Advice for a non-believer interested in dating a woman with a solid christian background?

August 10, 2009 7:00 PM

I am quite taken by a very quality woman - one catch.. she has a degree in theology and is saving herself for marrage. It's early to tell, but let's say she's the one for me.. is there even hope? Advice from people in inter-faith relationships?

I am in my late 20s, and have a dating past of several long-term and rewarding relationships. I've never been very good at or much enjoyed casual/uncommitted dating. It's also not what I'm looking for anymore.

I am an agnostic I suppose, solid values but no faith in a greater power.

I have been on 3 dates with a very quality woman.. beautiful, charming, and quite a catch indeed. So far we have had a really good time together and I am remarkably taken by her smile.

She has a very christian background, and that still plays out in components of her life. She was thoughful enough to bring up early in our dating that she's a virgin and is saving herself for marrage.
It isn't because of firm religous beliefs or because the bible says so, more because of her chaste history, and wanting to have that for her husband since she still can offer that.

I can see marrage in my future, and very well could be to a quality woman like her. I would also not want to make such a decision lightly and would want to spend several years really getting to know my partner and what our life would be like together. Part of this would usually include a healthy sex life.

1) It's hard to love someone and not be able to satisfy them the way you want to.
2) I would usually prefer that someone has had a chance to learn and explore and have a mature sexuality. Virginity is a may sound fun, but i'd prefer someone who's excited to share their kinks rather then find out they have none


Also, if I WERE to marry this woman, she is christian and that is a big basis of how she makes decisions and handles and appreciates life. Does anybody have insight over whether this is a major barrier in a relationship? In starting a family?

posted by anonymous to human relations (41 comments total)

Can you live without sex for the rest of your married life? Because that is what could happen if she finds out that she doesn't like it after you tie the knot.

Besides, 3 dates is not a good enough data set for a lifelong decision. See how it plays out for a while.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 7:10 PM on August 10

What if you marry her and find our your sexual compatibility is nil?

Divorce?

Move on, find someone else. As nice as she sounds, she does not sound like the right woman for you.
posted by jayder at 7:10 PM on August 10

one catch.. she has a degree in theology and is saving herself for marrage. It's early to tell, but let's say she's the one for me.. is there even hope?

The catch seems to be...she isn't the one for you.

And no, there is no hope unless you hope to tear her from a very important part of her own life to satisfy yourself. And if you really want that, then you don't actually love her, because you're not valuing her needs at all.

Sorry.
posted by InsanePenguin at 7:10 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

If she were that committed a Christian she wouldn't be going out with you, as the Bible teaches against being "unequally yoked."

That having been said, it still sounds like the two of you are fundamentally imcompatable.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:15 PM on August 10 [5 favorites]

Does anybody have insight over whether this is a major barrier in a relationship?

This, second only to a wide gap in intellectual curiosity between partners, might be the barrier. The problem isn't that she's religious and you aren't. The problem is that there's an extremely important side of each other you don't get to see until after you've made a deep, binding, legal commitment. I'm not going to do a car analogy because I don't want to come off as crude, so analogize it to a potential roomate or long-term tennis doubles partner or whatever: would you take a much bigger plunge based on even less information about that person's important qualities?

TL;DR: Get thee to a boozery.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:18 PM on August 10

I dated a guy like that. For about five months. It was just...frustrating. (and not only sexually
).

3 dates isn't a lot, though.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:20 PM on August 10

My personal bias is that if one partner is deeply attached to their religion, the other partner needs to value that and be able to actively support her in her faith. I know there are plenty of marriages where one partner is active in their faith and the other doesn't care but it can make things feel lonely for the religious partner and guilt-provoking in the non-religious one. This gets multiplied once there are children since people who may be tolerant about their partner's beliefs often find that they care quite a bit more about what is taught to their children.

Add in your specific concerns about virginity and I think dating this wonderful woman would most likely lead to heart-break.
posted by metahawk at 7:23 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

Just date her. See how it works out without the sex. Don't expect any, and be open to whatever may happen. If you're happy without it before marriage, perhaps you'll be happy without it /after/ marriage, even if it works.

Curious though ... how old is she?
posted by mr. remy at 7:23 PM on August 10

After three dates, you're trying to work out a future with someone whose beliefs, life choices, and sexuality differ fundamentally from yours? This sounds like infatuation. Possibly even infatuation because a real, lasting, committed relationship would be impossible.

That said, if you really want to pursue this, you need to talk honestly with her rather than Internet people. Find out the extent to which she is willing to be involved with (even committed to) a person of a different belief system from her own. Talk to her about your own opinions, preferences, and plans regarding sex and marriage.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:26 PM on August 10

What metahawk said.

