Big inn Japan (well, not so big, actually)
August 6, 2009 12:58 AM Subscribe
Help my friend name his inn in Kyoto
Good friend (Japanese, Kyoto native) is quitting a nowhere sales manager job at Bandai and moving back to Kyoto to open a small inn, mainly because he and his wife love meeting new people. He is refurbishing a very old structure, and the crew working on it is applying traditional Japanese construction techniques (they're even using as many of the original structure's beams as remain serviceable). The end product, except for updated essentials like higher doorways/ceilings, modern facilities, WiFi, etc., will have much of the "authentic Japan" feel that people often want out of their Kyoto experience.
He's open to welcoming all sorts of patrons, but is most eager to attract backpackers (both Japanese and foreigners) in their 20s-30s who enjoy meeting other travelers, share an interest in all things Kyoto, and have a a reasonably flexible itinerary. Where he's struggling, is in coming up with an English name that captures the atmosphere and attracts/could be easily googled by the foreigner subset of his target clientele. The options he came up with on his own are:
- Kyoto Guesthouse Nishi-no-Kyo
- Kyoto Hostel Nishi-no-Kyo
Nishi-no-Kyo is the region (more between Kyoto and Nara than Kyoto, proper). My concerns about his choices are that "guesthouse," although not unheard of in Japan, might only help with attracting German guests, while "hostel" seems to be shooting for a younger age group than he really wants. At the same time, many foreigners may not be familiar with "ryokan," and "inn" seems a bit bland/nondescript. I appreciate that my perspective may be very much tied to my American roots, so if the above options seem reasonable to you as a speaker of a language/dialect other than American English, I'd like to know, but I'd also like alternative suggestions. Feel free to get wild & crazy, but I'm especially interested in alternatives for that middle word.
I don't want to fall afoul of the MeFi self-promotion guidelines, so I would also welcome responses to the throwaway e-mail address: kyotoinn@yahoo.co.jp.
Good friend (Japanese, Kyoto native) is quitting a nowhere sales manager job at Bandai and moving back to Kyoto to open a small inn, mainly because he and his wife love meeting new people. He is refurbishing a very old structure, and the crew working on it is applying traditional Japanese construction techniques (they're even using as many of the original structure's beams as remain serviceable). The end product, except for updated essentials like higher doorways/ceilings, modern facilities, WiFi, etc., will have much of the "authentic Japan" feel that people often want out of their Kyoto experience.
He's open to welcoming all sorts of patrons, but is most eager to attract backpackers (both Japanese and foreigners) in their 20s-30s who enjoy meeting other travelers, share an interest in all things Kyoto, and have a a reasonably flexible itinerary. Where he's struggling, is in coming up with an English name that captures the atmosphere and attracts/could be easily googled by the foreigner subset of his target clientele. The options he came up with on his own are:
- Kyoto Guesthouse Nishi-no-Kyo
- Kyoto Hostel Nishi-no-Kyo
Nishi-no-Kyo is the region (more between Kyoto and Nara than Kyoto, proper). My concerns about his choices are that "guesthouse," although not unheard of in Japan, might only help with attracting German guests, while "hostel" seems to be shooting for a younger age group than he really wants. At the same time, many foreigners may not be familiar with "ryokan," and "inn" seems a bit bland/nondescript. I appreciate that my perspective may be very much tied to my American roots, so if the above options seem reasonable to you as a speaker of a language/dialect other than American English, I'd like to know, but I'd also like alternative suggestions. Feel free to get wild & crazy, but I'm especially interested in alternatives for that middle word.
I don't want to fall afoul of the MeFi self-promotion guidelines, so I would also welcome responses to the throwaway e-mail address: kyotoinn@yahoo.co.jp.
Response by poster: armage: thanks for the ideas, and apologies to everyone for failing to note that he has landed on a Japanese name for it: Yururiyado Nishi-no-Kyo. The Yururi part, he tells me, is there to underscore the easygoing/free itinerary/relaxation aspect. My guess is that this point "sells" better with Japanese backpackers than the authenticity aspect, which they would be more familiar with and, possibly, less impressed by.
