Tomorrow, I might have to defend myself at work over something that happened last week. I believe I'll be okay on this, but it could go either way..

July 19, 2009 6:33 PM

Tomorrow, I might have to defend myself at work over something that happened last week. I believe I'll be okay on this, but it could go either way..

The reason is I had an argument with a manager because he was basically 'writing me up' about poor performance, that I felt was totally uncalled for. So I got a little defensive and argumentative, because I believed I was right.

The smoking gun here is if I was to go and actually compare the output, like get a figure, crunch the numbers.. to see how much work I actually did. Because I created some 'methods' I guess you could say, that greatly increased the amount of output I'm doing. It's a combo of some software I created along with a workflow... because I am a geek ;), I have a programming background but this job isn't a programming place. I just happened to be able to use it for the benefit of this job...

So to managers, who aren't familiar with this stuff I'm doing, only are looking at the numbers of mistakes going back and forth, and how it's taking more time because of more mistakes. Well, since my work is outputting more, naturally there's going to be more mistakes. For example if you build 1 car, theres 20 expected mistakes. But if you make 5, there's 100.

They only are looking at the 20 vs 100 number. I think they think I'm only producing 1 car.. so they see, 100 mistakes for 1 car. (not really cars.. example ;P)

And why I can't simply say, oh no, this is for FIVE cars, not ONE, is because it's confusing how it's broken down into categories and projects, as in each project has a category, which is usually done one at a time. My software and workflow does all categories at once.

But it gets techy and geeky and this guy was not allowing me to explain it.. and it got ugly and personal and we fought and acted like stupid high schoolers.

So I'm expecting someone's going to call me in to talk about my behavior I had with him.

It's kinda a 'he's just being a dick' problem but I can't say that. If I could get actual numbers then his whole case is blown.

But the thing is, I don't know for sure that my output actually is higher because I don't know or pay attention to the other people's output. I just really thought mine was more because they all use the older software that was horrible. I tried getting them to use mine, and they WANT to, and they all know mine was faster, but they're mac people, and mine's windows, which technically is sort of not what we're supposed to be doing.

WE're supposed to be on macs using the company software. It was a thing I kind of got an okay to do, because I brought this up with some managers and they know about it, but they're on the fence, because they invested a lot of money in their software. In a way, it's kind of like.. not about what's really the best software, but politics. Some of the actual programmers on their side took a look at mine, and agreed it was a better solution. But they decided they need to stick to their software, and I could *use mine*, but the other people will still use theirs.

So this new manager comes and I don't think he's familiar with this, so he thinks I'm working the same way, the same amount as everyone else. I think I'm actually doing more. But the only way to know is to dig through all the files, compile some list and show the actual number. I'm just convinced if you did that, mine would come out a lot more.

Which would explain why I'm having more mistakes. Cause there's simply more. But I'm worried we'll go through all that trouble, and find out it's the same, or less. I don't feel that will be the case, but I'm not 100% sure. I could investigate myself, keeping it to myself, however I can't access all files because they get stored in archives, which I can't access. So if I was to get a real figure, it would have to involve other people.

Anyway, the argument we had was really about the fact I felt this manager has been acting really negative towards me lately, and not seeing that I work different and really trying to make it better, and I was so pissed at his tone and demeanor and honestly felt insulted by what and how he was saying it. So I went off. I got close to getting personal and crossing the line, where he could easily have fired me right there.

In his mind, he's a good responsible manager who is calling out me for being irresponsible, and instead I talked back and gave him attitude. And this is what I fear he's going to pass along to the big guys, and I'll be hearing this on Monday.

I'm 90% they'll understand my side because they know me, they're cool, we get along, however since this new manager came, I no longer really interact with them, but they interact with the new manager. So I'm not sure if their opinion of me has shifted during this time, cause I'm out of the loop and have been kind of independent.

So what can I do to prepare myself for this, what else do I need to do to document, or have some kind of thing to show.. because even tho I can type it here I have a hard time explaining this, especially if in a room with everyone interrogating me.

I also don't want to come off as a smart ass, or anything like that.

Any help would be appreciated. And sorry this was so long :)

posted by 0217174 to work & money (35 comments total)

Judging by what you've written here, you need to prepare yourself to shut up and listen to what your bosses care about, and to let them know you've heard them. All this other crap about how great and special you are has got to wait.
posted by jon1270 at 6:45 PM on July 19 [23 favorites]

Every documentation helps in these situations I think.

