posted by falconred at 1:33 PM on December 21, 2004
Not that you asked, but -- if I hadn't had an unfiltered/unrestricted PC in my room when I was 12/13, I almost certainly never would have become as educated and aware of other cultures/races/sexualities/etc as I did. Or as educated about computers.
...and I second what dirtynumbangelboy said about privacy. My family respected my privacy, and while this meant that I did indeed see puppy fisting before I was old enough to legally fuck, it also meant that I always felt comfortable with researching 'sensitive' things online, and there was never any trust issues between my family and I that would prevent me from discussing said issues with them.
posted by Jairus at 1:39 PM on December 21, 2004
...and I second what dirtynumbangelboy said about privacy. My family respected my privacy, and while this meant that I did indeed see puppy fisting before I was old enough to legally fuck, it also meant that I always felt comfortable with researching 'sensitive' things online, and there was never any trust issues between my family and I that would prevent me from discussing said issues with them.
posted by Jairus at 1:39 PM on December 21, 2004
Since it's winter break, I certainly hope evstar is not in school today!
posted by Lynsey at 1:41 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by Lynsey at 1:41 PM on December 21, 2004
Absolutely, LairBob, which is why I advocate opening a dialogue. Statements like "If you find something you have any questions about, come ask us. We will not get angry about it, whatever it is," go a long way towards building a relationship of mutual trust and security.
On preview:
Lynsey, winter break seems to be starting earlier and earlier every year. Or I'm getting old.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2004
On preview:
Lynsey, winter break seems to be starting earlier and earlier every year. Or I'm getting old.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2004
Look, everybody--it's not about being worried about some 14-year old being exposed to porn. They're going to be exposed to porn in so many different ways, that it's completely futile (and unnatural) to try and somehow block it out. Sure, in principle, you're not going to put "Persian Kitty" as a bookmark in his browser, but that's really not the point.
It is about things like: being a jerk to other people, getting taken advantage of by other people, and generally making the mistakes every 14-year old needs to make, but which on the Internet, they can make in a way that gets spectacularly out of hand. Yes, they can always do that on other PCs, at school or at their friends' house, but there is a specific issue of having a computer, at their disposal, in their room, that makes it a special case.
Anyone here who thinks that MotorNeuron, or Doohickie, or me, or anyone else wrestling with this problem is just "trying to shirk their parenting duty" or "won't talk to their kids" is really not being very generous. Parents do all sorts of things to artificially constrain and influence their kids' behavior--you're not a failure as a parent because you think "Talk it through with them, and then leave them alone" isn't enough. They're 14. Of course you need to talk it through with them, but of course they're not going to listen. That's their job. It's how they grow. But it does mean that as a parent, you have to get very pragmatic sometimes.
posted by LairBob at 1:49 PM on December 21, 2004
It is about things like: being a jerk to other people, getting taken advantage of by other people, and generally making the mistakes every 14-year old needs to make, but which on the Internet, they can make in a way that gets spectacularly out of hand. Yes, they can always do that on other PCs, at school or at their friends' house, but there is a specific issue of having a computer, at their disposal, in their room, that makes it a special case.
Anyone here who thinks that MotorNeuron, or Doohickie, or me, or anyone else wrestling with this problem is just "trying to shirk their parenting duty" or "won't talk to their kids" is really not being very generous. Parents do all sorts of things to artificially constrain and influence their kids' behavior--you're not a failure as a parent because you think "Talk it through with them, and then leave them alone" isn't enough. They're 14. Of course you need to talk it through with them, but of course they're not going to listen. That's their job. It's how they grow. But it does mean that as a parent, you have to get very pragmatic sometimes.
posted by LairBob at 1:49 PM on December 21, 2004
If your son is like me at 14, and you give him any internet connectivity whatsoever, it won't take him long to get to whatever it is he might want. If he is particularly savvy, you won't even be able to tell he is doing so.
If he has Microsoft Word (for instance) on the computer, he will be able to get any privileges.
(MAYBE reimgaging the harddrive every day/week will do the trick.)
Either keep the computer in a public room of the house, or figure out another method. In middle/high school I bypassed every content-filtering software I encountered, and he probably will, too. In fact, the presence of such measures makes using the computer for day-to-day reasons ver difficult, and is largely what spurred me on to access the forbidden material in the first place.
