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I've never been in a relationship. Please help fix?
July 16, 2009 12:18 AM   Subscribe

I'm 29 and have never been in a relationship. Please tell me what is wrong with me. And maybe how to fix it.

I suppose there are some basic facts you're wondering.
Looks: mileage may vary, but generally I get pretty to hot.
Smarts/lifestyle: graduate degree with professional job.
Dating: dated a guy once for 3 weeks, hated it, dumped him. Lots of online "dating" with lots of first dates and no sparks.
Childhood: only child, domestic violence and lots of fighting but otherwise content and good student. No sex abuse so far as I can recall.
Sex: not a virgin, handful of partners, some one night stands. All so-so.

Do you know anyone else around my age or older who's never been in a serious relationship? Is it completely obvious why they've never coupled? People are usually shocked when/if I tell them. I don't know how to explain it anymore. Is this something that I need therapy to cure?
posted by Kimpossible to Human Relations (29 answers total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
It took me until I was 33 to get into my first serious relationship. I had a few short-ish ones before (the longest was 5 months) but nothing I could ever really feel serious about.

Therapy helped me understand what was preventing me getting into a more serious relationship, helped me take the risk of finding one and then helped me navigate the minefield of my own sabotaging and self-protective behaviours that emerged once I was in that relationship. I'm 15 months into my longest relationship ever and those things are still present, but therapy is helping me manage them, sort them from other issues that are arising and work out which parts are my problem and which parts are his.

There are plenty of us who started later -- I know a number of people in the same position as me and some older who still haven't had a serious relationship. Amongst those people there are a whole range of reasons why they started later (or haven't started yet).
posted by prettypretty at 12:35 AM on July 16, 2009


I think there`s not enough information here for us to gather what is wrong specifically, but I can offer that I know someone who fits your description, with the exception of her being an only child and she`s a little younger than you.

The impression I have always gotten of her is that she`s afraid of opening up to people or of showing vulnerability. Men can read this and don`t approach her, and she sabotages herself sometimes by being attracted to only unattainable men, or none at all.

Dating: dated a guy once for 3 weeks, hated it, dumped him. Lots of online "dating" with lots of first dates and no sparks.

This description reminds of what a few of my gay/lesbian friends have said of their first hetero relationships.

But nothing really jumps out as a specific reason for your woes in your question, and because of that your best bet is probably some therapy. Good luck.
posted by fan_of_all_things_small at 12:44 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I've only had two serious relationships, one in college, and one that started at age 28. Some of us are late bloomers, maybe.

What goes wrong on those dates, do you think?
posted by zompist at 12:53 AM on July 16, 2009


You don't specify where you've been online dating. It makes a difference.

I wonder if the fact that all your past experiences have been so-so is hurting you. That is, if you don't think that you're going to end up with something fantastic, then you're not likely to work really hard at it, or be driven.

One day you will find someone who is really sexually compatible with you. When that happens, it will not be so-so. The relationship may not go anywhere, but at least you will have a better precedent to measure by.
posted by Deathalicious at 1:04 AM on July 16, 2009


I'm 33 and have had three serious relationships with lots of background radiation in between each. Four if you count the high school gf (I don't.) That's anecdotal though. I know plenty of people my age who have only had one serious relationship and they are generally married to that person.

I don't think you can define yourself by other people's relationship experiences though... yeah, your situation is weird, yeah, it possibly points to deeper personality weirdness. The one thing I've absolutely learned though is that there really are people out there for you, no matter how whacked your personality may be. That doesn't guarantee healthy or even normal relationships, but it does mean that you don't have die alone.

Dated a person a while ago who I really clicked with. We enjoyed each others company, but things just weren't happening in bed. I liked her enough that I played along with it for a few dates before finally having to have a talk. Turns out she was a virgin, knew it was weird, wasn't doing it for any specific reason (i.e. religion) but just had somehow made it into her mid-20s without doing the deed and wasn't sure she wanted to start now. Turns out this is her m.o. She dates guys, has a good time, "clicks" with them and everything, then get's dumped when she drops the "it-ain't-going-to-happen-bomb." Never had a long term deal. I wished her well. The point is that it does happen...

