Comments on: What kind of dressing should I use on my turkey?

Question: What kind of dressing should I use on my turkey?

luriete — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:48:37 -0800

TurkeyFilter: Last night I tested this year's turkey recipe, and it was a failure. I usually make a maple syrup/butter/broth reduction and use that and cheesecloth to make a wonderful bird - 4 years running. This year, though, I have to make a kosher bird as the meal will be held at a kosher family member's residence. The olive oil-based recipe I tried left the skin dry and soggy at the same time - not an easy feat - and the bird was OK but not special. We've deep-fried before to great results, and I assume peanut oil is kosher; should I adjust for another type of non-butter fat (would margarine work? olive oil certainly didn't) or just bite the bullet and deep-fry?

By: PossumCowboy

PossumCowboy — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:56:53 -0800

I vote deep-fry. Remember that you need an oil with a high smoking point. Olive oil has a low smoking point, which means that it will catch fire at a lower temperature, although I like the flavor of it and am sometimes willing to sautee things at a lower temp just for that reason.

I have a personal bias against margarine, due to the many ingredients that I have trouble pronouncing; I am aware that many people like and use it.

Can you post the olive oil-based recipe? That might help with answering questions, and it might be something that I'd really like to try.

By: fish tick

fish tick — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:04:38 -0800

Why not play it safe and have a tofurkey? That way you don't risk offending anybody, especially the one getting his head and entrails removed for the sake of an annual celebration of gluttony.

By: piro

piro — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:04:52 -0800

As a Kosher-observant Jew, raised in Louisiana and Florida, I can speak both to the deliciousness (and speed) of a deep fried turkey, and the efficacy of margarine as a butter-substitute for your bird. To wit: both are excellent choices.

Peanut oil's a safe bet for the frying, and you can almost certainly kasher the turkey fryer using equipment on hand to the relative's satisfaction.

But I'd probably go with the maple glaze, myself. Fleischmann's Unsalted margarine is probably your best generally available bet for non-dairy butter substitute. It's certified kosher parve by the Orthodox Union.

Good luck.

By: luriete

luriete — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:12:04 -0800

Oh sorry, no I meant that I roast a bird using olive oil instead of butter for my fat. I wouldn't deep fry in anything except the peanut oil that I've used in the past. Here is the olive oil based recipe I used:

1 (10 to 14 pound) fresh turkey
1/2 cups kosher salt (or use 1 cup table salt)
zest from 4 lemons, reserve juice
1 cup tightly packed Italian or curly parsley
25 large fresh sage leaves
1 (8-inch) sprig fresh rosemary (discard stem)
optional: marjoram, thyme, 2 bay leaves (must be fresh)
1 cup extra virgin olive oil
10 garlic cloves
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
Aluminum foil

process half the zest and the spices, pepper, garlic, 1/2 cup olive oil and half the salt into a paste. This should be inserted directly into the meat - separate using a butter knife - and also with more olive oil under the skin.

then give the whole bird a good rub inside and out with the remaining zest and brush all over with olive oil and a small amount of the juice. drizzle more of the juice inside the cavity. Roast breast-down on a v-rack for the first 3/4 of cooking time, frequently basting with the olive oil-lemon juice mixture and pan juices. flip breast up to finish, continue basting; let stand 15 minutes plus before cutting. use something starchy in the roasting pan to soak up the juices - root vegetables (parsnip, carrots, potatoes, celery root, turnip, onions, beets etc. are all good, rub them with kosher salt and olive oil prior to starting to keep them from burning early).

By: metoo

metoo — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:24:31 -0800

I'm wondering if at least part of the issue is inserting into the meat and under the skin. I was taught to never pierce the skin of a baking/roasting bird & so i don't. So far all my turkeys have turned out well and I have used butter, margarine (tub kind w/ no hydrog oils), and oil, though not olive, at various times. I do tend to cook at higher temp first to seal/brown the skin and then lowered the temp and just keep foil handy to lightly tent any parts getting too dark.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:28:03 -0800

I have never, ever oiled the skin of the bird, and I've gotten great, lovely brown skins. Here's how I do it:

First, you need a brown paper bag. I know, hard to find these days; construction paper might work, and maybe baking parchment. Dunno.