This is not to try to criticize your parenting (as was suggested above) but to say that, from my own experience, all such "mechanical" security measures are ineffectual.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:59 PM on December 21, 2004
If he has Microsoft Word (for instance) on the computer, he will be able to get any privileges.
(MAYBE reimgaging the harddrive every day/week will do the trick.)
Either keep the computer in a public room of the house, or figure out another method. In middle/high school I bypassed every content-filtering software I encountered, and he probably will, too. In fact, the presence of such measures makes using the computer for day-to-day reasons ver difficult, and is largely what spurred me on to access the forbidden material in the first place.
This is not to try to criticize your parenting (as was suggested above) but to say that, from my own experience, all such "mechanical" security measures are ineffectual.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:59 PM on December 21, 2004
I will concede that, had I had unlimited internet access (instead of local BBSs) at 14, with the same supervision I had at the time (read: almost none), I might well have wound up in hot water. I was into some moderately bad shit which didn't have the chance to get fully out of hand because of the provinciality of it all. I still think, however, that, "for God's sake, don't get arrested" is probably the best defense.
posted by uncleozzy at 2:00 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by uncleozzy at 2:00 PM on December 21, 2004
Yeah, I really didn't want to sound petulant, but it just seems that so often, when legitimate, practical parenting issues come up, people feel compelled to chime in and say "Well, if you just did a better job as a parent, you wouldn't have that problem!"
It just gets old after a while.
posted by LairBob at 2:03 PM on December 21, 2004
It just gets old after a while.
posted by LairBob at 2:03 PM on December 21, 2004
Well, to be honest (and knock wood), I really haven't had any of "those problems" to speak of with my sons so far. You heard the worst of it earlier in this thread. For those of you who haven't had teenagers, there is a fine line between giving them enough room to grow and preventing them from hurting themselves and others. My wife and I tend to swap the "good cop-bad cop" roles at various stages of our sons' development, but there always seems to be the rule setter/enforcer and the approachable parent.
To me, the ultimate incentive to good behavior has been involvement in activities (scouts, music, sports, whatever). Provided you let them back off when they get over-extended, the best way to keep them out of trouble is to give them acceptable outlets.
posted by Doohickie at 2:24 PM on December 21, 2004
To me, the ultimate incentive to good behavior has been involvement in activities (scouts, music, sports, whatever). Provided you let them back off when they get over-extended, the best way to keep them out of trouble is to give them acceptable outlets.
posted by Doohickie at 2:24 PM on December 21, 2004
OR you could trust your son to have basically good judgement, realize that though the world he can (and will) access through his computer is somewhat foreign to you, it is as natural to him as the air that he breathes and the world that he will have to function and compete in, and keep the communication channels open between you. Crippling someone does them no favors. If you teach him now that you mistrust him, he will conclude from that that he's not trustworthy, and no trouble that he can get into online will do him as much permanent damage as that.
posted by rushmc at 2:25 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by rushmc at 2:25 PM on December 21, 2004
I still think, however, that, "for God's sake, don't get arrested" is probably the best defense.
Yes, yes, yes. This above all else.
As for the "do your job, parents" hoopla - a 14 year-old boy is not going to come to their parents with questions about tubgrl, facials, double-penetration, etc.. Not going to happen. Never in a million years.
They'll figure it out on their own, just like most of us did. Which is fine. Your parental duty is to make sure they aren't going out to meet up with their new IRC "friends" at some dodgy exit of the NJ turnpike.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2004
Yes, yes, yes. This above all else.
As for the "do your job, parents" hoopla - a 14 year-old boy is not going to come to their parents with questions about tubgrl, facials, double-penetration, etc.. Not going to happen. Never in a million years.
They'll figure it out on their own, just like most of us did. Which is fine. Your parental duty is to make sure they aren't going out to meet up with their new IRC "friends" at some dodgy exit of the NJ turnpike.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2004
I am surprised noone has yet linked to Peacefire. No matter whether you think censorware is a good idea or not, it seems depressingly (or cheeringly) ineffective.
