eBay and counterfeit goods.

April 26, 2009 5:14 PM

Should I send my counterfeit goods back?

About a month ago, I bought something on eBay because the price seemed too good to be true. Which, of course, it turned out to be. Shortly after "winning" the item, I was notified by eBay that the item I had purchased was "under investigation", which along with the fact that my auction was never listed under "my eBay" as having been won, indicated to me that I was probably buying something counterfeit. I paid with PayPal, so I opened up a dispute with them so I could get my money back, since I was pretty sure that I wasn't going to get the item for which I had paid. We went back and forth a bit, during which time I attempted to contact the seller with no luck, but ultimately, I got my money refunded. End of story, or so I thought.

About two weeks after all that, I got a package in the mail from China, containing the item that I had purchased - and, sure enough, one simple glance confirmed that it was counterfeit. I figured, whatever - I got my money back, PayPal considers the matter closed, chalk this one up to experience and move on. I reported the item as being counterfeit to the makers of the real item, and went on with my life.

Fast forward to today. I get an email from the seller which says:

"dear friend:

i am sorry to trouble you.the money have been return to your paypal account. if you receive the items and you like the items.could you pay the money to me again? If you no like please return the items to me."

The fishy thing is, the name on the email matches the seller's name, but the email account is totally different. What is my obligation here? I still have the item, but since what I received is not what I paid for (the ebay ad claimed that it was a genuine item, and it clearly is not), do I still have to return it? I'd just as soon throw the thing away and forget all about it, but I want to make sure that there is no recourse for the seller here if I ignore the email that was sent to me.

It should be noted here that I understand that a line on an eBay sales item screen is by no means a guarantee. I'm not upset, I don't feel like I was taken advantage of, I just want to know how much attention I need to pay to the person that wants me to send back their cheap knockoff goods.

posted by pdb to shopping (33 comments total)

If they sold it as genuine knowing it was a knockoff, they were clearly violating the ebay terms of service and acting in bad faith. You don't have to return the item, but if you are feeling generous you can send it back to them. What was the item by the way?
posted by ladypants at 5:30 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]

I think you should send it back. That's usually the way refunds work.

Although illegal, and this has no bearing on your case, many sellers make a career selling counterfeit items to people who want counterfeit goods, on a "nudge nudge" basis. The item is never described as a copy or a fake (eBay would pull it) but through various terms, insinuations and above all riduculously low prices, both the buyer and seller are aware of exactly what is going on and both are happy. It's completely wrong, but I'd bet the majority are not actually being conned.

If you don't have proof of postage of having returned the item to him I believe you will be in bother with Paypal and eBay if he decides to take this further.
posted by fire&wings at 5:37 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]

My initial reaction was to tell them to refund the time you spent on this issue plus the shipping to china if they really want it, but that's probably not the smartest idea. I, too, am curious about the item.
posted by Lullen at 5:37 PM on April 26

How did they send it? Did you have to sign for it? Why did you receive it? You could have taken it back to (insert delivery service here) and refused package. By opening it, it's a different.

If someone sends you something you didn't order, you have the right to keep it without paying. But you did order, and then things got hairy. When you received the package, and you saw it was from China and you weren't expecting any other packages from China and you knew it was from the seller, you made the choice to open it. Now, I believe, you have to deal with it. I think you are in a moral dilemma, not a legal.

IMNAL, YMMV.
posted by 6:1 at 5:40 PM on April 26

I wouldn't pay postage.
posted by jeffamaphone at 5:52 PM on April 26

I personally would try to contact the rightful manufacturer (i.e. the company being ripped off) and see if they want it. Fake smoke alarms, flamable brake pads, false UL safety marks, where does it end?
posted by txvtchick at 6:00 PM on April 26

If they're willing to pay return shipping, and you don't particularly want the item, then go ahead and return it. But it's pretty clear that you were the victim of a fraud, and you have no ethical obligation to the seller, who will probably then try to sell the counterfeit item again as the real thing.

I wouldn't return it. If I didn't want it I would throw it away. Anything else incentives fraud.
posted by fatbird at 6:04 PM on April 26

It would have been 'end of story', as you put it, if you had just refused the package instead of accepting it and opening it. It is your curiosity that has got you into this bind.