But long story short: if you're manager is unhappy, you're not doing you're number one job. By getting into an argument, you have compounded this.

My advice - which is completely independent of the job you're doing etc. - is to a) sincerely and deeply apologise for your behaviour in the meeting. Say that it was wholly in appropriate for a workplace environment, you regret it, and you'd like to move forward.

Crunch the numbers or whatever so you can make a case you're not totally useless, but more importantly. Accept their criticisms, promise to reduce the number of mistakes, and agree on how you will be able to demonstrate that in the coming months.

If they care only about the mistakes, drop the productivity and reduce the mistakes. Don't sweat it about the other stuff.

And good luck - but seriously, a good apology goes such a long way I'm shocked people don't utilise them more.
posted by smoke at 6:47 PM on July 19 [1 favorite]

Honestly, you sound like an employer's worst nightmare.

Your job is, well, to do your job.

If you feel that your skills could be put to better use elsewhere, then find a different job.

But if your job is to make widgets then make widgets.

Do your job, please your boss, and welcome to the real world.

All the extraneous detail you provide about how certain you are in the right is really beside the point.
posted by dfriedman at 6:52 PM on July 19 [4 favorites]

Rule of thumb: acting like an ass will get you canned more quickly than anything job related. Apologize, act contrite, and go about your business.
posted by shopefowler at 6:57 PM on July 19 [1 favorite]

What exactly was your question?
posted by Happydaz at 7:00 PM on July 19 [7 favorites]

I get your guys points. I did get personal and heated, but just to point out, right as we were leaving, I tapped him on the shoulder and kinda said sorry man. I thought just what you guys were saying.. but I thought he was being a dick neverless. But I did say sorry, explicity, and it was real. I had to kind of run up to him and get his attention.
posted by 0217174 at 7:02 PM on July 19

If you get our points, then apologize and convince your boss of the veracity of your apology by keeping your head down, and doing your job.

Your first job ought to be to figure out where your boss's priorities lay. If they lie in eliminating errors, as opposed to technological wizardry, then you have your marching orders.

If this is not sufficient for you then you have two options: (1) figure out how to convince your boss that this technology you've developed will be useful over the long term but has some kinks to work out in the interim, or (2) find a different job.
posted by dfriedman at 7:05 PM on July 19 [1 favorite]

So you've been working at this place longer then the manager, right? And you got the OK to use your software.

I would go talk to the programmers and see if they can calculate your error rate. I have to say it's a little annoying to hear all the "Shut up and do whatever your boss says" people. We have no idea how reasonable this new manager is. He could be a huge dick. If were a upper level manager, and my new manager got into an argument with a long-time, productive employee I would probably be more interested in what the long-time employee had to say about it. I would actually consider it a black mark against the new manager. But who knows if your boss boss shares my attitude.

It really all comes down to the attitude of the people involved, including yours. If you can calm down and try to keep things calm that's really the best.

In the future though, you should check the results of your software and correct any errors that come up. Your boss is probably annoyed because it's his job to check errors, and if you produce a lot of errors, you make a lot of work for him each day -- even if everyone else produces less correct work, they also produce less work for him (I'm guessing)
posted by delmoi at 7:07 PM on July 19 [2 favorites]

Nthing Smoke.

dfriedman was blunt and perhaps overstating things a bit, but in essence, he's accurate.

A lot of this reads like a frustration that they're not realizing your brilliance, that they're a bunch of idiots in general and for that reason. Maybe those things are true, but bringing that attitude to bear is far from a formula for success.

It's the rare job where people don't have to play by the rules. Maybe it should be more common, maybe not, but I can see a view that if it were fundamentally allowed in any position/field, all sorts of not-good things would happen, as much as there might be some gems among a big, nasty pile of turds.

Dunno about the size of the company, its age and other relevant factors, but it seems you are trying to bring about wholesale change--which, again, might be needed. In a lot of places, though, change of that magnitude is damned difficult to bring around,

What you are implicitly saying, is, "This shit's fucked up," which (as much as it might be true) people might reasonably take as, "The people who put these things in place are stupid and not as smart as me."

