What to do about friends jealous partners?
May 11, 2009 11:11 PM Subscribe
What to do about friends jealous partners? I'm gay and the partners of my female friends boyfriends are really threatened by me, it is causing tension in our friendships.
I'm openly gay, but reasonably "straight acting" - to the extent that nobody ever guesses it anyway. I have a group of 3 really close female friends, who all live in the same house and who I spend most of my social time with. We drink together and sometimes smoke weed together with our large group of mutual friends, and watch movies, and whatever else groups of college friends generally do.
The problem is that all of their boyfriends hate my guts. They hate that I spend so much time with their girlfriends, that their girlfriends rave about how great I am/how much fun I am, and they say that I am just pretending to be gay because I want to get in their pants - "people change" according to them. This really annoys me because they puport to be liberal and tolerant about everything and go to university (though I know this means nothing) yet still hold such backwards beliefs.
I have recently found out that all 3 boyfriends have been hanging out together where they didn't really before, bonding over a shared hatred of yours truly - the consensus is that I am rude, loud, and a bad influence...things nobody has ever said about me before. Part of the reason that they don't like me also I suspect is they are shamelessly pretentious hipsters, and the girlfriends are hipsterish I guess in their dress sense but they aren't pretentious at all...and I just try and avoid all of that, so I guess in their eyes I am "uncool" and not worth their time.
Two of said friends have ended their relationships recently, and I cannot help but feel I was a contributing factor, because of the fact that I came up in their break up talks, and often my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends - their words not mine.
The boyfriends are always welcome to socialise with us but always choose not to because they don't like our idea of fun. From the outset I always went out of my way to be friendly towards them, but eventually gave up even bothering because of their unrelenting rudeness towards me.
I have not had this problem with any other female friends boyfriends, they don't usually see me as a threat and I become friends with them too - in a way they just see me as one of the girls I guess, I just don't register as a threat.
On top of this one of the boyfriends said to one of my friends who has been dumped (they were not in a relationship together, but both part of this group) that the reason guys weren't showing an interest in her was that amongst other things she was friends with me.
I am feeling very conflicted about this - on the one hand I am worried our friendship may be unhealthy and that somehow by hanging out with them I am destining them to be single "fag-hags" for ever, and this almost makes me want to distance myself from them to avoid this...but on the other hand I have never had this problem with the boyfriends of close female friends before, so part of me just wants to ignore it and stop feeling like it is my fault.
This is causing me a reasonable amount of stress, as they are my main social outlet outside of law school so I rely on them a lot for my general sanity...and I guess any input from you guys would be appreciated. Should I just soldier on as is, or do you think I am in the wrong too?
I'm openly gay, but reasonably "straight acting" - to the extent that nobody ever guesses it anyway. I have a group of 3 really close female friends, who all live in the same house and who I spend most of my social time with. We drink together and sometimes smoke weed together with our large group of mutual friends, and watch movies, and whatever else groups of college friends generally do.
The problem is that all of their boyfriends hate my guts. They hate that I spend so much time with their girlfriends, that their girlfriends rave about how great I am/how much fun I am, and they say that I am just pretending to be gay because I want to get in their pants - "people change" according to them. This really annoys me because they puport to be liberal and tolerant about everything and go to university (though I know this means nothing) yet still hold such backwards beliefs.
I have recently found out that all 3 boyfriends have been hanging out together where they didn't really before, bonding over a shared hatred of yours truly - the consensus is that I am rude, loud, and a bad influence...things nobody has ever said about me before. Part of the reason that they don't like me also I suspect is they are shamelessly pretentious hipsters, and the girlfriends are hipsterish I guess in their dress sense but they aren't pretentious at all...and I just try and avoid all of that, so I guess in their eyes I am "uncool" and not worth their time.
Two of said friends have ended their relationships recently, and I cannot help but feel I was a contributing factor, because of the fact that I came up in their break up talks, and often my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends - their words not mine.
The boyfriends are always welcome to socialise with us but always choose not to because they don't like our idea of fun. From the outset I always went out of my way to be friendly towards them, but eventually gave up even bothering because of their unrelenting rudeness towards me.
I have not had this problem with any other female friends boyfriends, they don't usually see me as a threat and I become friends with them too - in a way they just see me as one of the girls I guess, I just don't register as a threat.
On top of this one of the boyfriends said to one of my friends who has been dumped (they were not in a relationship together, but both part of this group) that the reason guys weren't showing an interest in her was that amongst other things she was friends with me.
I am feeling very conflicted about this - on the one hand I am worried our friendship may be unhealthy and that somehow by hanging out with them I am destining them to be single "fag-hags" for ever, and this almost makes me want to distance myself from them to avoid this...but on the other hand I have never had this problem with the boyfriends of close female friends before, so part of me just wants to ignore it and stop feeling like it is my fault.
This is causing me a reasonable amount of stress, as they are my main social outlet outside of law school so I rely on them a lot for my general sanity...and I guess any input from you guys would be appreciated. Should I just soldier on as is, or do you think I am in the wrong too?
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request. -- jessamyn
Response by poster: Yeah, I have attempted to befriend them - on many occasions. When I try and talk to them about things or include them in conversation I am generally meeted with sneers and grunts. So now I do basically ignore them but that is only because of their past behaviour...when a friend has a new partner my general rule of thumb is to make the partner my new friend as well...it is a great way to make new friends for one, and makes socialising a lot easier
posted by sartre08 at 11:27 PM on May 11, 2009
posted by sartre08 at 11:27 PM on May 11, 2009
I'd start congratulating yourself on being a way for your female friends to discover that their boyfriends are boring, rude, pretentious assholes. Then go ahead and ignore it.
posted by jacalata at 11:28 PM on May 11, 2009 [27 favorites]
posted by jacalata at 11:28 PM on May 11, 2009 [27 favorites]
On the face of it, I'd agree that they are the problem, and not you. But I ask, in relation to this;
"When I try and talk to them about things or include them in conversation I am generally meeted with sneers and grunts."
What do you talk to them about, or what conversations are you including them in? If you're talking about things they aren't interested in, you're pretty much only paying lip service towards including them in the conversation.
But if you're including them in conversations about stuff you know they have an interest in, and they still act like jerks, then the simple fact of the matter is they're jerks. Nothing you can do about that, I'm afraid.
posted by Effigy2000 at 11:36 PM on May 11, 2009
"When I try and talk to them about things or include them in conversation I am generally meeted with sneers and grunts."
What do you talk to them about, or what conversations are you including them in? If you're talking about things they aren't interested in, you're pretty much only paying lip service towards including them in the conversation.
But if you're including them in conversations about stuff you know they have an interest in, and they still act like jerks, then the simple fact of the matter is they're jerks. Nothing you can do about that, I'm afraid.
posted by Effigy2000 at 11:36 PM on May 11, 2009
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies."
-- Doctor Who
On the one hand, you could just ignore it and be well justified in doing so. It's not your problem, and these boys are being immature and selfish jerks. It's up to the girls to decide if they want to spend time with you, or their boyfriends, or both. Your friendship with them is extremely unlikely to be unhealthy, from the sounds of it - the fact that you actually care about them speaks to that. The fact that you were brought up in breakup speeches seems to indicate that at least once, the "him or me" choice was given, and she chose you. They're probably just using these boys for sex and social status (which isn't ideal, but it's their decision to make).
