I'm glad bookstores are in business, but how?

May 10, 2009 7:18 PM

How do bookstores make money?

Ever since books were available for sale online, I've stopped buying books from bookstores. I assume other rational people purchase their books online or at local used stores.

What's keeping brick and mortar bookstores in business? Especially the ones that stock new titles?

Older patrons? People who just like browsing and picking up interesting looking books? Kids?

Some seem to rely on side businesses like movie/game rentals, music and a coffeeshop. Barnes and Noble sell online too, but don't they ship their books from a warehouse?

So how do they make rent? Harry Potter and Twilight release parties?

posted by abdulf to work & money (58 comments total)

I don't understand the question. If I find out about a book that sounds interesting, I drive to Barnes & Noble and buy it. I don't have a reason to order it online and wait for it to be shipped.
posted by rancidchickn at 7:21 PM on May 10

Lots of smaller bookstores aren't making money at all, they're closing down like crazy.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:22 PM on May 10

In college towns, indies often compete with the college bookstore for the captive textbook market. When I worked at the Seminary Co-Op in Chicago, textbooks were pretty integral to the store's survival strategy, and I know that our local indie also relies on textbook sales.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:23 PM on May 10

These aren't good times for brick and mortar bookstores. So part of the answer is that a lot of them aren't making money.

The other answer is that a lot of people enjoy going to bookstores. They're fun places to hang out and browse. When they see a book there that they'd like to own, they often buy it right away, rather than trusting that they'll remember to order it online once they get home. A lot of people want to start reading immediately, too, or they're purchasing a last-minute gift. The point is that the bookstores that are doing ok are the ones that get people through the door in the first place. They actually don't make a lot of money on coffee. The coffee is a loss-leader to get you in the door, so that you'll browse and buy books.
posted by craichead at 7:26 PM on May 10

Some people actually enjoy going to bookstores.

And not everyone has a computer.

Bookstores is one of those words that stops looking like a word after you've read it two or three times.
posted by iconomy at 7:26 PM on May 10

The super short answer is that they're not making any money.

Big box book retailers have been putting local shops out of business for 20 years now, and with Amazon coming along and threatening the biggies everyone's going south. The publishing and book retailing business runs on razor-thin margins, which is in part why you've seen the big stores branch out into other media (CDs and DVDs, which ultimately have let them down) and stationary/gifts. So, Borders is in its death throes and I think Barnes & Noble can't be much better off.

Borders is not shuttered yet only because they're still hemorrhaging store management/employees and cutting executive salaries at a rate that allows them to secure loans from their principal investors. It's how they survived this past year, and will likely end badly in 6-12 months.
posted by carsonb at 7:27 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

I just bought some random crap from a big box bookstore because it was the only place open. (I bought some gifts, and a thank-you card, and some to-do list mousepad that I don't need.)
posted by typewriter at 7:27 PM on May 10

Some people don't like delayed gratification. When I want a book I want it right now. Not in 7-10 days or pay $10 extra for priority overnight. I want to drive to Borders or Barnes & Noble and take possession immediately.
posted by aperture_priority at 7:28 PM on May 10

I assume other rational people purchase their books online or at local used stores.

You assume incorrectly. Many also use the library. Many people don't shop online for various reasons. There is a thriving bookstore in my small town. Most people in the town who buy books, as near as I can tell, buy them there. There is no such thing as a local used store near here. The nearest Barnes & Noble is maybe a 45 minute drive, in another state. I have friends that work at other bookstores. The ones that I know who are doing decently combine selling books from their store with selling books online that are nichey so people won't/can't buy them from Amazon. They also sell textbooks which are sort of a nice cash cow. Bookstores make money because everyone in the world isn't like you.
posted by jessamyn at 7:28 PM on May 10 [12 favorites]

Why do you think it is more rational to buy books online or at used book stores? Buying online requires you to wait several days to receive your order--why wait when you can just drive to the nearest store and have it within a half hour? And used book stores cannot guarantee they will have in stock what you want, especially if you want a book in good condition that will last you several years.

You seem to be assuming that what you think counts as the best option must be the only reasonable option.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:29 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

They're all struggling. But in my case, the reason I patronize physical bookstores is this—

People who just like browsing and picking up interesting looking books?

Browsing online has always been far less successful for me than browsing in person. Sure, if I know the exact title I want and I'm not in a hurry, I'll order from Amazon, Powell's, or one of the used-book-catalogue-network systems. But if I want it now, or if I'm not 100% sure if I want it, or if I just want to see what cool new stuff is available, then I walk over to the bookstore.
posted by hattifattener at 7:31 PM on May 10

I assume

[adamsavage]
Well THERE'S your problem.
[/adamsavage]

What keeps them in business: people who don't meet your assumptions.

I sometimes buy books from brick and mortar stores. Sometimes I want a book RIGHT THE FUCK NOW. Other times I'm just looking for paperbacks, where the savings from buying online are pretty minimal. Sorry if that makes me nonrational.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:33 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

If I go to a physical bookstore, I can pick up the book, flip through it, read a chunk of it, and decide if I want it or not. Amazon's "Look Inside" feature is OK as far as it goes, but not all books have this feature. And those that do, don't show all pages. And it can be a real pain to use, because they specifically *don't* want you reading the book on-line.