Probably - and this is what we're not getting in your AskMe - there are recurring themes that prevent you from having had serious relationships, and that's something you can only delve into with a good therapist. We're talking head slapping, "Ohhhh... so that's why I can't get past the first date!" type stuff here.

Keep at it.
posted by wfrgms at 1:08 AM on July 16, 2009


People are different.

Do you…want a relationship?

It's all right if you don't.
posted by koeselitz at 1:12 AM on July 16, 2009 [14 favorites]


31 here, longest relationship was a year, most averaged around half a year. Therapy is helping me deal with the residuals of the last relationship (which was abusive) and is helping me find memories from my childhood which are explaining a lot about why I got into, and wouldn't leave, a bad relationship, as well as why I can't seem to stay in long-term relationships in general. Verbal abuse in my early years has turned out to be a big culprit in all of this.

I'm an only child too, and I seem to need so much time to myself that I can only date guys who are equally independent and will give me that space. That's limited the choices by well over half.

I agree with @koeselitz, it's okay if you don't want to be in a relationship. Society tells you you're supposed to want to settle down and have kids, but in the end you should do what you want and at your own pace. I made myself miserable trying to fit in before and refuse to do that again.

Good luck! I hope you get from these responses that you're not alone.
posted by sinderile at 1:32 AM on July 16, 2009


This won't help, but 51, was married in my 20s for three years, have had a string of relationships with growing intervals in between, now at an eight year interval. I've come to realise I didn't want to take risks enough to have a relationship and now it's been so long as to be impossible.

Message - take chances. Don't wait for great, never mind perfect
posted by A189Nut at 1:49 AM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Maybe there is something about you that's preventing you from connecting with the right people. Or, maybe there's not.

On average, most people probably have had some sort of "serious" relationship by your age. I don't know this for sure, I'm just guessing. If this is the case though, there's still going to be some people on the fringe - that simply based on luck and circumstance, it just hasn't happened for them yet. It has nothing to do with them, the serious relationship card simply hasn't been dealt to them yet.

As to how to fix this, I suggest the "just focus on yourself and being your own brand of awesome, and stop caring so much about finding a partner" route. Or therapy, as people already mentioned, because a therapist will be much more able to pick up on whether something is hindering your moreso than we will here.

Also, I'm in my late twenties, and I know a couple of my friends in the same age group have never had a serious relationship, and I don't see anything obvious that would be preventing them from having one. So you are definitely not alone.
posted by Squee at 1:51 AM on July 16, 2009


Like previous posters have said: It's hard to tell just from your description, and a therapist might be better at this. But do you really want a relationship? If no, maybe that's why. Do you have really close platonic friends whom you have a real connection with? If no, then maybe you have problems with making real connections.

Also, I read somewhere that on average, you'll meet the person you can truly live with for the rest of your life once every seven years. That's a pretty long time to wait alone, so most people just settle/ have failed relationships. Several of my female friends (including myself) who were single for a long time but had no other flaws only wanted Mr. Right and nothing less. I don't think they realized that they were holding out at that time. They dated other people, but nothing ever was serious until the right people for them appeared, and they instantly got into serious long-term relationships. One is now married to her first boyfriend, and there are wedding bells in the horizons for the others. Maybe you're holding out and waiting for Mr. Kimpossible to come.

Again, of course, without knowing who you are, these are just pure speculations.
posted by moiraine at 2:16 AM on July 16, 2009


One of my friends is 29 and has never been in any kind of relationship at all, not even on a date. I've never asked him why, but it seems to be a combination of two things - firstly he needs a lot of time alone, and secondly, it's very, very rare that he's ever really attracted to anyone. In the ten years I've known him, I can only think of two occasions when he's seemed interested in a particular girl (one already had a boyfriend, and he became disillusioned with the other one for some reason).