On the other hand, if the boyfriend is a person who your friend really does care about and like, it does behoove you as her friend to make an effort to get to know him (and him to get to know you). Try making a plan to go out as a foursome, with the girl with the least obnoxious boyfriend, and a date of your own.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:39 PM on May 11, 2009
-- Doctor Who
On the one hand, you could just ignore it and be well justified in doing so. It's not your problem, and these boys are being immature and selfish jerks. It's up to the girls to decide if they want to spend time with you, or their boyfriends, or both. Your friendship with them is extremely unlikely to be unhealthy, from the sounds of it - the fact that you actually care about them speaks to that. The fact that you were brought up in breakup speeches seems to indicate that at least once, the "him or me" choice was given, and she chose you. They're probably just using these boys for sex and social status (which isn't ideal, but it's their decision to make).
On the other hand, if the boyfriend is a person who your friend really does care about and like, it does behoove you as her friend to make an effort to get to know him (and him to get to know you). Try making a plan to go out as a foursome, with the girl with the least obnoxious boyfriend, and a date of your own.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:39 PM on May 11, 2009
It sounds like you're being more than reasonable here. In fact, you sound like a pretty decent sort.
You need to tell your girlfriends that they should ...
- remind boyfriends of how gay you are, using the power of anecdote.
- Tell them to never, ever compare you to boyfriends in front of said boyfriends.
- stop dating hipster wankers. That stuff is T.O.X.I.C.
posted by seanyboy at 11:39 PM on May 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
You need to tell your girlfriends that they should ...
- remind boyfriends of how gay you are, using the power of anecdote.
- Tell them to never, ever compare you to boyfriends in front of said boyfriends.
- stop dating hipster wankers. That stuff is T.O.X.I.C.
posted by seanyboy at 11:39 PM on May 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yeah, I do try and talk to them about what I think they are interested in...their studies etc so that is not an issue.
I must also add, because this may change the tone of some peoples answers...me and the female friends are generally a lot closer than normal straight guy girl friendships are, we will stay over in each others beds when we have been hanging out and can't be bothered going home (of course only when the bfs are not there), don't have problems doing things like seeing each other in our underwear or whatever, and they confide in me about a lot of stuff including relationship problems which the boyfriends HATE...also we have all gone skinny dipping together at the beach at night time...but the way I see it, all of my female friends do this with their fellow females friends and they know I am gay so they aren't going to try anything...nothing in the way that I act gives the indication that I am not sure about my sexually and looking to experiment, so it is strictly platonic when we do things like this
posted by sartre08 at 11:44 PM on May 11, 2009
I must also add, because this may change the tone of some peoples answers...me and the female friends are generally a lot closer than normal straight guy girl friendships are, we will stay over in each others beds when we have been hanging out and can't be bothered going home (of course only when the bfs are not there), don't have problems doing things like seeing each other in our underwear or whatever, and they confide in me about a lot of stuff including relationship problems which the boyfriends HATE...also we have all gone skinny dipping together at the beach at night time...but the way I see it, all of my female friends do this with their fellow females friends and they know I am gay so they aren't going to try anything...nothing in the way that I act gives the indication that I am not sure about my sexually and looking to experiment, so it is strictly platonic when we do things like this
posted by sartre08 at 11:44 PM on May 11, 2009
Best answer: I'm sorry, but this reads as one of those "My penis is so big that it's uncomfortable to ride a bicycle. What other problems will my big penis and I encounter?" questions. Seriously-- listen to yourself. You're basically saying "I am so awesome that straight relationships break up over me and I'm not even straight." You come across in this question as someone who is really wrapped up in how awesome (some) other people think you are. Try to understand that it's not only possible but probable that for every person who thinks you're awesome, there may be another who doesn't think so, and that they may negatively react to the fact that you are apparently really wrapped up in how awesome (some) people think you are. This seems likely to have a lot less to do with the fact that you're gay than it does with the fact that other people do not necessarily perceive us as we'd like them to, or as we perceive ourselves.
posted by dersins at 11:50 PM on May 11, 2009 [22 favorites]
posted by dersins at 11:50 PM on May 11, 2009 [22 favorites]
my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends - their words not mine. ... my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends ... we will stay over in each others beds ... we have all gone skinny dipping together at the beach at night timeGosh, I can't imagine why they don't like you. My wife has guy friends both gay and straight and I like most of them, but I would object to any of them spending the night in her bed or engaging in nude leisure activities with them, no matter how confident they are in their preference for same sex romance. I would suggest that you either decide you don't care what their boyfriends think or consider dropping the sleepovers.
posted by Lame_username at 11:57 PM on May 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
I can see how many a boyfriend might be uncomfortable by your closeness to their girlfriends. Even the most liberal, tolerant, what-have-you male might be a little weirded out when his girlfriend is crashing in a bed with another guy and comfortable in her underwear around him because, no matter how sure they are that you're gay, there's an irrational part of their brains that says, "This is a man, and he is with my girlfriend."
BUT! Your friends' boyfriends are reacting to their very human feelings in incredibly dickish ways. The boyfriends and the girlfriends should talk to each other about this and not take it out on you.
And just because a boyfriend feels that sometimes unavoidable jealousy doesn't mean he can't move past it and take the time to understand what's actually going on. Your relationship with your friends is clearly very important to these women. They just need to find men who are accepting of this and able to move past their more irrational instincts. It's absolutely possible, and the onus is not on you to fix their relationship problems.
posted by katillathehun at 11:58 PM on May 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
BUT! Your friends' boyfriends are reacting to their very human feelings in incredibly dickish ways. The boyfriends and the girlfriends should talk to each other about this and not take it out on you.
And just because a boyfriend feels that sometimes unavoidable jealousy doesn't mean he can't move past it and take the time to understand what's actually going on. Your relationship with your friends is clearly very important to these women. They just need to find men who are accepting of this and able to move past their more irrational instincts. It's absolutely possible, and the onus is not on you to fix their relationship problems.
posted by katillathehun at 11:58 PM on May 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: OK. I have considered dropping the sleepovers etc because I guess I can understand them being pissed off about that part even though me and my friends see it as strictly platonic stupid fun...or with the sleepovers it is just a matter of convenience, i.e. not being able to afford taxis. but maybe the floor would be a better option haha.
And to Dersins: yeah, that is a fair point. I definitely don't think I am awesome but their girlfriends are quite vocal about how they do. And I guess we were just confused about the fact that the SOs liked them but could not stand me, somebody who they were so close to. I think you may be right about it not being so much about the gay thing...maybe it is about the fact that to the boyfriends I represent all of the things they don't share in common with their boyfriends (smoking pot, drinking to excess etc etc) because that is partly what our friendships are based on - a shared love of these things that their boyfriends cannot stand.
posted by sartre08 at 12:06 AM on May 12, 2009
And to Dersins: yeah, that is a fair point. I definitely don't think I am awesome but their girlfriends are quite vocal about how they do. And I guess we were just confused about the fact that the SOs liked them but could not stand me, somebody who they were so close to. I think you may be right about it not being so much about the gay thing...maybe it is about the fact that to the boyfriends I represent all of the things they don't share in common with their boyfriends (smoking pot, drinking to excess etc etc) because that is partly what our friendships are based on - a shared love of these things that their boyfriends cannot stand.
posted by sartre08 at 12:06 AM on May 12, 2009
Speaking as someone who has been in the position of your friends', my general rule is that my gay best friend should be treated the same as any other friend by the person I am seeing. Yes, we sleep in the same bed, we are extremely uninhibited around each other, and we talk about our sexual/personal lives openly. I'm very upfront with potential boyfriends about the nature of my relationship with him. So most of the guys I have dated try harder to win his approval than my female friends.