In general, what your words, actions and reactions come across as 'saying,' is "I'm gonna do it different and better and go off on someone who takes issue with me."

I'm far from a hardliner, by-the-book person, but if I was your manager, I'd want to hear a sincere apology; that you were embarrassed by how you handled yourself; that going forward you will far more work within established frameworks; that if your desire is to take initiative to change them for the better, you will establish and document proposals rather than up and do them.

If I heard fundamentally otherwise, I'd think real seriously about terminating your employment or saying (not quite so bluntly), "This shit stops now. We'll discuss this in 30 days and things will be in good order or you will be out of a job."

Again, you may be right ('cept for the blowing-up) part, but nothing good will come from carrying on with that attitude while doing your own thing--and probably all the more so these days because short of the job being something really unusual, supervisors know they can find good people who'd bring much better attitudes, willingness to do the job as per the employer's requirement.
posted by ambient2 at 7:18 PM on July 19 [2 favorites]

dfriedman was blunt and perhaps overstating things a bit

Agreed. I overstated.

Nonetheless I think the general point is valid.
posted by dfriedman at 7:20 PM on July 19

You believe you have improved a process. Ask your boss to assess the process and see if it is really what the company wants. Then work on documenting the work and reducing errors. Assume that your boss has a clue. Assume that you may be in error. Work at resolving the problem, not at proving you're right/he's wrong.
posted by theora55 at 7:23 PM on July 19 [2 favorites]

Thanks guys.

This whole thing was weird. I felt I was being attacked and it was a surprise. This is out of character for me. Actually hearing you're responses puts things in perspective.
posted by 0217174 at 7:48 PM on July 19

What should you do? Work on your resume because you are probably going to need it sooner than you expect. Tomorrow you can try groveling and sincerely apologizing but it doesn't sound like it fits with who you are. Your manager has had a whole weekend to stew about it and what he doesn't need is a "loose canon". This need to "prove" you are right isn't an endearing quality with managers. By the end of the day tomorrow you might be history with that company.

In this economy, workers are a dime a dozen and unless the company is doing fabulously well, they welcome an opportunity to improve their personnel costs. Sorry to sound so harsh, but the sooner you learn how to get along in the workplace, the sooner you can become a truly productive asset to a company.
posted by Flacka at 7:52 PM on July 19

Well, here's the thing -
You may well have a better way than everyone else. You admit, though that that's not in-your-face obvious to the casual observer due to whatnot.

Your error then, is not in doing things the way you're doing them, but in not getting your supervisor in on the plan beforehand. It's always going to look suspicious if he gets the "well, yeah, but" sob story after the fact, when he's questioning what he can see. Doubly so if you're hostile about it.

A little preemptive "hey, I'm doing things a bit different; here's why, here's what you might expect to see. Here's what you might not like about it. Here's why the cons are outweighed by the pros / why the stats may be misleading" beforehand could make the difference between you being a problem and you receiving an award for innovation.
posted by ctmf at 7:57 PM on July 19 [2 favorites]

You work for them, not the other way around. So as soon as this becomes a contest or a fight, you loose. This isn't about trying to 'defend yourself' or 'defeat your boss's case', it should be about figuring out how you can work together to make you as valuable to them as possible.

Frankly, I found even your summary of the situation to be overwhelming and very aggressive/defensive. My suggestion is to go into the conversation realizing that given their overall priorities you may be in the wrong and ready to simply listen to their assessments. Acknowledge that they likely have legitimate reasons for making their points. Work with them to determine how you can make measurable improvements in those areas. Then, and only then, can you consider opening a discussion around your other ideas that you believe can lead to improvements.

Pause, take deep breaths, and if you feel provoked take a moment before responding and don't 'rise to the bait'.
posted by meinvt at 8:04 PM on July 19

Always remember - and this is very hard sometimes all the time:

Your job is not to do the thing you think is the best thing. Your job is to do the thing your boss would do. That's why you're there. If the boss could do everything himself, he would.

Whenever you're about to do something the boss would not have done, your job is to NOT do that until you have educated your boss sufficiently that, now, that's what your boss would do and wants you to do that for him.

