i know there "are no rules" but what are the rules?

June 15, 2009 3:36 PM

guys, how long do you wait before you call for a second date? cause i know that we all claim not to play games, and yet, people play games.

some of you may know a little of my history here on askme: mostly dating questions bc that's pretty much the one thing in my life i find completely perplexing, despite having spent most of my life doing it. i feel like at my age, i shouldn't even have to ask this question but here i am, asking this question.…so i recently started dating again after taking a break last fall. had a few meh dates and then last thursday, a date with a guy i met online that became one of my all time best first dates. couple of emails which were fine, and then a lot of texting—and the banter was great so i think we were both pretty excited about meeting each other (he even postponed something to go out with me on the one night that week i could). we originally just planned to do drinks but that went so well that we ended up getting dinner and dessert as well. conversation flowed, and again, the banter was great. no awkward pauses, same humor, many things in common, similar careers and aesthetics, the whole nine. no red flags, he just seems solid: he's nice, attentive, close with his family, and totally hot.

after dessert, we went back to his place and hung out a bit and, not surprisingly ended up making out. best. kisser. ever. and i do not throw that title around easily. he tried to take it further but when he realized it wasn't going to happen made a joke about having had to try anyway, and didn't push again despite our continuing to kiss. anyway, it was super late, and a school night, and i was tired so we decided i'd stay over and he'd take me back in the morning. more kissing, lots of snuggling (i'm a bit of a squirrely sleeper but every time i turned over, he would too so he could still cuddle me). a few times during the night, one of us just wakes up a bit and we smooch again and then go back to sleep. everything is fabulous.

except…i haven't heard from him since. what gives? am i, as i famously am, just being too impatient? all my girl friends are throwing out the 3-day rule and telling me to now forget about him, he's dead to them. but my guy friends are telling me that if he just wanted to get into my pants, he'd already have called to set up another encounter but if he really liked me, he'd wait about a week before calling again—"to build the suspense—and it works every time."

what? please, mefites (scody, you are so wise…), reassure me or slap some sense into me. i give really good date, but it's the in-between stuff that makes me crazy.

(ps: don't know if this makes a difference but he's a couple of years older than me [late 30s], divorced a year [been together ten, married three, still friendly with the ex]) but i think he's been dating for about six months now?)

posted by violetk to human relations (82 comments total)

What's stopping you from calling him yourself?
posted by phatkitten at 3:42 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

you last spoke on Friday and now it's Monday? He shouldn't be dead to you yet. Also: nobody on metafilter can tell you why he hasn't called yet or whether he will in the future. If you want to send him an email saying you had a great time, you have my permission to do so.
posted by moxiedoll at 3:42 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

Maybe he's waiting for you to call.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:44 PM on June 15

So you can't call him?
posted by Danf at 3:44 PM on June 15

Impatient thing, you. ;) Email him, tell him you had a great time. On preview, 2nding moxiedoll.
posted by December at 3:45 PM on June 15

I normally wait about three days, so he's very slightly past my normal wait period, but (and a lot of people are shocked to learn this) I am not the universal standard in dating etiquette. What your girlfriends are not telling you, and what I suspect you will hear over and over from MeFites, is that you will not be violating any sort of sacred guidelines if you initiate communication yourself.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:46 PM on June 15

bc everyone one of my friends is telling me they will kill me if i call him. and every guy friend is telling me that if it was them, and i called, they'd think i was too eager, and well, it would be better to wait till he called. this is why i hate this.
posted by violetk at 3:47 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

Good god, honey. Life is not a romantic comedy and dating isn't rocket science. You're both people equally capable of making a phone call, I assume?

Call him if you want to touch base, and hereafter resolve to stop overthinking this stuff.
posted by padraigin at 3:47 PM on June 15 [6 favorites has favorites]

Your friends are idiots.

If he were me, I'd be wondering why you haven't called. Then I would get over it (hopefully) and call you. It works both ways, so if you're both chomping your fingernails, it's going to fail before it begins.

In other words, just freakin' call him already.
posted by zerokey at 3:48 PM on June 15 [5 favorites has favorites]

"Too eager" after three days? Fuck that, if that is how he would feel then he isn't worth dating in the first place. Either he likes you or he doesn't and you aren't going to know until you call. Screw your friends and do what you think is right.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:49 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

bc everyone one of my friends is telling me they will kill me if i call him. and every guy friend is telling me that if it was them, and i called, they'd think i was too eager, and well, it would be better to wait till he called. this is why i hate this.

Your friends are not really, literally going to kill you.

What the hell is wrong with being eager? Christ, this whole ironic detachment thing we're all supposed to cultivate is tiresome.
posted by padraigin at 3:51 PM on June 15 [17 favorites has favorites]

bc everyone one of my friends is telling me they will kill me if i call him. and every guy friend is telling me that if it was them, and i called, they'd think i was too eager, and well, it would be better to wait till he called. this is why i hate this.
posted by violetk at 3:47 PM on June 15 [+] [!]

Yeah, I've heard that guys really dislike when women they like call them.

C'mon! Dial phone/send email.
posted by December at 3:52 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

Call him. There really are no rules. He's an adult and so are you, and as such, probably have things going on in your lives. Send a cute text message or a short enticing email if you don't want to call, but don't wait around passively.
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:53 PM on June 15

The 3-day rule is "men must do the pursuing" game-playing nonsense. Feel free to ignore anyone who trots out this sort of foolishness.

