I am not made of money and even if I was, it is illegal to sell body parts.
April 16, 2009 7:08 PM Subscribe
Crafting an effective complaint letter to Wells Fargo when technically, in the eyes of the law they are not at fault. (Relevant Details Follow)
Day 1 (Monday Afternoon): I check my bank account online and had $88. Enough to buy $30 of pet food. There were no other transactions listed as pending. I knew I had an automated loan payment coming up that has previously (always) posted on Day 4 a certain day of the month as well as an outstanding $25 check.
Day 2: The pet food cleared from my account. Thinking I still had about $25 in my account after the pet food and the outstanding check I bought $3.39 worth of groceries. At some point my $120 auto payment cleared 2 days earlier than usual. Because Wells Fargo deducts the largest transaction per day first, both the loan payment and pet food incurred overdraft fees.
Day 3: The $3 grocery transaction cleared. Because loan payment had caused a negative balance, the $3 also incurred an overdraft fee. A refund for a return cleared and $35 was added to my account which should have covered the $25 check which cleared this day as well. All that happened without me realizing it. Thinking I still had about $20 in my account I bought $10 worth of groceries. Shortly after which I got an email warning me of insufficient funds from the 14th. At this point I couldn't stop any transactions I had already made. I could not add money to my account to cover any of this because I don't get paid until Day 5.
Day 4: The $10 of groceries from day 3 clears. Because of they way that they process their transactions I have 5 overdraft fees for $35.00 a pop.
That is $175 IN FEES! Over half of what I make in a week. Technically they are not legally at fault, but I am disgusted by this whole thing. I would like to close my account with them, but I would also like at least 4 of the fees back.
I know that commonly complaint letters are responded too because the complaintee threatens taking their business elsewhere, but I will be doing that anyway. What is the best way to approach this? What kinds of things can I write that have the best chance of reversing most of these fees.
I am in favor of a letter because I am on medication that fucks with my emotions and I start crying very very easily. Previous dealings with Wells Fargo Reps either at location or on the phone results in me agreeing to things I don't actually agree with because I just need to get out or hang up before I bawl my eyes out.
Day 1 (Monday Afternoon): I check my bank account online and had $88. Enough to buy $30 of pet food. There were no other transactions listed as pending. I knew I had an automated loan payment coming up that has previously (always) posted on Day 4 a certain day of the month as well as an outstanding $25 check.
Day 2: The pet food cleared from my account. Thinking I still had about $25 in my account after the pet food and the outstanding check I bought $3.39 worth of groceries. At some point my $120 auto payment cleared 2 days earlier than usual. Because Wells Fargo deducts the largest transaction per day first, both the loan payment and pet food incurred overdraft fees.
Day 3: The $3 grocery transaction cleared. Because loan payment had caused a negative balance, the $3 also incurred an overdraft fee. A refund for a return cleared and $35 was added to my account which should have covered the $25 check which cleared this day as well. All that happened without me realizing it. Thinking I still had about $20 in my account I bought $10 worth of groceries. Shortly after which I got an email warning me of insufficient funds from the 14th. At this point I couldn't stop any transactions I had already made. I could not add money to my account to cover any of this because I don't get paid until Day 5.
Day 4: The $10 of groceries from day 3 clears. Because of they way that they process their transactions I have 5 overdraft fees for $35.00 a pop.
That is $175 IN FEES! Over half of what I make in a week. Technically they are not legally at fault, but I am disgusted by this whole thing. I would like to close my account with them, but I would also like at least 4 of the fees back.
I know that commonly complaint letters are responded too because the complaintee threatens taking their business elsewhere, but I will be doing that anyway. What is the best way to approach this? What kinds of things can I write that have the best chance of reversing most of these fees.
I am in favor of a letter because I am on medication that fucks with my emotions and I start crying very very easily. Previous dealings with Wells Fargo Reps either at location or on the phone results in me agreeing to things I don't actually agree with because I just need to get out or hang up before I bawl my eyes out.
Seriously, just go in there and smile and be nice and beg.
posted by Maisie Jay at 7:18 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Maisie Jay at 7:18 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I've heard that you could contact a real person at a local branch and talk with them to decrease or even waive these fees, especially if it's your first of such overdraft events. Dealing with someone in person is the best way to do this - phone calls might end up getting you re-routed without a lot of information or help.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:24 PM on April 16, 2009
posted by filthy light thief at 7:24 PM on April 16, 2009
Sometimes branch managers do not have the authority to refund that much in fees at once. If you really can't stand the in person confrontation, a letter addressed to the CEO has worked for several people with this exact issue who posted to Consumerist.
posted by slow graffiti at 7:25 PM on April 16, 2009
posted by slow graffiti at 7:25 PM on April 16, 2009
In the past, when I've had something like this happen--the horrible cascade of overdrafts--I've called the bank and said, "You know, this is basically one event--I made one mistake but now I've got all these fees," and they have always been willing to reduce it to one overdraft fee. And they've always been nice about it. My bank isn't Wells Fargo, but it certainly is possible.