I got married at 24 (I'm now 27) and this is my first and only relationship of any sort whatsoever. I got together with my now-husband at 21 and we had been close friends since I was 18, and I have a very hard time imagining managing to get myself into any kind of relationship had this not happened. Like my friend, it's very rare for me to become attracted to anyone, and when you then take out the number of those who are attached/uninterested/unsuitable in some way, the field is narrowed even more. On top of this, I've never really understood the idea of going out with someone you're kiiiind of interested in in the hope that you start to like them more - I also need a lot of time alone, and I never wanted to compromise the freedom and independence of being single for a relationship I wasn't 100% into. Basically I just got really, really lucky with my husband - especially since we were already friends and didn't even have to do the getting-to-know-you malarkey - and had I not been, I am pretty sure I would be where you are now, only with a lot less experience. I very much agree with Squee and moiraine here - it's just luck and circumstance, and you can either wait on your own for Mr Right to turn up, or you can see how it works out with a few Mr Not-Quite-Rights in the interim.

Could it be a similar thing for you? You say there were "no sparks" on the dates you had - could it be that, rather than anything being "wrong" with you, you're just not seriously attracted to people all that often? Were the dates you went on with people you liked but who then disappointed you, or were you never really "into" them in the first place? Either way, it sounds a bit to me as though, rather than doing anything that's putting people off, you're just being picky - personally I don't see anything wrong with that (it worked out fine for me!), but I suppose it depends how much your current situation is bothering you as to whether you want/need to do something about it.
posted by raspberry-ripple at 2:39 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


There are all sorts of people out there but just about the one thing you can guarantee is that no two people have the same experiences when it comes to relationships. I have known people a lot older than you who have been in the same situation and I also know people who have found hapiness in relationships (for the first time) at an older age too.

As something of a late bloomer myself I can say that it is easy to get into a pattern of thinking this is because there is something wrong with you but it is really not the way to go about things. In fact it's a classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Once I learned to move beyond this, to realize that I was just another Joe Schmoo trying to figure it all out as I went along, just like everybody else, things got a lot better.

I will recommend counseling or therapy but not because it will be a way to 'cure' you (its not really how it works, sorry) but because it will be a way for you to explore this and figure out what *you* really want, not what you think other people expect of you. It may be that there are specific repeated patterns and/or examples of what is some times called 'mistaken thinking' that are acting as specific obstacles. If so therapists and counselors are well trained to spot and deal with these. There is also a good chance that there might not be but therapy or counseling can still be immensely valuable and you may find that the process of figuring out what is you really want is what leads you to getting it.
posted by tallus at 2:45 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'd say your major immediate concerns are (a) domestic violence risks and (b) being only child and (c) your not enjoying sex.

(a) You DO NOT want a relationship involving domestic violence, period. I imagine you know this & avoid some signs. But maybe you're attracted to other indicators of violence? Maybe you should learn more about indicators of domestic violence, ideally form scientific sources. Ask yourself if any attract you. And just fix your own bad attraction habits.

In this vein, a person who has serious trouble starting relationships is likely targeting the wrong people. Do you have many guy friends? Many girl friends? You need both. Friends are the priority. A guy who's decided he's your friend is pretty easy to drag into a relationship. You'll usually meet guy friend through girl friends.

(b) Only children often assume the world revolves around them. Even if they are very nice, generous, considerate, etc., a much less nice person with sibling experience often takes other people into account more fully & correctly. A major part of attraction is just not being too stressed about stupid shit, only children often fail this. Again, do you have many friends? Get more.

A guy who makes the same complaint is always given the advice : Your trying for girls that are too hard, try sleeping with less attractive girls. You might try relationships with some guys who already like you, just for practice. Sure, you'll end up breaking their hearts, but they'll be better off for it.

(c) If you ain't enjoying sex, then you need to figure out how. Do you know how to masturbate well? I think that's considered rather important for a woman. At the extreme, you might also experiment with more playful sexual communities, like the polyamorous or bondage groups. You know those people are pretty good at sex, even if you can't get the type of relationship you want.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:56 AM on July 16, 2009


Maybe you're asexual.
I knew a dude once who was completely without desire.
He honestly just didn't want anything other than friendship and flirting.
posted by debbie_ann at 4:10 AM on July 16, 2009


I would say that being an only child from a troubled home is a potential source of your hesitancy in persuing relationships. As said before you don't give much detail, but even if the violence was not directed at you, it is distressing, and it may be your main source of information about relationships. Seconding perhaps mild therapy, and trying to build a friendship network rather than dating per say. (I think internet dating gives people a way of persuing dating, which if they are not ready for may be counter productive.)
posted by munchbunch at 5:08 AM on July 16, 2009