If you had a great time on Thursday and continued to have contact over the weekend, the perfectly normal, adult thing to do is for you to call or email and ask him out on a second date.

Make a specific suggestion -- could be a restaurant or a band or a movie or a museum, whatever seems appropriate to your shared interests -- for a specific day. If he says yes, you're good. If he says no but offers a concrete alternative, you're still good. If he ignores you or says no without offering an alternative, you'll know without investing too much further time or energy that (for whatever reason) things don't appear to be going forward.

The most radical thing I ever learned about good relationships -- courtesy of my preturnaturally healthy and stable boyfriend, who helped me get it through my neurotic skull when we first started dating and who must therefore get the credit for any wisdom I appear to have -- is they are predicated on making your needs or interests known in a clear, direct, respectful way. That includes saying "I had a great time last week; want to grab some barbecue on Wednesday?"
posted by scody at 3:53 PM on June 15 [2 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, your friends are not helping. Send him an email; it's been a respectable amount of time. - not too much and not too little. Now you can email him and talk about how just had a busy weekend but wanted to get back to him and thank him for a lovely evening and would love to get together again. And then see what happens. No harm in it at all. (I'm a girl, too).
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:54 PM on June 15

look, i am so with you guys. my first instinct would be to call. and in the past i have. but i haven't exactly been too successful in getting past the first several dates—mainly bc i haven't given a shit about these stupid games. but i have asked every single male friend i have (at some point or other) and the answer is always the same: let him chase you. do i think it's b.s., yes. but do i think guys aren't being entirely truthful when they say that on some level they aren't thinking this? i have to start to wonder…
posted by violetk at 3:57 PM on June 15

If I were in your place, I wouldn't initiate contact. This is good way to find out if he is interested in you. (Just one possible scenario: he might like you, but he might be seeing other people, too, and not calling you may just be his attempt at a graceful exit. Or perhaps he has a three-day rule about calling. You know? It's impossible to tell what the reason may be, but in the end, not calling you is still not calling you. And if he doesn't call, then you know he's not interested and you can move on). Good luck!
posted by val5a at 3:57 PM on June 15 [2 favorites has favorites]

Life isn't always all fun and games. For all any of us know, a family crisis popped up for him moments before he was about to call you yesterday, and he's been busy with it since.

Phones go two ways. Maybe initiative should, too. Call him.
posted by Zed at 3:57 PM on June 15

Sheesh, stupid friends. If you want to see him, call him and say as much. It sounds like that's what you want, and if that's not the sort of "timing" or whatever that the guy wants, then it wouldn't work out anyway.

People aren't mindless little Simon Says games where you win if you push the right buttons in the right order.
posted by losvedir at 4:00 PM on June 15 [2 favorites has favorites]

I think these sort of hard and fast rules really loosen up as people get older and there are more mitigating factors to why people might call or not call. It's possible that he thought that by pushign for sex and you saying no that he might have pushed a boundary and wants to make sure you're still interested. It's also possible that he's not interested in someone who doesn't put out on the first date. It's possible that he has been killed by a meteor.

When I met someone I really liked, who also seemed to like me back (but no kissyfacing or other stuff happened, we'd just met) I had email from him the next day saying "wow I had a great time and I really like you" and I got to email back "hey great me too" and that was it.

It doesn't have to be difficult, and if you bring your friends into your every dating move, it's a recipe for dissatisfaction because you'll be second-guessing yourself no matter what happens. Call or email or do something lightweight saying how much you enjoyed yourself and how you'd like to see him again (ditto scody on say something specific, she is wise). If he does anything other than say some variant of "hey me too" then maybe it's not the right dude. Life's too short to be dating mystery men, even if they're awesome kissers.
posted by jessamyn at 4:01 PM on June 15

but i have asked every single male friend i have (at some point or other) and the answer is always the same: let him chase you.

If I asked every single one of my male friends this question, they wouldn't say "let him chase you." Seriously, just fucking call the guy already and be done with it. This is too much drama for such a simple situation that it isn't even funny.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 4:03 PM on June 15 [5 favorites has favorites]

but i have asked every single male friend i have (at some point or other) and the answer is always the same: let him chase you. do i think it's b.s., yes. but do i think guys aren't being entirely truthful when they say that on some level they aren't thinking this? i have to start to wonder…

Oh, Swingers, what hast thou wrought?

I promise you that the idea that all, or most, or the best relationships are based on letting the guy do all the pursuing is a false one. The truth is that successful courtships tend to involve a more equal amount of give and take between parties.

I would also guess that if you thought for a minute about the relationship histories of your male friends who are giving you this silly advice, you'd probably come to the conclusion that they are talking out of their asses.
posted by padraigin at 4:10 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

You're 30 and this is what your friends tell you?!

If the guy you're chasing after is a mature human being, he will not mind if you call him three days later. It is not a big deal.
posted by kldickson at 4:10 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

I will prove scientifically that you should email him and say you had a great time:
If he likes you: an email will not make him stop liking you.
If he isn't interested: an email won't make you feel embarrassed or foolish - it's just polite.
If he's consumed by this same Rules Bullshit, or nervous because he hasn't dated in ten years, or neurotic about whether he came on too strong... it'll give him a clear green light to ask you out again.

