Should I disclose a past suicide attempt (and subsequent hospitalization) on my state Bar application?
August 4, 2009 4:11 PM   Subscribe

Should I disclose a past suicide attempt (and subsequent hospitalization) on my state Bar application?

This is my first question, so apologies for any formatting mishaps.

As a rising 2L (straight, female, 23, went to law school right out of undergrad), I'm required to apply to the state Bar Association soon in order to avoid hefty late fees. Lots of paperwork, blah, blah. My issue is with the Character and Fitness report, specifically the section related to recent mental health and addiction matters.

Question 25 is, "Within the last five years, have you been diagnosed with or have you been treated for bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, or any other psychotic disorder?"

Question 26A is, "Do you currently have any condition or impairment (including, but not limited to, substance abuse, alcohol abuse, or a mental, emotional or nervous disorder or condition) which in any way currently affects, or if untreated could affect, your ability to practice law in a competent and professional manner?"

If I answer yes to either of these questions, I have to include a signed release of my medical records, and also offer a description of the diagnosis and treatment plan and treating physician/hospital contact information. However, if I answer no, I don't have to authorize the release of my medical records.

The application says that "the National Conference of Bar Examiners does not ordinarily seek medical records, although the jurisdiction in which the applicant is seeking admission may do so." The application also says that it is not concerned with issues related to "situational counseling," such as stress counseling, domestic counseling, grief counseling, and counseling for eating or sleeping disorders.

Now to the embarrassingly personal stuff. Two years ago, in the midst of devastatingly destructive relationship which left me completely isolated from my friends and family, I tried to commit suicide. I took a fairly large assortment of Vicodin, other painkillers, and sleeping pills, which ultimately landed me in the local emergency room. I spent two and half days unconscious in the ICU, and then a few more days up in the mental ward, where if I recall correctly, the psychiatrist diagnosed me with major depression and anxiety. After that, I was sent home with my parents, complete with antidepressant prescription and an appointment with a therapist.

Unimpressed with either the pills or the shrink, I stopped using either within a few months, with no ill effects. I had really just needed to get out of the bad relationship and back with the people who cared about and loved me.

Today, I'm emotionally fine. I'm doing fantastically in law school, I'm in a fulfilling relationship with a great guy, and I've made some good friends. The only problem is this damn bar application.

Should I answer yes to Question 25? Would a past diagnosis of major depression and anxiety count as a "psychotic disorder"? I wasn't hallucinating or anything, I was just deeply unhappy with my life. Plus, I didn't really follow through on any treatment plan (since I stopped taking medication or going to therapy), and I'm afraid that the Bar people would be afraid of me relapsing or something, even though I know that won't happen. I also don't remember the name or contact info of any of the variety of doctors who treated me in the ICU or the mental ward.

I feel fairly confident answering no to Question 26A, since I don't think I have any serious emotional problems anymore, even without medication or therapy. However, would the bar examiners find that unbelievable, if I answered no to 26A, in conjunction with a yes to 25?

So I'm at a loss. I believe I can honestly answer no to each question (because I don't think I had a psychotic disorder and I don't think I have any current emotional problems), but I'm afraid that the hospitalization info will somehow come up in the Character and Fitness investigation, and it will be enough to sink my application. At the same time, I don't know how to fill out an adequate explanation of my "condition" since I didn't follow much, if any, of the formal treatment recommendations.

What should I do? Disclose, or not disclose? I don't feel comfortable asking any of the administrators at my school about this, and would prefer to avoid doing so if possible. I'd like to avoid being labeled the crazy girl.