The fact that you were mentioned in the break up talk just means that these guys are threatened by you, and there is nothing you can do about it. Your friends will eventually meet guys who are secure enough with themselves and their relationships that they don't feel threatened by your friendship with their girlfriends. Until then, enjoy hanging out with your friends and don't worry about the idiots they have chosen to date.
posted by xyla2000 at 12:12 AM on May 12, 2009
The fact that you were mentioned in the break up talk just means that these guys are threatened by you, and there is nothing you can do about it. Your friends will eventually meet guys who are secure enough with themselves and their relationships that they don't feel threatened by your friendship with their girlfriends. Until then, enjoy hanging out with your friends and don't worry about the idiots they have chosen to date.
posted by xyla2000 at 12:12 AM on May 12, 2009
Best answer: also we have all gone skinny dipping together at the beach at night time...but the way I see it, all of my female friends do this with their fellow females friends and they know I am gay so they aren't going to try anything...
You know you're gay, but why do you assume that these other guys who you admit you don't know very well should know you're gay? You've told them you're gay... But you're also sleeping in their girlfriends' beds, seeing them in their undies, and skinny dipping with them. And even if you don't have sexual interest in them, you still have emotional interests in these women, right? They are important to you and you have an emotional connection with them, don't you? That is a form of intimacy between you and these women, and it's probably a form of intimacy these boyfriends see as a bit threatening.
If my boyfriend came home one morning and said, "Last night I went to the beach and got naked with my friend, Suzie, and we went swimming together (naked, remember?), but it's totally cool because she's a lesbian!" I wouldn't really be comfortable with that. If I don't know Suzie, then I don't have reason to feel comfortable about her. What's her deal with wanting to be naked with my boyfriend?
What if I do know Suzie? What if Suzie were as close of a friend to me as she is to my boyfriend? That's a different story -- there actually is a woman my boyfriend and I are equally close to, and with whom he has had sleepovers. I know her. I know what motivates her, I understand the type of friendship she has with my boyfriend, and I know the difference between the type of emotional connection he has with her (a platonic friend) and the type of emotional connection he has with me (his romantic partner). So, it is something that I'm comfortable with. She's not even a lesbian, and it's perfectly clear to me that their fun together is fully platonic.
You can't try to make this an issue of "I'm gay, so you must trust me." It is, instead, an issue with how well your friends' boyfriends know and understand you. It's quite obvious you don't really respect them, and they don't respect you -- so why should they respect the friendships you have with their girlfriends?
Now, with that said, they do sound like annoying jerks, and there is a whole dang lot THEY could be doing to improve things. But I'm just trying to present what might possibly be worth considering from your point of view.
posted by Ms. Saint at 12:18 AM on May 12, 2009 [7 favorites]
You know you're gay, but why do you assume that these other guys who you admit you don't know very well should know you're gay? You've told them you're gay... But you're also sleeping in their girlfriends' beds, seeing them in their undies, and skinny dipping with them. And even if you don't have sexual interest in them, you still have emotional interests in these women, right? They are important to you and you have an emotional connection with them, don't you? That is a form of intimacy between you and these women, and it's probably a form of intimacy these boyfriends see as a bit threatening.
If my boyfriend came home one morning and said, "Last night I went to the beach and got naked with my friend, Suzie, and we went swimming together (naked, remember?), but it's totally cool because she's a lesbian!" I wouldn't really be comfortable with that. If I don't know Suzie, then I don't have reason to feel comfortable about her. What's her deal with wanting to be naked with my boyfriend?
What if I do know Suzie? What if Suzie were as close of a friend to me as she is to my boyfriend? That's a different story -- there actually is a woman my boyfriend and I are equally close to, and with whom he has had sleepovers. I know her. I know what motivates her, I understand the type of friendship she has with my boyfriend, and I know the difference between the type of emotional connection he has with her (a platonic friend) and the type of emotional connection he has with me (his romantic partner). So, it is something that I'm comfortable with. She's not even a lesbian, and it's perfectly clear to me that their fun together is fully platonic.
You can't try to make this an issue of "I'm gay, so you must trust me." It is, instead, an issue with how well your friends' boyfriends know and understand you. It's quite obvious you don't really respect them, and they don't respect you -- so why should they respect the friendships you have with their girlfriends?
Now, with that said, they do sound like annoying jerks, and there is a whole dang lot THEY could be doing to improve things. But I'm just trying to present what might possibly be worth considering from your point of view.
posted by Ms. Saint at 12:18 AM on May 12, 2009 [7 favorites]
and they confide in me about a lot of stuff including relationship problems which the boyfriends HATE
This is the one thing I can kind of understand making the guys uncomfortable, but more from a privacy standpoint - but then, I tend to feel that there are details of my relationships that are private, and don't like the idea of them being discussed with anyone but me.
They may feel additionally threatened because they don't really understand that homosexuality isn't something one can turn on and off at will. So while it's no big deal for you to skinny dip with your girls, or chill in your undies, they don't seem to get that those are not sexual activities for you. Even if they do understand that, they may have a primal gut reaction to the presence of another male having a close relationship with THEIR women.
Ideally, your girls will find themselves some kickass fellas who know what's up - unfortunately, that kind of guy can be kind of hard to find. I've had exes who flew into jealous rages about my gay male friends, who said many of the similar things that you have had said about you and probably worse. They were assholes. But eventually, I got lucky, and found someone who does understand - he's a keeper.
posted by louche mustachio at 12:22 AM on May 12, 2009
This is the one thing I can kind of understand making the guys uncomfortable, but more from a privacy standpoint - but then, I tend to feel that there are details of my relationships that are private, and don't like the idea of them being discussed with anyone but me.
They may feel additionally threatened because they don't really understand that homosexuality isn't something one can turn on and off at will. So while it's no big deal for you to skinny dip with your girls, or chill in your undies, they don't seem to get that those are not sexual activities for you. Even if they do understand that, they may have a primal gut reaction to the presence of another male having a close relationship with THEIR women.
Ideally, your girls will find themselves some kickass fellas who know what's up - unfortunately, that kind of guy can be kind of hard to find. I've had exes who flew into jealous rages about my gay male friends, who said many of the similar things that you have had said about you and probably worse. They were assholes. But eventually, I got lucky, and found someone who does understand - he's a keeper.
posted by louche mustachio at 12:22 AM on May 12, 2009
"The consensus is that I am rude, loud, and a bad influence"
...
"I represent all of the things they don't share in common with their boyfriends (smoking pot, drinking to excess etc etc)"
Maybe they're correct? Gay, straight or what have you, people who are just constantly out getting hammered can be really annoying and yes BORING. The guys are acting like dicks, but it's still very possible that you are legitimately irritating.
posted by hamsterdam at 12:27 AM on May 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
...