As to location, I only know that it's about a half-hour by train from Kyoto Station toward Nara. I'm not very familiar with Kansai, I'm afraid.
posted by Bixby23 at 1:26 AM on August 6, 2009
As to location, I only know that it's about a half-hour by train from Kyoto Station toward Nara. I'm not very familiar with Kansai, I'm afraid.
posted by Bixby23 at 1:26 AM on August 6, 2009
New Ryokan Kyoto
Everybody travelling to Japan with half a brain in their head has learned the business hotel / pension / ryokan stratification. This is always covered in every guide book.
"Ryokan" is actually hard to say (it's one of the few Japanese sounds I CANNOT get perfectly right no matter how hard I try, but it also has the most pleasant associations, at the high end. At the low end, they can be truly horrible decrepit pits. Which is why I suggest the New, since that it was he is creating, a new ryokan.
Great idea. I'll shoot you an mefimail if I ever get back there.
posted by @troy at 1:32 AM on August 6, 2009
Everybody travelling to Japan with half a brain in their head has learned the business hotel / pension / ryokan stratification. This is always covered in every guide book.
"Ryokan" is actually hard to say (it's one of the few Japanese sounds I CANNOT get perfectly right no matter how hard I try, but it also has the most pleasant associations, at the high end. At the low end, they can be truly horrible decrepit pits. Which is why I suggest the New, since that it was he is creating, a new ryokan.
Great idea. I'll shoot you an mefimail if I ever get back there.
posted by @troy at 1:32 AM on August 6, 2009
Is it even possible for him to have a Japanese name and an English name? Why not just explain what Yururi Yado Nishi no Kyo is in English on the front page? Like.. (I'd either separate Yururiyado into two words or hyphenate it, e.g. Yururi-yado.) If this is strictly for SEO purposes, how about:
Yururi Yado Nishi no Kyo : A relaxed, friendly Japanese inn near Kyoto <- your page title
Located in a beautiful, quiet area (if it is) just minutes from the center of Kyoto, we welcome guests from around the world
etc.
And, he should make sure the English on his site is grammatically correct and so on.
Good luck to him! ご発展とご成功をお祈りいたします。
posted by thread_makimaki at 2:39 AM on August 6, 2009
Yururi Yado Nishi no Kyo : A relaxed, friendly Japanese inn near Kyoto <- your page title
Located in a beautiful, quiet area (if it is) just minutes from the center of Kyoto, we welcome guests from around the world
etc.
And, he should make sure the English on his site is grammatically correct and so on.
Good luck to him! ご発展とご成功をお祈りいたします。
posted by thread_makimaki at 2:39 AM on August 6, 2009
Seconding the comment regarding travellers going to Japan with half a clue are aware of the whole Ryokan thing. My wife and I travelled last year and we quickly learnt from the internet and guidebooks what Ryokan's were, and that they would be what we wanted to stay in. Definitiely have Ryokan in the title is my advice.
posted by Gratishades at 2:51 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by Gratishades at 2:51 AM on August 6, 2009
When I went to Japan recently I spent a night in a Ryokan but it was called an inn in all the advertising, and that actually confused me. I didn't know if I was going to get the traditional Ryokan experience I'd read about in every guide book and webpage (and therefore have some clue as to how to act) or something different with different rules. When I saw a listing for the place desribing it as a Ryokan I felt relieved.
So if it's a Ryokan then call it that, it's accessible to foriegners because it matches up with what's detailed in Lonely Planet and Rough Guide and whatever. Kyoto Ryokan Nishi-no-Kyo sounds nice to my Japanese-ignorant ear.
Of the two other choices you gave guesthouse would work since we're told repeatedly that Ryokan is a Japanese guest house anyway. If it's kind of a faux-Ryokan with some similar features but other more westernised aspects then guesthouse may be a more accurate description. Don't call it a hostel unless it has the dorm rooms and shared cooking facilities that you'd get in a youth hostel or similar, because that's what we think that name means.
posted by shelleycat at 3:41 AM on August 6, 2009
So if it's a Ryokan then call it that, it's accessible to foriegners because it matches up with what's detailed in Lonely Planet and Rough Guide and whatever. Kyoto Ryokan Nishi-no-Kyo sounds nice to my Japanese-ignorant ear.
