Should I apply for a PhD?

July 8, 2009 8:34 AM

In grad school; older student. Should I apply to a PhD program?

Currently weighing a major life decision and could use some advice from others with academia experience.

I am a 28 year old who has embarked on the process of writing a thesis for an international relations MA. Before returning to school at 26, I had been in the workplace for four years. During this time, I worked primarily in journalism and consulting. I enjoyed my work and opted for graduate school primarily to increase my choice of employment options.

However, I am being encouraged by several faculty members I work with to pursue a PhD in the field or in a closely related one. While I am honored and flattered they think I'm doctor material... I am not sure it's right for me.

The idea of being away from the workplace for three or more years is a serious one. Moreso, I worry that opting for a doctorate (even if it is in a field dealing with geopolitics) will lock me into working in academia - something I'm not sure I want to do.

The decision to pursue a doctorate in the liberal arts is a quite serious one. However, I come from a family with a modest educational & socio-economic background and the people I have to discuss this subject with... well, they are fellow graduate students and professors - a biased group sample if there is one.

So, MeFi users, I ask you - is there any sense in entering into a PhD program in the liberal arts?

posted by anonymous to education (24 comments total)

I'm 29, and I'll be entering a doctoral program this fall. You age is not an issue; although it's increasingly common in many fields for students to go BA to PhD, I'd say that a very substantial number of doctoral students are in their late 20's and early thirties. Depending on the field, most doctoral students may be in this age range. What is an issue, however, is this:

"The idea of being away from the workplace for three or more years is a serious one. Moreso, I worry that opting for a doctorate (even if it is in a field dealing with geopolitics) will lock me into working in academia - something I'm not sure I want to do."

I'm not familiar with your field, so the onus is on you to determine whether or not your PhD would translate into a job outside of academia. In most cases, for doctoral degrees in humanities, this is not the case. People in the humanities certainly do transition from academia into the workforce, but it usually takes quite a bit of looking to find a suitable niche. If you're not sure that you want to leave the workforce for long enough to get a doctoral degree, and you're not sure that you want a career in academia, I don't think you should make the decision to apply right now. You need to clarify your goals first in order to decide if this (huge!) commitment of work and time is going to pay off for you. Ultimately, when I made the decision to apply, I decided that I had to be comfortable with the fact that I may just be doing this as a personal goal. I may never get my dream job in return for the time and effort I'm going to be putting in, but it's something that I want to do anyway for the love of my field/time to spend pursuing my personal passions. If that kind of thinking sounds like crazy-talk to you, you might be jumping down the wrong rabbit hole.
posted by theantikitty at 8:50 AM on July 8

PS: Again, I don't know your field, but I've pretty much never heard of anyone completing a doctoral degree in 3 years. Unless this is a particular program/track that's structured for 3-4 year completion, you may need to look into the fact that many doctoral students in the humanities regularly take 6-7+ years to complete their degree. YMMV in your field or program.
posted by theantikitty at 8:53 AM on July 8

I'm 34 and working on a doctorate in Public History. However, I also work full-time as library faculty at the same university. Let me just say, working full time while working on a degree that is this intense is not fun. I have no life at times because everything revolves around work and school.

That said, a number of classmates are your age, and because of the hands-on nature of our field, they spend a lot of time while writing dissertations and so forth in paid internships. The benefit to that is that when they graduate, they will not have been "out of the workforce". They are getting additional training in the field, and making very important contacts.

While you're finishing up your MA, see if there are any internship programs in your field. Talk to your advisors about what exactly you would do with this degree if you pursued it.

Also, while you can go back at get your Phd later if you change your mind, it's a righteous pain in the ass to work full time and try to fit in graduate classes. So it may be in your best interest to go ahead and do it now while you can.
posted by teleri025 at 8:59 AM on July 8

It sounds like your faculty members think you are capable of doing a PhD. They can't say whether you want to do one. And your post doesn't really make it sound like you do. It's hard, and unless it's something you really want to do, you are unlikely to be successful. Don't do it.
posted by grouse at 9:04 AM on July 8

I'm with grouse here. It's all very well for faculty to say that you're capable of doing a Ph.D but unless you really want to put in the effort you're unlikely to finish. People look at writing a dissertation as the hard part, and it is, but it's all the other little things that go with it, the hoops that you have to jump through, the revisions the rewording of things that really test your commitment. These things occur even if you have the best advisor in the world (which was true in my case), couple these things with a needy or a downright psychotic advisor and you can see that unless you're really committed to your research you won't finish.
posted by ob at 9:23 AM on July 8

From what you've written, it seems like obtaining a PhD is not one of your life goals.