Browsing without intent to buy is fun too, but then you do end up buying something eventually.

As was noted, in general small retail stores are closing down, leaving only the larger stores. And it's not just bookstores - I could talk about photography stores closing down too, but that's another subject.
posted by thermonuclear.jive.turkey at 7:35 PM on May 10

I'm a university student who orders lots of stuff online, including books, but I just like walking over to my neighborhood bookstore, finding what I want, and buying it. Books often sell for a bit more compared to Amazon, and since Toronto is near the Amazon.ca warehouse, books only take 1-2 days shipping at most even with the cheapest shipping option.

I'm totally not the "buy local" type, so I guess I don't have a good explanation for why I like doing this. But for the purposes of your question, I guess it's enough that there are people like me who prefer buying from bookstores if possible - "irrational" buyers if you will. Especially in the case of the local graphic novel bookstore, I enjoy the service they provide (being able to browse around and look at comics, and possibly discover new stuff) that I always buy from them even though you can find all of the books they sell on Amazon and probably cheaper too.

I like browsing around bookstores although I rarely make any impulse buys of books that seem interesting if I've never heard of them before. If I happen across a book or author I've heard of before, I may pick it up.

As for stores selling only music, I have no idea how they stay in business, but I imagine it's something similar.
posted by pravit at 7:38 PM on May 10

I assume other rational people purchase their books online or at local used stores.

I don't see why you would assume this. I think it's irrational for you to devalue the impact of browsing, impulse purchases, readings and signings by authors, book clubs, and all the other advantages that local bookstores offer that aren't offered by online sellers.

If you don't love the bookstore experience, that's fine. But implying that those who do aren't "rational" is kind of jerky.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:41 PM on May 10 [8 favorites]

I don't really shop online and don't go to Chapters (nothing against it, but it's not near my house and I don't have a car). There's a used bookstore around the corner from my house. Been there about twenty years. They're selective about what they take, the store has a great layout, the staff are awesome, and they take requests and will call you if a book you want comes in. They also deal in the "nichey" stuff (to borrow jessamyn's word creation skills).

Other than that, I subsist on the library and swapping books with the people I like.
posted by futureisunwritten at 7:43 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

Some seem to rely on side businesses like movie/game rentals, music and a coffeeshop.

This is the first thing I thought of, but then I remembered that one of the Borders near here is apparently liquidating its music section; I suspect that while book sales have slowed, CD sales have been demolished.

There are a heck of a lot of coffee + books places, though, aren't there? Every bookstore I go to save one or two also sells at least a few drinks, and one has a full-fledged cafe with waitstaff.
posted by danb at 7:43 PM on May 10

Also, I don't know what sort of city you're in, but I imagine that neighborhood bookstores in dense urban areas do better than big box stores in more suburban areas. In my hometown (where you need a car to go anywhere) I rarely bought stuff at the local Hastings since it never had anything I wanted. But now I live in a larger city and there are several bookstores only a couple blocks away, so I often walk over and browse around and occasionally I buy stuff. I'm probably not the only person who does this either.
posted by pravit at 7:55 PM on May 10

I think the OP is perfectly in the right to assume that most people will either buy a book (as well as other media) online or get it from the library. If not "most," then enough for the stores to feel the pinch. Even if it wasn't the case a couple of years ago, I think it would be in this "wintry economic climate." More and more people have to wonder, "Why pay $20 for a book today when you can get one for almost half in a few days?"

I thought along the same lines as the OP recently when I bought a book (online), and realized how weird it was that it used to be that the big bookstores were the villain putting small local shops out of business (I think they even made a romantic-comedy about it with the likable Tom Hanks), and now they're sort of the sympathetic underdog.

I'm guessing new bestsellers are close in price to those found online, so a lot of people still get them in person. It's the older stuff that's sold at list value, and do much better online. Music/video stores seemed to be the same way, and we know what's happening to them. I know Borders and B&N were talking merger a while back, but that seemed to fizzle out.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 7:57 PM on May 10

Browsing in a bookstore can be more conducive to randomly finding tons of books you didn't know about.

The physical layout of a bookstore is a familiar structure that helps you know what to make of the books. Of course, Amazon does have categories, but I never end up using them. I like philosophy, so I know to go over to "PHILOSOPHY" in the bookstore. Sure enough, all the philosophy books the store carries are right there, in a clear order, and I can visually scan them in just a few seconds. On Amazon, the process seems more haphazard, less comprehensive.

You can read a book to see if it's worth buying while drinking coffee at Borders or Barnes & Noble.

You can read the books, period. Amazon has previews, but not for all books. And some books have previews only for some pages. Some only let you say "surprise me." Some let you search for terms, but I don't think any of the previews let you specify any page in the book.