"I represent all of the things they don't share in common with their boyfriends (smoking pot, drinking to excess etc etc)"
Maybe they're correct? Gay, straight or what have you, people who are just constantly out getting hammered can be really annoying and yes BORING. The guys are acting like dicks, but it's still very possible that you are legitimately irritating.
posted by hamsterdam at 12:27 AM on May 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
maybe it is about the fact that to the boyfriends I represent all of the things they don't share in common with their boyfriends (smoking pot, drinking to excess etc etc) because that is partly what our friendships are based on - a shared love of these things that their boyfriends cannot stand.
One possible route:
Earlier you mentioned that these boyfriends are pretentious and think you are a bad influence, and these girls are not pretentious. Is thinking that drinking to excess is a bad thing a major part of their perceived pretentiousness?
If you are dating somebody that drinks or parties a bit too much for your liking and often without you, you tend to dislike those friends that keep dragging her/him to boozing.
In a popular culture there is an often perceived pattern of behavior where guys spend too much drinking with their friends and where their girlfriends are displeased and would like them to spend time with them or in some more productive or cultured fashion. Or gf:s just don't like them smelly, drunk and in hangover. And the guys think that their gf:s are pretentious and not understanding their real selves. Only things that have changed here are genders of actors. And your role is to be a catalyst to this pattern, the drinking buddy, a bad influence.
posted by Free word order! at 12:54 AM on May 12, 2009
One possible route:
Earlier you mentioned that these boyfriends are pretentious and think you are a bad influence, and these girls are not pretentious. Is thinking that drinking to excess is a bad thing a major part of their perceived pretentiousness?
If you are dating somebody that drinks or parties a bit too much for your liking and often without you, you tend to dislike those friends that keep dragging her/him to boozing.
In a popular culture there is an often perceived pattern of behavior where guys spend too much drinking with their friends and where their girlfriends are displeased and would like them to spend time with them or in some more productive or cultured fashion. Or gf:s just don't like them smelly, drunk and in hangover. And the guys think that their gf:s are pretentious and not understanding their real selves. Only things that have changed here are genders of actors. And your role is to be a catalyst to this pattern, the drinking buddy, a bad influence.
posted by Free word order! at 12:54 AM on May 12, 2009
Frankly, your lady friends sound like drama queens who are exploiting the tension between you and their boyfriends as an easy way to cause drama or score points in arguments. They rave about you to their boyfriends? Well, they should stop doing so - duh! Are they so clueless that they can't see this?
When did the idea that sexual identity is fluid and almost nobody is 100 per cent straight or gay become old-fashioned? These guys have no way of knowing that you aren't a teensy bit bi-curious - who knows what 'experiments' could happen, especially since you and the girls are regularly off your faces on drugs and alcohol? Asking you and these women to refrain from sleeping in each other's beds doesn't seem so unreasonable.
And to echo one or two other posters - if you're encouraging these women to take illicit drugs and drink to excess, you are a bad influence.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 12:58 AM on May 12, 2009 [8 favorites]
When did the idea that sexual identity is fluid and almost nobody is 100 per cent straight or gay become old-fashioned? These guys have no way of knowing that you aren't a teensy bit bi-curious - who knows what 'experiments' could happen, especially since you and the girls are regularly off your faces on drugs and alcohol? Asking you and these women to refrain from sleeping in each other's beds doesn't seem so unreasonable.
And to echo one or two other posters - if you're encouraging these women to take illicit drugs and drink to excess, you are a bad influence.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 12:58 AM on May 12, 2009 [8 favorites]
1. OK, we'll assume you are not turned on at all by women's bodies. But your housemates are turned on by men's bodies, presumably, because they have boyfriends. And there you are, a naked (or semi-naked) man, skinny dipping with them, sharing their beds, strolling around the house. In addition to being Mr Wonderful emotionally (see 2), are you also flaunting your body to appreciative women? And you don't want their boyfriends to feel bad about this just because you don't intend to have sex with the girlfriends?
2. Sexual infidelity is one form of infidelity. Another form is emotional infidelity. Maybe that's how these guys feel (even if they wouldn't articulate it as such), that their girlfriends and you are cheating emotionally, that you are enjoying an emotional intimacy that the womenfolk should reserve for the boyfriends. Maybe?
3. "The boyfriends are always welcome to socialise with us but always choose not to because they don't like our idea of fun." Or just don't like you. But you're there, they can't get rid of you, so they end up not going somewhere with their girlfriends.
4. "the consensus is that I am rude, loud, and a bad influence...things nobody has ever said about me before." But maybe things other people have thought about you before and just never been angry enough to express.
And so on. Try to see yourself as the boyfriends see you.
posted by pracowity at 1:00 AM on May 12, 2009 [6 favorites]
2. Sexual infidelity is one form of infidelity. Another form is emotional infidelity. Maybe that's how these guys feel (even if they wouldn't articulate it as such), that their girlfriends and you are cheating emotionally, that you are enjoying an emotional intimacy that the womenfolk should reserve for the boyfriends. Maybe?
3. "The boyfriends are always welcome to socialise with us but always choose not to because they don't like our idea of fun." Or just don't like you. But you're there, they can't get rid of you, so they end up not going somewhere with their girlfriends.
4. "the consensus is that I am rude, loud, and a bad influence...things nobody has ever said about me before." But maybe things other people have thought about you before and just never been angry enough to express.
And so on. Try to see yourself as the boyfriends see you.
posted by pracowity at 1:00 AM on May 12, 2009 [6 favorites]
I have to say, I'm a very liberal man..but the thought of another guy I don't know [gay or not] sleeping in the same bed with my girlfriend just hits me in it gut, instinctual manner. Some wouldn't care, some would..but I'm wired towards the latter. It almost seems like you might be getting a lot of the intimacy that should be directed towards them. I would vote for this being an issue of insecurity or being threatened, and not all guys handle those situations well.
I have a quick question..[and this one comes from experience] what is the ratio to time they see their girlfriends alone or without you to the time that you are around?
posted by mattsweaters at 1:10 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have a quick question..[and this one comes from experience] what is the ratio to time they see their girlfriends alone or without you to the time that you are around?
posted by mattsweaters at 1:10 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @mattsweaters - I see them about once or twice a week - at uni for lunch occasionally, maybe one night of the week we will watch dvds or drink/get high. Where as they spend probably every other night of the week with their boyfriends.
There are lots of fair points being made here...I think I will have to talk to my friends about how intimate we are and I guess why some of that could legitimately piss their boyfriends off. Had not really thought about emotional infidelity before. I would not say I parade myself in front of them or anything...or go out of my way to be in situations where we are not completely clothed, but I do see how when they do happen that could legitimately piss the bfs off, even if I am gay. I can see how I was wrong in boiling the issue down to the fact that I am gay...
The bad influence thing would be an issue I guess if I was a bad influence but I just don't think I am - whenever we drink or smoke pot etc it is 99% of the time at their suggestion, not mine. It is just that I am likely to take up the offer, where the boyfriends aren't...yet the boyfriends refuse to believe that the gfs are anything other than impressionable victims who I lead astray - rather than thinking that you know, maybe their gfs like to go out and get hammered sometimes. as do many people. So maybe that is the core issue here? I'm not sure, we aren't that crazy...except for the occasional time like the aforementioned skinny dipping episode which involved way too much tequila.
