Comments on: you, you, you?

Question: you, you, you?

mustcatchmooseandsquirrel — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:48:40 -0800

In a languages that uses both the formal and informal "you," is there any situation in which people using the informal "you" with each other would ever go back to regularly using the formal "you" with each other?

Using French as the example: For instance, if two people got divorced and were on chilly terms with each other, would they stop being "tu" and go to "vous". Or, if between two people working together, one got promoted to a position of authority?

By: KokuRyu

KokuRyu — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:54:25 -0800

In Japanese, a husband and wife, for example, will alter their "register" (the kinds of words they use) according to context, and we do the same in English. Consider the kind of speech you might use with a workmate when preparing a project, versus when both of you present the final product to your boss or the client.

In Japanese, you change how you say "you" in these different contexts.

By: prefpara

prefpara — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:54:55 -0800

Absolutely. If you have a flair for the dramatic and you've ended a love affair, it'll really add some salt to the wound to switch to the formal form.

By: peacheater

peacheater — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:58:02 -0800

Oh definitely, at least in the case of Tamil and Hindi speakers. A change to a more formal form of address is a way of signifying increased distance from a person.

By: nasreddin

nasreddin — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:59:10 -0800

I don't know. Thinking about the Russian case, doing what prefpara says would be unbearably pompous, like you're trying to imitate a 19th century novel or something. I can't think of any other case where you would do that. (It's part of what makes the stage of your relationship with someone when you start using the informal form so momentous.)

By: ijsbrand

ijsbrand — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:03:37 -0800

I have had to interview friends for newspaper pieces, and automatically choose to vousvoyer them -- as if to underline we were talking professionally, and weren't chitchatting anymore.

By: smorange

smorange — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:08:44 -0800

Yes. Korean is similar to Japanese, as KokuRyu describes it. Age is the most important factor that affects your language in Korean. However, other factors and situations play into it as well. Your work example is a good one.

By: small_ruminant

small_ruminant — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:24:25 -0800

When I was taking Russian and would mess up and use the formal my teacher would start yelling "Have you quarrelled?! Have you quarrelled?!" (in English). This leads me to believe you could switch back if you were angry at somone.

Also, like ljsbrand mentioned, you'd use it in formal situations, like a board meeting, even if you were buddies in the off hours.

caveat: My information may be out of date.

By: foxy_hedgehog

foxy_hedgehog — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:36:56 -0800

What Prefpara said. In my old building in Berlin, the landlord was sort of eccentric and lonely and, I think, saw his younger tenants as part of his extended family. After living in the building for several years, my neighbors told him they were looking for a new place and he immediately switched back to calling them "Sie" -- this after calling them "du" for more or less their entire relationship. It's a very dramatic and pointed gesture, but it is done.

By: halogen

halogen — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:40:43 -0800

I'm Bulgarian, and we differentiate between formal you ("вие") and informal you ("ти"). I can't really think of many situations where you'd permanently go back to using the formal version for someone with whom you are on friendly terms.

One of my former high-school teachers is a long-time family friend; I've known her since I was a toddler, and of course addressed her with the informal "you" since our families spent so much time together. In the classroom, however, and in front of classmates, I always addressed her with the polite, formal "you". To this day, I feel a bit uncomfortable addressing her with the informal "you" (she insists I do so), so whenever she is around, I carefully construct my sentences in order to avoid this conflict (i.e. "Can I offer some coffee?" as opposed to "Would you like some coffee?"). It's awkward and it never fails to make me miserable.

A classroom setting, and as small_ruminant mentioned above, other situations may warrant demonstrating your respect for that person to third parties, but in Bulgaria that'd be it. I have never heard of a situation where being upset or angry with someone would cause you to address them more politely.

Also, occasionally kids will use the polite form when playing, as in pretending to be hosting a fancy tea party. I don't know if knowing this is at all helpful to you, but then again you don't tell us why you need to know.

By: nasreddin

nasreddin — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:11:06 -0800

I agree with halogen, actually. In formal settings (for instance, a court hearing) or other situations where the abstract social relationship between people must take precedence over their personal relationship, you'd often switch back to the informal version.

By: Wilder

Wilder — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:16:41 -0800

A professor I had invited me to use Tu when I visited his home and his wife cooked me a meal. But back on Campus I unhesitatingly used Usted, although whenever I met him informally, supermarket, a local restaurant, the bus stop, it was obvious from the first invitation that I could use tu. We never had to speak about it, it was what was appropriate.

With friends and lovers it would have signalled real anger to switch back to the formal for any reason, I can't imagine being that pissed off with an Ex. (In languages with a formal that is!)