Buying stuff online can be disappointing if the thing ends up not looking how you expected it to look. I'm often disappointed that products turn out to be smaller than I imagined. Sometimes I'll take a book off the bookstore's bookshelf and instantly think, "This isn't substantial enough," just from looking at it and flipping through for a couple seconds. You can't necessarily figure this out from Amazon. True, they show you the number of pages and physical dimensions, but the decision-making process is more instinctive than that.

This is extremely important: I've stopped buying books unless the typesetting is very pleasing to my eyes. For instance, the previous sentence looks so bad that I would never buy a book with sentences that look like that. Maybe you think this is a ridiculous example, but it's actually common to see books where some letters are bolder than others. Not everyone cares about typography and typesetting, but I do.

I also care about the paper quality. I avoid books with newsprint-like paper. I like to feel the cover -- what's the texture? Smoothy, glossy, etc.? Buying online is a gamble in this respect.

Also, the Borders in my town (Albany, NY) closed down last year. So you may be partly right.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:02 PM on May 10

I live in Austin, and one of the reasons I really like it is because there are so many wonderful businesses of all kinds that are truly independent and locally-owned, which gives the city a lot more color than other places I've lived. I like that color, so I support those businesses. So, although I do order from Amazon, I make a point to visit places like End Of An Ear Records or Waterloo Records or Bookpeople and buy from them, even when it usually costs more.

Why? Well for one, I've met some great people at all three places. I saw the Flatlanders for free at Waterloo - with free beer from Shiner (!), and I've listened to many authors speak at Bookpeople. I get good recommendations at all of those places, and I find spending time there a pretty enjoyable way to waste a few hours. Amazon had yet to provide any of that to me.

When I came to America, Borders had a pretty great selection, and with coupons and sales, I could find fairly obscure stuff there at a good price. They started putting long-existing local record and book stores out of business. And gradually, Borders' selection eroded. They didn't pay people enough to attract those with deeper knowledge, and they cut off a lot of ordering sources from which they used to get more esoteric stuff. Once they (along with Best Buy, Circuit City, et al) had killed a large number of small local retailers, they started cutting out CDs, and I've noticed fewer titles in less popular book genres (like Eastern European history). Now, in many towns, there's no place left to buy CDs at all, except Amazon, and bookstores are in shambles. At some point, I reckon, Amazon will realize that they could cut out about 96% of the titles they stock while only killing about 2% of sales, and they'll figure this to be cost-effective. Then where will I find Marta Sebestyen or This Heat or Ferus Mustafov or Mikey Dread records? The same deal holds true with books. It's easier to be a *little* bit more broke by supporting good local business than by being utterly deprived culturally when all the usual outlets have disappeared.

So in short, they live off people like me and others who believe this.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 8:13 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]

I'm another one of those people who much prefers going to my local bookstore rather than buying online. I love the browsing and random finds. I love the smell of a bookstore. I love the experience of picking up the books and flipping through them. I love that a lot of brick and mortar stores host author visits.

I've been shopping at my local bookstore for close to 20 years. I know the staff and love getting recommendations from them. (They also put recommendations on cards they post throughout the bookshelves. If I see certain sellers' names, I'll stop and check out the book.) I've found many great books at the bookstore that I doubt I'd have found online. I'm just not patient enough to wade through a site like Amazon.
posted by aine42 at 8:13 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

Browsing has gotten to be close to impossible in Borders or B&N in the last few years; they seem to have reduced their in-store inventory dramatically. The last time that I went to Borders, the computer book section was pathetic, I looked around for five minutes, they didn't have anything close to what I wanted so I went home and ordered it from Amazon. And even though I live in a fairly large city, the only choices that I have are big box chains. I'd be really surprised if any of the chains survived the next two or three years at which time I'll have no bookstores to go to.
posted by octothorpe at 8:14 PM on May 10

I keep them in business. Yes -- all of them.

Well, okay, not really, but you're underestimating the power of instant gratification and browsing.

I tend to buy my bookclub books online, because I know exactly what I want, many weeks in advance, and I have time to order and receive the book. But unless I'm shopping from a list for a very specific thing, the act of browsing is what finds me the books I want, and for all the recommendations, people who bought and listmania lists, Amazon just can't hold a candle to wandering up and down the aisles looking at covers. They just can't.

I but books for my family for Christmas every year, and I buy them online and ship them to wherever we'll all be, but I struggle with that tremendously, because I just can't find books I think they'll love on a website the way I can in bookstores. Last year, I ended up going to Chapters, wandering around until I found the books I wanted and then going home and ordering them. This year, I did it all online, and I'm really not happy with the ones I chose.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:15 PM on May 10

The super short answer is that they're not making any money.

This is about right. With a few notable exceptions, most bookstores really struggle to pay the bills: it's never been a great way to get rich. In the 1990s three things happened: the advent of online retail (amazon), the advent of the big box bookstores (B&N, borders), and, due to one and two, the shuttering of many independents.