At posters who have been in the perspective of my friends and expressed sympathy, thank you, I guess the answer is to carry on as per usual and hope they find boyfriends who are less freaked out by my presence and a bit more relaxed about drinking etc...but at the same time scale back some of the more intimate aspects of our friendships
posted by sartre08 at 1:19 AM on May 12, 2009
There are lots of fair points being made here...I think I will have to talk to my friends about how intimate we are and I guess why some of that could legitimately piss their boyfriends off. Had not really thought about emotional infidelity before. I would not say I parade myself in front of them or anything...or go out of my way to be in situations where we are not completely clothed, but I do see how when they do happen that could legitimately piss the bfs off, even if I am gay. I can see how I was wrong in boiling the issue down to the fact that I am gay...
The bad influence thing would be an issue I guess if I was a bad influence but I just don't think I am - whenever we drink or smoke pot etc it is 99% of the time at their suggestion, not mine. It is just that I am likely to take up the offer, where the boyfriends aren't...yet the boyfriends refuse to believe that the gfs are anything other than impressionable victims who I lead astray - rather than thinking that you know, maybe their gfs like to go out and get hammered sometimes. as do many people. So maybe that is the core issue here? I'm not sure, we aren't that crazy...except for the occasional time like the aforementioned skinny dipping episode which involved way too much tequila.
At posters who have been in the perspective of my friends and expressed sympathy, thank you, I guess the answer is to carry on as per usual and hope they find boyfriends who are less freaked out by my presence and a bit more relaxed about drinking etc...but at the same time scale back some of the more intimate aspects of our friendships
posted by sartre08 at 1:19 AM on May 12, 2009
Best answer: Look, straight men, like other kinds of human being, also value emotional intimacy. Thus you don't have to be a threat in the bedroom department to be a threat. Consider how you would feel if some straight man, or a lesbian, were engaging with your lover and posting this question.
Sometimes it's not just a matter of how things are, but how they look.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:32 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sometimes it's not just a matter of how things are, but how they look.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:32 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
whenever we drink or smoke pot etc it is 99% of the time at their suggestion, not mine. It is just that I am likely to take up the offer
That you're not the initiator of the behavior is beside the point. You're still enabling and encouraging the behavior by taking part in it. I'm not for or against drugs or alcohol, but it seems to me that if you're regularly getting high/drunk with these women, people who know them are naturally going to associate you with their drugging and drinking. Stop 'taking up the offer' and people will stop linking you with these women's substance use. Yes, you'll be giving up some fun times - it's up to you to decide whether it's worth it or not.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 1:42 AM on May 12, 2009
That you're not the initiator of the behavior is beside the point. You're still enabling and encouraging the behavior by taking part in it. I'm not for or against drugs or alcohol, but it seems to me that if you're regularly getting high/drunk with these women, people who know them are naturally going to associate you with their drugging and drinking. Stop 'taking up the offer' and people will stop linking you with these women's substance use. Yes, you'll be giving up some fun times - it's up to you to decide whether it's worth it or not.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 1:42 AM on May 12, 2009
I have a close friend who is gay, and people often he assume he is my fiancee/SO if they haven't met my actual SO. My SO accepts that he's part of my life, but there is still some small amount of homophobia - just phobia, not hate - on the part of my SO, and he is jealous of the time I spend with my friend in a way that he isn't with my straight friends male or female. It's one part male territorialism and one part that my friend's work schedule allows him to do cool things with me that my sweetie can't always go and do.
Here's the thing: in my relationship, it's my responsibility to navigate any issues that my SO has with my friend. I only hold my friend accountable for the way he acts towards my SO, and I'm very clear with both of them what my boundaries are. I have, however, had a little trouble getting them to talk to each other about their own boundaries between the two - for instance, joke hitting on my SO pretty much makes him want to crawl under a table and hide, while this is my friend's warped way of expressing that he likes and trusts my SO.
What happens in your female friend's personal relationships is really their business, and their decision about the men they choose. It has, in the end likely little or nothing to do with you. However, if you're really concerned, ask their men to go for a pint and have a man to man talk where you lay it out and hear them out on their boundaries, too - if you date men, you already know how territorial they can get and how fragile their egoes are, and it's especially true while young.
posted by medea42 at 2:15 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing: in my relationship, it's my responsibility to navigate any issues that my SO has with my friend. I only hold my friend accountable for the way he acts towards my SO, and I'm very clear with both of them what my boundaries are. I have, however, had a little trouble getting them to talk to each other about their own boundaries between the two - for instance, joke hitting on my SO pretty much makes him want to crawl under a table and hide, while this is my friend's warped way of expressing that he likes and trusts my SO.
What happens in your female friend's personal relationships is really their business, and their decision about the men they choose. It has, in the end likely little or nothing to do with you. However, if you're really concerned, ask their men to go for a pint and have a man to man talk where you lay it out and hear them out on their boundaries, too - if you date men, you already know how territorial they can get and how fragile their egoes are, and it's especially true while young.
posted by medea42 at 2:15 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seriously, I would be pretty pissed, then incredulous, if my bf were snuggling naked with a female friend of his, and then the both of them telling me to get over it because she was a lesbian. Hahaha!!! In fact, I'd be out the door, pretty much.
But I think the guys should really be thanking you. You showed them their girlfriends could really give a crap about their feelings. They deserve women who at least respect them.
Two of said friends have ended their relationships recently, and I cannot help but feel I was a contributing factor, because of the fact that I came up in their break up talks, and often my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends - their words not mine.
Your girlfriends sound like jerks, and you guys sound like you delight in stroking each other's egos at the expense of others.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:18 AM on May 12, 2009 [12 favorites]
But I think the guys should really be thanking you. You showed them their girlfriends could really give a crap about their feelings. They deserve women who at least respect them.
Two of said friends have ended their relationships recently, and I cannot help but feel I was a contributing factor, because of the fact that I came up in their break up talks, and often my friends will spend time with me over their boring boyfriends - their words not mine.
Your girlfriends sound like jerks, and you guys sound like you delight in stroking each other's egos at the expense of others.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:18 AM on May 12, 2009 [12 favorites]
Also echoing medea42, not sure why you are responsible for your friends' relationships. It's really not your business. For all you know, your friends could be using you as a way to break up with their boyfriends more easily, which is what it sounds like. (I mean, if they really CARED about the guy they were dating, I doubt this would even be an issue.)
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:25 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:25 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
that their girlfriends rave about how great I am/how much fun I am
And you wonder why they hate you?! Jesus man, the girlfriends are telegraphing to their boyfriends face that if you weren't gay, they'd dump their boyfriends in a heartbeat and have a relationship with you. Hell, maybe they'll try to hook up with you anyway, because you're so great and fun. The girlfriends are the real problem here, dating men they don't really seem to like, then constantly comparing you to them while having emotional affairs with you.
As a general rule, avoid people who constantly bitch about their SOs. It's unhealthy and reeks of drama.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:35 AM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
And you wonder why they hate you?! Jesus man, the girlfriends are telegraphing to their boyfriends face that if you weren't gay, they'd dump their boyfriends in a heartbeat and have a relationship with you. Hell, maybe they'll try to hook up with you anyway, because you're so great and fun. The girlfriends are the real problem here, dating men they don't really seem to like, then constantly comparing you to them while having emotional affairs with you.