Cut the paper to size big enough to tent over the bird with the edges tucked into the pan.

Put a crease in the middle of the paper, then oil it all over. Any oil will do.

Tent the bird and roast normally.

Here's what I suspect is the secret: I baste with a mix of fresh-squeezed orange juice, a little bit of brandy, and spices (black pepper, organo, and sage) -- no oil. Ruby it into the skin before you start cooking, to help keep it from just running off later.

When I've done my birds this way, they get nicely brown without drying out, and the skin is nice and crackly and has a wonderful flavor -- and makes fantastic turkey stock, too.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:36:49 -0800

(disclaimer: I'm a vegetarian and have never eaten turkey in my life, but I cook like a champ.)

Low temperature oil isn't so good for basting because it doesn't adhere to the surface like butter does-- it doesn't have any solids in it, so it saturates the skin (soggy underneath) and runs off the top (the dry top layer). A hydrogenated olive oil (ie olive-oil based margarine from a tub) will give you better results because it will cling to the skin without saturating it, much like butter does. I specify olive oil-based because most margarines are made with neutral oils that contribute fat but not flavor.

But you probably can't go wrong deep frying it-- everyone I know who's tried deep fried turkey really liked it. But I think about how much fat I consume on Thanksgiving without touching the turkey, and I couldn't do that with a clean conscience.

By: carter

carter — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:39:42 -0800

Another kosher marge is 'Tomor.'

By: edgeways

edgeways — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:52:32 -0800

I've used olive oil in basting with no problems, but I cook the bird upside down until about an hour before done then turn it over for the rest of the time

By: Asparagirl

Asparagirl — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:56:05 -0800

I vote deep-fry. And go easy on the salt--kosher meat and poulty has enough of it already.

By: killy willy

killy willy — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:56:12 -0800

I forth the notion of deep-frying. Beware the cleanup aftermath, though. If you want to save the oil, I recommend buying a large oil funnel from an auto parts store, and line it with a coffee filter or two.

By: briank

briank — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:17:49 -0800

I'd test piro's suggestion of substituting a kosher margarine in your glaze before committing to the deep-fryer route.

There's not much subtlety in deep-fried turkey, even though it is yummy.

And if it doesn't work, you know that the deep-fryer is still an option.

By: PlanoTX

PlanoTX — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:41:14 -0800

Can you roast/fry a "kosher" turkey in a non-kosher kitchen? Not if your utensils have been previously used with recipes calling for butter or milk-based products.

If you haven't given any thought to this, check out the process of "kashering", noted by piro (above).

If chicken recipes can be used for turkey, there are a bunch of them at this Empire Kosher web site.

By: poipill

poipill — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:44:49 -0800

I've always sworn by oven bags.

By: aberrant

aberrant — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:03:33 -0800

Please also note that, technically, you won't be preparing a "kosher" turkey unless you:

1) buy a kosher bird
2) cook using kosher utensils and equipment

While it's very easy to do 1), it's next to impossible to do 2) unless you're willing to pay a rabbi to come in and certify your kitchen as kosher. It's not enough to use new utensils/cookware; the kitchen, prep area, and oven must be certified as well.

Now, it could be that your kosher relatives just care that the calf not be seethed in its mother's milk (the prohibition against meat and dairy), but you should check first. If that's the case, see next paragraph.

I use paprika, a bit of garlic, and a combination of veg oil and non-dairy margarine, with cheesecloth. Comes out amazingly well. Good luck!

By: luriete

luriete — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:05:08 -0800

Yes, a kosher bird is on order, and will be preparing it in the back yard of a home with a kosher kitchen. Everything else is "officially" kosher - although I am not sure about the big pot that I am going to use for the bird, darn it. Can't exactly take it to the Mikvah now either.