The results are, circa 2009: amazon is thriving, most of the indies still remaining have survived the worst, and are doing ok, and the big box stores are withering on the vine. Borders, in particular, has been rumored to be going out of business for several years now, and my guess is that happens soon. B&N has already begun closing stores, and will be closing a lot of more soon, mark my words. The big box store explosion of the 1990s was built on fumes: a lot of suburban areas that had no huge demand for books at all suddenly found themselves with two giant stores (a B&N and a borders: often very close to each other). It was obvious to anyone in the business that it could not last. That began 15 years ago, peaked around 1999 or so, and is now about to hit the rocks.

Please note that I'm putting aside in this equation airport news/bookstores, bestseller and mass market paperback sales in Wal Mart and grocery stores, etc.
posted by ornate insect at 8:15 PM on May 10

Some people don't like delayed gratification. When I want a book I want it right now. Not in 7-10 days or pay $10 extra for priority overnight. I want to drive to Borders or Barnes & Noble and take possession immediately.

That's what Amazon prime is for! I once ordered a $1.50 mini-tripod from them and had shipped in two days. Heh.
posted by delmoi at 8:17 PM on May 10

I assume other rational people purchase their books online or at local used stores.

As a non-rational person, I visit the local Barnes & Noble for several reasons:

- Online browsing is difficult. If I know what I want, online is better - if I don't know, in person is better.
- Instant gratification.
- I can buy british magazines, which for some bizarre reason aren't available online at a reasonable cost.
- It's kind of a comfortable place to hang out.

Having said that, I do spend more money on Amazon than B&N these days, because you can't beat their selection. And since the Kindle app for iPhone came out, B&N has lost even more of my business.

I never use the library or the "local used store". Neither have enough selection to satisfy someone as picky as I am.

You do need to realize that there are lots of people, not all of them old, who don't buy anything online. I know lots of them. Apparently there aren't enough to save Borders, though.

I think the OP is perfectly in the right to assume that most people will either buy a book (as well as other media) online or get it from the library.

Absolutely, but it's rather rude to assume that those who won't are irrational.
posted by mmoncur at 8:19 PM on May 10

At some point, I reckon, Amazon will realize that they could cut out about 96% of the titles they stock while only killing about 2% of sales, and they'll figure this to be cost-effective. Then where will I find Marta Sebestyen or This Heat or Ferus Mustafov or Mikey Dread records? The same deal holds true with books. It's easier to be a *little* bit more broke by supporting good local business than by being utterly deprived culturally when all the usual outlets have disappeared.

The economics for amazon are really different then for big-box retailers. If none is buying a book from amazon, it just sits there in their warehouse, not costing much money. But if a book isn't selling well at a big-box that takes up critical space in a huge number of stores. And furthermore, Amazon cutting 96% of their titles would do emense damage to their sales. Amazon, unlike most brick and morter stores with limited space makes a lot of money from "The long tail"

Anderson argued that products that are in low demand or have low sales volume can collectively make up a market share that rivals or exceeds the relatively few current bestsellers and blockbusters, if the store or distribution channel is large enough. Anderson cites earlier research by Erik Brynjolfsson, Yu (Jeffrey) Hu, and Michael D. Smith, that showed that a significant portion of Amazon.com's sales come from obscure books that are not available in brick-and-mortar stores. The Long Tail is a potential market and, as the examples illustrate, the distribution and sales channel opportunities created by the Internet often enable businesses to tap that market successfully.

An Amazon employee described the Long Tail as follows: "We sold more books today that didn't sell at all yesterday than we sold today of all the books that did sell yesterday."[6]

I doubt amazon will be cutting their selection anytime soon, although you might see them move some titles to kindle-only, if they go out of print.
posted by delmoi at 8:24 PM on May 10 [2 favorites]

Borders Profit Plunges; Debt, Inventory Are Cut (WSJ; April 2009)

**

the Borders in my town (Albany, NY) closed down last year.

I'm not surprised: you'll recall it was across from a B&N (I used to visit the independent book stores in that area as a travelling book sales rep for a major trade publisher). Today I went, just out of curiosity, into a B&N and a Borders that are in the same shopping complex (maybe 500 yards from each other) in suburban New Mexico. Both were empty, and the Borders in particular really looked like it was going out of business: there was no inventory. B&N has also quietly closed a number of stores in the past two years: for instance, the store in Chelsea (NYC).
posted by ornate insect at 8:37 PM on May 10

I go to my local bookstore because they are huge and carry new and used books and I can almost always find what I want in stock or have it ordered (for free) within a couple days. If I'm going on a trip I can buy mindless airplane entertainment for a couple bucks there versus $8-9 at the airport. They buy used books so I can get rid of stuff I don't want anymore. And I like that they carry out-of-print and locally published books too. Many non book things, like local raffle tickets are sold there. They have a good coffee shop and sell some local artists works and locally made crafts. In sum there are lots of reasons to go there instead of Amazon. In fact, I've had to cut myself off as I was spending far too much money there!