You can email me at throwawayemail987@yahoo.com, if necessary. Thanks.
posted by anonymous to Law & Government (19 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
I would not call depression/anxiety a psychotic disorder. "Psychotic disorder" denotes inability to distinguish right from wrong or reality from hallucination, delusion, etc. You might have felt temporarily hopeless, but you were not getting messages from the television or hearing voices telling you you'd best kill yourself.
posted by lleachie at 4:14 PM on August 4, 2009


Depression is not in itself a psychotic disorder. Period. You can safely answer "no" and be done with it.
posted by dersins at 4:17 PM on August 4, 2009 [4 favorites]


Those questions are trying to get at whether or not you're currently or were recently CRAZY/have some sort of permanent crazy. I don't think you do, so I give you the go ahead to answer NO!, preferably with the exclamation point.

As a lawyer, you know they aren't going find those records unless you do something straight up WRONG. Worst case, your little NO! will serve as a reminder not to do anything fucked up in a professional capacity.
posted by paanta at 4:24 PM on August 4, 2009


Psychotic disorder =/= mood disorder, so you have nothing to disclose, if you're recalling your diagnoses (depression and anxiety) correctly.
posted by palliser at 4:32 PM on August 4, 2009


Here are the DSM-IV definitions of major depressive episode and major depression. In both cases, they seem to be specifically saying that if psychotic symptoms are present, then it's not depression, but something else.
posted by Zed at 4:39 PM on August 4, 2009


Depression is definitely not a psychotic disorder, and it doesn't sound as though you've got mental or emotional disorders.

I think you can safely (and truthfully) answer No to both questions.
posted by Todd Forklift at 4:43 PM on August 4, 2009


Your state bar probably has an ethics hotline that you can call anonymously for advice.

Metafilter is probably not as authoratative a venue for such a weighty question.
posted by slateyness at 5:07 PM on August 4, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm completing a character and fitness application right now myself.

My prof. resp. professor said it very succinctly - if you aren't sure if you should disclose it, then you should disclose it. Yes, it means a huge invasion of the state into your medical records. But, if they somehow find out that you've been less than truthful on your app, that's usually immediate grounds for permanent exclusion from the bar. If they investigate the suicide attempt, and are satisfied that it won't impair your future ability to practice law, then you'll be fine --- even if, for some reason, they decide not to admit you on that basis, they would at most deny your app and ask you to reapply in a few years. It's not the best alternative, but it's better than a permanent exclusion.

From what you're describing, it doesn't seem like they'd deny your application. To be safe though, I second slateyness's suggestion to anonymously contact the state bar.



Good luck on the Bar Exam!
posted by melissasaurus at 5:42 PM on August 4, 2009


For the people saying depression isn't a psychotic disorder:

bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, or any other psychotic disorder (emphasis mine)

Is bipolar disorder considered a psychotic disorder when run of the mill depression is not? Just wondering is all :)
posted by wackybrit at 5:48 PM on August 4, 2009


Yes, you have nothing to disclose. Don't worry about it. If they wanted you to disclose depression, the question would have listed it.
posted by jayder at 6:29 PM on August 4, 2009


Your state bar probably has an ethics hotline that you can call anonymously for advice.

This. If the bar examiners find out that you attempted suicide and decide to call you in to ask about why it wasn't disclosed, saying "All of these people on Metafilter said I didn't have to" isn't going to amount to a hill (or plate) of beans.

The essential problem is this: the examiners are relying mostly on self-reporting. If something comes up that they think you should've disclosed (even if by the letter of the form you might not have had to) they're going to wonder WHAT ELSE you haven't disclosed.

In addition to calling the state bar, you might consider talking with someone in law school admin (if there's anyone there you trust) about whether or not the kinds of things you'd be disclosing have ever caused anyone any trouble on the bar. I'm not sure if the lawyers that handle ethics complaints have any experience in this area, but if they do, you might talk with one of THOSE too/instead.

You also might consider attaching an addendum (if that's allowed) disclosing the suicide attempt, stating that your diagnosis doesn't fall within the categories listed above, but explaining the situation and relevant diagnosis. This handles the disclosure AND prevents you from having to actually having to say "YES" to those questions. It almost might be opening a can of worms. Run this idea by someone knowledgeable about bar apps in your jurisdiction before you go that route.