By: nasreddin

nasreddin — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:18:05 -0800

I suspect that the usage here might be significantly dependent on cultural factors. In Russia (and I imagine in other Eastern European countries as well) people are less readily willing to start using the informal form in the first place, due in large part to the fact that the gulf between the intimate world and the public world is so vast--so they would also be less willing to abandon it. This is all conjecture, though.

By: jedrek

jedrek — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:58:30 -0800

Halogen's situation applies to Polish as well.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:13:12 -0800

My (now ex) wife would use vous when she was being playfully bitchy with me. I could see going formal for humorous reasons, like how I might refer to my friend Pete as "Mr. Rickenbacher" or my wife as "Mrs. Moonpie," you know, being artifically formal as a mild joke. Regularly, though? Yeah, that'd be pretty chilly, but folks can get pretty chilly, at times.

By: TheRaven

TheRaven — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:21:14 -0800

In French and Spanish, parents occasionally use the formal you with their children to express their annoyance with them.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:01:57 -0800

In French and Spanish, parents occasionally use the formal you with their children to express their annoyance with them.

Yes, this. I think the closest US English equivalent is calling your child by their full name, including middle name, to express annoyance. When my parents broke out the "Sidhedevil Hepzibah Awesome-Sauce" I knew I was in big trouble.

By: No-sword

No-sword — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:06:13 -0800

What small_ruminant says applies to Japanese too. Switching from casual to polite verb forms is an excellent way to show distance = coldness = (controlled) anger or contempt, although in literature, on TV, etc. this tactic is more commonly assigned to women (for use on their romantic partners) than men, for various sociosexual reasons.

By: munichmaiden

munichmaiden — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:07:01 -0800

In Germany, I've heard of coworkers who are friends using the Sie (formal) at work and du (informal) at after-work drinks. So, formal/professional setting vs. informal/casual setting seems to be as important as the closeness of the relationship.

By: gmarceau

gmarceau — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:35:06 -0800

In Quebec we have shifted away from the formal usage and now "tu" is the common form of address, even between a student and his teacher, a boss and his employee, and perhaps even between a client and his bank manager. The formal "vous" is reserved for strangers, and only when there is no intent of forming any relationship, such as with the bank teller. You could even tutoiyer your barrister, if you wanted.

Going back to the formal with a friend would mean "I don't know you, I'm not going to acknowledge our mutual past, and I don't want to have anything to do with you". It would be the language-register equivalent of a restraining order. You would have to be beyond angry.

By: lenny70

lenny70 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:44:23 -0800

Farsi: when we talk with our parents, my sister and I frequently switch between شما (formal) and تو (informal).

By: drdanger

drdanger — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:11:28 -0800

Close friends would switch to the formal "you" if they both joined the military.

By: philomathoholic

philomathoholic — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:39:22 -0800

drdanger: "Close friends would switch to the formal "you" if they both joined the military."

For which language?

By: nzydarkxj

nzydarkxj — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:24:05 -0800

If a boy and girl were part of the same social circle they'd probably speak to each other with "tu" (Spanish), but in some areas, Usted is used among boyfriend/girlfriend etc... so potentially if say the boy starts to try and hit on the girl or they are starting a relationship they might move up from tu to Usted.

This is not the case in all Spanish speaking places as, like others mentioned, it varies. (One interesting example I remember from class about tu/ud in Spanish was to ask speakers from different places in which they would speak to an intruder in their house. Some would think Ud to kind of suggest a distance between the two, and the others would use tu in more of a way that it was less respectful)

This seems obvious so maybe I missed it, but what about a passage of time. Close friends now drifted apart?

By: dnial

dnial — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 04:22:25 -0800

I pretty much doubt it's really happening often in an informal context, but in Austria politicians have even "withdrawn" their "du" in public (like young nazifan Strache to old nazifan Haider in a TV confrontation).

By: geckoinpdx

geckoinpdx — Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:29:49 -0800

Echoing a few previous points:

My Bavarian coworker and I use du on a regular basis when we're around the water cooler or chatting in the hallway, but it's always sie when we're on a conference call.

My boy (who has firmly resisted any attempt at learning German but still wants me to speak it to him) knows enough to know the difference between du and Sie. When he hears Sie, he knows he screwed up.

It's not even really a conscious decision, I just don't refer in the informal to someone I'm angry with.

And when I address him in (my admittedly terrible) French as vous and we're alone, he knows I'm really pissed.

By: drdanger

drdanger — Mon, 11 May 2009 21:54:50 -0800

drdanger: "Close friends would switch to the formal "you" if they both joined the military."
philomathoholic: "For which language?"

German, certainly, maybe others---anyone know?