Listen to your heart/gut/etc and make a decision.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:26 AM on July 8

If by "geopolitics" you mean political science, it is a social science degree, not a humanities degree, and therefore much more marketable outside academia. Look into degree programs that cater to policy careers if you're concerned that you don't want to be an academic (SAIS, Tufts, KSG, Harris School, LSE, etc.). FWIW I have a degree from a top program and approximately 1/3 of my cohort is in academia, 1/3 is in government/thinktank/consulting, and 1/3 are in the private sector. Also, if you decide to go for a Ph.D., you should NEVER pay for it; they will pay you a stipend and waive your tuition. You can also often supplement your income with paid internships in the summers.
posted by B-squared at 9:42 AM on July 8

PhD good reasons:
* A chance to work on a topic you are passionate about (VERY passionate about)
* A chance to continue working in academia - because you love the lifestyle and the people.
* A massive respect for the mentoring skills, selflessness and genius of your supervisor.
* You want to get a job in academia.
* Money is not an overwhelming issue (because you are getting a grant or you have plenty)

PhD poor reasons:
* The prestige of the qualification
* The earning power conferred by the qualification
* The certainty that you will revolutionise your chosen field
* Uncertainty about what else you would do
* You think you would be able to get one in less time than average.
* You fulfil the minimum academic requirements to be accepted on one.
posted by rongorongo at 9:51 AM on July 8 [11 favorites has favorites]

It's fantastic that you have professors who think you are doctoral material. That's a great vote of confidence from folks who have probably seen a fair share of students come through their program. So I'd have faith in your ability to handle the work load if you do apply.

However, I can't help but notice that you don't mention any reasons that you'd actually want to pursue a PhD. As someone who is in the last year of a doctoral program, I can tell you that a clear vision of what you want to do and why you need a PhD to do it is indispensable. At least in my field, their isn't a whole lot of extrinsic reward during the process; the lack of money, the endless work, and the frequent brutal, if well meaning, criticism will drag you down pretty quickly if you don't know why you're going through it all and what it will be worth. Also, as theantikitty pointed out, a certain amount of geek-love for your subject matter helps too; it makes reading all those articles and writing papers less of a chore and more of an indulgence of your interests.

You say you don't want to go into academia. What would getting a PhD do for you? Would it really open any options that you're interested in that your MA won't already do? Also, this varies for different programs, but the push toward academia in some departments can be pretty intense. It's what the professors know, and some are less than supportive if you aren't on that track as well. So if you do decide to apply, make sure you ask students what sort of internships or other "real world" opportunities there are and the attitude towards pursuing them from your potential faculty advisors.

So, I wouldn't count it out, but I'd say it sounds like you need to do some more reflecting. Maybe find out what graduates who don't go into academia do with their doctorate, and even try to talk to a few of the alumni. Definitely don't do it just as "the next step". The PhD is as much about stamina as talent, and you need a personal goal beyond the letters that you're shooting for. Good luck with the decision!
posted by 44sunsets at 10:14 AM on July 8

Another thing to consider is that many faculty (especially Sr.) are out of touch with the economic value of their PhD programs. A New Yorker some opinion. There was this provocative Chronicle article recently.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 10:15 AM on July 8

Easy answer: don't do it.

Too many people get into Ph.D programs for the prestige and the flattery of it; your profs think you'd be great at it, you get accepted, you get fully funded! Daddy will be so proud, finally! These are not good reasons to do a Ph.D.

This is the Ph.D experience of every person I've ever met, including me: it's not as intellectually challenging as you hope, it's tedious and boring as hell, and at least partway though you will start doubting whether you really want to do this at all. The only people for whom this is really worth it are the people who have such a burning passion for the subject matter that everything else pales in comparison.

When I was considering dropping out, I said this to a relatively famous academic: "I don't want to be 40 and living in a bachelor apartment."