I would avoid technology, but beyond that it's hard to say. Some of you are alarmingly judgemental. Acceptable standards of decency, levels of privacy, degree of maturity can legitimately vary between people and families.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:19 PM on December 21, 2004
I would avoid technology, but beyond that it's hard to say. Some of you are alarmingly judgemental. Acceptable standards of decency, levels of privacy, degree of maturity can legitimately vary between people and families.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:19 PM on December 21, 2004
rushmc... [flame deleted]
On Preview: What i_am_joe's_spleen said.
posted by Doohickie at 3:23 PM on December 21, 2004
On Preview: What i_am_joe's_spleen said.
posted by Doohickie at 3:23 PM on December 21, 2004
Yeah, I really didn't want to sound petulant, but it just seems that so often, when legitimate, practical parenting issues come up, people feel compelled to chime in and say "Well, if you just did a better job as a parent, you wouldn't have that problem!"
Just to clarify, that's not precisely what I was saying. What I was saying (in agreement with whoever posted what I quoted) was that something like just locking everything down on the computer, etc, is by definition bad parenting. It's the same as plunking the kids in front of Barney on the TV and calling that 'looking after them.'
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:34 PM on December 21, 2004
Just to clarify, that's not precisely what I was saying. What I was saying (in agreement with whoever posted what I quoted) was that something like just locking everything down on the computer, etc, is by definition bad parenting. It's the same as plunking the kids in front of Barney on the TV and calling that 'looking after them.'
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:34 PM on December 21, 2004
I think, in a nutshell, if you trust your son enough to be able to put a PC in his room, then you don't need to do anything else. If he can't be trusted (too much porn, piracy, or just likely to use the damn thing too often) then you shouldn't let him have a PC in his room. And the fact that you need to ask here implies that it's probably the latter, in this case.
posted by ascullion at 3:45 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by ascullion at 3:45 PM on December 21, 2004
One reason not to use filtering software which I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that it overblocks egregiously. When I was 14 my parents didn't filter anything (though my own computer -- which was isolated in the basement -- was a piece-of-crap 386 running Slackware which didn't have enough disk space to install X, so I did all my browsing in Lynx, so, alas, no porn for me) but I spent a while testing one of the filtering packages for Peacefire -- they had a trial thing where you could set your browser to use their (NetNanny's or whoever it was) proxy and it would block the sites NetNanny blocked. It was amazing how often completely innocuous content was blocked, like the Iliad in Latin.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 3:58 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by IshmaelGraves at 3:58 PM on December 21, 2004
I understand that, dna--that's part of my point that taking away choice is not necessarily the best option for a kid on that cusp. (Every kid is different, so I won't second-guess whether MotorNeuron's options with his or her son. I already do everything I can to make sure my 5-year old doesn't run across anything untoward when he surfs around, but that's definitely inappropriate for a 16-year old, for example.)
Nevertheless, I completely disagree with your assertion that "just locking everything down on the computer, etc, is by definition bad parenting". I think you're making a needless generalization that insults what a substantial effort it can be to be a good parent.
You have no real idea of the complete relationship between any parent and their kid. In principle, you might disagree with the approach, but there are a lot of possible circumstances where it might be very good parenting for someone to do exactly what you don't like.
More to the point, even if it's not the best move, there's every probability that a parent is doing a thousand other things right. Picking one specific issue, and saying "Doing this is, by definition, bad parenting" totally ignores the complexity of raising a 14-year old child, and it's just not fair.
posted by LairBob at 4:09 PM on December 21, 2004
Nevertheless, I completely disagree with your assertion that "just locking everything down on the computer, etc, is by definition bad parenting". I think you're making a needless generalization that insults what a substantial effort it can be to be a good parent.
You have no real idea of the complete relationship between any parent and their kid. In principle, you might disagree with the approach, but there are a lot of possible circumstances where it might be very good parenting for someone to do exactly what you don't like.
More to the point, even if it's not the best move, there's every probability that a parent is doing a thousand other things right. Picking one specific issue, and saying "Doing this is, by definition, bad parenting" totally ignores the complexity of raising a 14-year old child, and it's just not fair.
posted by LairBob at 4:09 PM on December 21, 2004
You have no real idea of the complete relationship between any parent and their kid. In principle, you might disagree with the approach, but there are a lot of possible circumstances where it might be very good parenting for someone to do exactly what you don't like.