Of the two other choices you gave guesthouse would work since we're told repeatedly that Ryokan is a Japanese guest house anyway. If it's kind of a faux-Ryokan with some similar features but other more westernised aspects then guesthouse may be a more accurate description. Don't call it a hostel unless it has the dorm rooms and shared cooking facilities that you'd get in a youth hostel or similar, because that's what we think that name means.
posted by shelleycat at 3:41 AM on August 6, 2009
I'm not sure what the point is of a Japanese name, other than faux-authenticity. It won't help with findability, and your entire (?) market is English-speaking.
Ryokan is indeed a good word to use, but that's as far as I'd go toward Japanese words.
For business sensibility, use the keywords that your traveling searchers will use. That means English and search terms. Hell, if "Kyoto Internet Ryokan" didn't sound so ridiculous, I'd recommend it, since I'm pretty sure that that wi-fi will be a big draw for travelers. (Modern amenities, traditional building, yadda yadda.)
As it is, I do strongly recommend "Kyoto Business Name with High Speed Internet" be the big bold title and page name for this inn's home page.
I am also jealous of your friend. Sounds like a great life choice.
posted by rokusan at 4:06 AM on August 6, 2009
Ryokan is indeed a good word to use, but that's as far as I'd go toward Japanese words.
For business sensibility, use the keywords that your traveling searchers will use. That means English and search terms. Hell, if "Kyoto Internet Ryokan" didn't sound so ridiculous, I'd recommend it, since I'm pretty sure that that wi-fi will be a big draw for travelers. (Modern amenities, traditional building, yadda yadda.)
As it is, I do strongly recommend "Kyoto Business Name with High Speed Internet" be the big bold title and page name for this inn's home page.
I am also jealous of your friend. Sounds like a great life choice.
posted by rokusan at 4:06 AM on August 6, 2009
I'm not sure what the point is of a Japanese name, other than faux-authenticity. It won't help with findability, and your entire (?) market is English-speaking.
Well, the hotel is located in Japan, and the future proprietor expects to attract a both Japanese and foreign clientele, so I think having a Japanese name is beneficial.
Why not just use the same name for both? Yururi (meaning "leisurely, relaxedly") is a bit hard for non-Japanese to pronounce, but I say that's part of the fun. It might even lead to a few conversations being started between guests. Since it's not truly a ryokan (is it?), I wouldn't go as far as to call it that. If there is a lot of competition nearby it could be an issue, but since it's 30 minutes outside central Kyoto (Uji?) I would focus more on selling the location and attractiveness of the hotel itself.
posted by armage at 4:31 AM on August 6, 2009
Well, the hotel is located in Japan, and the future proprietor expects to attract a both Japanese and foreign clientele, so I think having a Japanese name is beneficial.
Why not just use the same name for both? Yururi (meaning "leisurely, relaxedly") is a bit hard for non-Japanese to pronounce, but I say that's part of the fun. It might even lead to a few conversations being started between guests. Since it's not truly a ryokan (is it?), I wouldn't go as far as to call it that. If there is a lot of competition nearby it could be an issue, but since it's 30 minutes outside central Kyoto (Uji?) I would focus more on selling the location and attractiveness of the hotel itself.
posted by armage at 4:31 AM on August 6, 2009
Yes, if attracting Japanese is part of the goals then a Japanese name makes sense. I have trouble believing many Japanese would ever stay there, though. I may be missing something.
posted by rokusan at 5:00 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by rokusan at 5:00 AM on August 6, 2009
(i know this is a derail but) rokusan, quite a lot of Japanese people, especially in the 20-30s age range that is the target audience, would love to meet international travelers in a relaxed setting. That could be a selling point for the place. Besides, I don't see how he could survive just relying on non-J clientele, especially since he's not actually in Kyoto proper, in this economy, etc.
posted by thread_makimaki at 5:40 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by thread_makimaki at 5:40 AM on August 6, 2009
If the place offers ryokan-style service, call it an inn? Inn is a fine substitute. Inn conveys a bed and breakfast feel. I disagree about the familiarity of non-Japanese with ryokan. For many ryokan makes people think they are going to have to bathe naked with strangers. At the very least, in a ryokan one is in closer quarters with guests than one would be in a hotel.