Almost all bookstores can order you books very quickly and you don't have to pay shipping btw.
posted by fshgrl at 8:45 PM on May 10

With the economic downturn and the continued growth of amazon, even Powell's Books of Portland is struggling.
posted by ornate insect at 8:51 PM on May 10

I worked in a bookstore over this past holiday/textbook rush and yep, it was struggling too. The textbooks markups (selling to Columbia University mainly, along with several other colleges) were what the store used to keep itself in business the rest of the year.

However, with the advent of half.com and online .pdfs being a common replacement for traditional books, coursebook sales have been down as well. Disappointing.

To keep the revenue flowing in, my bookstore would have special features such as a weekend sale or an author reading with free bagels and beverages to lure people in. We had a large customer base of professors because we stocked a lot of academic texts.

Also, many of the people that I spoke to were adamant about how much they liked the store and that the could have bought the book off of Amazon but would rather support a local business.

In addition, we sold used books as well, and the markups on those were much, much higher than on new releases or other titles bought from the publisher. Incidentals such as erasers, postcards, magnet sets, maps, Moleskines, etc also had a large profit margin.
posted by amicamentis at 9:01 PM on May 10

My favourite bookshop is doing well. According to a friend who works there, it's doing the best it has in years, recession or not.

General points in its favour:
- it doesn't attempt to cover every genre, eg it has no technical books and few business books
- the genres it does cover, it does excellently
- the owners have clearly paid as much attention as the big chains do to features of the store environment that make browsers buy - their merchandising is excellent
- for now at least they have a really good location, with a major bus stop immediately outside.

Many people agree with my assessment - this shop wins retail awards for retailers in general, not just bookshops, year after year.

Personally I shop there because:
- if I know the book I want, it is nice to be able to pop down in my lunch break and just buy it. In the genres I favour, the odds are good that they will have it. If they don't have it, they will probably have something just as good.
- if I want to browse aimlessly for just a book, any book, something interesting, you know, I feel I am more likely to have a serendipitous encounter in this intriguing physical space than online.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:03 PM on May 10

Yep, independent bookstores are shutting down left and right.

From an article my friend wrote on our local bookstores: why would you go to a local bookstore and browse around, taking advantage of the staff's time, without buying anything? are you saying that their time is not worth anything to you?

How about using an Amazon wishlist to keep track of the stuff you want and then buy it locally, or at least used? I suppose that it then turns into a "support the author and publisher" argument, but that's still cost-effective for you.

A lot of bookstores -- especially secondhand ones -- stay afloat with internet sales. Others go into textbook sales, gifts and other niche markets.

Please consider those options.
posted by Madamina at 9:50 PM on May 10

I'm in a unique situation because we have Amazon Prime and love buying online, but we also love shopping at B&M stores. In our reasonably small town, we have at least 2 locally owned book stores that we both frequent, but we also have a Borders and a Barnes and Noble, both of which get a fair amount of our money. Here are my reasons for purchasing what, where:

Borders:
-We have a Borders Membership thingee and will frequently get 40% off coupons, which I use to buy random new fiction (Recent purchase, "The Lie" by Chad Kultgen)
-Borders is the only place in town for Mrs. Thabombshelter to buy her monthly Sculpture Magazine.

Barnes and Noble:
-Browsing, buying random art books, buying random magazines, killing time

Amazon
-We use this primarily for sundry non-book items, but it's a great resource for keeping track of books I want to buy in the future. It's also a good resource for books that came out a few years back, but aren't really collectible ("Candyfreak" is a recent purchase that springs to mind)

Local Bookstores (Babbits Books and About Books)
-I collect editions of 1984 and Animal Farm, so I often pop in and check to see what they've got.
-Between the two of them, the used book selection is second to none. And they have prices to match.
-Incredible hard to find book selection and vintage magazines

Really, if we want a new book or a magazine, we go with Barnes and Noble or Borders or Amazon. If we want used or collectible, we go to local bookstores.

I'm also like Jaltcoh in that the feel of the books is very important, as is the condition and cover. Little things, but they can make a huge difference.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 10:10 PM on May 10

Amazon doesn't have a cat that I can pet.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 10:24 PM on May 10 [7 favorites]

I love going to Barnes and Noble, browsing for a stack of books, buying a hot chocolate and a little bundt cake at the inside Starbucks, then eating while reading a bit of each book and deciding which one(s) to take home. It makes me happy in a way a Kindle never will.
posted by davejay at 11:42 PM on May 10 [1 favorite]

I live in a non-English-speaking country, and it's often cheaper to buy a book in the (small) English section of a local bookstore than it is to order it online and pay for shipping.
posted by transporter accident amy at 12:19 AM on May 11

Sorry if that makes me nonrational.

If you don't love the bookstore experience, that's fine. But implying that those who do aren't "rational" is kind of jerky.

Absolutely, but it's rather rude to assume that those who won't are irrational.

I don't think the poster intended to be insulting, doubting others reasoning ability, but rather was speaking in the jargon of rational choice theory, where a so-called "rational actor" attempts to get the most useful products at the lowest price; if one looks at the book as the only product of the book-buying transaction, a "rational actor" would go to the supplier offering the book at the lowest price.