No matter what, it'll put you out of your misery, and there are no possible harmful consequences. So you should email him. Q.E.D.
posted by moxiedoll at 4:11 PM on June 15 [9 favorites has favorites]

To clarify some things you wonder about in your title and post: of course people play games. People who claim to be oh-so-pure-and-honest just don't recognize they're doing it. Flirting and dating is games. But that's not the same as hard-and-fast rules. There aren't any of those, except in the minds of certain people who you don't want to be dating.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 4:12 PM on June 15

No man who A) genuinely likes you and B) is emotionally older than 15 will be put off by you calling him and asking him out on a date. Or, to put it another way, if he decides he doesn't like you because you called him, you're well rid of him.

Parsing and re-parsing the minutiae of every hypothetical scenario and every opinion of each and every friend is crazy-making. Be a grown-up and be direct.
posted by scody at 4:14 PM on June 15

You really need to find new friends. If all your adult friends are regurgitating Seventeen magazine based gender specific advice and believing it so seriously that they are threatening you with bodily harm -- you may actually be part of a cult. I would almost consider this chat filter, if it weren't for the fact that you are in such a perilous social circle.

I would start there, clearly your social network is retarding your romantic life. Then, with your new found freedom, you'll find that most people - boys and girls alike- like to communicate through common forms of communication, such as phone, internet, even texting, and you'll call this dude up and see what's up.
posted by RajahKing at 4:15 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

I am always, always the lone dissenter on these things. He will call if you if he's interested. Flame away.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 4:25 PM on June 15 [4 favorites has favorites]

I think your friends are foolish. And all of the "rules" I think are infuriating and just turn your internal feelings of what you want into stewing and suffering.

If you like him, call him. There is NOTHING wrong with that. If he likes you, fantastic, you've let him know that you like him too! If he doesn't want another date, you get your answer and you can stop wondering if it'll happen or not.

If he likes you, he will be happy to hear from you. He won't be thinking that you broke any rules, just that he's glad you called. :)
posted by davidnc at 4:42 PM on June 15

I am always, always the lone dissenter on these things. He will call if you if he's interested. Flame away.

No flames or anything, because you do have a point. But, these things can always be turned on their head. She IS interested, and yet she hasn't called him, so how is his non-call proof of anything? He could be very shy, or anxious, or busy. And waiting for someone to call is a very passive, unsettling, and sometimes agonizing thing to do. Why sit around wondering and making assumptions if she really likes this guy? An email or text is pretty low-stress, and gives her some agency and control over the situation. Sure, he might be lukewarm or not respond, but then again he might be excited and welcome the communication. I say, nothing to lose by reaching out.

It's fine to go to your friends for advice, but you need to stand on your own two feet and figure out what you want and how you want to go about getting it. Don't be afraid to do something you want to do because others are pressuring you not to, or vice versa, even if they have the best of intentions.
posted by JenMarie at 4:50 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

He should have called you, emailed, or whatever you by now.

If you want to continue pursuing this, call him up. After 3 days, the "too eager" clause is no longer valid. However, be aware that there is a high chance that he's not into you as much as you are into them. I bet that is why your friends are telling you to wait to contact him. They don't want you to get too excited and get too hurt by charging into someone who doesn't want you as much as you want them. They've seen you broken and they want you to avoid your tendency to fall too hard, too fast, with someone who doesn't like you as much.
posted by Stynxno at 4:56 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

I would call him. I would not want a guy who would consider it a deal-breaker if I were the first to call after a good date. But then, you are not me.

So, stop thinking about the impression you're making on him. Start thinking about the impression he is making with you.

What do you want in a relationship? Do you want a relationship with equal give and take? If so, give him a call, and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, then maybe you aren't meant for one another. Or, do you want a relationship that follows traditional gender norms? Do you prefer to take a more passive role in all of your relationships? Are you only turned on by guys who take the lead? In that case, wait and see if he calls. If he does, great. If not, then maybe you aren't meant for one another -- whether that's because he wasn't all that interested for whatever reason, or because he wants a woman who's willing to be assertive and upfront, or whatever.

I tend to think that while there "are no universal rules" for courtship, everybody should have their own "rules." And by "rules" I mean "an expectation of what they're hoping for, and an idea of how to behave in line with those expectations." And for the love of all that is good and right in the world, grow a pair, learn that your friends' "rules" do not have to be your "rules," and do whatever the heck you want.
posted by amelioration at 5:02 PM on June 15 [2 favorites has favorites]

Um... I'm not an expert on these things, but given your history, I vote for refraining from calling.
posted by aielen at 5:27 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

but given your history, I vote for refraining from calling

Given her history, I submit that she needs to learn to quit waiting for things to happen to her, agonizing over them and discussing them in minute detail with people to kill time while she waits, and to start making things happen on her own.

If it doesn't work out, at least she did something other than wait around for it to not work out.
posted by padraigin at 6:01 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

So wait- you were texting like crazy before you met up, and now you haven't even texted? Maybe he thinks you hate him.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:19 PM on June 15

Your friends are not you. If you liked him and he hasn't called in a few days to a week then call him and see him for coffee at the very least. Some guys are shy. Some guys are slow. Some guys just don't know what to do, or obsess over these things like you seem to be doing. If neither one of you acts nothing will happen, that is the only surety.
posted by caddis at 6:23 PM on June 15

The thing is, whether you call or not, or wait or not, I don't think it's going to change anything. Either he's waiting to call a bit, or busy, and you call and that's fine, or he's not going to call, and you call, and you don't hear, and then you know it's not on.

I don't think you call and then he freaks out and it's over. It has nothing to do with the call.