Any chance you're gay?
posted by Carol Anne at 5:11 AM on July 16, 2009


Maybe online dating doesn't work for you (it would make me uncomfortable and I wouldn't do it) and you are simply not meeting enough single men in real life. At your age your friendships are pretty solidified and your social circle doesn't really expand all that much so you've exhausted all acquaintances and your workplace probably isn't hiring too many new people right now. Yeah, I know a few people that made it to their mid-late twenties without a serious relationship so you aren't that unusual. The good news is that you are just hitting the age where a lot of long-term relationships that began in the early-mid twenties break up and the dating pool suddenly expands.
posted by saucysault at 5:42 AM on July 16, 2009


I think it's actually fairly common. When I met my now-wife, she was about your age, and had never had a serious long term relationship. She'd dated plenty of people, but nothing emotionally deep or long-lasting. She wasn't broken, gay, fucked-up, or a weirdo -- she just hadn't met someone yet who sparked those feelings in her.

I think some people fall instantly into deep relationships, with "I love you"s and similar emotional intensity. But other people don't. Maybe it's because of psychological issues that would be helped by therapy, maybe it's because you haven't met the right person yet, maybe it's because you just aren't that interested in something long-term.

Honestly, there's no way for the AskMe hive mind to know why you are perpetually single -- but hopefully you can hear the message that a) it is not horrifyingly unusual; b) that therapy can be a good starting place to talk through your feelings about this; and c) that you being single until now says nothing about what situation you may want to create for yourself next year or the year after.
posted by Forktine at 5:48 AM on July 16, 2009


Lots of online "dating" with lots of first dates and no sparks.

I think it's possible you're not giving these situations a chance. On the first date, both people are usually too nervous and paying attention to all the wrong things for "sparks" to occur. I'm one of those people who endorses the three-date rule: barring serious unpleasantness, give it three dates before you decide a person isn't for you. That gives you both a little time to relax, become less self-conscious, and have fun in different settings, with the overall effect of having a much more complete picture of what the other person has to offer.

I've been with my partner over six years, and our first date was nice enough, but strange. He thought I'd be shorter, I wasn't sure if he was really my type, we walked around the city and talked for hours, and I thought, "Well that's nice, I made a friend, but I'm not sure there is really a vibe here." I had already decided not to try for a goodnight kiss. Fortunately, he kissed me, and made plans with me on the spot to go out again really soon. I spent the next several days and dates scrutinizing the whole thing from head to toe, but it wasn't until the third or fourth date when I figured out that I was crazy about him.

What I'm trying to say is that you think you know what you want and you think you'll recognize it when you see it, but you really might not, especially if you have little romantic experience to begin with.
posted by hermitosis at 6:36 AM on July 16, 2009


I don't know about therapy. Do you normally feel a spark and the guys don't? Or do the guys feel a spark and you don't? Have you ever liked somebody and felt a spark and wanted to be with them but they didn't like you back? In that case, I don't think you have a problem at all, it's just that nothing's worked out yet. You probably weren't into the guy you dated for 3 weeks, so it's a good thing you dumped him instead of dating him for the sake of a relationship. However if you've never liked anyone enough to want to date them then maybe re-evaluate what you are looking for. If that's not the problem, then take a look at your social life - if you have decent friends and people like being around you (as friends), then you're probably doing nothing wrong when it comes to guys. It just takes a lot of stars aligning to date someone - you need to be single, his type, and at a point in your life where you want to date, then a guy needs to be single, your type, and at a point in his life where he wants to date, and then you two need to meet, and be able to convey that you two want to date and not be afraid of rejection, and even then you might get to know each other a bit and decide you don't want to see each other. So that's a lot. You don't sound like you have issues or anything, so it might just be a matter of luck and being in the right place at the right time.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 6:41 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Is it that guys are not into you or you're not into them?

Do guys not approach you, or when they do, they don't follow up with asking for your number or a date?

Who doesn't feel a spark on the online dates, you or them?

Did you wish that some of the casual sexual relationships had turned long-term, or were you glad to be running out of the door the next morning, after giving a fake phone number?

Or do you find that every guy is a loser or not attractive or not worth dating?