With all due respect, I disagree. However, you do have a point-- under some circumstances that could be good parenting. But never as the default action. That sort of restriction to begin with is quite simply a bad idea. The parenting espoused by the--I forget their names; that family with like a dozen kids that was an FPP a few weeks ago--is merely an extension of that kind of knee-jerk restriction.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:12 PM on December 21, 2004
With all due respect, I disagree. However, you do have a point-- under some circumstances that could be good parenting. But never as the default action. That sort of restriction to begin with is quite simply a bad idea. The parenting espoused by the--I forget their names; that family with like a dozen kids that was an FPP a few weeks ago--is merely an extension of that kind of knee-jerk restriction.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:12 PM on December 21, 2004
Don't stick the computer in his room. That's a luxury for when you buy your own machine and can pay for your own internet, in my opinion. (I know I had to wait til that point)
posted by angry modem at 4:25 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by angry modem at 4:25 PM on December 21, 2004
Acceptable standards of decency, levels of privacy, degree of maturity can legitimately vary between people and families.
Well, that's a given, I should have thought. But only Motor Neuron can make those judgements about their kid; certainly strangers on Metafilter cannot.
posted by rushmc at 4:53 PM on December 21, 2004
Well, that's a given, I should have thought. But only Motor Neuron can make those judgements about their kid; certainly strangers on Metafilter cannot.
posted by rushmc at 4:53 PM on December 21, 2004
Yeah, but dna, that's my point--in making such broad assertions about what is and isn't good parenting, you're tarring all parents who don't necessarily agree with you with the same brush.
I'm totally willing to accept that what you're saying comes from the right place, especially given your willingness to discuss and refine it. I think any parent who's reading your posts, though, would appreciate it if you'd pull back a bit on the implicit assertion that if you don't set us straight on how to be good parents, then we're probably going to act like that worst-case family.
We know what bad parenting is, and we spend the better part of our waking hours trying to figure out how to avoid it. When we ask for input or advice in a public forum like this, we'd just appreciate people not assuming the worst of us.
posted by LairBob at 4:54 PM on December 21, 2004
I'm totally willing to accept that what you're saying comes from the right place, especially given your willingness to discuss and refine it. I think any parent who's reading your posts, though, would appreciate it if you'd pull back a bit on the implicit assertion that if you don't set us straight on how to be good parents, then we're probably going to act like that worst-case family.
We know what bad parenting is, and we spend the better part of our waking hours trying to figure out how to avoid it. When we ask for input or advice in a public forum like this, we'd just appreciate people not assuming the worst of us.
posted by LairBob at 4:54 PM on December 21, 2004
Response by poster: This has been an interesting thread. And to think, being my first question ever asked, I was worried that no one would reply. Uh, yeah.
As for the comment or implication that this might be ineffective or lazy parenting, remember: restricting the child's access to this content doesn't have to preclude discussing the issue of pornography, hate speech, and other internet nasties, with the boy. When did it become an either-or proposition?
At the very least, I've gained a couple of things from this thread. First, no one has encountered (or will admit to using) a parental filter program that is actually effective against a resourceful teenager. I suspected as much. Secondly, I have something for him to read. The various arguments here should give him some insight into the sort of dilemmas that Mom and Dad consider every day when we are considering his well-being.
posted by MotorNeuron at 5:39 PM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
As for the comment or implication that this might be ineffective or lazy parenting, remember: restricting the child's access to this content doesn't have to preclude discussing the issue of pornography, hate speech, and other internet nasties, with the boy. When did it become an either-or proposition?
At the very least, I've gained a couple of things from this thread. First, no one has encountered (or will admit to using) a parental filter program that is actually effective against a resourceful teenager. I suspected as much. Secondly, I have something for him to read. The various arguments here should give him some insight into the sort of dilemmas that Mom and Dad consider every day when we are considering his well-being.
posted by MotorNeuron at 5:39 PM on December 21, 2004 [1 favorite]
That's actually a brilliant idea, MotorNeuron. Reading this may well push him to see how much responsibility he'll need to have for himself, because the consequences of not doing so are laid right out in black and white green and white.