Also, she's either really serious about her faith and will only marry (and have sex with) someone who shares her beliefs, or she's holding onto her virginity as a way to keep control of all the power in her relationships. In either case, you lose.
posted by oinopaponton at 7:28 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

I'm a committed atheist who likes sex, and I don't see this as as an issue that makes or breaks the possibility of a relationship. But three dates isn't enough to really know she's the one. Give the relationship more time to see how things work out before you start pondering this question seriously.

Can you guys still explore your sexual relationship without taking her v-card? Where does she draw the line? Heavy petting? Oral sex? What theological justification does she give for drawing the line where she does? How do you feel about these justifications; do you think they carry some weight, or do you find them ridiculous? If she's studying theology at a graduate level, her faith is probably a nuanced, pervasive, and central aspect of her life. It's going to inform all aspects of her existence, not just her sex life. Keep dating, and see how else her religion plays into her life, and note your comfort level with it.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 7:31 PM on August 10 [7 favorites]

How are you defining "very quality woman?"

"Quality" is relational to the needs and compatibility with the person/people who is/who are doing the qualifying.

It doesn't sound like your qualitative needs are mutually meshing...

(fyi, i am the product of a mixed marriage in many senses of the term, including where one of the parents converted religions. while their marriage was mostly fine, everyone else had an unsolicited opinion - you would not only marry each other, but marry into each others' circles. please keep this in mind. ymmv.)
posted by raztaj at 7:32 PM on August 10

I had a friend in college who was "saving herself for marriage" while having a long-term relationship with a guy. And when I asked her about these issues, i.e. how do you know if you are sexually compatible, etc. She said that basically, they had done everything but PIV sex and so that is enough to tell her that they are sexually compatible. Which I can see--being able to tell sexual compatiblity without PIV sex--but when you are doing all kinds of other stuff, it begs the question what is the point anyway.

After dating this guy who was perfect for her in every way for like three years, he finally confessed to her that when he was 15, he had sex with a classmate one time, in his basement, without even taking their clothes off and it lasted all of three minutes. And that was it for her, she dumped him. He was devastated. He really loved her and wanted to share that part of life with her on her terms and apologized profusely for not telling her about it. I asked if it was because of the lying about his virginity or the actual fact that he was not a virgin. And she said she could forgive the lying but not the whole virgin part. Weird, I thought.

I only bring this up as an example that their problem wasn't really sex itself, just a fundamental difference in values and how they thought and processed things. I don't really see your problem as being so much the sex itself as being that you both are thinking about things in an entirely different way, it seems. I don't see much coming out of this long-term.
posted by Bueller at 7:35 PM on August 10

"and wanting to have that for her husband since she still can offer that."

ok. i figured out why that bothers me a little. it sounds like she believes being a virgin is an asset.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 7:43 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]

I hope you are using "quality" with some tinge of irony. Are you perhaps wearing a trucker hat and vintage T-shirt as you pose this question?

"Quality" is for goods. "Nice," "lovely" or "captivating" might be more apt (or are they enrolling Real Dolls in divinity school these days?). Date some more--by which I mean other people. She's not the one.

Sorry!
posted by Admiral Haddock at 7:50 PM on August 10 [5 favorites]

You're really asking the wrong group of people. Metafilter tends to trend towards the licentious. Keep dating her if you like her company and respect her wishes. If it gets to the point where you can't stand it, then rethink your options.
posted by Burhanistan at 7:54 PM on August 10 [10 favorites]

Having totally differing views on religion, especially when one person is devout and one is not, is not just a difference like one likes sports, one hates them, or even a difference in political views. Her religion colors every decision she makes, and every choice she makes. If that filter for her is not there for you, you can anticipate many differences down the line. Sex being a big one, but definitely not the only one. Growing up with many devout Christians of the ilk your date seems to be, I really cannot see a relationship working out with someone like that and someone who is not religious.
posted by ishotjr at 7:58 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't keep dating her and learning more about her... but be a little wary of your emotional state because your infatuation might be playing a bit of a trick on your brain. By which I mean: You've met a girl you really like, so ordinarily your mind would turn to thoughts of boning. Ahh! But in this case - boning requires marriage. So that might make you think thoughts of forever because that's the coupling of ideas that she's imposing. It could be that if she were a "typical" young woman (boning ahoy!) you wouldn't be as infatuated (considering marriage!) as you are. You wouldn't need to think about it, not after three dates.
posted by moxiedoll at 8:02 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

it sounds like she believes being a virgin is an asset.