Second, I'd avoid 西の京 (Nishi no kyo) in the name itself. They should aim for what sounds nice to the ear of customers, not for accuracy. "Nishinokyo" is a mouthful for the untrained mouth or ear. For that reason, "West Kyoto" I suggest works better in a name.
Kyoto address are notoriously difficult to read-- and find-- even for Japanese. As long as the brochures and ads spell out the full address in romaji and Japanese, the cab driver or the intrepid backpacker can use a map to find the inn's location.
So now I've got "West Kyoto" and "Inn." That conveys the place is friendly to tastes of Westerners. Now what you need is one Japanese word.
Yururi is kind of cute, so they could call it "West Kyoto Inn Yururi." It is really no more difficult to pronounce than ryokan.
More importantly, by including "Yururi" in the Japanese and English names, cab drivers will know that the Western passengers want to go to the same place Japanese passengers ask for. It'll also help Westerners get directions from locals from the nearest train station. Stray too far from the Japanese name and there will be all sorts of misunderstandings.
So some combination of "Inn Yururi-West Kyoto" or "West Kyoto Inn Yururi." I'd put Yururi after "Inn" because "Yururi Inn" is really is hard to say!
If they drop the yururi altogether from the Japanese name, for something similar but easier to say in English, they could reference something unique about their part of Nishinokyo or go for a pun: "rirakkusu inn リラックス・イン." But honestly I like Yururi.
Finally, I think this is a great idea, but I have one reservation your friends need to really think through. Japanese travelers need to know that the inn/ryokan/whatever caters to foreign tourists equally. As someone who traveled through Japan on the back of a motorcycle, staying in inns, spas, and Kampo no yado かんぽの宿 (Japan's best kept secret- state-run hotels that cater to old people), one foreigner isn't going to rattle the sensibilities of a hotel full of Japanese tourists, but half and half, or 3 to 1 Japanese to foreigners would definitely put Japanese guests on edge if that is not what they are expecting.
Intimate and close quarters does not equal friendliness in Japanese customs ordinarily, whereas it often does in many countries in the West. For instance, it would be odd for people eating a ryokan feast at one table to begin a conversation with those seated next to them in Japan, an unwelcome intrusion even, but pretty normal for Americans at least to make small talk with strangers. This is a point of confusion in many, many, inter-cultural relations involving Japan.
So most of all, your friends need to make sure the Japanese clientele they target are the surfer/backpacker easy-going type, or otherwise interested in being around foreigners. That's not usually the kind of Japanese tourist Kyoto attracts, so it will be interesting to see how this project evolves.
I hope my comments do not offend. They are based on years of experience in Kansai, traveling frugally with my Japanese boyfriend, often on the back of a motorcylce. We always received a warm reception wherever we went. However, I see how an inn targeting both Japanese and Western guests in Kyoto-- the stiffest (think Boston Brahmins) city in all of Japan-- could go horribly wrong.
posted by vincele at 6:25 AM on August 6, 2009
Second, I'd avoid 西の京 (Nishi no kyo) in the name itself. They should aim for what sounds nice to the ear of customers, not for accuracy. "Nishinokyo" is a mouthful for the untrained mouth or ear. For that reason, "West Kyoto" I suggest works better in a name.
Kyoto address are notoriously difficult to read-- and find-- even for Japanese. As long as the brochures and ads spell out the full address in romaji and Japanese, the cab driver or the intrepid backpacker can use a map to find the inn's location.
So now I've got "West Kyoto" and "Inn." That conveys the place is friendly to tastes of Westerners. Now what you need is one Japanese word.
Yururi is kind of cute, so they could call it "West Kyoto Inn Yururi." It is really no more difficult to pronounce than ryokan.