And FWIW, I'm sorry if I came across as harsh. I haven't been having the best day. So... take everything I said, and smooth off the rough edges :)
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:04 PM on December 21, 2004
And FWIW, I'm sorry if I came across as harsh. I haven't been having the best day. So... take everything I said, and smooth off the rough edges :)
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:04 PM on December 21, 2004
after reading through the thread following my comment, i have one other thought - would you rather he make the mistakes at home or at someone else's house or a less ideal environment?
my point is that i hope as a parent to get my kids to take intelligent risks. i would rather they make some mistakes and try some of the less than savory things at home than in an empty friend's house or a car in a parking lot etc etc
give him the laptop, give him unfettered access, let him know the expectations, and the consequences of his actions
what i always hope for is that my kids will sneak a peak or take a puff or a swig and decide its not for them, or realize that they respect deal old dad enough to not do that anymore because i have shown them the same respect
and about the door thing: we have the same policy as mentioned by a few - knock and wait for an answer. however, the lack of a lock is just enough of a hitch to deter some of the more significant risks. worked for me growing up
posted by angry jonny at 6:09 PM on December 21, 2004
my point is that i hope as a parent to get my kids to take intelligent risks. i would rather they make some mistakes and try some of the less than savory things at home than in an empty friend's house or a car in a parking lot etc etc
give him the laptop, give him unfettered access, let him know the expectations, and the consequences of his actions
what i always hope for is that my kids will sneak a peak or take a puff or a swig and decide its not for them, or realize that they respect deal old dad enough to not do that anymore because i have shown them the same respect
and about the door thing: we have the same policy as mentioned by a few - knock and wait for an answer. however, the lack of a lock is just enough of a hitch to deter some of the more significant risks. worked for me growing up
posted by angry jonny at 6:09 PM on December 21, 2004
Motor Neuron, I look forward to hearing about how the puppy fisting talk goes.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:15 PM on December 21, 2004
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:15 PM on December 21, 2004
Don't stick the computer in his room. That's a luxury for when you buy your own machine and can pay for your own internet, in my opinion. (I know I had to wait til that point)
Just thought I should say that I paid for and built my computer entirely by myself. It might be a good idea to have your son earn the privilege of having his own computer so maybe he would respect it more. Or some such shite.
posted by Evstar at 8:15 PM on December 21, 2004
Just thought I should say that I paid for and built my computer entirely by myself. It might be a good idea to have your son earn the privilege of having his own computer so maybe he would respect it more. Or some such shite.
posted by Evstar at 8:15 PM on December 21, 2004
I wouldn't have been interested in non-mainstream porn at 14. Bestiality, scat, etc. would have turned me off then as it does now. I was just getting familiar with (and extremely interested in) vaginas and boobs and related things and that was plenty to keep me busy.
A lot of responses seem most concerned about limiting masturbation. That is a waste of time and unhealthy. 14 -year olds masturbate. A lot. Get used to it.
I'd be more concerned about a kid getting swept up in the various ways to waste time that a computer provides: mindless net surfing, pointless IMing (LOL OMG ROFL, etc. - digital noise instead of conversation), video games, Metafilter.
That being said, I wouldn't give a 14 year old net access in his own room. A net-linked computer in a common area is fine. You can keep an eye on him, he won't be staying up all night surfing or LOLing. You can tell him to get off the computer. That seems like a better option than a technical solution that he'll get around or resent you for.
posted by TimeFactor at 10:28 PM on December 21, 2004
A lot of responses seem most concerned about limiting masturbation. That is a waste of time and unhealthy. 14 -year olds masturbate. A lot. Get used to it.
I'd be more concerned about a kid getting swept up in the various ways to waste time that a computer provides: mindless net surfing, pointless IMing (LOL OMG ROFL, etc. - digital noise instead of conversation), video games, Metafilter.
That being said, I wouldn't give a 14 year old net access in his own room. A net-linked computer in a common area is fine. You can keep an eye on him, he won't be staying up all night surfing or LOLing. You can tell him to get off the computer. That seems like a better option than a technical solution that he'll get around or resent you for.
posted by TimeFactor at 10:28 PM on December 21, 2004
A naive person of any age on the internet is a scary thing, so the most important concern is to teach him to be a sophisticated user. The number one rule for him to remember is that people lie. All the time. They lie about who they are. They lie about what they've done. They'll boast about all sorts of things that aren't true, and recommend that you try these things, too. And everybody is trying to figure out how to get your money or bust your machine. Personally, I wish some of my friends would have had a computer in their room when they were fourteen, and a smart parent to teach them how to use it responsibly. The step you are about to take is the internet "prep school" (or boot camp!) stage, and the great thing is that after your son graduates, he will go on to be an internet grad student, then a Phd, at which point he will be teaching you all sorts of things you need to know about computers/internet, and that's when your wise (personal) investment at this stage really pays off!