I felt that that's where I was heading; I didn't have and didn't see any prospects of having a healthy living wage, all my attention had to be devoted to my work and not to my other burgeoning interests (like technology and teaching, ironically enough), and given the economy even then (early 2000s) I would have be satisfied to take a job wherever I could get one, no matter what I thought of the place or how far it was from my friends and family. Be satisfied? No, be bloody delighted; there simply aren't a lot of positions available in my former field. Oh, and be paid peanuts until I could groom myself for a proper tenure track job, if I were ever lucky enough to get one. It seemed very bleak to me. All the post-docs I knew lived in shitty bachelor apartments and didn't care; they loved the work so much that such things didn't matter to them. One of the post-docs I knew lived in his mother's basement, waiting for a tenure track job. He was over 40. I was increasingly disliking this future.

"What's wrong with a bachelor apartment?!" the relatively famous academic responded, a little offended. Yep. He was living in one too, but he was in his 50s. That pretty much sealed it for me.

Think this one out really carefully. At least take some time out and go back into the workforce. Decide whether you really want that academic life or not. Ph.D programs are designed on the presumption that it's the only thing you care about.
posted by Hildegarde at 10:16 AM on July 8 [3 favorites has favorites]

The only people for whom this is really worth it are the people who have such a burning passion for the subject matter that everything else pales in comparison.

That is the absolute God's honest truth. The ONLY people who should enter a Ph.D. program are those who cannot be talked out of it.
posted by Crotalus at 10:31 AM on July 8 [1 favorite has favorites]

Actually, I'd say that the people who do the best in a (social science) PhD program aren't the people who are OMG SUPER PASSIONATE about it -- they tend to burn out quickly and leave in disgust when they find out that the discipline doesn't function as a larger-scale version of what they did as SLAC undergrads.

The people who tend to do best are the people who, sure, are interested in what they do, and care about it, but who also treat it in a sort of workmanlike fashion as a job; as work rather than as the apotheosis of their very being.

If you describe what you want to do in IR as "liberal arts" because you're interested in what amounts to political theory or philosophy of IR, then... just don't. Run away screaming. If what you're interested is more quantitative, formal-theoretical, or theoretically-informed-qual stuff, then maybe.

A PhD in IR with some reasonable quantitative component and maybe a formal-theoretic component would also stand you in good stead for the federal government in general, or as a quant-jock for any number of market research firms, or firms that do other kinds of quant analysis. I knew a dude that left the discipline to become the head quant jock for one of the shopping channels; he was surprised to find that while they had a quant-analysis department, they'd never heard of interactive effects.

But if you don't want academia or related stuff like the above, then don't.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:16 AM on July 8 [1 favorite has favorites]

Nthing 44sunsets and others. It doesn't seem as though you really want this. Feel flattered, not obligated.

Now that I'm out and working in my field, everybody is asking me if I'm going back for my PhD and when I tell them I'm not, they say, "Oh, but you should!" I feel like I'm making a lot more headway out in my field meeting the key players and making good contacts than I would be from another 4+ years of academia. YMMV.

FWIW, If you were in my department's PhD program, you would actually be one of the younger students.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:28 AM on July 8

Don't do it!!!

After 6 years, I am finally finishing up a Ph.D. in microbiology. I majored in biology in undergrad, spent a few years afterwards doing laboratory research in both industry and academia, and decided to pursue a Ph.D. because I liked science, I liked research, and I was pretty good at it. Six years later, I would say that it was the worst decision I ever made.

Unless your life goal is to become a faculty member at an academic institution (which it doesn't sound like it is), I would highly dissuade you from embarking on a Ph.D. A long stint in academia has the capabilites of becoming a soul-crushing experience in which you lose confidence in your abilities as well as your enjoyment of that subject area you once loved. Yes, I am highly jaded and I'm sure many people have a much more positive experience in graduate school. But really, don't get a Ph.D. because you can, or because people suggest it to you. Do it because you want to be a life-long academic and you've found a subject that is the most care about more than anything else in your life.
posted by emd3737 at 12:09 PM on July 8 [1 favorite has favorites]

If you're not sure about it, don't do it -- the PhD is a massive commitment of time, energy, and foregone money. It can be immensely rewarding, but only if you're truly passionate about it.
posted by modernnomad at 12:23 PM on July 8

Agreeing with most people (everyone?) here. Don't get flattered into going for it. This article addresses that particular motivation, among others, well. The author is a bit too extreme, but it's all worth thinking about.
posted by Beardman at 2:23 PM on July 8