People get supersticious based on past experiences, but really it's just going to be on or it's not. So you are not going to ruin anything by calling him. Kind of existential but I think it's true.

Just don't be like OMFG!!! I'm IN LOVE WIHT YOU!!! LOL!!!!!! LET's HAVE TEH BABIES!!!

Have a glass of alcohol first, breath into a paper bag. Then call.
posted by sully75 at 6:27 PM on June 15

have you called him yet??
posted by metastability at 6:41 PM on June 15

My rule of thumb is if waiting for someone to call/contact is breaking me up so bad it's distracting me from everything else, I initiate contact myself. If he likes you, calling him two days later is not going to make him un-like you. If anything, seeing an active interest being taken might be enough to nudge him towards hanging out again.
posted by SassHat at 7:01 PM on June 15

Seconding notjustfoxybrown.

If he wants to see you again, he will call you. Don't call him. Don't agonize.
posted by pecanpies at 7:01 PM on June 15

1. You should not wait for him to call. Since the last time you saw him, you have (or should have been) hanging out with your friends (not discussing him), seeing movies, talking to your family, walking your dog, seeking and going out on other dates, kicking ass at work, learning to play the cello, etc etc.

2. Just because not calling is agonizing and difficult doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. It might be so tempting to scratch a mosquito bite -- it's screaming out to you, it's calling your name, it wouldn't really be a big deal, what could be the harm in one little scratch, maybe just a hard rub... but you know that the best thing really is to stop thinking about, occupy yourself with other things, and it'll stop itching. If you are agonizing beyond distraction, it's not an indication that you should give in to your obsession; it means you should get control of yourself and get a hobby (See No. 1).

3. Calling won't make him hate you if he likes you. But it might prolong something that wasn't meant to be. Maybe he likes you but he's not crazy about you; he hasn't been thinking about you non-stop dying to hear your voice again, thinking that he'd better ask you out asap before you meet some other guy and God-forbid forget all about him. But if you called, sure he likes you, and he'll go out with you, and maybe you'll even date for a while, but his comparative lack of interest will always be an undercurrent, niggling at you.

4. Finally, the reason why your agonizing-but-not-calling is acceptable while his is not is because ducks flame men and women approach courtship differently. Maybe it's not genetic, maybe it's nature instead of nurture, and (more likely) it's all a matter of what kind of relationship you want. But if (and maybe you don't) you do want a relationship in which he's head over heels for you, pursuing you, calling you, buying you flowers just because, then that needs to start from the beginning. He's either there or he isn't, and you can't nudge him into it by calling/texting/e-mailing. You can't remind him to like you more than he does.
posted by thebazilist at 7:07 PM on June 15 [7 favorites has favorites]

And if all of your friends, male and female, are telling you not to call, if there isn't even at least one "just call him already!" friend, then they probably know something we don't about you and the way you behave in relationships, and you should listen.
posted by thebazilist at 7:10 PM on June 15 [3 favorites has favorites]

I honestly don't think it really matters whether you call or not, I don't think it will change anything for good or bad.

This is a really depressing and unfeminist thing for me to say, but I've never had anything lasting with a guy that didn't pursue me first. Yes guys I've pursued have gone out with me on a couple of dates and maybe intermittedly called me, but nothing ever developed. Some I'm sure just went out with me because they assumed since I liked them enough to ask them out that I would probably sleep with them and then bailed when that wasn't the case. Several I've become friends with, but things have always just sort of petered out. I really like the idea taking a little more charge of my life and going after guys I'm interested in, but every time I've done that (and I've done it quite a bit) I've really only gotten to a first or second date, and then generally the nice rejection or they just drop off the face of the planet. It's only the guys that pursued me first that actually communicate regularly, do what they say they are going to do, and initiate us seeing each other. I wish it wasn't that way, and maybe it won't always be, but at least in my limited experience that's the way it is.

Good luck, I hope he calls and I would email/call later in the week just for your own sanity. I don't think you can ruin anything by calling a couple days after a date to say hi. Your friends are probably just being a little negative and assuming since he hasn't called he isn't going to, and want you to be the one more in the position of power by not calling. I never really care about saving face in this manner, some people consider it a big source of pride not to be the one desperate enough to call, but I don't think calling to say hi is desperate and I think it's all a bit silly to care who calls first. ymmv
posted by whoaali at 7:11 PM on June 15 [4 favorites has favorites]

I love my friends dearly and greatly enjoy them and all, but we're not the same people, which is something I like about them. We're also not cut out to date the same people... so just because their advice might be right for them, it might not be right for you.

You've said you'd like to call/contact him, just send, as others have said, a nice call/email/IM and see what happens. "I had a lot of fun the other night, wanna do x on y?" Easy peasy!
posted by cestmoi15 at 7:28 PM on June 15

In relationships, you should ask for what you want and/or need.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:29 PM on June 15 [4 favorites has favorites]

I came back into to say, "Shoutout to whoaali." I concur wholeheartedly with everything she says. Read her response carefully.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 7:49 PM on June 15

If the date was a hit, and I want another, I send an email when I get home, saying just that.

Just so she knows I'm not into games; I'm into her.

She invariably emails back, often that night, and the tone of the email reinforces the "we both really dug the date" vibe (sorry, not sure where the 70's "Love American Style" wording is coming from!). With that in hand for surety, I call the next day.