Um, yes. This is a major part of what she and the OP would need to discuss, ultimately: she believes that being a virgin is an asset one brings to marriage; the OP believes that being sexually experienced is an asset one brings to marriage.

The standard contemporary conservative Christian reasoning is that sex is so special and holy, meant to join the married couple to each other, that pre-marital sexual experience distracts and even sabotages the married couple's holy, intimate connection to one another by bringing other people and expectations into what should be a closed circuit between the husband and wife.

I'm not saying that the above is correct or the only way to do marriage and sex, or that I believe in it, or that it'll be what this woman believes forever, it's just what you're up against right now, Anonymous.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:07 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]

I'm agnostic. My wife is pretty Christian, on the church board, volunteering etc. We celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary today. It works because neither of is trying to convince the other of who is right or wrong. Occasionally I go to church with her, meet the regulars. They're nice people.

As to the sex, that's up for your decide whether you'd like to years without it and the only way you're going to get it is by marriage.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:14 PM on August 10

Find out where she stands on the whole "equally yoked" thing. It could very easily be a dealbreaker for her that the man she marries is a practicing, believing Christian, and probably one theologically compatable with her beliefs. So the decision may not be up to you; instead of asking if she's right for you, you ought to find out if you're right for her.
posted by scalefree at 8:19 PM on August 10

There are some Christians who do not believe in the "unequally yoked" business, and do not hate themselves. It will take more than 3 dates to know exactly what her beliefs are, and how much she wants them to overlap with yours.

People who "wait until marriage" have varying ideas of which activities this includes/excludes. This goes as far as people having anal and oral sex, because to them those things don't "count." It will take more than 3 dates to find out where a person's sexual boundaries are.

Some couples of different beliefs have children, and this poses no problems; some couples cannot do this successfully. It will take more than 3 dates to find out how your child-rearing ideas match with her ideas.
posted by Houstonian at 8:20 PM on August 10

I was a in-remission Catholic boy and my wife-to-be was (is) a born-again Christian girl (not the "beat you over the head withit and condemn you to hell if you don't get right with god" flavor of born-again, mind you. The "gives me personal grounding and inner-peace" type.) I was in my last year of college and, of course, had become accustomed to regular casual sex. She had graduated and was a virgin and was waiting for her wedding night to give it up.

We were in love.

And, yes, dear friends, I happily survived the two years of courtship without sex. Happily, too, that, apparently, at some point during the courtship, she determined that oral sex was, in fact, NOT sex.

I am still an in-remission Catholic boy and she's still my born-again Christian girl.
We will be celebrating our 29th anniversary in November.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:34 PM on August 10 [8 favorites]

If she's studying theology at a graduate level, her faith is probably a nuanced, pervasive, and central aspect of her life. It's going to inform all aspects of her existence, not just her sex life.

This.

Experiences (anecdotally of course) like Brandon Blatcher's are the exception, not the rule. Because if one half of a life partnership is really seriously into their faith, that belief system will pervade every aspect of their lives. Money. Children. Sex. Community. Sex. Charity. Life.

There are people who've saved themselves for marriage who are capable of mature, fulfilling sexually healthy relationships. But pre-marriage "virgin" experience and post-knot expectations vary as widely as human sexuality as a whole. So to say that this particular woman will be hung up about her body, or restricts sexuality to an unwholesome duty, or restrained kinkster is not for the hivemind to discern. The probability leans toward the sex-just-for-babies camp, but one never knows.

In any case, sexuality is only one concern of many. The Bible has lots to say about a LOT of stuff, best to figure out how this woman applies her faith to all areas of her life, not just sex.

(As a former pastor prodigy, I can tell you my sex life changed radically post-christiandom, but so did a lot of other stuff.)
posted by whycurious at 8:35 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

Thorzdad's story is worth paying attention to. The vast majority of 'saving themselves' Christians I have known almost always end up a) changing their minds and b) using the most creative definitions of both sex and virginity to justify some hot love.

Now, this may not be the case with your girl, but even if you have that conversation now, she may change her mind when you've been going steady for months and necking for what feels like a year.

I think the best course of action is to keep on keeping on. If things become too stressful, time for a rethink. Going on dates is precisely not marriage so you can change your mind.
posted by smoke at 9:02 PM on August 10 [1 favorite]

"Quality woman," ew.

Okay, apart from that: Yes, marriages can work between people with radically different religious beliefs. I am quite religious and my husband hates organized religion with the hatred of a thousand burning nuns.