As a general rule, avoid people who constantly bitch about their SOs. It's unhealthy and reeks of drama.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:35 AM on May 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
While it's possible you're an annoying flamer, I'm going to take a different tack here. It's common for women to be attracted to broken guys, to fix them, which is likely no surprise (bad-boy syndrome). The way it might be operating here is that these women party, sleep over, and generally hang out with you, but are attracted to guys who aren't like you (aside from straightness) for whatever reason. However, the way in these guys need to be fixed (as the girl might see it) may just lie in the fact that they're simply homophobes. Fag-hags attracted to homophobes to try and loosen them up, with you unfortunately being the victim of the effects of their inability to do so.
posted by rhizome at 2:56 AM on May 12, 2009
posted by rhizome at 2:56 AM on May 12, 2009
Response by poster: A lot of this felt a bit harsh at first but I do see everybody's point that my friends are probably more in the wrong here for involving me in their relationship troubles and not really giving a shit about their boyfriends legitimate feelings.
I feel a bit stupid now for not taking the guys feelings into consideration...they are only human I guess and not really being homophobic... it would be the same if a guy was doing this with my boyfriend, I feel stupid for feeling victimized over and not considering this simple analogous situation. Really their reactions were mostly reasonable, even if they were dicks at times. I am only 19 so sometimes the ability to put myself in the other parties shoes does not come immediately even if it looks simple on paper. And the tendency to make things about the gay issue can come a little too quickly, having come up with homophobia in other situations all too often, so feeling a little bit insecure over it.
I guess a talk is in order over what it is appropriate for us to be doing, while they are in a relationship anyway. That is unless they find one of these infinitely secure and tolerant guys mentioned above, but chances are that will not happen.
Thanks for the much needed perspective...was not expecting so many replies.
posted by sartre08 at 3:52 AM on May 12, 2009 [5 favorites]
I feel a bit stupid now for not taking the guys feelings into consideration...they are only human I guess and not really being homophobic... it would be the same if a guy was doing this with my boyfriend, I feel stupid for feeling victimized over and not considering this simple analogous situation. Really their reactions were mostly reasonable, even if they were dicks at times. I am only 19 so sometimes the ability to put myself in the other parties shoes does not come immediately even if it looks simple on paper. And the tendency to make things about the gay issue can come a little too quickly, having come up with homophobia in other situations all too often, so feeling a little bit insecure over it.
I guess a talk is in order over what it is appropriate for us to be doing, while they are in a relationship anyway. That is unless they find one of these infinitely secure and tolerant guys mentioned above, but chances are that will not happen.
Thanks for the much needed perspective...was not expecting so many replies.
posted by sartre08 at 3:52 AM on May 12, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'm late to this part, but I'll throw in my experience. I'm a straight male, a serial-monogamist, and a guy who tended to have more female friends than male for a large portion of my life.
My freshman year of college, I collected a whole bunch of female friends. I was a dating a girl who was still in high school long distance as well. She was a little jealous of all of the great talking I was doing about all of these girls, who were "so sweet, etc etc." Now, while not quite like your situation, I was not attracted to these girls - these were seriously platonic relationships. But I slept in their rooms a lot, because the walk across campus was too far. I even slept in their beds occasionally. Nothing ever happened - and I never even thought there was anything wrong with this. But when she found out, it hit the fan. I was confused - I wasn't attracted to these women, nothing physical happened... why was she mad?
This is less about a one-to-one analogous situation than showing that actions we take, especially when we are younger (and I say that as a wizened 24 year old male, hah), have many unintended consequences. You sleeping in their beds, going skinny dipping, and generally being emotionally close to their girlfriends may not seem like anything wrong to you, but it is a threat to them.
I think you've gotten some good perspective in this thread. This feels like one of those "grey" situations, where everyone has a valid point of view. Some people are showing it more poorly than others (their boyfriends shouldn't be dicks to you), but their feelings are just as valid as yours and their girlfriends'.
posted by SNWidget at 5:27 AM on May 12, 2009
My freshman year of college, I collected a whole bunch of female friends. I was a dating a girl who was still in high school long distance as well. She was a little jealous of all of the great talking I was doing about all of these girls, who were "so sweet, etc etc." Now, while not quite like your situation, I was not attracted to these girls - these were seriously platonic relationships. But I slept in their rooms a lot, because the walk across campus was too far. I even slept in their beds occasionally. Nothing ever happened - and I never even thought there was anything wrong with this. But when she found out, it hit the fan. I was confused - I wasn't attracted to these women, nothing physical happened... why was she mad?
This is less about a one-to-one analogous situation than showing that actions we take, especially when we are younger (and I say that as a wizened 24 year old male, hah), have many unintended consequences. You sleeping in their beds, going skinny dipping, and generally being emotionally close to their girlfriends may not seem like anything wrong to you, but it is a threat to them.
I think you've gotten some good perspective in this thread. This feels like one of those "grey" situations, where everyone has a valid point of view. Some people are showing it more poorly than others (their boyfriends shouldn't be dicks to you), but their feelings are just as valid as yours and their girlfriends'.
posted by SNWidget at 5:27 AM on May 12, 2009
My take on this is that this is not your problem. It's theirs.
(Went to my senior prom with a gay guy who was a friend of mine because my college boyfriend could not go. College boyfriend was jealous altho he knew perfectly well there was nothing to be jealous about. My take was that it was his problem. Period.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:39 AM on May 12, 2009
(Went to my senior prom with a gay guy who was a friend of mine because my college boyfriend could not go. College boyfriend was jealous altho he knew perfectly well there was nothing to be jealous about. My take was that it was his problem. Period.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:39 AM on May 12, 2009
Start hitting on the boyfriends.1 Hey, in their own words, "people change," right?
1Not really. This is one of those "fun to imagine as a way of blowing off steam, but a bad idea in reality" things. Not least of which because it would probably piss off your female friends.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:54 AM on May 12, 2009
1Not really. This is one of those "fun to imagine as a way of blowing off steam, but a bad idea in reality" things. Not least of which because it would probably piss off your female friends.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:54 AM on May 12, 2009
Sometimes women people date jerks for a while and then gradually wise up about their jerkiness and move on. That especially happens when one's estimations of someone's attractiveness is based on a shared aesthetic instead of any real values.
Sounds like that's what's happening here. If you know you didn't do anything destructive or passive-aggressive to shoot these guys down, then who gives a fuck what they think?
posted by hermitosis at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2009
Sounds like that's what's happening here. If you know you didn't do anything destructive or passive-aggressive to shoot these guys down, then who gives a fuck what they think?
posted by hermitosis at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2009
I must also add, because this may change the tone of some peoples answers...me and the female friends are generally a lot closer than normal straight guy girl friendships are, we will stay over in each others beds when we have been hanging out and can't be bothered going home (of course only when the bfs are not there), don't have problems doing things like seeing each other in our underwear or whatever...also we have all gone skinny dipping together at the beach at night time...