Although I suspect this wasn't the answer you were wanting, or expecting to hear.... I agree with both fire&wings and 6:1 - send it back.
posted by ryanbryan at 6:08 PM on April 26

If you ordered a $0.05 chocolate cake, and it turned out to be poop, it's not your fault for opening the box - it's the fault of whomever sold you the mislabeled poop-cake. It's not Schrödinger's cat - opening the box did not magically turn the chocolate into poop.
posted by ladypants at 6:16 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]

I say don't send it back--it will be resold to another unsuspecting person. Plus, there's no way you should be responsible for postage, curious or not. Trash it after destroying it enough that it wouldn't be usable to a dumpster diver, and be done with it.
posted by jtfowl0 at 6:17 PM on April 26

I am not a lawyer, but I would make a best effort to turn this item over to whatever investigating authority will take it. If the item is a knockoff, but is labeled as the real thing, is there any risk that you might be supplying counterfeit goods to a party in another country who intends to profit on them? I don't know. If you really, really want to be sure contact a lawyer.
posted by Science! at 6:21 PM on April 26

For all we know, the package was delivered to the OP while s/he was not at home, or someone else signed for it without realizing what it was, or the OP was expecting multiple packages from China and didn't realize this was the dodgy one until s/he opened it, etc.
posted by DavidNYC at 6:26 PM on April 26

it will be resold to another unsuspecting person

As outlined in my post, I believe you're mistaken.
posted by fire&wings at 6:34 PM on April 26

You aren't responsible for the postage for mailing a counterfeit item to China, even if you got your money back. If the seller is willing to pay postage, that's another matter--I would probably return it if the seller sent prepaid postage, but I can see the arguments for sending it to the actual license-holder of the goods counterfeited instead.

If you don't have proof of postage of having returned the item to him I believe you will be in bother with Paypal and eBay if he decides to take this further.

Not a chance. Sellers of counterfeit goods whose auctions have been voided aren't in a position to dicker with eBay (which owns PayPal).
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:47 PM on April 26

Can you wrap it back up and 'return to sender'? Not sure if that would work internationally, but theoretically it would get the package off your hands and you wouldn't have to pay return postage for a fraudulent item.
posted by Space Kitty at 6:50 PM on April 26

So keeping something you didn't pay for, and have no entitlement to keep is suddenly ok?

The same people that moan about counterfeit goods, are often the same people who will in the next breath turn around and download the latest episode of [insert popular tv show here] through their torrent client.

The internet is a minefield of legal and moral dilemmas, and in this case, two wrongs does not a right make. Where there are people wanting to buy counterfeit goods, there will be always willing sellers. Your keeping of the good will neither ensure the vendor stops selling, nor see them be prosecuted.
posted by ryanbryan at 6:51 PM on April 26

We simply don't know that the OP's "curiosity" had anything to do with the present situation.

Anyhow, as a purely legal matter, I tend to doubt the seller has any right to possess an illegally-produced good such as a counterfeit item. When the government, for instance, seizes counterfeit goods, the producer can't ask for them back, and the gov't will often just destroy them (example). On the flipside, the purchaser probably doesn't have any right to possess the good, either. The best approach might be to ask eBay what to do, or turn the item over to US Customs.

I'm not the OP's or anyone else's lawyer.
posted by DavidNYC at 7:04 PM on April 26

Not a chance. Sellers of counterfeit goods whose auctions have been voided aren't in a position to dicker with eBay (which owns PayPal).

Was the auction voided? If so then you are correct that the seller hasn't a comeback. If it wasn't then if he launches a complaint the OP is in trouble regardless of how obviously fake the item is (and I know how blinkered eBay are.)

Really, the bottom line is that the item should be returned. Surface mail, whatever.

"I'm not upset, I don't feel like I was taken advantage of.."

Return the item. You are absolutely not dealing a blow to the counterfeit industry by keeping it, rather dealing a blow to some guy trying to feed his kids, who is likely dealing with most clued-in customers on a level playing field.

And to reiterate, unless eBay wiped the listing there is absolutely a comeback, it will involve eBay drones utterly deaf to any claims of counterfeit goods or anything else, and they will give him his money back unless you can provide tracking codes proving you shipped the item to him. It's nothing to do with legality, lawyers, customs or anything else, if the auction still stands eBay and Paypal will give him his money back.
posted by fire&wings at 7:07 PM on April 26

Was the auction voided? If so then you are correct that the seller hasn't a comeback.