What people seem to be saying is that, while book shops may be more expensive than online retailers for the same book, the product is different because the purchasing experience is part of the product.

IMHO what we can learn here is it's a bit of an unwise choice to give your theory a name like "rationality" or "objectivism" or things like that which sound like criticisms of people who don't follow whatever your theory is.
posted by Mike1024 at 2:36 AM on May 11

Bookstores are closing down. My town has gone from having a couple of independent bookstores and a couple of second hand/antique stores, to have one high street chain, and even they are struggling. Until recently I bought and sold books, and the couple of booksellers I knew who had bricks and mortar stores weren't driven out of business due to lack of sales, they just saw no reason to continue owning a store with overheads. They were both online on ebay/marketplace/abebooks and spent all day sitting in their store listing books on their laptops. It got to the point for both that the footfall to the store was so meagre that they would be better off at home. They are both still making a living, purely on internet sales.

Ever since books were available for sale online, I've stopped buying books from bookstores.

Me too. Other than searching for emergency last minute gifts I haven't bought from a bookshop in around 9 years, until last week. I don't need to browse because amazon recommendations and related titles are far, far more useful. I don't need to touch books because I buy them for the content. I don't need to rush into town to get a book because I manage my reading list so that I have books arriving in the post at the right time, I'm never without something to read. Usually.

Last week I tried buy a new release book from Amazon but it was sold out. I hadn't envisaged there being a problem getting the book from Amazon and I was looking forward to reading it, so I headed into town. The book store was like a ghost town, even the shelves were bare. The selection was appalling compared to what I remember from days browsing the shelves as a teenager. They had one copy of the book I wanted (Amazon - £10.99, jacket price - £16.99) for £19.99. Not a pleasant experience and I won't be shedding a tear.
posted by fire&wings at 5:24 AM on May 11

I do some of my book purchases online, but quite a few at brick-and-mortar stores too.

Two reasons: first is the browsing/impulse buy factor. I was in Toronto a few years ago and walked by the "World's Largest Bookstore." (Whether it is or not, I don't know, but that's what it called itself, and was certainly larger than any other bookstore I've been in.) I didn't plan on buying anything going in; I just wanted to see the "World's Largest Bookstore." When I walked out, I had six new books.

Second is instant gratification: when I have a specific book in mind, sometimes I'm willing to wait a few days or a week for a book, and then I'll sometimes order it online, but sometimes I want the book now. (Note: assuming Mike1024 is correct in interpreting your "rational" in the economic sense, this can be a rational reason for shopping at a brick-and-mortar store.) Delmoi mentions ordering a mini-tripod using Amazon Prime and having it in two days, which is fine if you can wait two days, but sometimes you're leaving on vacation in two hours and realize you never bought that mini-tripod that you'll want on your vacation. Also, a great feature for us instant-gratification types, Borders' website can tell you which of their brick-and-mortar stores has a given title in stock. Since I have five or six Borders within a half-hour drive, it's great to be able to check their website first to see which store to go to.

Finally (three! the three reasons I shop at brick-and-mortar bookstores are...) Amazon's stock is huge, but not infinite. I still sometimes come across "this item ships in four to six weeks from Amazon..." or "this item is currently out of stock" for some items, and as the sort of person who starts Christmas shopping around December 15, that'll send me next to a couple of other online sites, and if none of those can get it to me in time, then it's off again to Borders' website to see whether any of their local stores have it in stock.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:34 AM on May 11

Just to throw further support. I hate browsing on Amazon, as I feel it's much more restrictive than just scanning a shelf of books or displays. I generally only order online when I don't think I can find it at the nearby B&N. I've worked in two different bookstores, so I may be bias, but I also like to pick up the copy I want, examine it for any problems, and even scan the pages in person. I can read things much easier in hand, than on my computer screen.

Also, as mentioned, free two day shipping doesn't beat ten minutes to the bookstore, five minutes to get the book and check out, and ten minutes to drive back home.

Some folks may not like using libraries, for a variety of purposes. From not being able to get a book (already checked out) to not knowing who last had the book, and what condition it was returned to the library in.
posted by Atreides at 5:49 AM on May 11

I was in Toronto a few years ago and walked by the "World's Largest Bookstore."

I should do fact-checking before posting: Google tells me the store was called "World's Biggest Bookstore," not "Largest."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:05 AM on May 11

From an article my friend wrote on our local bookstores: why would you go to a local bookstore and browse around, taking advantage of the staff's time, without buying anything? are you saying that their time is not worth anything to you?

Please don't make this argument. This is an argument that kills bookstores.

The bookstores that are staying alive and even thriving are stores that manage to be inviting spaces for their customers. People want to go there because they enjoy being there. Sometimes when they go there they browse and buy nothing, and sometimes they see something they want and buy it. The most important part of that equation is that people feel good about going there. If they don't feel good about being there, they will never go at all, and they will never have an opportunity to buy anything. So if people feel bad about browsing and buying nothing, the store dies. You cannot guilt people into buying things that they don't want or need. What you can do is make bookstores into anxiety-producing, guilt-associated places, and that will drive people away.