If it's guys not seeming to be into you, that's more complicated. You could start making your way through the dating books until you find something that resonates, or you could try therapy. If you're not really into any guys, maybe you don't want a relationship, are a lesbian, or have (unjustifiably or appropriately; a therapist will know) high standards.
posted by thebazilist at 6:59 AM on July 16, 2009


How are your non-romantic relationships with family, friends and co-workers? In general, that is. Maybe some of the people you know get on your nerves or you don't enjoy being around them, but you do have a number of close, peaceful and rewarding relationships with an assortment of people. If so, you likely have good interpersonal skills and can look elsewhere for an answer. If not, you may need to work on how you relate to others.
posted by orange swan at 7:02 AM on July 16, 2009


I can see I'm joining this party late, but this was my situation too until recently. So here's my 2 cents:

My first (and current) LTR started when I was almost 29, so I know where you're coming from. The thing that took me so long was to realize that I was the reason I wasn't in a relationship; I'd had opportunities with great women (I'm a guy), just as I'm sure you've had opportunities with great men, but my mind kept throwing up roadblocks. I'd complain about the lack of sparks or that all the good ones are taken, etc. But in the end it was me, and the own sabotaging and self-protective behaviors prettypretty mentions. Do you perhaps have problems forming close friendships as well? It can all be part of the same package.

So if you want a romantic relationship (and echoing everyone else, it's OK not to - they can be great, but they can sometimes be tedious and frustrating and not a lot of fun), you're going to need to figure out why. Maybe you're gay; if so, at 29 I suspect you know this at some level, but it can be hard to accept and deal with. Maybe the domestic abuse stuff in your past is scaring you deeply at some level and that's holding you back. Maybe you have latent self-esteem issues. Maybe you're just shy, which over the years has compounded into social anxieties towards men you need to take a look at. Maybe your expectations for what should be happening on dates are really overblown. In any case, although you might be able to sort through this yourself.... this is what therapy is for. I know that counseling might be overprescribed around here, but this is what worked for me: I found a counselor, told her I felt like I was having trouble forming close relationships and that I wanted to know why, and fix it. She knew exactly where to go from there. I wasn't in counseling long, but it helped immensely. That's why they're the pros. :-)

Also echoing others, I think you might be expecting too much out of your dates. First dates often suck. My rule of thumb was always to give every woman at least two dates, preferably three, before writing her off; it can take that long for you to figure out whether you actually like each other. Sparks don't need to fly right away, and sometimes sparks aren't even what you're looking for - even a warm glow should net you another date!

So don't just hang around waiting for this to happen. If you really want this, talk to a counselor (seriously, do it, even just once, and ask them the exact question you posted), seriously try and figure out what's stopping you, go on lots and lots of dates, and if you have even a modicum of interest in a guy, go out with him again until you know you don't. It'll work eventually, but you gotta really throw yourself into the game and play for real.
posted by captainawesome at 7:31 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess from your background that you're very self-reliant. And as crazy at it sounds, that DOES limit your opportunities... not just because you probably find nothing of value in needy potential-partners, but because finding and filling a person's obvious needs is a common relationship building strategy. You have no obvious needs, so you are a tough catch.

I've always said I want to be with someone who wants me instead of needing me, but I've a friend who always responds to that by saying that the best way to get close to people is to ask them for things (and my life experience has suggested that my friend is correct). I'm notoriously self-reliant and awful about asking anyone for anything -- so I rarely meet anyone who isn't hyper-needy, and if I don't "invent" things I "need" for the few people close to me to act on from time to time they inevitably drift away.

Even if it's fake, throw the world a bone... give someone an opening to get closer (nice start here!). Hopefully you find it brings better results.
posted by Pufferish at 7:47 AM on July 16, 2009 [15 favorites]


Do you really want to be in a relationship? Or does the idea just seem nice from time to time? I'm not being glib, as a similarly situated 27/f, that's been a new thing for me to realize. Yeah, I date, I have sex, but I'm also very independent/self-reliant/need alone time. Some people function better in a relationship, even if it's not "the one." Not me, so I tend to be willing to give up less in order to be in a relationship, I'm reluctant to upset my happy little structure.