My conversations have been really straightforward and haven't required begging.
posted by not that girl at 7:49 PM on April 16, 2009
My conversations have been really straightforward and haven't required begging.
posted by not that girl at 7:49 PM on April 16, 2009
Their main customer service number can reverse up to 3 OD fees if you're a 'good customer' (according to some specific, secret guidelines they have). If you don't want to call, you could start with a simple email from your online account. If that doesn't work, then try escalating. Individual branches really aren't into waiving fees that much anymore since they eat the cost. Just a tip: Don't tell them you're going to close your account regardless of the outcome. If they know they're losing your business anyway, there's not much incentive to give you any money back.
posted by logic vs love at 7:53 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by logic vs love at 7:53 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
I know that commonly complaint letters are responded too because the complaintee threatens taking their business elsewhere, but I will be doing that anyway.
To be bluntly honest, if you regularly keep less than a couple hundred dollars in your account and frequently overdraw, they probably don't want your business. If this is going to be something that will likely happen again, you probably want to look into a local credit union or smaller bank, for your own good.
That being said, I've heard of Wells Fargo branch managers reducing fees when asked nicely, especially the first time an overdraw happens. It's hard to know for certain, but the fact that they are willing to do this adds credibility to the assertion that these fees are intended to be a deterrent, and not just some nefarious "waiting for you to screw up" money-making scheme.
posted by blenderfish at 7:59 PM on April 16, 2009
To be bluntly honest, if you regularly keep less than a couple hundred dollars in your account and frequently overdraw, they probably don't want your business. If this is going to be something that will likely happen again, you probably want to look into a local credit union or smaller bank, for your own good.
That being said, I've heard of Wells Fargo branch managers reducing fees when asked nicely, especially the first time an overdraw happens. It's hard to know for certain, but the fact that they are willing to do this adds credibility to the assertion that these fees are intended to be a deterrent, and not just some nefarious "waiting for you to screw up" money-making scheme.
posted by blenderfish at 7:59 PM on April 16, 2009
As the other's have said, throwing yourself on the mercy of the Bank manager often helps on a first offense.
Here's another option. The key to all of this is that the loan payment came out early. Technically, you have the right to have your bank return an ACH debit that comes out of your account earlier than the date it was authorized. So, if you're certain that you've only authorized the payment to come out on day 4, you can sign an affidavit at your bank stating that the early payment was unauthorized. The bank would then credit your account for the loan payment and should refund all your overdraft fees that resulted. The catch is that you will have to pay the loan again, and any late fees that they may tack on for the returned item.
Good luck either way.
posted by saffry at 8:03 PM on April 16, 2009
Here's another option. The key to all of this is that the loan payment came out early. Technically, you have the right to have your bank return an ACH debit that comes out of your account earlier than the date it was authorized. So, if you're certain that you've only authorized the payment to come out on day 4, you can sign an affidavit at your bank stating that the early payment was unauthorized. The bank would then credit your account for the loan payment and should refund all your overdraft fees that resulted. The catch is that you will have to pay the loan again, and any late fees that they may tack on for the returned item.
Good luck either way.
posted by saffry at 8:03 PM on April 16, 2009
The loan that's usually come out on Day 4 is probably written with language that allows the bank to withdraw funds in time to for the payment to post on the the previous business day, if the actual due date is on a weekend or holiday. I have a bill that's due on the 7th and sometimes it's withdrawn as early as the 4th. I doubt there's really a loophole there, just more fine print that didn't get read.
A thought: In addition to throwing yourself on a friendly bank officer to ask for (some) fees to be waived, you should also inquire about getting overdraft protection. They may be more willing to be generous if they're able to book a new account and guarantee a new income stream at the same time. At my bank (B of A), they charge $10 to transfer money into your account and the interest rate is 18%, but it's still a bargain compared to a series of $35 overdraft fees.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:20 PM on April 16, 2009
A thought: In addition to throwing yourself on a friendly bank officer to ask for (some) fees to be waived, you should also inquire about getting overdraft protection. They may be more willing to be generous if they're able to book a new account and guarantee a new income stream at the same time. At my bank (B of A), they charge $10 to transfer money into your account and the interest rate is 18%, but it's still a bargain compared to a series of $35 overdraft fees.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:20 PM on April 16, 2009
To be bluntly honest, if you regularly keep less than a couple hundred dollars in your account and frequently overdraw, they probably don't want your business.