I worked in an independent bookstore in the mid-'90s, when bookstores first really started falling to the big chains. The bookstores that tried the guilt thing failed. The (few) bookstores that succeeded were ones that stopped attacking their customers for wanting cheap books and instead focused on providing something that Borders and Barnes and Noble couldn't provide. And browsing has always been an integral part of the bookstore experience, then and now. Bookstore customers should never, ever feel guilty about browsing, unless they're coming in five minutes before closing and expecting the staff to stay a half an hour late.
posted by craichead at 7:12 AM on May 11 [5 favorites]

I love bookstores, and worked in bookstores for years, including owning one for a while. Big-box bookstores like Borders put a lot of independents out of business. Amazon and other online book sources are putting brick-n-mortar booksellers out of business, including Borders.

When I want a specific book, I might need it right away, so I go to a bookstore. If I need a specific book for next month's book group, I look for a used copy online. When I want to hang out near smart interesting people, I head for a bookstore that has a coffeeshop, and I hang out, browse, and buy books.

It's not just bookstores. There are far fewer independent hardware stores, lumberyards, diners, etc. It's all becoming corporatized. It's a huge change in the way we live.
posted by theora55 at 7:22 AM on May 11

From an article my friend wrote on our local bookstores: why would you go to a local bookstore and browse around, taking advantage of the staff's time, without buying anything? are you saying that their time is not worth anything to you?

This attitude makes me more reluctant to patronize small local businesses.
posted by grouse at 7:40 AM on May 11 [2 favorites]

My small, yet growing city has a Barnes and Noble that is thriving. It's almost a social gathering place - you run into friends there, sip coffee, and hang out.

A lot of people have made great points about browsing and enjoying the bookstore feel, which I agree with. Some things that I haven't seen mentioned:

-Art books. You can't gauge the quality of an art or photography book online. I'll look through the ones at B&N and see if the printed work is worth my money. Sometimes they are shrink-wrapped, but B&N often has an open sample there for you to look through. The one photography book I bought off of Amazon was so disappointing, I'm certain that if I had seen it in person first, I would not have bought it even though it was on a topic I really appreciated.

-A robust local interest section. My B&N has a local interest section which has a lot of locally-produced content. It's really fun. Amazon can't really provide that for me.

I also agree that there is a huge difference between browsing a book cover to cover and the Amazon "look inside" feature. I find this is especially true for graphic design books. I will see one on Amazon and think it looks great, then I go to B&N and look through it and decide that it's a whole lot of nothing.
posted by bristolcat at 7:51 AM on May 11

I like to take my kids to the brick-and-mortar bookstore. They're 7 and 5 and 1, so while I do order stuff for them on-line, browsing in person is much better for them. Our local B&N has a great kids' section with tables and chairs where the kids can sit down with their books and look through them at their leisure, and helpful and knowledgeable staff who take the kids' questions seriously. Once we've decided what to buy, we go to the cafe for coffee (me) and milk steamers (them), where the kids are being acculturated to the pleasures of lounging in cafes while reading.
posted by not that girl at 8:20 AM on May 11

1 - they are suffering
2- isn't a library really the most "rational" of all? and they've been around even longer...
3 - according to This, the percentage of adult americans connected to the internet is only 73% to start with, and it puts "deep users" at 8% (though I'm not sure what that means exactly).

It may be that those 27%+ who aren't/ don't do much online are also not the sort to buy books very often anyway, although they want to pick up a new cookbook or "X for dummies" or spy novel for the plane, they need a real bookstore to go to... But it's also perfectly believable that people who spend time online are the ones who don't buy as many books, and the ones who want actual copies of plato instead of a web-page to peruse, are also the ones who want actual environments to wander through and hard bound copies to browse through, rather than links to click. So bookstores may be less necessary than they used to be, but it's not surprising there are still some left.

(I am lazy and mostly use amazon, but I still like bookstores better)
posted by mdn at 8:41 AM on May 11

The instant gratification reason to shop in a brick and mortar store doesn't really work for me personally. By the time I arrange a time that I can get into the car and drive out to the 'burbs to a mall and stop at Borders or B&N to buy a book that may or may not be there, I could have gotten that book shipped to my office for free. And I hate leaving the city to drive out to the suburbs.
posted by octothorpe at 9:42 AM on May 11

I apologize for using the "rational" adjective. That was a loaded word. I wasn't trying to be rude or suggesting people didn't have valid reasons to buy from stores.

Thanks for all the responses about your various book buying experiences.
posted by abdulf at 11:37 AM on May 11

why would you go to a local bookstore and browse around, taking advantage of the staff's time, without buying anything? are you saying that their time is not worth anything to you?

Late to this, but in addition to all the great reasons upthread for shopping at a brick-and-mortar place, I'd like to chime in as a former bookstore worker: customers who browse did not generally "take up my time." Since the point of me being there was to assist customers, having someone ask me questions allowed me to do the most important part of my job. And if the customer was just sunk deep in whatever section, happily browsing and making their own decisions, this also was not a "waste" of my time. Most bookstore employees can shelve and talk at the same time.