Or, rather than click my link, you could click on the one that robot made out of meat already referred you to...
posted by Beardman at 2:26 PM on July 8

Nthing what everybody else has said. I drifted into a PhD program simply because I couldn't think of anything else to do. It didn't take me long to realize that I've made a huge mistake. If you don't have a furious passion for your subject and a willingness to work hard at it, you'll be incredibly miserable.
posted by Rangeboy at 3:08 PM on July 8

Yes to what others have said, but adding my voice because I love my PhD program (in a liberal arts field, at a top 5 school for my interest/specialization.) I entered my PhD program with an MA in a related field at 33 and don't regret it. I was successful in another career (I was a VP in IT) but wasn't happy doing it. I could have continued to work and pursue my academic interests as a hobby, but didn't want that. Now I'm doing what I want and have never been happier. Yes, job prospects in my field are woefully thin, but fuck it, I'm doing exactly what I want. But yes, PhD's are designed to teach you how to teach college and produce scholarship in your field, and maybe in your field qualify you for certain positions outside of academia, but I would set that aside for a moment and ask yourself if you love what you're doing enough to study it intensely for 4 or 5 or more years. Will you feel fulfilled in your chosen line of work should you not pursue a PhD? Will you regret it? Those are the questions I would ask - I think it's tough to answer the question 'am I passionate enough' when making this decision. I just think you have to want to do it more than your other options. Another thought - nobody will make you finish your PhD, so if you hate it, you can always quit.
posted by drobot at 4:09 PM on July 8

This thread is a downer. PhDs in international relations are NOT only for those who aspire to be academics. I know better than they do.

Honestly, the easiest thing to do is peruse the credentials of people whose jobs you want and go from there. If the person working in your dream job has a PhD...or if not...
posted by B-squared at 6:30 PM on July 8

What you need is some less biased opinions from someone in your field.

Look up the admissions offices for the programs you'd be applying to. Ask each one for a list of graduates who are working outside academia.

(You'll probably find that some programs only keep lists of graduates who are working in academia. Avoid those programs like the plague unless you have a very good reason not to. Some departments do have huge institutional blinders on that prevent them from seeing the private and government sectors at all, and that's not the sort of place you're looking for.)

And then contact some of those graduates — especially if there are any you've got real-world connections to — and ask, politely, for advice. If any are in your area, ask for an informational interview. Talk to them about the path they took from their Ph.D. program to their current job. Don't suck up or dig for dirt or anything weird like that, just scope out what the opportunities are like for people with your interests and the degree you'd be shooting for.

Everyone's right that it's a bad move to get a Ph.D. with the assumption that you'll find academic work. But you're not making that assumption; you're trying, quite wisely, to keep your options open. And you're not in Medieval Studies or Comparative Literature — there are real live jobs doing what you want to do. So ignore the naysayers here, ignore your (probably biased) professors, and find out more from the people who are actually holding those real-world jobs.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:31 AM on July 9 [1 favorite has favorites]

True:

Actually, I'd say that the people who do the best in a (social science) PhD program aren't the people who are OMG SUPER PASSIONATE about it -- they tend to burn out quickly and leave in disgust when they find out that the discipline doesn't function as a larger-scale version of what they did as SLAC undergrads.

The people who tend to do best are the people who, sure, are interested in what they do, and care about it, but who also treat it in a sort of workmanlike fashion as a job; as work rather than as the apotheosis of their very being.
posted by salvia at 11:24 PM on July 9

Not sure on your gender, but if you're 28 and female and you're interested in having a family, please consider that getting a PhD and going into academia doesn't always work well with a biological clock. If your program takes 5-6 years and you don't have a baby during the program, you'll be edging close to 35 and for baby-makin', things do get more complicated after one turns 35 (more doc appointments, more testing, greater likelihood of bedrest). Then if you're going for tenure, it is more challenging to be pregnant and have a baby while you're busy doing all the tenure-work. While some universities do have a tenure clock stopping procedure for maternity, some don't and many don't really honor them.

Additionally, children or not, the time commitment is something that I don't think that anyone really understands until they are in the trenches. For my program at least, assume that you'll be working on weekends and evenings. Many of my fellow grads find it quite difficult to date if they're looking and those of us with partners don't get to see much of them.

There are tons of questions on here about grad school and academia generally and the lifestyle. Please read them before you dive in.
posted by k8t at 3:59 PM on July 12