No exceptions. It took me nearly 20 years to learn that.
posted by ctmf at 8:06 PM on July 19 [5 favorites]

Claiming you work faster than everyone else may just damn you further... the response to that is generally "slow down and pay attention, the speed is causing your work to suffer" since it'll read as an error of speed and carelessness.

Unless you have concrete proof that you're producing more than everyone else while maintaining the same error PERCENTAGE, you don't have a case. For all you know they already are looking at this as everyone else has a .05% error rate overall, while yours is .15%, not that you had 15 mistakes a week compared to everyone else's 5.

Just going in and saying you assume you produce more work than anyone else without proof (not even proof from observation!) doesn't help you a bit- it just makes you look like you're trying to get out of trouble by throwing your teammates under the bus. And going in with the attitude you have in your post of being dead-set on doing all you can to prove your boss wrong and make him look bad will only end with giving you a lot more free time.

Making someone look bad won't endear you to them, it'll just get you fired. They watch the news, too, and know for every employee who causes them a headache there's 200 people out of work who would bend over backwards for a job.
posted by Kellydamnit at 8:54 PM on July 19

I run a team where we all work using similar tools and a similar workflow which we consider "optimal" with exception of one guy, whose workflow is more complex than the rest of the team for reasons of his own design.

Normally I'd be all over him to address this issue but you know what? He's been doing it for a long time and he doesn't fuck up. If he made mistakes regularly I can assure you that I'd be looking closely at how he worked pretty quickly.

So there you have it. 1) Meet expectations. 2) Everything else is gravy.

P.S. As a programmer, I can't help but wonder why your solution is a windows tool instead of a Mac tool. They obviously care enough about it for you to be on the defensive, so why not learn Applescript, cocoa/objective c or a shell based language so that they can use something that fits their environment.

P.P.S. Do it on your own time and in the meantime be humble, keep a low profile and meet their expectations, whatever they are.

P.P.P.S. If your process is so great, why not demo it to someone else on the team, and if they can easily see the merit talk to your boss about doing a "lunch & learn". If they can't see the merit, then you should consider reassessing your situation.
posted by furtive at 9:00 PM on July 19

Let's say you're right: your way is better, faster, more productive. Your boss comes over to talk to you about the amount of errors you're making compared to your fellow employees. Instead of listening and trying to see things from his point of view, you 1. Get defensive 2. Tell him how much his way sucks and that the hardware and software the company spent thousands of dollars on is total crap 3. Argue that your way is better even though you have no solid proof. 4. Stop just short of "getting personal" and saying something to your boss that has nothing to do with the situation at hand. Honestly, how did you expect this would end?

When you have your meeting, do you think your boss and his bosses will say, "Gee, 0217174's way is better! Let's get rid of all of this expensive, old crap and buy shiny, new stuff and re-train everybody else to do the work 0217174's way." Or do you think they'll say, "Let's get rid of 0217174."?

The thing is, even if you are right, you handled that exchange with your new manager all wrong. Sometimes bosses are going to say shit you don't like and tell you to do things that you think are stupid, or less efficient or whatever. You're going to have to learn to deal with that stuff without getting pissy. Or start your own company and do things your way.

You could have all the documentation in the world to prove your way is better, but it won't change the fact that you acted unprofessionally. Apologize for losing your cool and assure them it won't happen again. If they know and respect your work, this will all blow over. Let them know that you'll be happy to return to doing things their way, if that's what they want, and that you'd also be willing to show anyone who's interested your method, which you think is more efficient because of x, y, and z. If they want to pursue it, they'll let you know, but after this meeting, I think you should drop the subject or else you will come off looking like a smartass.

Good luck.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 9:03 PM on July 19 [1 favorite]

It's been said here before, but, to reiterate:

- productivity only counts if your boss likes you; likability (and this does not mean brown-nosing, but instead means communication skills, approachability, tact, etc) actually counts for more with bosses. Start practicing being likable.

- focus on what people care about; the golden rule of sales is give people what they want, not what they need

- if your innovation occurs throughout multiple projects, even if your increase in errors is caused by more productivity, you're still pissing more people off. Try to educate people well in advance about what you are trying to do, and outline the benefits; we don't like things going wrong, ever.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:40 PM on July 19

Furtive.. it's cause when I first got there it was just me so I spent about 2 months creating it for what I thought was my own purpose, like on your pc just to make things easier. It sorta evolved into just replacing the damn thing.. and at the time it was me and my manager, just the two of us.