Actually, that's not true at all. In fact, it's just the opposite. The banks love customers who routinely do this as it's a huge source of profit for the banks.
A lot of this will change in July of 2010 when reforms through new regulations kick in, especially with their predatory credit card terms. However, there is a move (with a lot of bipartisan support) to craft even stronger legislation that would go into effect before July of next year. High to low drafting of payments by the banks is what has got this poster in big trouble. The standard answer from the banks is that they think the customer would want the highest payment (supposedly the "most important") to be paid first. That kind of double-talk is what's getting the banks slapped with some heavy-duty reforms in the next year. On its face that high-to-low excuse is a lie. What difference does it make if an "important" higher draft is drafted at 1:03am and the "less important" draft from the supermarket is drafted at 1:04am - they know they're going to pay them in most all instances and rack up the fees. The "most important" excuse is a flat-out lie that many people buy when it is explained to them and actually accept that the bank was doing them a favor! Most people don't stop to think it through and many never realize they're being fed a line of complete BS. It's truly an outrage.
The solutions above are all good. Just ask for it back - chances are you'll have to compromise. Present yourself inside a branch looking nice, being nice and flowers, doughnuts....just kidding. The simple request at the bank should get you some of the overdraft fees refunded to you. Good luck!
posted by Gerard Sorme at 8:31 PM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
Actually, that's not true at all. In fact, it's just the opposite. The banks love customers who routinely do this as it's a huge source of profit for the banks.
A lot of this will change in July of 2010 when reforms through new regulations kick in, especially with their predatory credit card terms. However, there is a move (with a lot of bipartisan support) to craft even stronger legislation that would go into effect before July of next year. High to low drafting of payments by the banks is what has got this poster in big trouble. The standard answer from the banks is that they think the customer would want the highest payment (supposedly the "most important") to be paid first. That kind of double-talk is what's getting the banks slapped with some heavy-duty reforms in the next year. On its face that high-to-low excuse is a lie. What difference does it make if an "important" higher draft is drafted at 1:03am and the "less important" draft from the supermarket is drafted at 1:04am - they know they're going to pay them in most all instances and rack up the fees. The "most important" excuse is a flat-out lie that many people buy when it is explained to them and actually accept that the bank was doing them a favor! Most people don't stop to think it through and many never realize they're being fed a line of complete BS. It's truly an outrage.
The solutions above are all good. Just ask for it back - chances are you'll have to compromise. Present yourself inside a branch looking nice, being nice and flowers, doughnuts....just kidding. The simple request at the bank should get you some of the overdraft fees refunded to you. Good luck!
posted by Gerard Sorme at 8:31 PM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]
I hate Wells Fargo with all my heart. I used to lose days off my life span every time I walked into one.
This doesn't help your current situation, but my advice: Move to another, smaller, local bank. Even better, a credit union.
posted by mikeand1 at 8:40 PM on April 16, 2009
This doesn't help your current situation, but my advice: Move to another, smaller, local bank. Even better, a credit union.
posted by mikeand1 at 8:40 PM on April 16, 2009
Go to the Service Manager at Wells Fargo, not the Branch Manager. The OD fees are a direct income stream to the housing branch (where the account was opened) and the fees/refunds hit their GL, so the manager will be less likely to refund. However, the Service Manager is usually all people-pleasing, touchy-feely and will be more helpful. Ask for a percentage of the fees to be waived instead of flat figures. Generally, a calculator programmed to look at if this is the first time, how long have you been a customer, etc. is used and then you'll be offered 25% back. Go in and request 75% and be thankful if you get the 25%. Whether it's all one event or several isn't really the issue, although I understand what you're saying. There's no way you'll get multiple OD fees of that dollar amount refunded 100%. If you had one fee, perhaps.
Also, go into the discussion stating that you realize it's your error due to the timing of an automatic payment and say that you're requesting a "one-time courtesy refund" ... also, ask if you can sit down and discuss overdraft options. Even if you're not able to open a savings account or interested in setting up a line of credit from a credit card they try to sell you, making the effort to avoid the problem in the future goes a really long way in getting a refund.
Finally, do not, under any circumstances, state that you will close your account. As mentioned above, what benefit will they get from pleasing someone who will leave? It's like a husband asking for a blowjob right after he announces he wants a divorce. Why would you comply? Why would the bank comply?