Have you ever tried to get money back from PayPal? The onus is always on the buyer in these cases, in my experience--they have a real caveat emptor policy, so if the OP got money back, the seller would almost certainly have had to be held at fault.

So keeping something you didn't pay for, and have no entitlement to keep is suddenly ok?

No, but someone who sold counterfeit goods isn't entitled to have the ripped-off buyer pay to have them shipped back to him in China. The refund didn't cover the cost of mailing the thing back to China, so the ripped-off buyer would be in the hole for the cost of postage--the refund only covered the price of the item and the postage from China to where the ripped-off buyer was.

If the seller sent payment for the postage, that would be a different issue.

The same people that moan about counterfeit goods, are often the same people who will in the next breath turn around and download the latest episode of [insert popular tv show here] through their torrent client.

I am famous/infamous here for being a shark on IP infringement, so I don't feel hypocritical at all.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:20 PM on April 26

I'm really confused about all the people who think that the OP should (morally) pay out of pocket to mail back the counterfeit whatever-it-is back to China. If I buy what is advertised as a Schmoe Brand Thingie, then it turns out not to be a Schmoe Brand Thingie but a bad fake, and I get my money back, I'm whole and the seller is out a fake Schmoe--which seems like an appropriate result of defrauding people by selling faux-Schmoes.

Why would the onus be on me to send the fake Schmoe back to China? Then I'm down the cost of postage, not whole. It's cost me several dollars, at least, to get ripped off--where's the justice in that?

If the seller wants the faux-Schmoe back, the seller should pay the return postage.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:24 PM on April 26

Have you ever tried to get money back from PayPal? The onus is always on the buyer in these cases, in my experience--they have a real caveat emptor policy, so if the OP got money back, the seller would almost certainly have had to be held at fault.

I have, and Paypal will side immediately with the buyer in almost every situation, but if the seller has refunded the cash through the proper channels without receiving the item back, then he holds all the power. Paypal - rightly - believe that if the money is refunded then the item should be returned. I've no idea how savvy the seller is in this case but if he chooses to he can take the money right back if the purchased doesn't have proof he returned the item. I guess it all hinges on whether the auction was allowed to stand or not after the investigation. eBay investigations are not like normal investigations, I know that much. The counterfeit item won't be deemed counterfeit in their opinion on the say-so of a buyer.

I'm really confused about all the people who think that the OP should (morally) pay out of pocket to mail back the counterfeit whatever-it-is back to China. If I buy what is advertised as a Schmoe Brand Thingie, then it turns out not to be a Schmoe Brand Thingie but a bad fake, and I get my money back, I'm whole and the seller is out a fake Schmoe--which seems like an appropriate result of defrauding people by selling faux-Schmoes.

What kind of person thinks they can get a Burberry coat for $50 or a Louis Vuitton handbag for $70? They should chalk up their greed to naivete and move on.
posted by fire&wings at 7:34 PM on April 26

*purchaser
posted by fire&wings at 7:34 PM on April 26

So keeping something you didn't pay for, and have no entitlement to keep is suddenly ok?

In point of fact, yes, legally. This is to avoid the scam where a company sends something without solicitation or an agreement to purchase, and then bills you for it if you don't send it back. Legally, it's well established that you're under no obligation to return or pay for unsolicited goods, and the OP said that it was definitely unsolicited in light of the original auction being cancelled and his money refunded.

I think the moral line follows the legal line here. Don't moan about a poor counterfeit seller in China trying to feed his kids--the item obviously isn't expensive enough to be careful with the bookkeeping on which orders are still good. And it's likely that the seller sent the item on, knowing the auction was cancelled and money refunded, on the expectation that a soft-hearted purchaser would then be open to begging for payment for an unsolicited item. The dilemma the OP is in now is just an extension of the original scam.
posted by fatbird at 8:42 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]

The goods were not unsolicited. Case closed.
posted by ryanbryan at 8:51 PM on April 26

A few follow on details:

The item in question was a pair of Oakley sunglasses. I did have to sign for the package, and I did so knowing it was going to contain something that was probably fraudulent. I don't feel "entitled" to keep the item - my question was more "should I send it back or should I throw it away?"

It was my belief from the eBay auction that the item was genuine - as evidenced by the language "You are bidding on an authentic pair of Oakley sunglasses" on the eBay page. Was I being naive? Yup. Do I now feel morally outraged? Nope. I rolled the dice, and I lost.