Fuck rules.
posted by IAmBroom at 8:24 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

This is a really depressing and unfeminist thing for me to say, but I've never had anything lasting with a guy that didn't pursue me first.

Different data point: my experience has been that the guys who enjoyed the chase the most turned out to be the lousiest boyfriends (i.e. it was more about the initial pursuit than actual interest in me as a person/partner).
posted by availablelight at 8:43 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

You and you are friends are acting like you are in high school. Jesus Christ, you're supposed to be adults.

Did you enjoy yourself? Want another date? Call him and ask. Maybe he'll say yes. Hooray! Maybe he'll say no. Booo! But at least you'll know one way or the other and, more than that, won't be acting like you're 15 years old.
posted by Justinian at 8:47 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

Redundant, unimportant part of my reply: call him, for all the reasons mentioned above. Men are all different, and our anecdotal experiences with the/my species cannot be used to predict what will happen in your circumstance. So just make it easier on yourself, and call him.

Slightly more important part of my reply: Please let us know when you have finally called him so that we can stop telling you to do so.
posted by nihraguk at 9:41 PM on June 15

IAmBroom, we have similar methods, and they work for me too. If the date is really awesome, sometimes I'm compelled to send text messages while I'm walking home, too.

Why play games when you can, you know, actually talk with each other like adults. Maybe have fun?
posted by darkshade at 9:46 PM on June 15

call me a whimp and tell me i'm in h.s. but i've had the exact same results as whoaali. i wish it wasn't true but it is, and that's why i'm so hesitant this time out. every time i've done the pursuing it's never worked out. when i've been pursued, it has. something i've understood intellectually for awhile, but am really now just trying to ingrain is that if i a guy really does like a girl, he'll call, or text, or email, or whatever. doesn't matter if he's shy or what, if he really liked her that much, he'll get to it. and in this case, he's not and also, it's not as if it wasn't obvious i had a good time with him.
posted by violetk at 10:24 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

i've had the exact same results as whoaali. i wish it wasn't true but it is, and that's why i'm so hesitant this time out. every time i've done the pursuing it's never worked out.

Looking over your posting history, violetk, I have a hunch that perhaps the problem was not with pursuing per se; it was that you may have done your pursuing in a way that was somehow needy or demanding -- qualities that do not tend to form the basis of happy, lasting connections.

The fact is, I have pursued and been pursued; I have had good and bad relationships come out of both. The common thread between the good and bad relationships was how I felt about myself -- not whether he called back first, or whether I waited 4 days and pretended to run into him at his favorite coffee-house, or any of the rest of that twaddle. Things went well, whether I was the pursuer or the pursuee, when I felt good about myself (e.g., confident, creative, smart, attractive, etc.) and thus inadvertantly sent a positive message about myself. Things went badly, whether I was the pursuer or the pursuee, when I felt bad about myself (incomplete, unconfident, unattractive, etc.), and thus inadvertantly sent a negative message about myself.

It was not siome Magic 8-Ball Answer to the question "omg should I call or not??" that made the difference. What made the difference was something much deeper and more essential.
posted by scody at 10:41 PM on June 15 [4 favorites has favorites]

hmm, erase that first "inadvertantly."
posted by scody at 10:42 PM on June 15

8 days.
posted by Happydaz at 10:46 PM on June 15

scody, i totally agree with you and that's why i took some some months off from dating last fall. i've been in a really good place with myself this past half year plus. i did feel that i was probably coming across as needy or demanding, and not putting the pressure on myself to meet people, or date, was great in that i really learned to enjoy all the changes my life has underwent in the last year, and i actually found myself with zero interest in dating at all. which i found really liberating, and also which was why i was a bit reluctant to throw my hat back into the ring and why i'm being pretty cautious now about repeating past mistakes. yes, i'm still neurotic about the process, but i feel…hmmm…i'm probably not going to articulate this well, but i'm recovering quicker from that neuroticism.

that said tho, and considering my past experiences, it still makes me hesitant to pursue.
posted by violetk at 10:58 PM on June 15

8 days.

ha! perfect!
posted by violetk at 10:59 PM on June 15

So wait- you were texting like crazy before you met up, and now you haven't even texted? Maybe he thinks you hate him.

i feel like, given that he and i made out pretty much the whole time i was at his place and i slept over (and by making out, i mean, we just kissed), it was pretty obvious i was interested in him.
posted by violetk at 11:08 PM on June 15

i feel like, given that he and i made out pretty much the whole time i was at his place and i slept over (and by making out, i mean, we just kissed), it was pretty obvious i was interested in him.

You realize, of course, that it's entirely possible that he's saying the exact same thing to someone over a beer right now, right? I mean, men aren't actually different species. They can have insecurities and fears, too. They fret. They second-guess themselves. They get shy. This is because they're more or less as human as you are. :)

If you wanted people to give you permission to wait, you've received that. If you wanted people to give you permission to act, you've received that, too. That means the decision is entirely up to you what you want to do, and I truly wish you luck either way. But whether you choose to call/email/text him or not, please understand that it doesn't say anything about some Universal Rule of How Guys Are and How Women Ought to Behave. There is no universal rule, and looking for one will drive you crazy without getting you any closer to a successful relationship.
posted by scody at 11:21 PM on June 15 [1 favorite has favorites]

You realize, of course, that it's entirely possible that he's saying the exact same thing to someone over a beer right now, right?

of course. and yes, of course, i don't think there are universal rules for behaviour and all that. i find the very idea to me that anyone follows something like a 3-day rule or don't sleep with someone on the first date or whatever ridiculous but that doesn't preclude the fact the fact that ppl still follow them, however unconsciously or unintentionally.

the other thing that i hadn't mentioned that cause me trepidation about this is that he's dating online. and you know how some services, you can tell when someone's been checking into their profile (without you, yourself, having to log into yours). yeah, i've noticed he has. so i have to wonder if it's the whole kid in the candy store thing happening.
posted by violetk at 11:36 PM on June 15

i feel like, given that he and i made out pretty much the whole time i was at his place and i slept over (and by making out, i mean, we just kissed), it was pretty obvious i was interested in him.

