Is there a word for things that are beyond one's control or ken?

May 18, 2009 2:47 PM

Is there a word for things that are beyond one's control or ken?

I'm looking for a single noun (in any language) that means, roughly, "thing (or things) that is beyond one's comprehension/control".

posted by long to writing & language (21 comments total)

Transcendent.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:51 PM on May 18 [1 favorite has favorites]

(adj)
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:51 PM on May 18

Transcendence is the noun.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:53 PM on May 18

ineffable maybe altho I cannot resist pedanting [sic!] about comprehension/control because those are 2 very different things. its very possible to comprehend something you cannot control and maybe even the inverse...or things I cannot control == annoying!!!
posted by supermedusa at 2:53 PM on May 18

To supermedusa:

I was a bit unclear, so I should clarify: I'm not using comprehension and control synonymously. I'm asking for a word that means either "thing that is beyond one's comprehension" or "thing that is beyond one's control".
posted by long at 3:03 PM on May 18

I was going to say what supermedusa said: I can't think of any word that would connote both understanding and control. Which is the more important concept here? I agree that the suggestion of "ineffable" might fill the bill, but only if the idea of being related to "ken [ability to know]" is the one you most want to express. "Incomprehensible," "unfathomable," or "inscrutable" might also be good fits.

If the idea "beyond control" is more important, then you might go with "unforeseeable," "unpredictable," "unavoidable," "chaotic," "beyond reach," "beyond ability," or something like that.
posted by Miko at 3:06 PM on May 18 [1 favorite has favorites]

To weapons-grade-plutonium:

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed. I figured some philosopher would have appropriated a common term for this meaning. I looked up transcendent, and it's a term that Kant used to describe things beyond the limit of experience. Thanks again!
posted by long at 3:07 PM on May 18

I'm asking for a word that means either "thing that is beyond one's comprehension" or "thing that is beyond one's control".

Are you sure this word exists, having heard it before, or are you more hoping there is a word that means both?
posted by Miko at 3:07 PM on May 18

I'd still be careful -- "transcendent" doesn't necessarily mean "beyond understanding," more just "beyond ability to express in common terms" and "beyond ordinary experience."
posted by Miko at 3:09 PM on May 18 [1 favorite has favorites]

The word is numinous. According to Otto the numinous experience has two aspects: mysterium tremendum, which is the tendency to invoke fear and trembling; and mysterium fascinas, the tendency to attract, fascinate and compel.
posted by RussHy at 3:20 PM on May 18

Are we making this to complicated: incomprehensible, uncontrollable. I would also be careful of transcendent--it depends quite heavily on the context in which it is used
posted by rmhsinc at 3:22 PM on May 18

One word that can be used for both--sorry. It does follow. doesn't it, that if an experience/phenomenon is incomprehensible it is uncontrollable.
posted by rmhsinc at 3:25 PM on May 18

Kantians might say "noumenal."
posted by kestrel251 at 3:33 PM on May 18

Numinous is one of my favorite words, but it does connote religious feeling - a numinous experience is an experience felt as an encounter with the divine. It works only if you intend that spiritual connotation.
posted by Miko at 3:34 PM on May 18

It does follow. doesn't it, that if an experience/phenomenon is incomprehensible it is uncontrollable.

I know a lot of musicians who would disagree with that.
posted by flabdablet at 6:16 PM on May 18

To Miko:

Thanks for the link. I suppose I should have given a lot more context for the intended meaning. The meaning I was struggling to articulate is basically Kant's notion of the transcendental, which I now know, thanks to your Wikipedia link.
posted by long at 7:24 PM on May 18

I know a lot of musicians who would disagree with that: I am not sure to what you are referring, regardless, that does not mean they are correct. I am more than willing to be persuaded but I do not understand how an incomprehensible phenomenon/experience can be controlled--the notion of control suggests a rational order of some sort--the ability to choose, manipulate, predict etc. Even if we do not understand a phenomena but can predict or manage it, then by definition it takes on elements of being comprehensible ( I think ).
posted by rmhsinc at 7:44 PM on May 18

the notion of control suggests a rational order of some sort--the ability to choose, manipulate, predict etc.

Choosing, manipulating and predicting are all forms of thought, and as any musician who has found their way into an ineffable and transcendent groove will tell you, thought has no place there - thought is too slow.

And yet, using a musical instrument with skill is all about control.

Naturally, this will all come over as handwavey airy fairy new-age nonsense to most people. But I'm tipping that there will be more than one musician who reads this and says "yeah, I know what he's on about".
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 PM on May 18 [1 favorite has favorites]

The noun form of "things outside of our direct sensation/control" in Kant's metaphysics is a Noumena.

Plato called them Forms or Ideas: εἶδος (eidos) and ἰδέα (idea).
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:58 PM on May 18

The noun form of "things outside of our direct sensation/control" is "real life".
posted by Cardinal Fang! at 1:11 AM on May 19

I would use the word 'bailiwick'.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/wotd/bailiwick

Definition: Originally, this word meant the jurisdiction of a bailiff; now it refers to one's proper sphere of influence or knowledge.

posted by jack.tinker at 9:18 PM on May 22