And I hate leaving the city to drive out to the suburbs.

No bookstores in your city? That's sad. I'm so sorry.
posted by rtha at 12:30 PM on May 11 [2 favorites]

I'd rather buy a book in real life any day of the week. I want instant gratification AND I want to be able to browse through it in some cases before I decide to buy it. Amazon's "only some of the books are browsable, and only some of the sections of those are browsable, and not more than 3 pages at a time, and you hit the untold limit" crap doesn't always help me figure out if I want the book or not. Yes, Amazon has better selection, but I still have to wait for the books to show up, hope they don't unexpectedly ship via UPS rather than USPS and lose my package, etc. I don't order off Amazon unless I really need/want the book, and need/want enough books to get the free shipping, and I can't get it in any way in person in my half of the state.

That said, I do go to Borders more than I do the local indies. Yes, I know that's bad, but dammit, even Borders with crappy selection still has more on some topics than the indie non-used-bookstore does, and it's closer to my work for lunchtime browsing. I will miss it when it's gone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:10 PM on May 11

Even though I rarely actually buy books (or magazines) at the local big box bookstores, I'd be devastated if both of them closed down. There's nothing better than strolling through one and browsing. Well, as long as the music's not distracting (!), as discussed in this thread on what makes a good bookstore.

Either the people who work in these stores are oblivious to the idea of "reading music," or they actually want to discourage us from sitting around and reading books we end up not paying for. Wait, maybe there's something to that. That would also explain where all the chairs are going.

I kinda wonder though... if bookstores charged a nominal "entry fee," would it discourage your habit of visiting them? Not me. But even if they're hurting, most patrons would probably be turned off by big corporations playing the sympathy card.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 2:56 AM on May 12

Living in Portland I find myself in Powells--the actual building(s) not the website--at least once a month. There's a huge difference between browsing a bookstore and buying books. I find that when I visit Powells in person I'll buy things that I wasn't looking for or didn't even know existed, but when I visit them (or Amazon) online I'm always looking to buy a specific book.
posted by togdon at 8:22 AM on May 12

From an article my friend wrote on our local bookstores: why would you go to a local bookstore and browse around, taking advantage of the staff's time, without buying anything? are you saying that their time is not worth anything to you?

Others have already commented, but I have to say I think this statement is a very good encapsulation of what is wrong with many local independent bookstores (and hobby shops and pet shops and so on).

There's nothing worse than walking into a shop and feeling like the proprietor is staring at you and looking at his watch, wondering why you're taking advantage of his time. It makes the atmosphere oppressive and it makes me go home and shop online.

Smart retailers know that comfortable, happy browsers make good customers, maybe not immediately but eventually. That's why Barnes & Noble has a coffee shop and tables and benches and comfortable chairs. All of these are things they could eliminate and greatly reduce customers "taking advantage of the staff's time" but that's not how you sell books.

Smart local shops are the same way, with chairs and employees that will gladly have a casual chat and don't mind if you just look around or play with their cat.

I'm spending my time just as much as the staff is, and if I walk out without buying anything there's a good chance the store has done something wrong. Maybe they didn't have what I want, maybe their price is ridiculous, and maybe the staff's "you're wasting our time" attitude makes me hate them.

There are also local shops that are so friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful that it makes me want to give them money, even if their prices aren't as good as online. Those are the ones that will survive, hopefully. Good riddance to the rest.
posted by mmoncur at 7:35 PM on May 12 [3 favorites]

rtha, that's my point -- that's your job, and the way you describe it is exactly how it should be.

What I'm talking about is people who take advantage of your expertise and effort and then don't back it up with a purchase. Yes, I browse and don't buy stuff sometimes, but I also tend to do that with the intention of buying something from that store later, because I appreciate all of the great service, knowledge and comfort they provide. I also like knowing that one of the reasons the prices at an independent bookstore may be higher/less discounted is because the store tries to provide a good wage and benefit system for its employees. Which larger stores can certainly do, but Amazon doesn't necessarily worry about as much.

So please don't misunderstand me there; though I've certainly known my share of smarmy knowitalls in bookstores -- as in any retail outlet, small or large -- I just wish that the folks who have to work extra hard for the business they get don't have to see the results of their efforts help out their biggest competitors.
posted by Madamina at 9:39 AM on May 14

What I'm talking about is people who take advantage of your expertise and effort and then don't back it up with a purchase.

One of the things I really like about shopping at Borders, Barnes and Noble, and online is not worrying about people judging me for deciding not to make a purchase for any reason. It's one of the reasons I go into the several independent bookstores in my neighborhood less often than I might otherwise. In my determination to avoid annoyance I hardly ever go in without the specific intention to buy something, and when I've preplanned that much it's usually easier just to buy from Amazon anyway. So no impulse or serendipitous purchases from me.

As craichead alluded to, this is a fairly poisonous attitude for a retail business, but I don't for a minute think that Madamina is the only one who has it.
posted by grouse at 10:05 PM on May 14