He might also be thinking "well, she slept over but she wouldn't go past kissing, it's pretty obvious she's not that interested in me."

The only things that are pretty much universally applicable, and will almost always help, are self-confidence and honesty.

So e-mail or text this guy with something to say to him (not just "hey, do you like me???"). Chances are not looking great, to be honest, but getting in touch can't hurt and there's a possibility it could work. If he doesn't reply, or replies with something you'd rather not hear, you have to get better about shrugging it off -- you have to invest more gradually instead of always immediately determining that this one is The One. Going on dates with other people (and plenty of them) will help with that, and with distracting you from things that don't work out. If you're sitting by the phone waiting for someone to call, you're doing it wrong; that's the time you have to live your life, which should be -- boyfriend or no -- as awesome as you can make it.
posted by booksandlibretti at 11:39 PM on June 15

He might also be thinking "well, she slept over but she wouldn't go past kissing, it's pretty obvious she's not that interested in me."

hunh? i really don't think that refusing to sleep with someone on the first date is a great indicator of interest/non-interest.
posted by violetk at 11:53 PM on June 15

Maybe not for you. For him, who knows?

I know a guy who wouldn't continue to see any girl who didn't sleep with him on the first date. Why? He wanted someone with intense chemistry who wasn't hung up on societal standards, who -- like you say -- finds the very idea of a "don't sleep with someone on the first date" rule ridiculous.

This guy I know changed his mind and stopped requiring that qualification (which I'm happy about), but who knows what headspace the guy you know is in? It should be obvious that you're not a mindreader -- you have no idea at all what he's thinking, whether he's disappointed or hurt or confused or uninterested. That was my point.
posted by booksandlibretti at 12:04 AM on June 16

Surprising to see so much angst towards your friends, and the assumptions that they're idiots (I'm guessing that, like you, they're not). I think maybe perhaps they have your best interest at heart and are giving you what they deem to be true based on their own experiences. Your friends may not be like other people's friends, but that's fine. We all roll in our own circles.

Anyway, I too am bucking the trend here with notjustfoxybrown and whoaali. When I was in the dating scene, if I liked a girl, and we had a good date (especially as good as yours seemed to go), I would call or text her in the next 2 or 3 days to see when we could do it again. That said, if work flared up, or I had to travel or something, sometimes I'd exceed that time-frame, but I'd at least try to shoot an email or something to the effect of "Hey, had a good time, busy here for a bit but what are you up to next weekend?" I'd definitely make contact again within the week, one way or another.

Honestly, if the girl called me before I got around to contacting her, my first thought (again, assuming I liked her and things went well) would be "Oh, hey, cool, she must have had a good time too," and things would just flow from there.

Otherwise, if they don't, you'll have your answer. So yeah - call, don't call, I don't think it matters much either way. Keep living your life and see if he presents himself as interested.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:28 AM on June 16

the other thing that i hadn't mentioned that cause me trepidation about this is that he's dating online. and you know how some services, you can tell when someone's been checking into their profile (without you, yourself, having to log into yours). yeah, i've noticed he has. so i have to wonder if it's the whole kid in the candy store thing happening.

Jesus, get off the internet and quit being dramatic about this. Just text him and start flirting and see where it goes. But please, for the love of god, quit turning this over in your head, with your friends, AskMe and then stalking him. What has that got you? Absolutely nothing but stress and you still don't know what he's thinking.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 AM on June 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

In my experience, when they're interested, you know. And if this guy is playing by some ridiculous set of rules, and abstaining from contact when what he really wants is to contact you, uhm, that would bug me.

Hang tight, kiddo, and let us know when you hear from him.
posted by agentwills at 6:18 AM on June 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Since you asked a general as well as a specific question ("but what are the rules?"), here's a general answer to go with my more specific one earlier:

Finding somebody to be with shouldn't be this much drama. I don't mean it's easy; I am currently quite single and tend to stay that way for long stretches. But the one, and I mean one, thing I've actually managed to figure out is that if you're stressing constantly and feeling filled with drama you're doing it wrong. Chill out. Call him if you're interested. The worst that can happen is he's not interested. And at least you'd know, instead of hanging out in this dramatic limbo. You can move on with your life one way or the other.

All of this constant overthinking and drama is not how it's supposed to work.
posted by Justinian at 6:28 AM on June 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

It doesn't have to be difficult, and if you bring your friends into your every dating move, it's a recipe for dissatisfaction because you'll be second-guessing yourself no matter what happens

This is an important point. The relationships that I didn't involve my friends in have been the most successful, because I was relying on my intuition and the vibes I was getting from the guy, rather than getting an earful of all the useless advice my friends have collected from magazines over the years which would make me self-conscious and concerned with trying to follow some Rule to figure out what to do next.