Also, start using Wells online systems a little better. Set up alerts that send emails/texts to your phone - it's free mobile banking. You can set up alerts if your balance gets too low or if you do set up overdraft, transfer funds from one account to another.
You can try looking for the smaller, hometown bank or credit union, but really, every financial institution has some sort of fees, so really no need to blame the "big bank" Wells.
Gerard Sorme is spot-on, by the way.
posted by cyniczny at 9:39 PM on April 16, 2009
Also, go into the discussion stating that you realize it's your error due to the timing of an automatic payment and say that you're requesting a "one-time courtesy refund" ... also, ask if you can sit down and discuss overdraft options. Even if you're not able to open a savings account or interested in setting up a line of credit from a credit card they try to sell you, making the effort to avoid the problem in the future goes a really long way in getting a refund.
Finally, do not, under any circumstances, state that you will close your account. As mentioned above, what benefit will they get from pleasing someone who will leave? It's like a husband asking for a blowjob right after he announces he wants a divorce. Why would you comply? Why would the bank comply?
Also, start using Wells online systems a little better. Set up alerts that send emails/texts to your phone - it's free mobile banking. You can set up alerts if your balance gets too low or if you do set up overdraft, transfer funds from one account to another.
You can try looking for the smaller, hometown bank or credit union, but really, every financial institution has some sort of fees, so really no need to blame the "big bank" Wells.
Gerard Sorme is spot-on, by the way.
posted by cyniczny at 9:39 PM on April 16, 2009
This happened to us a few months ago & Wells Fargo said "tough luck" and wouldn't refund anything when we went in person and talked to them. Friends have had similar results. I hate Wells Fargo.
posted by belladonna at 5:49 AM on April 17, 2009
posted by belladonna at 5:49 AM on April 17, 2009
your original post, down through the "Day 4" paragraph, is well written and can serve as the beginning of your talk with the branch manager. seconding going in there for a chat. I'm sorry this happened and wish you the best.
posted by JimN2TAW at 6:40 AM on April 17, 2009
posted by JimN2TAW at 6:40 AM on April 17, 2009
I completely understand the emtions you are going through and how they are affecting your communication with the Wells Fargo representatives. I get emotional myself when it comes to issues between, say, my kids and their schools, and it's hard to keep to the rational, logical stance when your feelings are involved.
Follow the advice of others above about who to contact--but bring a friend with you, or have them by your side when you call, to help you keep your cool.
Good luck!
posted by misha at 7:14 AM on April 17, 2009
Follow the advice of others above about who to contact--but bring a friend with you, or have them by your side when you call, to help you keep your cool.
Good luck!
posted by misha at 7:14 AM on April 17, 2009
Side note: Does that loan payment have to be automated? I know some folks swear by automated payments, but I don't mind the time it takes to pay online myself each month if it means I can track the day the payment goes through, so as to avoid the situation Sweety Darling points out when ACH payments go through early for holidays, etc. (before the next paycheck gets deposited).
posted by juliplease at 10:32 AM on April 17, 2009
posted by juliplease at 10:32 AM on April 17, 2009
To be bluntly honest, if you regularly keep less than a couple hundred dollars in your account and frequently overdraw, they probably don't want your business. If this is going to be something that will likely happen again, you probably want to look into a local credit union or smaller bank, for your own good.
Complete pernicious nonsense:
Banks Use Overdraft Fees to Fleece Customers
Computerized Traps Sniff Out Time and Amount Opportunities
Banks Charge from When the Slip Is Signed
Now an overdraft fee can be charged before the transaction overdraws the account. This is a current practice of Bank of America, TD Banknorth and SunTrust. ...
Largest Purchase Debited First
Banks also manipulate customer funds by the order in which they process debits and credits....
In 2007, banks collected a record $45.6 billion in overdraft fees, up 50% from 2001...
"Eight of the nation's 10 largest banks — Citigroup (C), Bank of America (BAC), Chase (JPM), Wachovia (WB), Wells Fargo (WFC), HSBC (HBC), U.S. Bank (USB) and SunTrust (STI)— typically pay checks that arrive on the same day from the largest to smallest dollar amount, according to USA TODAY research. Most large banks do the same with electronic transactions, according to a review of deposit agreements and conversations with the banks.
"The order in which banks process checks and other debits determines the overdraft fees they charge. Those fees make up 90% of service charges on deposit accounts, and they're expected to yield a record $53.1 billion for financial institutions this year, research firm Moebs Services says. ...
(Half of some large bank's profits are generated by fees such as overdraft fees, late fees, and so on.)