Then again, I'm not particularly private about most things and, when it comes to dealing with bar examiners, my philosophy is that I ought to tell them everything so that if they're going to deny me, they have to do it for a real reason rather than some BS like failing to disclose something.
posted by toomuchpete at 6:46 PM on August 4, 2009


Is bipolar disorder considered a psychotic disorder when run of the mill depression is not? Just wondering is all :)

Yes. Bipolar comes with states of manicness which can induce breaks with reality. This is what is technically known as psychotic behavior. Depression does not manifest with psychosis.
Anonymous, you are/were not psychotic (based on your story). Do not answer yes to question 25.

(I am not a lawyer/Doctor/etc. Don't listen to anything anyone on the internet ever tells you.)
posted by brevator at 7:09 PM on August 4, 2009


sorry... "psychotic behavior" should be "psychotic thought."
posted by brevator at 7:15 PM on August 4, 2009


I agree with most posters that you can answer no with a clear conscience. Moreover, darn near 100 percent of applicants will answer these questions in the negative, so your answer won't stick out. If, however, you're worried about whether/how the Bar Application folks might find out, think that through, because some of the avenues to discovery are under your control.

Off the top of my head... 1) shouldn't HIPPA rules safeguard your medical records? 2) does anyone they can legitimately contact as a reference, including your school administration and key professors, know this aspect of your background? 3) can the references you provide in that section of the application be limited to people who don't know this aspect of your life story? You need to be sure of 2 and 3 in case any of them get contacted as part of the random checking/validation process.... just in case they feel obliged to answer any of the reference check questions with this information and/or fail to appreciate the subtle distinctions about diagnosis, treatment, etc.
posted by carmicha at 7:33 PM on August 4, 2009


Here's my thought, as a lawyer: If you're going to provide information that isn't asked for, just because you're afraid the bar will come up with some twisted excuse to penalize you for not providing information they didn't request, you need to reconsider whether you're cut out to be a lawyer.

Narrow, hair-splitting definitions of what questions call for is what lawyers do for a living. It's also how you need to be answering this question.

If they wanted to know about suicide attempts, the question would have asked about suicide attempts. If they wanted to know about depressive episodes, the question would have asked about depressive episodes. They have clearly, and purposely, limited their question. You should clearly, and purposely, limit your answer.

It's classic advice to laypeople about to be deposed. If they ask you, "Do you know what time it is?" you don't say, "Yes, it's 7:15." That's giving information that was not requested. Instead, you say, "Yes." If you know.
posted by jayder at 8:15 PM on August 4, 2009 [2 favorites]


The only piece of advice worth following above is to consult with Bar ethics counsel.

Should you fail to disclose without comfort of the Bar ethics counsel you (deservedly) run a grave risk of discipline or disbarment. The chance you will be discovered in your non-disclosure is certainly not low.

Spend some time reading the case-law on admission and discipline before you follow Jayder's advice -- I think you'll find that the majority goes in quite the opposite direction concerning disclosure and the nature of the character and fitness process. You are not entitled to give yourself the benefit of the doubt.
posted by MattD at 8:41 PM on August 4, 2009


A diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder is different than a diagnosis of Psychotic Disorder. I believe you should get the exact diagnosis from the physician/hospital and get it classified as either Psychotic Disorder or not, then take it from there. That way you'll know exactly what you're dealing with and how to proceed in answering the question as truthfully as possible.
posted by torquemaniac at 10:09 PM on August 4, 2009


You don't say what state bar you are applying to, but different states have very different views on mental illness. Some are downright archaic.

Also, observe that 26A is phrased in the present tense.

And as The World Famous said, answer it like a lawyer.

I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice, yadda yadda yadda, good luck on your 2L year.
posted by whoaali at 10:51 PM on August 4, 2009


Thirding the anonymous state bar ethics hotline. I can vouch for the one in my state (Illinois) being a great resource.
posted by slmorri at 9:53 AM on August 5, 2009


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