What does your GUT tell you?
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 6:53 AM on June 16

I lean toward notjustfoxybrown, whoaali and allkindsoftime here, and I don't think you are necessarily being too dramatic or over thinking. You've had certain experiences that haven't worked, so you are looking to change how you approach things.

I do think you can call him or email him once and it wouldn't be a big deal (it won't make him not like you if he does, it won't make him like you if he doesn't), but I think I've had the same experience about pursuing v. being pursued. It's unfortunate, definitely, but I think there is a different implication, at least in the circles I've run in, for a man not calling and a woman not calling--no guy I've known has thought a woman wasn't interested because she didn't call after a date.

Also, I think that any time I haven't heard from a guy within 2-3 days (usually less), he wasn't interested.

One other thing--none of these ridiculous trends or rules I've noticed and described (yes, I realize this is ridiculous, it's just what I've noticed) has carried over into any relationship I've witnessed. I've waited for a guy to call me, waited to see if he's interested and then been in a perfectly normal, equal relationship after that.
posted by Pax at 6:56 AM on June 16

Do you chat with him? I think that is a less pressured way to initiate conversation in the beginning of dating.

I think the dogmatic 'wait to be pursued' thing is kinda of fallacious. In the beginning of my relationship with my current bf I definitely was the more aggressive one. I asked him out, I initiated our first kiss. (My bf and I met through online dating too.) Later I learned that that is my bf's dating style, he figures that if a girl is really interested she'll make her interest know, which gives him a clear green light rather than having to deal with ambiguous signals. However that beginning did not lead to me putting all the effort into the relationship. We've been together for over two years and in that time the dynamic has reoriented to him being the more direct one in his affection: writing me love letters, having flowers for me when I come home from a trip, remembering things I mention offhand as gifts, etc.

That being said, I don't think it matters who calls. Especially in online dating where people might be dating more than one person at once. More important is re-evaluating after a few weeks and saying, is this working for me now? Honestly, my roommate has the same philosophy, only be pursued, and she tends to attract charming, smooth operator types who show strong interest in the short term, but not in the long term. I'm not saying, stay with someone who isn't interested in you, but sometimes strong interest takes a little while, a few dates to develop. If it's there immediately, it's probably more just sexually based, than rooted in compatible personalities, common values, etc. This has at least been my experience. I also think guys need a little bit of a pass, it's hard putting yourself out there and having the burden of expectation (and perhaps rejection) laid on your shoulders. I think being as open and direct as possible in dating is usually the best way to proceed. Any guy who has a problem with that honestly isn't worth your time.
posted by amileighs at 7:13 AM on June 16

To throw another anecdote into the pool, I'm a man. The last time I met a woman through an online dating site, we went for coffee on a Saturday. On Sunday, she emailed me suggesting dinner on Monday. I didn't run screaming OH NOES SHE HAZ RUINT THE CHASE, and we got married a little more than a year later and we're still giddily happy 5+ years on from that.
posted by Zed at 7:16 AM on June 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

hunh? i really don't think that refusing to sleep with someone on the first date is a great indicator of interest/non-interest.

You've already acknowledged that you feel a little adrift in this dating millieu and so I don't know if you're saying this merely to state your own opinions or to get a read from the peanut gallery. I agree, he shoudl know you're interested, but just like you have your own ideas of what is and isn't appropriate, I'm sure he has his. Dating involves, at some higher-level sense, not a nuts and bolts sense hopefully, some negotation of what both people think is normal or decent or accurate or right. It also shouldn't be this much work.

You've put yourself in a situation where if you don't call him [because your friends said not to] and it doesn't work out you're going to feel like you did something wrong. Or you'll feel that if you do call him [and your friends said they'd kill you, crappy friends] you've done something wrong. In the meantime here you are not calling him, or texting him, or doing anything to figure out if there's going to be more snuggly funtime with him in your future or not.

There's a sense in which we have our stated priorities and we have the priorities that are shown by our actions. While you say you'd really really like to see this guy again, you are not doing things to make that happen.
posted by jessamyn at 7:18 AM on June 16 [2 favorites has favorites]

everyone, as usual, has been really awesome, which is why i love coming here—so thanks once again. i definitely appreciate everyone's perspective. my instinct is always to call, especially because i thought it was such a successful date (which is why i am perplexed that he hasn't called—but yes, that ground has been trod above) but…i still don't know what i am going to do but i think at some point, it will strike me.
posted by violetk at 8:56 AM on June 16

For the love of God lady, just call him. Christ.

Also, don't take dating advice from your friends, who sound like dumbasses.
posted by chunking express at 8:58 AM on June 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, seriously. Call the dude. Holy shit sometimes reading these relationship threads is an exercise in frustration.
posted by chunking express at 8:59 AM on June 16

When faced with a situation in which action or inaction can be the wrong decision, I prefer to err on the side of action, if only to have had better control over my error.

I'm a guy, and it's been over 4 years since I was doing the asking-out-and-dating thing, but I'll tell you something, it's nerve-wracking to have to be the one expected to ask. I used to IM with people a bunch, and if the woman I went out on a date with suddenly didn't IM with me following the date, I'd be worried. Your lack of texts may be running counter to the message that the smooching did.