Whoa nelly... this does put things in a whole new light. Definitely stay friends with your female friends and do things like hanging out and smoking pot and gossiping and all that because a mature minded-boyfriend should be able to accept that, but for heaven's sake nix anything involving nudity and/or being in the same bed. That's just asking too much of a partner's trust, regardless of how innocent it may actually be.
posted by orange swan at 6:50 AM on May 12, 2009
Whoa nelly... this does put things in a whole new light. Definitely stay friends with your female friends and do things like hanging out and smoking pot and gossiping and all that because a mature minded-boyfriend should be able to accept that, but for heaven's sake nix anything involving nudity and/or being in the same bed. That's just asking too much of a partner's trust, regardless of how innocent it may actually be.
posted by orange swan at 6:50 AM on May 12, 2009
The way you are describing yourself really reminds me of a guy I knew in college. He was a really good "gay boyfriend" to the girls, always up for dancing and slumberparty fun, and pretty much a decent guy.
BUT -- he was totally insufferable, because he had exactly one social register ("fun and flirty gay-boyfriend") and his emotional volume control was stuck on eleven. I'm sure he thought he was the recipient of a lot of homophobia, when really it was more like "woah dude, turn it down a notch!" And there's also the issue that something (like the underwear slumberparty) can be both platonic and highly erotically charged, which can make some people uncomfortable.
Guys like him (and you) provide something really important to a lot of young women. The chance to be around vibrant male sexuality without having that sexuality aimed directly at them is really freeing, I think, and needs to happen.
But that doesn't mean that you can't, unlike the guy I'm thinking of from college, learn to not only be a great gay-boyfriend to the girls, but also be fun to be around for other people in other settings.
I think what I'm saying here is that when people tell you this:
On top of this one of the boyfriends said to one of my friends who has been dumped (they were not in a relationship together, but both part of this group) that the reason guys weren't showing an interest in her was that amongst other things she was friends with me
they are trying to tell you something. Yes, maybe some guys aren't interested in her because she hangs out with a gay guy -- but more likely, the message there is that your overall performance is grating and tiresome for some people, and it is starting to have an impact on your friends' social options.
posted by Forktine at 7:51 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
BUT -- he was totally insufferable, because he had exactly one social register ("fun and flirty gay-boyfriend") and his emotional volume control was stuck on eleven. I'm sure he thought he was the recipient of a lot of homophobia, when really it was more like "woah dude, turn it down a notch!" And there's also the issue that something (like the underwear slumberparty) can be both platonic and highly erotically charged, which can make some people uncomfortable.
Guys like him (and you) provide something really important to a lot of young women. The chance to be around vibrant male sexuality without having that sexuality aimed directly at them is really freeing, I think, and needs to happen.
But that doesn't mean that you can't, unlike the guy I'm thinking of from college, learn to not only be a great gay-boyfriend to the girls, but also be fun to be around for other people in other settings.
I think what I'm saying here is that when people tell you this:
On top of this one of the boyfriends said to one of my friends who has been dumped (they were not in a relationship together, but both part of this group) that the reason guys weren't showing an interest in her was that amongst other things she was friends with me
they are trying to tell you something. Yes, maybe some guys aren't interested in her because she hangs out with a gay guy -- but more likely, the message there is that your overall performance is grating and tiresome for some people, and it is starting to have an impact on your friends' social options.
posted by Forktine at 7:51 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
You either want your behavior to be considered in the context of your sexual orientation, or you don't. It sounds like you do. I would say be careful: you don't get to pick and choose in which situations this takes place.
posted by jon_kill at 7:54 AM on May 12, 2009
posted by jon_kill at 7:54 AM on May 12, 2009
Your friends need to get better at showing their appreciation for their boyfriends. This is the same as any question that gets asked about women who are jealous of XBoxes or Fantasy Football leagues. It isn't your job (the same way it isn't the XBox's job) to prove that the partner is still entertaining and desirable. Girlfriends need to bring their game.
For me, law school was one big heteronormative sausagefest lending to plenty of opportunities for the breeders to do their little mating ritual thing. Your girlfriends may need to get better at doing that dance if they want their boyfriends to understand that they are appreciated. (Granted that they are in law school with you.) This is the same advice I'd give to a guy whose girlfriend was jealous that her boyfriend was always playing WoW: unplug and re-enter the real world to show her that she's just as entertaining as your level 75 paladin, and probably cuter.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:38 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
For me, law school was one big heteronormative sausagefest lending to plenty of opportunities for the breeders to do their little mating ritual thing. Your girlfriends may need to get better at doing that dance if they want their boyfriends to understand that they are appreciated. (Granted that they are in law school with you.) This is the same advice I'd give to a guy whose girlfriend was jealous that her boyfriend was always playing WoW: unplug and re-enter the real world to show her that she's just as entertaining as your level 75 paladin, and probably cuter.
posted by greekphilosophy at 8:38 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your friends need to get better at showing their appreciation for their boyfriends.
Or find boyfriends they appreciate more and stop stringing along guys they don't actually like.
When I was in my twenties, I had a series of boyfriends, and occasional girlfriends, but saved all my real love and intimacy for my straight female and gay male friends. Oh, what fun we had; I'd let the "Cast of Thousands" take me to dinner/movies/theater/bed, and then dish about it with my BFFs.
Bleagh. This is a shitty way to go through life; most importantly, you're treating your alleged romantic partner like an object, which is disrespectful and dishonest, but it's also a way of avoiding real intimacy and vulnerability with a partner and can keep you from developing grown-up romantic relationship skills.
Also, sartre08, where are YOUR boyfriends? Is this whole keeping a non-sexual harem of admiring faghags a way for you to avoid getting out there and meeting guys?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:12 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or find boyfriends they appreciate more and stop stringing along guys they don't actually like.
When I was in my twenties, I had a series of boyfriends, and occasional girlfriends, but saved all my real love and intimacy for my straight female and gay male friends. Oh, what fun we had; I'd let the "Cast of Thousands" take me to dinner/movies/theater/bed, and then dish about it with my BFFs.
Bleagh. This is a shitty way to go through life; most importantly, you're treating your alleged romantic partner like an object, which is disrespectful and dishonest, but it's also a way of avoiding real intimacy and vulnerability with a partner and can keep you from developing grown-up romantic relationship skills.
Also, sartre08, where are YOUR boyfriends? Is this whole keeping a non-sexual harem of admiring faghags a way for you to avoid getting out there and meeting guys?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:12 AM on May 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
As a gay man a few decades older than the OP, I wanted to answer this point, which so far has been neglected:
...I am worried our friendship may be unhealthy and that somehow by hanging out with them I am destining them to be single "fag-hags" for ever, and this almost makes me want to distance myself from them to avoid this.
If haggery is destiny, honey, they'll find someone else. Gay men are like streetcars; there's always another coming. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
You don't have the power to convert women to hag-dom, any more than you have the power to convert straight men to gayness. Or what everyone is saying: You have a lot of growing up to do. Take your time, be gentle and considerate with others, and with yourself.
posted by Robert Angelo at 2:15 PM on May 12, 2009
...I am worried our friendship may be unhealthy and that somehow by hanging out with them I am destining them to be single "fag-hags" for ever, and this almost makes me want to distance myself from them to avoid this.