*Wishes MotorNeuron's son a very merry Christmas, and advises him to send dad's credit card number to the email address he will find on my user page*
posted by taz at 11:59 PM on December 21, 2004
*Wishes MotorNeuron's son a very merry Christmas, and advises him to send dad's credit card number to the email address he will find on my user page*
posted by taz at 11:59 PM on December 21, 2004
As a recently minted 19 year old (and MeFite), I feel I must chime in.
I'd like to note that there are a ton of NSFW links out there that aren't labelled as such, as well as a remarkable number of pages that, while innocuous, may not appear that way to a casual glance from across the room. For instance, I recently ran into a massive Leisure Suit Larry ad at GameFAQS.com, which otherwise has no objectionable content. Further, lots of links via IM aren't well labelled. If you opt to put the PC in a public place, please situate it so that it's semiprivate, and the kid won't freak out about possibly being incriminated without doing anything wrong.
As far as filtering: if it can access anything, it can access everything. I've done my share of skirting some rather draconian lock downs on school PCs (unable to download files, unable to right click throughout the entire system [apparently there's a group policy that will do this], unable to use Explorer or the Run command, local and proxy based filtering, etc.), and the only real impact of the tools was as an annoyance.
In my case, I've always been the most tech savvy family member, and I'm an only child. I authored my first webpage at 9, and built my first computer at 12. The PC went in my room with one condition: If I give them reason to distrust me, it moves to a public place. This was good, and I can't express the benefit of being able to look up and learn about whatever whims hit me. Yes, I looked at lots of porn. Yes, I saw puppy fisting, and yes I did get into things I shouldn't have. I was a music distributor my freshman year before napster hit big (I regret that), and I had a massive cache of warez until just recently (mainly because it was there, and I could, which I've thankfully grown out of). But, in the end, I feel like I came out just fine, and had the awesome benefit of being comfortable and skilled with computers.
Give him good places to jump off (DMOZ, Wikipedia, MetaFilter even), and let him go hog wild.
And yes, please please please instill in him the importance of not releasing personal information online, and that everyone lies. Over a game of Prodigy Internet Checkers back when I was 10 or so I ended up telling the nice lady I was playing that happened to live in Nashville that "Oh, really? My grandparents live there too! Their names are such and such and so and so, and maybe you know them! They live near this or that!"
But then again, being 14, and being of the generation he is, I think your son will probably already have a decent grasp on that.
posted by SemiSophos at 12:22 AM on December 22, 2004
I'd like to note that there are a ton of NSFW links out there that aren't labelled as such, as well as a remarkable number of pages that, while innocuous, may not appear that way to a casual glance from across the room. For instance, I recently ran into a massive Leisure Suit Larry ad at GameFAQS.com, which otherwise has no objectionable content. Further, lots of links via IM aren't well labelled. If you opt to put the PC in a public place, please situate it so that it's semiprivate, and the kid won't freak out about possibly being incriminated without doing anything wrong.
As far as filtering: if it can access anything, it can access everything. I've done my share of skirting some rather draconian lock downs on school PCs (unable to download files, unable to right click throughout the entire system [apparently there's a group policy that will do this], unable to use Explorer or the Run command, local and proxy based filtering, etc.), and the only real impact of the tools was as an annoyance.
In my case, I've always been the most tech savvy family member, and I'm an only child. I authored my first webpage at 9, and built my first computer at 12. The PC went in my room with one condition: If I give them reason to distrust me, it moves to a public place. This was good, and I can't express the benefit of being able to look up and learn about whatever whims hit me. Yes, I looked at lots of porn. Yes, I saw puppy fisting, and yes I did get into things I shouldn't have. I was a music distributor my freshman year before napster hit big (I regret that), and I had a massive cache of warez until just recently (mainly because it was there, and I could, which I've thankfully grown out of). But, in the end, I feel like I came out just fine, and had the awesome benefit of being comfortable and skilled with computers.
Give him good places to jump off (DMOZ, Wikipedia, MetaFilter even), and let him go hog wild.
And yes, please please please instill in him the importance of not releasing personal information online, and that everyone lies. Over a game of Prodigy Internet Checkers back when I was 10 or so I ended up telling the nice lady I was playing that happened to live in Nashville that "Oh, really? My grandparents live there too! Their names are such and such and so and so, and maybe you know them! They live near this or that!"