OTOH, my religious commitments don't include a commitment to avoiding any kind of sexual activities outside of marriage. So we didn't face that particular hurdle in our courtship.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:10 PM on August 10

As for "interfaith marriages with kids," it depends. I know people for whom it works well, including an Episcopal priest married to a Jewish man whose children are being raised Jewish.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:12 PM on August 10

If she were that committed a Christian she wouldn't be going out with you, as the Bible teaches against being "unequally yoked."

Or "unevenly yoked", or even more loosely, "mismatched with unbelievers" depends on the translation of 2 Corinthians 6:14. Probably true in the case of this Christian you're infatuated with, in that she probably believes she is going against this verse, but "unequally yoked" doesn't directly refer to marriage. For example, the Catholic Church does take note of this verse, but only stipulates that the children be raised Catholic. It's a verse that definitely speaks of separation between believers and non-believers, but I can think of other areas in life where many Christians are grossly violating this other than the realm of marriage. There are some posters on Metafilter (including St Alia of the Bunnies) who constantly cite Christianity and the Bible as monolithic entities and it does a disservice to its diversity of interpretations and expressions. As Martin Luther said:

"The fifth impediment is unbelief; that is, I may not marry a Turk, a Jew, or a heretic. I marvel that the blasphemous tyrants are not in their hearts ashamed to place themselves in such direct contradiction to the clear text of Paul in I Corinthians 7 [:12-13], where he says, "If a heathen wife or husband consents to live with a Christian spouse, the Christian should not get a divorce." And St. Peter, in I Peter 3 [:1], says that Christian wives should behave so well that they thereby convert their non-Christian husbands; as did Monica, the mother of St. Augustine.

Know therefore that marriage is an outward, bodily thing, like any other worldly undertaking. Just as I may eat, drink, sleep, walk, ride with, buy from, speak to, and deal with a heathen, Jew, Turk, or heretic, so I may also marry and continue in wedlock with him. Pay no attention to the precepts of those fools who forbid it. You will find plenty of Christians, and indeed the greater part of them, who are worse in their secret unbelief than any Jew, heathen, Turk, or heretic. A heathen is just as much a man or a woman-God's good creation-as St. Peter, St. Paul, and St. Lucy, not to speak of a slack and spurious Christian."

posted by Gnatcho at 11:00 PM on August 10 [2 favorites]

Interfaith marriages can work well (I know a few), but you have to accept each other. Her Christianity is part of the package-- you can't be undermining it, or hoping it will go away. You have to be comfortable with skipping sex till marriage, politely dealing with her Christian friends or family, accepting that she's going to spend Sunday mornings (or whatever) in church. You would have to carefully work out how to deal with kids-- expect her to want to bring them up as Christians.

If that sounds like a hassle, you aren't right for each other.

As for sexual compatibility, there are ways to explore this before marriage-- talking, for instance. Of course there are things she won't know, but it should be clear enough what her overall level of interest is.
posted by zompist at 11:04 PM on August 10

A lot of this depends on how strong her convictions are in the heat of hot petting action. The "saving herself" line might be an intellectual position that she has never needed to test in practice. And as many have said, sex up to but not including penetration can be pretty satisfying anyway.

What is her romantic history? I would keep dating her and see how things go.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:58 AM on August 11

I took the term "quality" (as per Urban Dictionary's second definition, which implies the poster is probably British) to be a slang word, like "cool" or "amazing" -- not something to be judged about. Light up, guys.

I know a lot of females (atheists or not) who were firm about not having sex before marriage, right up to the point where they were in long term relationships -- they changed their minds. So if she is particularly romantically inexperienced, all you might have to do is wait...
posted by moiraine at 2:58 AM on August 11

A) she has a degree in theology and is saving herself for marriage.

Plus

B) I would usually prefer that someone has had a chance to learn and explore and have a mature sexuality. Virginity is a may sound fun, but i'd prefer someone who's excited to share their kinks rather then find out they have none

Neither of you are right or wrong, but you are not right for each other.
posted by like_neon at 4:14 AM on August 11 [1 favorite]

For what it's worth, academics at the Australian National University "tracked the relationships and characteristics of nearly 2500 couples between 2001 and 2007", and found that "country of birth, religious background and education levels" were not factors that contributed to an increased chance of marriage breakdown.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/study-reveals-key-to-a-lasting-marriage-20090713-dih4.html
posted by surenoproblem at 5:42 AM on August 11

Think further down the road. Are you okay with having your children raised Christian? Are you okay with having your lifestyle affected by church? Religious differences cause many problems in marriages, and it's not just sex.
posted by theora55 at 6:32 AM on August 11

In terms of "starting a family," I think the important things are (1) assume she wants to raise the children with the values she's devoted to, and (2) determine whether you can endorse that. I mean, I personally wouldn't want my daughter raised to think of premarital sex as lowering her value to her future husband. That's just a message that I don't like in itself and that also is easily garbled into something even uglier. There are doubtless other messages I'd imagine a devoutly Christian spouse would send to our children that I wouldn't like (just as a potential example, a heavy emphasis on gender roles, with the attendant message that gay is not OK).