By: aberrant

aberrant — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:16:02 -0800

The pot may or may not be an issue -- check with the relatives. Otherwise, it sounds like you're all set. Heed caveats about adding salt, and check out the Fleischmann's Unsalted margarine. You'll know it's parve when you see "(U) Parve" on it (link with picture here.)

By: aberrant

aberrant — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:17:43 -0800

(Oh, and the problem with olive oil in general is its low smoking point. Best to use a vegetable/margarine mix if you're baking/roasting.)

By: PlanoTX

PlanoTX — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:32:33 -0800

I'd have to agree with 'aberrant' that "glatt kosher" (to the satisfaction of the highest orthydox standards) is, in all practicality, impossible for you to achieve. You ought to check with your host to find their expectation of "kosher". It may be as simple as the avoidance of butter and milk products (and, of course, lard) in the preparation of the bird. It may be that you'll start with a kosher turkey from the butcher, buy a brand new aluminum roasting pan, and maybe some mixing bowls, plastic spoons, etc. Get your guidance from your host. What is "kosher" can be interpreted from several different viewpoints according to the observance level of those involved.

This reminds me of a story I heard on television some years back. Ted David, an anchorman on CNBC, is a very observant Jew. He had been off the program in observance of Passover. On his return, he related a story of the Passover Seder. The seder has a multi-course (kosher) meal in the middle of it, a meal that could remind you of Thanksgiving. One of the traditional dishes is chopped liver.

The liver was excellent, and the guest who had brought it received many compliments on it. With talk of the various recipes, she finally revealed the secret to the chopped liver. "I couldn't find any schmaltz (chicken fat)," she said, "so I used butter instead."

That ended the conversation, the chopped liver, and, for some, the entire meal.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving, luriete.

By: PlanoTX

PlanoTX — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:37:18 -0800

Three new posts were added while I was typing away at my last comments. I guess that's only to be expected when you get called away to attend to other business before you get to post your reply.

By: Quinbus Flestrin

Quinbus Flestrin — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:08:16 -0800

Schmaltz just got mentioned in regards to chopped liver, but wouldn't it be another solution to the problem stated original question?

By: aberrant

aberrant — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:29 -0800

Quinbus: yes, but if you're buying schmaltz, make sure it's not rendered pork fat, but rather chicken. I recall having a very unpleasant enlightenment in the restaurant of a hotel in Freiburg.

Completely unhealthy in any case (I think even margarine would be better for you!).

By: luriete

luriete — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:37 -0800

My goodness! A turkey roasted with shmaltz. I never would have thought of that. But do I use chicken shmaltz or go fully-cannibalistic and use turkey shmaltz? I wonder how much I have left in the fridge at home.

So many good ideas here - you people are so helpful!

By: PlanoTX

PlanoTX — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:54:19 -0800

Schmaltz had its heyday some 30 or 40 years ago, in the pre-cholesterol era. It's stereotypically considered an unhealthy food. So is liver, for that matter, high in cholesterol.

Turkey schmaltz? I don't know. The recipes generally specifiy chicken or goose fat. Onion and apple are common additives.

A recipe is found here.

Before you use schmaltz, you'd better check that no one is on a strict low-fat, low-cholesterol diet.

By: luriete

luriete — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:26:29 -0800

We have one family member who is on a low-fat diet, but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that even deep-fried, the breast meat (sans skin) will be reasonably lean. You've all given me plenty to chew on (ba-dum dum).

By: jb

jb — Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:47:20 -0800

My mother recommends using the fat you take out of the inside of the turkey anyways - it's not like you would be adding any fat. If you tent your turkey with tinfoil, it should be moist without basting.

By: nanojath

nanojath — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:03:34 -0800

Not helpfull, but curious, butter can be kosher can't it? Somebody explain the intricacies of cooking a kosher turkey to me in this context...

By: PlanoTX

PlanoTX — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:33:33 -0800

Butter can be kosher; turkey can be kosher.

The mixture of butter and turkey can NEVER be kosher.

It's that Biblical thing about not eating meat together with milk (or milk products).