It was a Buy It Now, so I'm not sure if it was "voided" or not (I don't use eBay enough to know what that means as regards what happened to me), but within 10 minutes of me sending payment, it was flagged as pending an investigation, and no history of the item appears on my eBay history or anything at this point, so maybe it was voided.

Your keeping of the good will neither ensure the vendor stops selling, nor see them be prosecuted.

Again, I'm not looking to keep the item - and I'm not trying to strike a blow against counterfeiters, either. I'm just wondering, will eBay/PayPal try to get money from me again or can/should I safely throw the things out?
posted by pdb at 9:26 PM on April 26

Now you're asking about a very specific contract matter. Consult a qualified attorney.
posted by Science! at 9:34 PM on April 26

I'm no expert, but if I were you, I would probably just hold on to them for a while until I knew for certain that the whole thing had blown over. Why pay money to an attorney over something like this?
posted by nel at 9:42 PM on April 26

The goods were not unsolicited. Case closed.

Within ten minutes of payment being made, the entire transaction was flagged and suspended by ebay. Unless the seller immediately printed off a shipping label and threw it on the mail truck as it pulled away, then it was sent after the sale had been aborted.
posted by fatbird at 10:05 PM on April 26

No seller of counterfeit merchandise is going to open or pursue a legal case against you, or attempt to use eBay or Paypal against you. They don't want that attention.

I have bought a couple of counterfeit things like that from eBay, expecting they were counterfeit. Sometimes they are seized by customs and the seller sends another one. Or three more. Until one gets through. They would like to be paid, but they won't open complaints.

They cost three cents, after all.

Keep it and forget about it. Don't answer the e-mails.
posted by rokusan at 10:55 PM on April 26

Consult a qualified attorney.

Yeah great advice.

"Hi, I bought $300 sunnies for $10. Should i keep em?"

Yes/no/maybe. That'll be $1000 thanks".

I wouldn't worry about any legal repercussions of this whatsoever. Keep the sunnies if you want to, you'll have to watch out for cataracts due to lack of UV protection.
posted by wilful at 1:00 AM on April 27

This happened to me during spring of last year with a pair of Yves St. Laurent frames, although the price was consistent with what they cost retail so I had no clue that they'd be counterfeit. The only reason I ordered them from eBay was because they were discontinued and I thought I'd found some remainder stock. Anyway, though I'd followed their dispute process diligently, both eBay and Paypal couldn't give two shits. They made me jump through hoops to file a claim, canceled the auction as if it never happened (so I couldn't warn any other potential buyers in the seller's feedback), and took their sweet time giving me a refund. Ultimately I had to ask my credit card company to do a chargeback and that magically stimulated eBay/PayPal to issue my refund.

The seller pestered me to send the phony frames back for a couple of weeks until I finally just blocked her email. At first I told her I'd be happy to drop them at the post office if she'd PayPal me the postage amount (she was in the UK), but she didn't like that idea and told me to send it back at my expense and she would PayPal me for the postage after the package arrived. Yeah, right. I told her to get stuffed and still have the frames. I don't want them, but I can't bring myself to throw them away. No one, outside of the seller during that two week period, ever contacted me about sending them back.

Don't worry. PayPal and eBay won't come after you later. They don't give a rat's ass about counterfeiting or you -- it's all just lip service -- they just care about getting their money. The person who sold me the fake frames is still a PowerSeller on eBay with excellent feedback; probably because any buyer who complains simply gets their auction canceled. She makes them plenty of money, like the thousands of other counterfeiters on the site, so eBay and PayPal will continue to turn a blind eye.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 1:08 AM on April 27 [1 favorite]

Initially I'd be in the "trash it" camp. However if you think that this would be morally or ethically wrong I guess you could contact someone like [this] and advise the seller you will return the items if they are not needed for evidence and providing they send you postage cost and materials.
posted by syntheticfaith at 5:32 AM on April 27

When this happened to me (received a counterfeit DVD) I went through the process and Paypal/eBay, after receiving 3rd party verification that the DVD was a pirate copy, instructed me to destroy it and sign an affirmation that it had been destroyed. So I'm guessing that is what they would tell you to do here. You can ask them via email (they've always replied to my emails) and save the email in case anything happens but, as luckyseven said, it's highly unlikely anything will.

Knock-off sunglasses? It'd probably cost you more to ship them than it did for the seller to buy them originally.
posted by K.P. at 6:36 AM on April 27