Also, since you're professional with a grad degree, you've probably spent your twenties in new environments or places, only to change gears again. Your social circle changes, your lifestyle changes, it's hard to cement enough to have a relationship, IME. Maybe now that you're more settled in your career, you'll be able to shift your focus more to your social/love life.

And, I totally agree with Pufferfish. My therapist got me to start asking people for help by reminding me that (a) people generally like to help, (b) it makes them feel good, (c) people like people more when they've been asked for help. Try it out, it works, even with silly stuff.
posted by LolaCola at 8:21 AM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


Please tell me what is wrong with me.

There is nothing wrong with you.

From what you've written, you win at life. You're educated, employed, attractive, etc.

Unless you feel at the bottom of your heart that your deep discontent is due to the lack of another person, then there is a enormous possibility you're feeling bad because, well, hey! Everyone wants a boyfriend, right?

Also, there's not a very nice way to put this, but: having a relationship is common.

Finally, to be honest, f*** relationships. I am sick of walking into a Barnes & Noble plastered in copies of relationship books featuring smiling couples who have chosen to monetize their own marriages; I am sick of hearing that relationships are the medical cure to all of life's problems; and when you've had a lifetime being told that being in a relationship, being married, is the only real model of happiness, the idea that a relationship can mend some existential crisis just seems a little empty and disenchanting.
posted by trotter at 10:08 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I know two very attractive, smart, kind people, (one male 26, one female 29) who have never had sex or been in a serious relationship. (The 29 year old female has never been kissed, even.) Neither are weird, religious zealots, sheltered or anything. It just hasn't happened for them yet. Sadly they live in two different cities so that's why we've never tried to set them up.

However the one thing I will say about them is that they have developed similar defense mechanisms of having extremely high standards, the justification in their minds being that if they've waited this long, they're not going to start just dating 'whoeever' but want to wait for someone to come and sweep them off their feet. Which is, I think, a big part of the problem. If you never take a chance on someone who isn't your type or fits your perfect ideals, you're never going to discover a whole lot of wonderful people out there. So while my two friends have everything going for them in the looks, brains, and life department, they will probably be single for a long time just due to the fact that, well, they've been single a long time and aren't willing to start taking risks with their hearts now, when they've been so picky up to this point already. Sigh...
posted by np312 at 11:08 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


just a guess, but...you carry deeply rooted ideas about relationships, formulated during your childhood, some of it traumatic based on observations of domestic violence at such a young age. they are deeply rooted and you may not be (most likely are not) aware of them.

you probably still carry these ingrained conceptions/fears of relationships that are somehow blocking you from forming meaningful, long-lasting relationships.

in addition, some characteristics that you've built up from this background of domestic violence (ability to be self-reliant, etc) have helped you to form a happy/positive adult life, but might also be preventing you from forming meaningful, long-lasting relationships (inability to trust - you've always had to rely on yourself, etc).

sorry for the 2-cent psychoanalysis. **IANAD** (i am clearly not a doctor in psychology).
posted by cranberryskies at 11:19 AM on July 16, 2009


Krikey that's a lot of help. I appreciate all your responses. First off, I am in the process of looking for a counselor/psychologist to work through some of my issues. To answer some of your questions:

- of the 20 or so dates I've been on since moving to a big city last year, I was not physically attracted to all but one. I went out more with the intention to just go out and make friends than to romantically date them. It's extremely difficult to make good, real friends in a large city.

- yeah I have high standards for men physically. I'm in pretty good shape and just can't wrap my mind around having sex with an overweight person. I could probably fall in love with a fat guy, just not have sex with him. Unfortunately, I'm very shy around men I am physically attracted to and need to work on this.

- I've considered the possibility of lesbianism, but I like men. On the other hand, maybe I'm just "programmed" to like men. I like looking at beautiful women like most people, but not really interested in having sex with them. There's something about men that's impossible to replace, genitalia aside.

- I"m not asexual, but I do have a low libido and since I've never had really good sex...don't know what I'm missing.

- yes I'm a typical only child. I have some very good friends and am very personable and friendly, but now we're separated after grad school. I haven't been able to find a similar social circle in my new city.

- I sometimes wonder if the pain of relationships is worth it.

Thank you for helping me to feel less alone. I'll bugger off now.
posted by Kimpossible at 12:31 PM on July 16, 2009


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