But then again, being 14, and being of the generation he is, I think your son will probably already have a decent grasp on that.
posted by SemiSophos at 12:22 AM on December 22, 2004
I'd rather have a fourteen year old watch a puppy being fisted and come to grips with the fact that human sexuality is a dark, fermenting thing than know that they're always liable to being watched.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't think porn has a pedagogical value, but the American way of averting one's eyes and pretending the world is a happy hand-holding place infantilizes the public. There has been interesting investigations done on the Disneyfication of European folk-tales, which were originally full of disaster and gore into everything-works-out morality plays -- it creates a nation of emotional toddlers that later on operate politically on a "good guys vs. bad guys, good will triumph" mentality.
The world isn't a happy place. No parent wants their child to come face-to-face with horror, but these encounters are a part of becoming an adult. Kids can take a lot. The culture of overprotection, of creating a perfect environment for kids where all stimulus broadcasts lukewarm congeniality and large, looming parent figures to hide the bad stuff. No wonder people vote for a daddy figure who will make the bad guys go away.
The other thing is: they see it anyways. If their environment is over-precious and climate-controlled, the encounter becomes much more problematic and people develop clandestine fascination with the "forbidden".
The ulterior message that gets communicated here -- well -- I'll quote Hicks on Cops: "--So you'll know that state power will win. 'We'll bust your house down as we'll fucking bust you anytime we want.'"
Give him the goddamn internet access and try not to think about it.
posted by ori at 12:37 AM on December 22, 2004
Don't get me wrong -- I don't think porn has a pedagogical value, but the American way of averting one's eyes and pretending the world is a happy hand-holding place infantilizes the public. There has been interesting investigations done on the Disneyfication of European folk-tales, which were originally full of disaster and gore into everything-works-out morality plays -- it creates a nation of emotional toddlers that later on operate politically on a "good guys vs. bad guys, good will triumph" mentality.
The world isn't a happy place. No parent wants their child to come face-to-face with horror, but these encounters are a part of becoming an adult. Kids can take a lot. The culture of overprotection, of creating a perfect environment for kids where all stimulus broadcasts lukewarm congeniality and large, looming parent figures to hide the bad stuff. No wonder people vote for a daddy figure who will make the bad guys go away.
The other thing is: they see it anyways. If their environment is over-precious and climate-controlled, the encounter becomes much more problematic and people develop clandestine fascination with the "forbidden".
The ulterior message that gets communicated here -- well -- I'll quote Hicks on Cops: "--So you'll know that state power will win. 'We'll bust your house down as we'll fucking bust you anytime we want.'"
Give him the goddamn internet access and try not to think about it.
posted by ori at 12:37 AM on December 22, 2004
I guess what I'm trying to say is: encountering horrible things is a neccessary part of thinking critically. Most of us can recall some unpleasant encounters from our childhood, and we turned out fine, but when we become parents, we suddenly think our kids will grow up rotten if he or she is exposed than to questionable things. It's a bizzare Christian thing, this "see no evil, hear no evil" -- the notion that evil neccessarily rubs off on you. You can't surgically seperate the good from the bad -- not just technically, on the internet -- but also in life. Kids choose to live a life based on encounters with a wide range of human experiences. It may make you shudder to think about, but you should suck it up and give him unrestricted access, I think.
posted by ori at 12:48 AM on December 22, 2004
posted by ori at 12:48 AM on December 22, 2004
I think, in a nutshell, if you trust your son enough to be able to put a PC in his room, then you don't need to do anything else. If he can't be trusted (too much porn, piracy, or just likely to use the damn thing too often) then you shouldn't let him have a PC in his room. And the fact that you need to ask here implies that it's probably the latter, in this case.
I think ascullion hit the nail on the head.
Although for what it's worth, ori's right, a 14 year old is fully capable of making their own mistakes on the internet (and learning from them/dealing with the consequences).
Unless you've given him a credit card...then I'd have some concerns.
posted by juv3nal at 7:13 AM on December 22, 2004
I think ascullion hit the nail on the head.
Although for what it's worth, ori's right, a 14 year old is fully capable of making their own mistakes on the internet (and learning from them/dealing with the consequences).
Unless you've given him a credit card...then I'd have some concerns.
posted by juv3nal at 7:13 AM on December 22, 2004
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We have our computers in public areas of the house (family room, our bedroom), but other than that, have no other controls on them. Just my view; YMMV.
posted by Doohickie at 11:14 AM on December 21, 2004