Do I need permission to stage this play?
July 20, 2009 10:32 AM Subscribe
Can I legally stage an original play based on a short story I didn't write?
Copyright filter:
There are similar previous posts, but I'm wondering about this piece specifically, etc etc etc.
MeFi's own JaMahodara and I wrote a play/opera/theater piece based on Robert H. Heinlein's 1958 short story All You Zombies.
While its quite a bit different, and we've rearranged the entire narrative, the concept is still pretty rooted in the short story.
We'd like to stage it in Portland, and people would probably be paying to see it. What are the legalities involved here? Do I need permission from his estate? How would I even go about doing that? And is it likely that we could get permission?
Thanks Hive Mind!! You're the best!!!
Copyright filter:
There are similar previous posts, but I'm wondering about this piece specifically, etc etc etc.
MeFi's own JaMahodara and I wrote a play/opera/theater piece based on Robert H. Heinlein's 1958 short story All You Zombies.
While its quite a bit different, and we've rearranged the entire narrative, the concept is still pretty rooted in the short story.
We'd like to stage it in Portland, and people would probably be paying to see it. What are the legalities involved here? Do I need permission from his estate? How would I even go about doing that? And is it likely that we could get permission?
Thanks Hive Mind!! You're the best!!!
You need permission from the estate for what are called "dramatic rights." His estate's literary agent appears to be Eleanor Wood at Spectrum Literary. Go forth and conquer.
posted by ocherdraco at 10:44 AM on July 20, 2009
posted by ocherdraco at 10:44 AM on July 20, 2009
Taanstaafl. You need permission.
posted by rokusan at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by rokusan at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2009 [2 favorites]
while you should absolutely talk to a lawyer or expert, I will say this:
There is a big difference between an adaptation, where you literally use someone else's words or music, and "inspired by" or using something as a "source text."
An example of the latter would be something like Star trek II, which is based on Moby Dick story-wise, but has completely different characters and dialogue. As far as I know it is impossible to copyright story structure or elements. People usually give a credit out of courtesy, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as if you were literally using lines of his dialogue.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:47 AM on July 20, 2009
There is a big difference between an adaptation, where you literally use someone else's words or music, and "inspired by" or using something as a "source text."
An example of the latter would be something like Star trek II, which is based on Moby Dick story-wise, but has completely different characters and dialogue. As far as I know it is impossible to copyright story structure or elements. People usually give a credit out of courtesy, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as if you were literally using lines of his dialogue.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:47 AM on July 20, 2009
As far as I know it is impossible to copyright story structure or elements.
No, it is absolutely possible. Buchwald v. Paramount is a very clear precedent here.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2009
No, it is absolutely possible. Buchwald v. Paramount is a very clear precedent here.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2009
The reason you can base Clueless on Emma, and 10 Things I Hate About You on The Taming of the Shrew, etc., is that those works are in the public domain.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2009
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2009
You cannot copyright a concept. Heinlein's copyright would extend to his characters, dialog and plot. If your play is essentially "inspired by" the short story, then you're okay. If you are using actual characters, dialog or details of the plot, then you need permission.
And, obviously, if you want to call it "Robert Heinlein's ALL YOU ZOMBIES," you'll need permission.
My guess is, with all the zombie movies and plays around, you can probably rip off the concept and be fine by the time you get through making it your own. But IANAL.
More on copyright and adaptation here.
posted by musofire at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2009
And, obviously, if you want to call it "Robert Heinlein's ALL YOU ZOMBIES," you'll need permission.
My guess is, with all the zombie movies and plays around, you can probably rip off the concept and be fine by the time you get through making it your own. But IANAL.
More on copyright and adaptation here.
posted by musofire at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2009
It depends how much you've changed. On the one hand, you're working with source material that is not in the public domain, but on the other, you've tweaked things.
Perhaps if you can't afford a lawyer, maybe if you can ask someone in the English department at the nearest university to you -- they may be able to point you towards a reference that could clear things up for you.
(This is why the one time I wrote something based on a short story, I picked something in the public domain.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:58 AM on July 20, 2009
Perhaps if you can't afford a lawyer, maybe if you can ask someone in the English department at the nearest university to you -- they may be able to point you towards a reference that could clear things up for you.
(This is why the one time I wrote something based on a short story, I picked something in the public domain.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:58 AM on July 20, 2009
Well from what I just read on Wikipedia, Buchwald v. Paramount refers to a screenplay based on an original treatment for the same film. I don't think that is the same as a "source text" being used as inspiration for a completely new work, with new characters, dialogue and setting.
But again. I am not a lawyer. And whether you could legally get away with it or not, asking permission is the right and safe thing to do.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:01 AM on July 20, 2009
But again. I am not a lawyer. And whether you could legally get away with it or not, asking permission is the right and safe thing to do.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:01 AM on July 20, 2009
Derivative Work:
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2009
A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.Copyright grants rights not only to the original work but to all derivative works.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:05 AM on July 20, 2009
it should be pointed out that the Heinlein Estate may be ammenable to this, they recently licensed the same short story to an EscapePod episode, which is under a CC (by-nc-nd) license.
posted by jrishel at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2009
posted by jrishel at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2009
I don't think that is the same as a "source text" being used as inspiration for a completely new work, with new characters, dialogue and setting.
True, but it sounded from the OP like this was Heinlein's characters, setting, and situation mashed up, and that part of what excited him and his collaborator about the project was the Heinlein connection.
Here's the thing (and I am someone who has been "someone from the English department" and also someone who has been "someone from a publisher" but am not a lawyer--let alone an intellectual property lawyer, because your average lawyer in another specialty doesn't understand jack about intellectual property--myself):
If Lutoslawski and his collaborator change all the character names, change all the situations a bit, and don't use a single sentence of Heinlein's dialogue, and don't use Heinlein's name anywhere in the program notes or publicity, they'll be fine. They'll totally sail under the radar.