You're not their customer, you are their prey animal.
posted by jamjam at 12:36 PM on April 17, 2009
Complete pernicious nonsense:
Banks Use Overdraft Fees to Fleece Customers
Computerized Traps Sniff Out Time and Amount Opportunities
Banks Charge from When the Slip Is Signed
Now an overdraft fee can be charged before the transaction overdraws the account. This is a current practice of Bank of America, TD Banknorth and SunTrust. ...
Largest Purchase Debited First
Banks also manipulate customer funds by the order in which they process debits and credits....
In 2007, banks collected a record $45.6 billion in overdraft fees, up 50% from 2001...
"Eight of the nation's 10 largest banks — Citigroup (C), Bank of America (BAC), Chase (JPM), Wachovia (WB), Wells Fargo (WFC), HSBC (HBC), U.S. Bank (USB) and SunTrust (STI)— typically pay checks that arrive on the same day from the largest to smallest dollar amount, according to USA TODAY research. Most large banks do the same with electronic transactions, according to a review of deposit agreements and conversations with the banks.
"The order in which banks process checks and other debits determines the overdraft fees they charge. Those fees make up 90% of service charges on deposit accounts, and they're expected to yield a record $53.1 billion for financial institutions this year, research firm Moebs Services says. ...
(Half of some large bank's profits are generated by fees such as overdraft fees, late fees, and so on.)
You're not their customer, you are their prey animal.
posted by jamjam at 12:36 PM on April 17, 2009
At some point my $120 auto payment cleared 2 days earlier than usual.
I think this could be the smoking pile of excrement here.
Wells Fargo could very well have done something to push up the date when this payment was posted to your account in order to generate the overdraft fees, because they saw that you had made yourself vulnerable.
If they won't eliminate your fees, I would threaten to bring the matter to the attention of the Attorney General of your state after writing a letter to your congressperson, and then I would go ahead and do these things regardless of what they did.
posted by jamjam at 1:50 PM on April 17, 2009
I think this could be the smoking pile of excrement here.
Wells Fargo could very well have done something to push up the date when this payment was posted to your account in order to generate the overdraft fees, because they saw that you had made yourself vulnerable.
If they won't eliminate your fees, I would threaten to bring the matter to the attention of the Attorney General of your state after writing a letter to your congressperson, and then I would go ahead and do these things regardless of what they did.
posted by jamjam at 1:50 PM on April 17, 2009
Yes, they take every opportunity to collect these fees. That doesn't imply they want you to do it. Police generally give people who run stop signs tickets because they don't want them to do it.
I don't have the time to research this right now, but I bet they make a lot more money from lines of credit and credit cards, which is how you are supposed to borrow from a bank, not by juggling deposit and withdrawal dates. Someone who uses a checking account as a line of credit is a 'prey animal' like someone who never stops at stop signs.
Save 120$, put it in the account, and never touch it. For the low, low once-in-your-entire-lifetime price of 120$, you never have to worry about your loan check bouncing again.
posted by blenderfish at 3:05 PM on April 17, 2009
I don't have the time to research this right now, but I bet they make a lot more money from lines of credit and credit cards, which is how you are supposed to borrow from a bank, not by juggling deposit and withdrawal dates. Someone who uses a checking account as a line of credit is a 'prey animal' like someone who never stops at stop signs.
Save 120$, put it in the account, and never touch it. For the low, low once-in-your-entire-lifetime price of 120$, you never have to worry about your loan check bouncing again.
posted by blenderfish at 3:05 PM on April 17, 2009
Blenderfish, After you do your research come back and tell us how we were right and the banks LOVE customers who do this. It isn't out of civic duty that they reprimand with multiple fees to prevent it from happening again; to the contrary they know these high-to-low schemes are a scandalous multi-billion dollar profit center. This time next year - it will be against the law. Pardon the pun, but 'bank' on it.
posted by Gerard Sorme at 12:07 AM on April 18, 2009
posted by Gerard Sorme at 12:07 AM on April 18, 2009
I agree that there is an obvious need for some consumer protection laws.
But don't use your checking account like a line of credit.
(Anectodal: someone I know personally was told by a WF branch manager that they didn't want her business since she had a low account balance and kept bouncing checks.)
posted by blenderfish at 4:00 PM on April 18, 2009
But don't use your checking account like a line of credit.
(Anectodal: someone I know personally was told by a WF branch manager that they didn't want her business since she had a low account balance and kept bouncing checks.)
posted by blenderfish at 4:00 PM on April 18, 2009
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posted by disillusioned at 7:14 PM on April 16, 2009