Send him a text, NOW, saying that you had fun on Thursday/Friday, and telling him to call you. That gives him the green light to call, and if he doesn't call, well then the ball is clearly in his court. It'd be a shame if the possible relationship never came to be because you both were waiting on the other to give some sort of signal. If it all turns out to work, neither of you will even remember the specifics of what happened. If it turns out tragically, it'll make a better story if something happened. Action is preferable to inaction.
posted by explosion at 9:12 AM on June 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

but i haven't exactly been too successful in getting past the first several dates—mainly bc i haven't given a shit about these stupid games.

This post hoc reasoning is what's causing you problems. Your past dating experiences didn't go the way you wanted them to, but why do you assume that it's because you violated some kind of rule about how soon to call? It seems far more likely that things didn't work out for some other reason, the true nature of which you probably won't and can't ever know. That's how dating goes, and it's kind of a bitch, but it's best to recognize it for what it is and soldier on. Looking back and attributing your results to some clear-cut rules-violation on your part may be comforting in some way, but it's probably not accurate or useful.
posted by ludwig_van at 9:49 AM on June 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

It's Tuesday. Stop mulling it over and take some action. Text him or email him and see if you get a reply. If you get a good one, your mind will be at ease. If you don't get one at all, then you'll also know and your mind will be at ease.

What exactly do you have to lose?
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:09 AM on June 16

hey, so for everyone who likes updates (like i do), here's mine:

yesterday, i ended up catching up with a friend of mine who is the same industry as my date and we, of course, ended up talking about this very thing. coincidentally, jimmy was looking for someone who does what my date does for a living (he was laid off last winter and now freelances) and asked if i'd mind getting his information. so it was the perfect, legitimate way to contact him. so i do, and get the info and there's some back and forth texting between us, still a bit playful if somewhat distracted. he apologizes for being a stranger and says he's been busy putting together a website of his work (which was difficult since he doesn't really do websites). so, legitimate in that, being unemployed, i'm sure he has a lot more pressing things on his mind than dating, but also a little lame in that it takes like a minute to text someone.

so last night while i lay awake in a not uncommon insomniac state, i really started thinking about how i wanted to approach—not just this particular person, but dating in general. and while i do still believe a lot of ppl, whether consciously or not, have this perception about "dating rules" i also agree with the majority here in that i'm not that person and i just can't operate that way and trying to do so (and following the advice of my friends) was driving me bat-shit insane. i'm a very direct person. it doesn't mean i'm all aggro about it, but i have a hard time pussy-footing around stuff when it would just be easier to be clear from the beginning.

anyway, i also thought about (the little) that i do know about him and what i sense and i just don't think he's the game-playing type either, or at the very least, would not be off-put by someone calling him up and asking him out. i also think he's not much of planner, and very much an off-the-cuff kind of person, which could be another reason why he hadn't contacted me. another thing i thought about was that since he's unemployed, his resources for taking someone out a lot might not be very available…not that any of this matters in the end.

the end result of this, is that i have decided to call him tomorrow about getting dinner (he mentioned before how he really loved thai and never got to go very often the ten years he was with his ex since she wasn't a big fan) and i had mentioned to him the best kept secret of a thai restaurant in town, my treat. if he's into it, awesome; if not, then i'll know for sure not to waste my time. not only do i find myself perfectly ready to accept either outcome (not that i don't think one is better than the other), but after making this decision, i found myself feeling ten thousand times better. i realized that i was getting tied up in knots and was soooo uncomfortable because i was trying to be something i wasn't (a game player/"rules" follower) and doing something i just find nearly impossible to do (not be direct). as i said above, scody was right in that, while i took this approach before, i did it in a much more needy and intensive way because i pressured myself so much about finding a relationship. now that i'd taken some time off from dating and don't feel that pressure, i think my approach, while still direct, will be more tempered and mellow. and if this guy isn't into it, then i'll just have to keep looking til i find someone who is. and yes, some of my friends still completely disagree with this (while others agree that i really do need to be true to who i am)—but then again, the one who's most opposed? she's still single too.

so thanks again everyone. :)
posted by violetk at 2:52 PM on June 17

"so, legitimate in that, being unemployed, i'm sure he has a lot more pressing things on his mind than dating,"

Uh , who's unemployed, your date or your friend?

Also, you might want to call him tonight, as he may have plans. Good luck!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:18 PM on June 17

my date is unemployed. well, my friend is too but is doing better, freelance-wise. he had a client who he felt could use the services of what my date does.
posted by violetk at 3:23 PM on June 17

OP, so much see myself in this dilemma-like question. The

So to set the record straight on "the rules". Originally they seem to not be meant to put a layer of etiquette on single women's lives and conduct. They allegedly aim to work in filtering out dates that are not good relationships material long-term.

Now, a man who communicated information that "he really loved thai and never got to go very often the ten years he was with his ex" during the first, no matter if prolonged date? For one, that is quite a negative statement about the ex. It also communicates that he was somewhat passive and was not getting what he likes on his own (yesterday's thread about relationships as zero-sum games has some echo on this). The dinner you are generously offering intends to undo the damage done by his ex during those 10 years on the second date? In the past, I willingly entered these competitions against exes, but it just does not look right any more. It's wrong, as the man praises the woman for being so much better than "those crazy exes". It is not really a compliment. It is some sort of linguistic programming to motivate you to try even harder.

He is not a planner, OK, legit enough, but can he be also on the other extreme of the spectrum, an extremely passive person? Is it linked to hows and whys of that previous relationship ending?

Take things extremely slow with this fella. Meanwhile, enjoy dating.
posted by Jurate at 1:52 AM on June 18