If haggery is destiny, honey, they'll find someone else. Gay men are like streetcars; there's always another coming. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
You don't have the power to convert women to hag-dom, any more than you have the power to convert straight men to gayness. Or what everyone is saying: You have a lot of growing up to do. Take your time, be gentle and considerate with others, and with yourself.
posted by Robert Angelo at 2:15 PM on May 12, 2009
Best answer: This sounds like an issue of both priorities and boundaries. When you're 19, I think your priority should be your friends over boyfriends/girlfriends. It sounds like your female friends are dating pretty casually (they find their boyfriends boring, prefer spending time with friends in a clique-ish way). I mean, it would be nice if their boyfriends were on the same page; as it is there seems to be miscommunication and disparate expectations for the couples you mention. That really is their problem to figure out how to solve, though, not yours. As you get older and gain more life experience, you (and your friends) may give more priority to finding a serious, romantic relationship and will have to learn to erect healthy boundaries and prioritize your partner's feelings and make compromises and all that.
This is not to say fuck the boyfriends' feelings at all. You should continue to do what you say you're doing, which is be friendly and welcoming. But also consider cutting out some of the borderline behaviors, like bed-sharing and seeing each other naked. That's easy enough to do and may ease tensions.
posted by JenMarie at 4:16 PM on May 12, 2009
This is not to say fuck the boyfriends' feelings at all. You should continue to do what you say you're doing, which is be friendly and welcoming. But also consider cutting out some of the borderline behaviors, like bed-sharing and seeing each other naked. That's easy enough to do and may ease tensions.
posted by JenMarie at 4:16 PM on May 12, 2009
And you know what, good on you for taking everyone's criticism and not getting defensive.
A lot of people on here are much older than 19 and completely incapable of that.
posted by exceptinsects at 7:41 PM on May 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
A lot of people on here are much older than 19 and completely incapable of that.
posted by exceptinsects at 7:41 PM on May 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
I mainly wanted to say that some of these details seem very much related to context. I lived for a while up in this rural small town with a bunch of artist types. The social scene was pretty entwined, everyone knew everyone, and there was a lot of platonic bed-sharing when someone was too buzzed or tired to drive (the 45 minutes of windy roads) home, especially when people's beds were in converted barns or on unwalled concrete slabs with just a roof above them (places without guest rooms or comfortable floors). That was among the more musician crowd, while there were some people who would have had more of an issue with it. There are certainly lots of places where co-ed sauna / hot springs nudity is not a big deal at all.
So don't take this all on yourself. An alternative scenario is that you could go on being like you're being, and they could go on being the way they're being, and then maybe one of them starts dating this charismatic tattoo artist who (believes he) could get any female he wants. And maybe this guy would accept you as being (in your self-definition) so gay that this would never be an issue, and accepts her relationship as an important part of her life but something that's not that relevant to him. While he's off creating his blown-glass sculptures or whatever, you and she could go take a quick swim in the creek, and then she'd head back to him and their passionate relationship, and it might all be no big deal.
Long before you get to glass-blowing tattoo artists or hippie musicians, you can probably find people and social contexts where all this would be more accepted than some comments here imply. The world has this huge range of people, and people don't need to fit in everywhere; there's this natural sorting between, oh, ages 19 and 28 as people find cities and groups of friends that they fit in with. So even if you're not fitting in where you're at now, you don't necessarily need to let it get to you. It's really good to ask the questions you're asking, and to open up the discussion with your friends, and to be concerned about the guys' concerns -- that won't change with context. But you don't necessarily need to permanently change your way of relating to female friends in reaction to whatever it is that's going on with these few guys, just to make this one context work.
posted by salvia at 11:22 PM on May 12, 2009
So don't take this all on yourself. An alternative scenario is that you could go on being like you're being, and they could go on being the way they're being, and then maybe one of them starts dating this charismatic tattoo artist who (believes he) could get any female he wants. And maybe this guy would accept you as being (in your self-definition) so gay that this would never be an issue, and accepts her relationship as an important part of her life but something that's not that relevant to him. While he's off creating his blown-glass sculptures or whatever, you and she could go take a quick swim in the creek, and then she'd head back to him and their passionate relationship, and it might all be no big deal.
Long before you get to glass-blowing tattoo artists or hippie musicians, you can probably find people and social contexts where all this would be more accepted than some comments here imply. The world has this huge range of people, and people don't need to fit in everywhere; there's this natural sorting between, oh, ages 19 and 28 as people find cities and groups of friends that they fit in with. So even if you're not fitting in where you're at now, you don't necessarily need to let it get to you. It's really good to ask the questions you're asking, and to open up the discussion with your friends, and to be concerned about the guys' concerns -- that won't change with context. But you don't necessarily need to permanently change your way of relating to female friends in reaction to whatever it is that's going on with these few guys, just to make this one context work.
posted by salvia at 11:22 PM on May 12, 2009
I've talked on here before about my best long-term friend. We're both hetero; I'm a woman and he's a man. We've shared a bed to sleep, but never kissed. He broke my heart once upon a time, but he was right to do it, and we got to be better friends over the years because we never crossed that line. He's the best uncle for my children. I'm an only child and his sister is many years older than he is.
I've told partners that he's the one guy they don't get to be jealous of. It's kinda harsh, but it separates the wheat from the chaff.
His wife couldn't hardly stand me until I got married last year. I understood and respected her anxieties about our friendship. I mean, they had been platonic friends for years before they started dating, and I'd been around longer.
Anyhow, my advice is to tone it down with your lady friends and maybe tone it down around the boyfriends. Concentrate more on being a friend and less of a cuddle friend, if that makes sense. The emotional intimacy advice above is sound.
I got to see my buddy a couple days ago (after months of him working and in grad school, so visits have been rare and precious) and totally launch hugged him and he picked me up off of the ground, but I wouldn't have been worried at all if both of our spouses had been standing right there. I don't think our spouses would have been concerned, either.
Maybe brotherly is the tone you should look for, rather than cuddly.
That's the fine peace that we have found.
posted by lilywing13 at 12:28 AM on May 13, 2009
I've told partners that he's the one guy they don't get to be jealous of. It's kinda harsh, but it separates the wheat from the chaff.
His wife couldn't hardly stand me until I got married last year. I understood and respected her anxieties about our friendship. I mean, they had been platonic friends for years before they started dating, and I'd been around longer.
Anyhow, my advice is to tone it down with your lady friends and maybe tone it down around the boyfriends. Concentrate more on being a friend and less of a cuddle friend, if that makes sense. The emotional intimacy advice above is sound.
I got to see my buddy a couple days ago (after months of him working and in grad school, so visits have been rare and precious) and totally launch hugged him and he picked me up off of the ground, but I wouldn't have been worried at all if both of our spouses had been standing right there. I don't think our spouses would have been concerned, either.
Maybe brotherly is the tone you should look for, rather than cuddly.
That's the fine peace that we have found.
posted by lilywing13 at 12:28 AM on May 13, 2009
You're 19 and in law school? That's pretty precocious.
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:13 AM on May 14, 2009
posted by The ____ of Justice at 2:13 AM on May 14, 2009
Response by poster: @ the ____ of justice ...I'm in New Zealand were law school is an undergraduate degree where first year is open to everyone then you have to pass to get into second year and so on...so not particularly, haha.
posted by sartre08 at 3:21 AM on May 14, 2009
posted by sartre08 at 3:21 AM on May 14, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Since you asked what to do about it - have you tried befriending those boyfriends? I know I'm more jealous of friends of my wife (male or female) if they only talk to my wife and don't make an effort to relate to me also.
posted by peter_meta_kbd at 11:22 PM on May 11, 2009