More importantly, by including "Yururi" in the Japanese and English names, cab drivers will know that the Western passengers want to go to the same place Japanese passengers ask for. It'll also help Westerners get directions from locals from the nearest train station. Stray too far from the Japanese name and there will be all sorts of misunderstandings.
So some combination of "Inn Yururi-West Kyoto" or "West Kyoto Inn Yururi." I'd put Yururi after "Inn" because "Yururi Inn" is really is hard to say!
If they drop the yururi altogether from the Japanese name, for something similar but easier to say in English, they could reference something unique about their part of Nishinokyo or go for a pun: "rirakkusu inn リラックス・イン." But honestly I like Yururi.
Finally, I think this is a great idea, but I have one reservation your friends need to really think through. Japanese travelers need to know that the inn/ryokan/whatever caters to foreign tourists equally. As someone who traveled through Japan on the back of a motorcycle, staying in inns, spas, and Kampo no yado かんぽの宿 (Japan's best kept secret- state-run hotels that cater to old people), one foreigner isn't going to rattle the sensibilities of a hotel full of Japanese tourists, but half and half, or 3 to 1 Japanese to foreigners would definitely put Japanese guests on edge if that is not what they are expecting.
Intimate and close quarters does not equal friendliness in Japanese customs ordinarily, whereas it often does in many countries in the West. For instance, it would be odd for people eating a ryokan feast at one table to begin a conversation with those seated next to them in Japan, an unwelcome intrusion even, but pretty normal for Americans at least to make small talk with strangers. This is a point of confusion in many, many, inter-cultural relations involving Japan.
So most of all, your friends need to make sure the Japanese clientele they target are the surfer/backpacker easy-going type, or otherwise interested in being around foreigners. That's not usually the kind of Japanese tourist Kyoto attracts, so it will be interesting to see how this project evolves.
I hope my comments do not offend. They are based on years of experience in Kansai, traveling frugally with my Japanese boyfriend, often on the back of a motorcylce. We always received a warm reception wherever we went. However, I see how an inn targeting both Japanese and Western guests in Kyoto-- the stiffest (think Boston Brahmins) city in all of Japan-- could go horribly wrong.
posted by vincele at 6:25 AM on August 6, 2009
To my ear, "guest house" is pretty much the same as "gaijin house," which is an association he wants to avoid. "Hostel" suggests rudimentary lodgings for younger folks, also doesn't quite sound like a match.
I suspect that most travellers in Japan do recognize the word "ryokan," and I endorse that. "Yururiyado" sounds wonderful, but is going to trip up a lot of non-natives—even just looking at it spelled out in romaji makes me a little cross-eyed.
posted by adamrice at 6:31 AM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I suspect that most travellers in Japan do recognize the word "ryokan," and I endorse that. "Yururiyado" sounds wonderful, but is going to trip up a lot of non-natives—even just looking at it spelled out in romaji makes me a little cross-eyed.
posted by adamrice at 6:31 AM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nthing the suggestion to include ryokan.
posted by ocherdraco at 6:50 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by ocherdraco at 6:50 AM on August 6, 2009
Instead of Nishi-no-kyo can they just use the name of whatever town they're in? When I hear Nishi-no-kyo I think something in nishikyoku or ukyoku - ie western parts of Kyoto city. Half an hour by train to Nara sounds like Kyotanabe or Kizugawa city. If I was thinking Kyoto and ended up in Kyotanabe city I'd be a bit annoyed. Reading vincele's suggestion of using West Kyoto rubs me the wrong way for the same reason.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:42 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:42 AM on August 6, 2009
Is it in the part of Nara-shi called Nishinokyo? Near Toshodaiji and Yakushiji? If I'm right in thinking that's the area he's talking about, having "West Kyoto" or anything similar in the name would be misleading. It's about 30 minutes and a train transfer away from Kyoto.
posted by emmling at 8:18 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by emmling at 8:18 AM on August 6, 2009
Oh, I misread that. I thought Nishinokyo was a poetic way of playing off Ukyoku. I 100% agree with any portmanteau. The inn's name should refer to the actual city or town where it is, or the Kizugawa. Kyoto<>Nara public transportation reliably ends around 10pm, and is sparse before that (comparatively speaking).