That's what they call "filing the serial numbers off" and it will never come to the attention of the Heinlein Estate, because they aren't going around reading notices of every independent theater production to make sure they don't infringe.
But if what Lutoslawski and his collaborator want is people to come to an opera that's an adaptation of Heinlein's "All You Zombies" and they advertise it as such in any way, they will run afoul of the Heinlein Estate.
So from a practical perspective, yeah, it can be made to work without permission. But making that work will require cutting all public ties to the Heinlein influence.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:08 AM on July 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
True, but it sounded from the OP like this was Heinlein's characters, setting, and situation mashed up, and that part of what excited him and his collaborator about the project was the Heinlein connection.
Here's the thing (and I am someone who has been "someone from the English department" and also someone who has been "someone from a publisher" but am not a lawyer--let alone an intellectual property lawyer, because your average lawyer in another specialty doesn't understand jack about intellectual property--myself):
If Lutoslawski and his collaborator change all the character names, change all the situations a bit, and don't use a single sentence of Heinlein's dialogue, and don't use Heinlein's name anywhere in the program notes or publicity, they'll be fine. They'll totally sail under the radar.
That's what they call "filing the serial numbers off" and it will never come to the attention of the Heinlein Estate, because they aren't going around reading notices of every independent theater production to make sure they don't infringe.
But if what Lutoslawski and his collaborator want is people to come to an opera that's an adaptation of Heinlein's "All You Zombies" and they advertise it as such in any way, they will run afoul of the Heinlein Estate.
So from a practical perspective, yeah, it can be made to work without permission. But making that work will require cutting all public ties to the Heinlein influence.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:08 AM on July 20, 2009 [1 favorite]
Related question, maybe,...If a person wanted to use quotes from a dead public person to add to a play would the play's author need permission of the estate of the dead person to use readily available and copious quotes. Example: play about Truman Capote, using his [para-phrased] quote "This is not writing it's just typing" is the phrase under copywrite because it was said and written down as having been said? Not words from a written property [book or short story] he wrote, just words he said?
posted by Freedomboy at 11:18 AM on July 20, 2009
posted by Freedomboy at 11:18 AM on July 20, 2009
The thing about Buchwald v. Paramount as a precedent is that the judge clearly ruled on Paramount's argument that "Buchwald's treatment has King So-and-so coming to America and working as a janitor, whereas our movie has Prince So-and-so coming to America and working in a fast-food restaurant, so it's different" as invalid.
I don't see how you could divorce "All You Zombies" from its fundamental plot structure of hermaphrodites and time travel enough to make it non-infringing without losing everything that makes it interesting, but I suppose it's worth a try. Changing it to "the present day, going back to 1981 and back to 1959" or whatever, but keeping the same central plot twists, isn't likely to do it, though.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:21 AM on July 20, 2009
I don't see how you could divorce "All You Zombies" from its fundamental plot structure of hermaphrodites and time travel enough to make it non-infringing without losing everything that makes it interesting, but I suppose it's worth a try. Changing it to "the present day, going back to 1981 and back to 1959" or whatever, but keeping the same central plot twists, isn't likely to do it, though.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:21 AM on July 20, 2009
Response by poster: Sidhedevil - excellent answers. Much, much appreciated. We have taken actual material from the story (Uroboros, Round Snake, etc.). From what Pickle posted, I would say that yes, our work is derivative.
And really appreciate the contact info for Ms. Wood.
Note to self: before I take on another big project, make sure I can show it to people first, before I start.
Thank you everyone. The Hive is the greatest.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:21 AM on July 20, 2009
And really appreciate the contact info for Ms. Wood.
Note to self: before I take on another big project, make sure I can show it to people first, before I start.
Thank you everyone. The Hive is the greatest.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:21 AM on July 20, 2009
Freedomboy, remarks made by public figures and recorded in, say, newspapers or on film/radio/TV are not copyrighted. So, yes, you could write a play about Miss Teen South Carolina and use "find places like the Iraq" and "maps and such as" with impunity.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:24 AM on July 20, 2009
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:24 AM on July 20, 2009
Regardless of fitting into the "fair use" allowances for derivative works -- fighting a copyright lawsuit in court can be just as destructive as the lawsuit itself. Defending yourself against an unwarranted cease-and-desist is expensive and time-consuming; it is easier to try and acquire rights first, especially if there isn't a huge financial reason to warrant defending against a copyright infringement lawsuit. Even if you think your work is immune, Heinlein's estate could make things very, very difficult for you.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:05 PM on July 20, 2009
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:05 PM on July 20, 2009
All the above advice is good, but unless you're committed to an adaptation of All You Zombies per se, you might consider presenting an original piece inspired by that work and other similar stories involving protagonists that go back in time, change gender, and have sex with themselves. One of these is David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself, but there must be more.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 PM on July 20, 2009
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:49 PM on July 20, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
The person to contact is Eleanor Wood, the agent for the Heinlein Estate; you'll find her at
Spectrum Literary Agency
320 Central Park West
Suite 1-D
New York, NY 10025
212-362-4323
Do not fuck around with this. I have witnessed an unauthorized student production of an opera being shut down by the attorneys for the estate of the composer, and it was actually pretty funny: the producers switched to a performance of public-domain material by the composer in question, and the law firm sent someone every night to make sure they didn't perform any of the still-under-copyright material.
These were students, at a college, and the composer was not American and not particularly famous--the Heinlein Estate is famously vigilant about protecting its intellectual property, so the likelihood of repercussions is even greater.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:39 AM on July 20, 2009 [2 favorites]