Basically, the problem with raising children with someone who doesn't share your values is that you want your children to learn your values. OTOH, religion is not the only window into values, and even two people devoted to different religions can share the same values and therefore have little difficulty negotiating the issue of what you're teaching your children.

The probability leans toward the sex-just-for-babies camp, but one never knows.

This may be a little outdated. The young mothers I know who are devout Christians are all heavily influenced by a message that I think has been delivered by a lot of outlets lately -- to "never say no," that an active sex life and enthusiastic sex partner are important to men's fulfillment in marriage, and a good wife should provide that for her husband. (Like I said, heavy emphasis on gender roles.)
posted by palliser at 6:34 AM on August 11

What Burhanistan said, basically. I knew when I saw the question that there would be a preponderance of "OMG she's Christian and she won't have sex right away? Run!" It might be worth pointing out that it's only very recently that women have not been expected to "save themselves for marriage," and yet somehow people managed to get married and have good relationships despite the devastating drawback of not having gotten to screw like bunnies from the moment they met.

If you can't deal with the Christianity or the lack of premarital sex, then obviously you should look elsewhere. But it's silly to think that the relationship can't work because of those factors. Plenty of good relationships have survived both religious imbalance and lack of premarital sex; I strongly suspect, for instance, that my own parents' marriage met both conditions, and yet it flourished like the green bay tree. If you love her (as opposed to being "quite taken by" her), I suggest you give the relationship a chance and see where it goes. There's really no telling in advance.
posted by languagehat at 7:55 AM on August 11 [4 favorites]

I just wanted to add that the MOST conservative Christians don't tend to approve of women studying theology. So basically... talk to her and learn from her what she believes rather than taking the word of people on the Internet. Christians are much less homogenous than popularly believed.
posted by oblique red at 11:02 AM on August 11

I've known plenty both guys and girls who were waiting till marriage because of religion, but that all went right out the window when they found someone they actually *wanted* to have sex with, someone they dated more seriously for a long time. And there's nothing wrong with that, people think they know what they want - sure, saving yourself for marriage sounds great - but changing their mind is OK too as situations change. Not saying she would do that, and not saying you should date her with the hope that she'll change, but find out about her past dating history. If she's never dated anyone for more than 2 months then she might not even know how what's it's like to want to physically be with someone. If she's in a good healthy trusting relationship she might change her mind.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 12:37 PM on August 11

Also, if I WERE to marry this woman, she is christian and that is a big basis of how she makes decisions and handles and appreciates life. Does anybody have insight over whether this is a major barrier in a relationship? In starting a family

Yes, it is a major, MAJOR barrier. My biological parents split because my father "found" Jesus and insisted that my mother also convert, lest she go to hell. Now, my father's a little nutso, but I know that there is immense pressure within the Christian community not to become "unequally yoked" with non-believers. That is, either to have relationships *with* Christians or to get partners to *become* Christians.

You have to at least assume that if she has a degree in theology, even if she doesn't want to convert *you,* she will want to raise her children in the Church.

Huge, huge, HUGE barrier that has proved insurmountable to many a couple. May be best for both of you, since you've only been on *three* dates if you let things lie for a bit and see exactly what kind of relationship develops before you start worrying about whether or not she's going to be feeding you communion wafers. Who knows, you might manage to make it work, but there's absolutely no good reason to try and *force* it at this stage.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:09 PM on August 11

I know that there is immense pressure within the Christian community not to become "unequally yoked" with non-believers

Within some Christian communities, absolutely. Within my own Christian community, I think interfaith marriages (or person of faith/atheist marriages) are more the rule than the exception.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:50 PM on August 11

And I think that's something important, that is sometimes overlooked. Some PEOPLE are intolerant of the beliefs of others (within a marriage, or even just in general), and some are not. It's an overlapping of the tolerant-intolerant spectrum overlaid on the religious belief. Some Christians only want to be married to other Christians, but that's true too of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists. For others (of any or no faith), this is not true.
posted by Houstonian at 2:06 AM on August 12 [1 favorite]