I'd be pissed if I thought I was staying near Kyoto and then realized I'd have to end my Kyoto day at 7or 8pm, just as Kyoto comes alive, in order to make it back to the middle of nowhere, and pay 2,000 yen or so to do it.
Also, I'd avoid the West/East altogether. It is confusing if you don't know how the directions are calculated Kyoto-style.
So I change my answer. The name should reflect the peaceful, natural aspects of the area-- the river, the tea fields, whatever. "Inn Midori no Yururi" sounds cute to me.
posted by vincele at 8:29 AM on August 6, 2009
I'd be pissed if I thought I was staying near Kyoto and then realized I'd have to end my Kyoto day at 7or 8pm, just as Kyoto comes alive, in order to make it back to the middle of nowhere, and pay 2,000 yen or so to do it.
Also, I'd avoid the West/East altogether. It is confusing if you don't know how the directions are calculated Kyoto-style.
So I change my answer. The name should reflect the peaceful, natural aspects of the area-- the river, the tea fields, whatever. "Inn Midori no Yururi" sounds cute to me.
posted by vincele at 8:29 AM on August 6, 2009
"Nishinokyo" is a mouthful for the untrained mouth or ear. For that reason, "West Kyoto" I suggest works better in a name.
My untrained mouth and ear can easily say Nishi No Kyo but not Yururi (and definitely not Yururiyado). I also really like Kizugawa in a totally abstract way, it's fun to say and somehow sounds extra Japanese (I realise this is silly). Kyotanabe is also probably OK because of it's similarity to Kyoto. On the whole single Japanese words were OK for me, the rules are similar to Maori, but words with lots of soft sounds or double vowels tripped me up.
When I arranging my trip to Japan I had a real block about going or staying places I couldn't say. I want to be able to ask someone for directions without stumbling, can't easily remember something my mouth can't handle, and want to be able to talk about it when I come home. So I think choosing the name is somewhat important. But I'm weirdly shy about pronouncing words I'm unsure of and my experience may not be representative.
I do know that I and some of the other foreigners I met travelling there would have liked staying in a place as described here. If your friend can get it to work, with the mix of locals/internationals and traditional/modern, then I think it will be cool.
posted by shelleycat at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2009
My untrained mouth and ear can easily say Nishi No Kyo but not Yururi (and definitely not Yururiyado). I also really like Kizugawa in a totally abstract way, it's fun to say and somehow sounds extra Japanese (I realise this is silly). Kyotanabe is also probably OK because of it's similarity to Kyoto. On the whole single Japanese words were OK for me, the rules are similar to Maori, but words with lots of soft sounds or double vowels tripped me up.
When I arranging my trip to Japan I had a real block about going or staying places I couldn't say. I want to be able to ask someone for directions without stumbling, can't easily remember something my mouth can't handle, and want to be able to talk about it when I come home. So I think choosing the name is somewhat important. But I'm weirdly shy about pronouncing words I'm unsure of and my experience may not be representative.
I do know that I and some of the other foreigners I met travelling there would have liked staying in a place as described here. If your friend can get it to work, with the mix of locals/internationals and traditional/modern, then I think it will be cool.
posted by shelleycat at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2009
Yes, if the hotel isn't actually in Kyoto Prefecture I'd definitely avoid using Kyoto anywhere in the name. Nishi-no-kyo is quite close to central Nara, so I would sell the place using Nara instead.
"Yururi Yado Nishi-no-kyo, located a pleasantly short distance from the center of historic Nara, Japan..."
Most non-Japanese visiting Japan have heard of Nara, so I don't think it's a big deal.
posted by armage at 7:57 PM on August 6, 2009
"Yururi Yado Nishi-no-kyo, located a pleasantly short distance from the center of historic Nara, Japan..."
Most non-Japanese visiting Japan have heard of Nara, so I don't think it's a big deal.
posted by armage at 7:57 PM on August 6, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
If I might ask, where exactly is your friend's hotel going to be located, if not in central Kyoto? It might not be a bad idea to use a local place name in the name of the hotel.
posted by armage at 1:12 AM on August 6, 2009