So now I can't devote months to redoing it for mac. It would take longer cause I'd have to learn applescript, etc.. I know java but I haven't done anything on mac.. so time issues.


Lucky.. yeah, but thankfully I never actually said all this stuff to him. I didn't mention my software, productivity, etc... This stuff never came up in the convo..
posted by 0217174 at 9:42 PM on July 19

Ask more questions than you make statements.
posted by amtho at 9:43 PM on July 19 [1 favorite]

0217174, You seem to be the maverick of the whole company, allowed a different system and use your of you renegade software. So, is this a bit like the Mac vs. PC ads where the Mac guy thinks he is smarter and cooler than the PC guy...? You've stated that you feel they should switch to Mac...and that they indicated that they think they should also. Pipedream! They probably said that to placate you. This is a bit like the Ford vs. Chevy argument--and people do get defensive if they think you are disrespectful of policy. You are a David against a Goliath (outnumbered)...not to mention lots of PC people think Macs are "toys" (you and I know better---but it is often next to impossible to explain to the PC people that Mac is better).

Tomorrow keep looking for the common ground that you have with everyone involved. I imagine the common ground is to produce whatever it is that you are producing in an efficient way with few errors. If your system is "misunderstood" try to do your best to explain clearly the differences. (Write it out, make it simple, understandable by others and not condescending). Apologize and be sincere in admitting any mistakes. No need to grovel. Take this like a man and think executively. Think of the most statesman diplomatic elder man you've ever met and emulate him. Abandon any attempts to convert PC people into Mac people. Don't over explain.
posted by naplesyellow at 10:38 PM on July 19

should have read:
allowed a different system and use of your renegade software.
posted by naplesyellow at 10:39 PM on July 19

So he's your manager, huh? Well you will get the brunt end of the stick there...but someone WILL be pretty pissed off that your manager returned fire in the same high schoolish way that you did...
posted by hal_c_on at 11:44 PM on July 19

Reading your question confuses me, and I suspect that your style of explanation has confused your manager as well. In addition to what everyone else suggested, I would consider trying to think of a short, concise and clear way of explaining your point, and having it prepared before you go into the meeting tomorrow.

Stream of consciousness, like your post, makes it really hard for someone to understand exactly what you mean and in the meeting contexts that you're talking about, you may not have 15 minutes of uninterrupted speech to make your points. I suspect the reason that "this guy was not allowing me to explain it" was the verbal equivalent of tl;dr and for such things, preparing beforehand makes the conversation go a lot smoother.

Listen to you managers concerns, ask questions and express your side concisely and clearly.
posted by bsdfish at 12:20 AM on July 20 [1 favorite]

So now I can't devote months to redoing it for mac. It would take longer cause I'd have to learn applescript, etc.. I know java but I haven't done anything on mac.. so time issues.

So you spent all this time developing something that didn't fit with the corporate environment, and now that you think you're so much more productive than everyone else (without any kind of evidence, mind you), you just don't have the time to do it right anymore? Sorry, that's just bullshit.

Your whole post reeks of special snowflake syndrome. Maybe you're so proud of what you've done that you can't see the forest from the trees. If I were you I would brush up on my resume. Your problem is not so much "I am so much better than everyone else, why can't you all see it?", but more "This guy doesn't seem to be a good fit for the company, keeps making waves, and has personal issues to boot. Even if he's as productive as 3 other employees, he causes more problems than 10, so let's cut our losses and get someone who'll fit in without complaints."
posted by splice at 5:19 AM on July 20

Any help would be appreciated.

Cut back on the coffee.
posted by rokusan at 6:01 AM on July 20 [1 favorite]

I've often been on the other end of the stick; using Macs in a PC centric environment. The platform argument will get you nowhere regardless of your supporting data because the total ROI is much larger than you. this is not a platform argument. This is a worker/manager issue. The best approach is to be the humble supplicant and apologize for getting riled up. You may couch that apology by stating you feel more productive doing it your way, but understand the manager's need for uniform performance.
posted by Gungho at 6:35 AM on July 20

Get more sleep. I once acted out in frustration to a professor during a crit that had the whole class in shock -totally uncharacteristic of me and luckily the professor new this. I was just so exhausted I wasn't myself. Get well rested before the meeting, and don't defend yourself. Explain without being defensive.
posted by yeti at 7:20 AM on July 20

0217174: For example if you build 1 car, theres 20 expected mistakes. But if you make 5, there's 100.

This is where you are wrong. Before you start making 100 cars, you need to be able to make 20 with 0 mistakes.

Speaking as a manager of developers and other techies, I would much rather see improvement in quality than quantity in almost any situation. Automating an error-prone process just generates more errors that someone needs to deal with. Aside from the practical problem of this, your boss's boss may be looking at an abnormally large number of raw errors and coming down on your boss for it.
posted by mkultra at 7:59 AM on July 20 [3 favorites]

You're going to have two issues to deal with in your review: your error rate, and your abrasive behavior.

The first can be dealt with by showing hard numbers; if your percentage error rate really is comparable to other workers' then gather the evidence and be ready to demonstrate it.

I don't know for sure that my output actually is higher because I don't know or pay attention to the other people's output.

You need to find out. It may well be that you're completely in the wrong here, that your error rate really is significantly higher than that of your coworkers. (Your manager didn't decide to write you up on a whim.) Just because your software may work faster does not guarantee it works better. (And you state that you're not even sure it's faster, you just think it probably ought to be. Pretty shaky.) If you don't have access to other peoples' numbers, at least gather up your own and have verifiable statistics. "My completion rate is X per day; error rate is 0.Y%; here is documentation. Is this worse than average?"

If you really do complete work much faster than other employees, because of your custom software, then your management must surely be aware of this. They are the ones feeding you the work after all, so they know how much you're going through in a given amount of time.

Stick to the facts. Don't get personal. If you don't have facts, you have nothing. Right now you don't have facts, just a gut certainty that you're right and they're wrong. From here it doesn't sound like that's necessarily the case.

I didn't mention my software, productivity, etc... This stuff never came up in the convo.

Then... what on earth did you talk about, other than be argumentative? This is your real problem. In your description here you come off as someone who is very defensive and not very clear in explaining things, and who escalates business conversations into "ugly and personal" fights. (Yes, your manager may very well have done this too. He may even have started it. From your point of view, that's not relevant. RHIP. But, to be blunt, I get the distinct impression from your comments here that your manager is not the one who was being a dick. Or at least not the only one.) Expect to get a well-deserved dressing down for this. Apologize. Mean it.
posted by ook at 8:36 AM on July 20

I'm a little late to the conversation, but I thought I would throw in my tuppenceworth.

If you are correct, it sounds like you have a broader systems view of work, than your manager. He is focusing solely on error rate, whereas you are thinking about the overall work-completion rate.

It does sound like you have different priorities in terms of measuring what is 'good', so perhaps you can reconcile the metrics and achieve something that will improve the objectives of your department overall.

Speaking as someone who has been adamant and argumentative in the past because they were convinced they were right and doing something a better way - it really doesn't get you very far. I think it is important to be humble and certain about your facts; so after apologizing, work at how you can demonstrate that your system is indeed better, in a transparent way that doesn't offend people. People don't like being wrong, and are generally resistant to change; in addition, it may be hard to grasp what exactly you are doing differently. And the OS should not be an irreconcilable difference.

I disagree with the folks upthread who say that you should just do whatever your managers want. Of course you need to satisfy their metrics, but if they have a counter-productive metric, then that should be revised. And, people improving the way that they do a process is positive and should be encouraged so that a company is innovative. But how you tell people that is very important, and I think being polite, humble and having data is a good way of doing it when you are lower down in a hierarchical chain.
posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 8:55 AM on July 20

And how did it go?
posted by fantasticninety at 10:10 AM on July 20

I'm late too, but your situation boils down to what someone above said:


You could have all the documentation in the world to prove your way is better, but it won't change the fact that you acted unprofessionally. Apologize for losing your cool and assure them it won't happen again.

I'd add: Do NOT try to prove the advantages of your way with facts and figures.

Final note: do not speak to your managers and coworkers in the manner you write. Use phrasing suited to a professional environment. Your future at your company might very well depend on how well your tone in this upcoming meeting conveys sincerity, remorse, and most of all, respect for your manager.
posted by vincele at 11:02 AM on July 20