Help me decide between Olin College and MIT

April 5, 2009 5:41 PM

I was lucky enough to get accepted to both of my two dream undergraduate schools. But now I have no idea which one to go to.

The two schools are MIT and Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering. Currently, I am thinking of studying electrical engineering.

Academically, these are both great schools, with MIT superior, but in different ways. MIT has such a diversity of possible course choices and majors, and no matter which one I ended up choosing, I would receive a world-class education. Furthermore, labs, research, colloquia, lectures, and additional academic opportunities available at MIT are stunning. On the other hand, despite what Olin cannot match (lab funding, research opportunities, breadth of possible majors), it has it's strengths in academics too. The core curriculum is very project-based, which appeals to me immensely. I have always been the sort of person who learns by getting my hands dirty and "doing", and especially for an engineering education, Olin seems to understand how important this is by making it the core of their curriculum. Furthermore, their curriculum, though they offer only engineering majors, is quite broad, with strong emphasis on both business and the humanities. Furthermore, all Olin students are cross-registered with and can take classes at Wellesley, Babson, and Brandeis.

Socially, there are definitely differences. I really love MIT's culture. The hacks, the quirkiness, the Mystery Hunt, I love it all, and have for quite some time. Olin, as such a small school, has a different personality. Everyone knows, and is pretty much universally friendly with everyone else, which I think is really cool. Furthermore, Oliners seem more relaxed, and in general much more happy than MIT. But, Olin has its share of social problems, as described in Aaron Swartz's lengthy blog post about visting Olin. As one of the commentors on that blog post states:

The biggest issue at Olin, if you asked me, would be the huge gap between the camps of students who are some combination of sexless, hyperactive, intensely religious or sheltered (and will, yes, glaze over and talk cultishly about how no one drinks or does anything bad, ever, when asked anything about the school) and those who are perfectly normal but still rather brilliant and would love to see us talken off the Princeton Review’s Stone Cold Sober list.

Certainly I would much rather be around the second group of people than the first, and MIT has a much more "traditional" college environment, and definitely better parties than Olin. I have really liked almost everyone that I met at both Olin and MIT so far.

MIT has better sports, but I'm not too big of a sports person, and actually, the potential for casual sports at Olin strikes me as more fun than really competitive sports at MIT (though I'm sure I could get casual intramural sports there as well). MIT has Snowriders.

Financially, MIT is much worse. With the financial aid package they gave me, my family and I would be paying/taking out loans to pay $43,000/year. At Olin, because they offer a full-tuition scholarship to every accepted student, I'd be paying only $18,000/year. Is MIT's pricetag worth the value that comes from having their name on my resumé?

I feel that I am at a complete impasse here. I cannot decide where would be better for me. Is there any insight or advice that MeFi can offer to help me make my decision?

posted by Bahro to education (58 comments total)

Having TA'd undergrads at MIT and having met a number of Olin undergrads, I think Olin is more special than MIT in many ways, and the asymmetry in tuition makes Olin even more favorable. If you're smart and motivated enough to get in to this fine school, you have what it takes to influence its culture positively in its fledgling years.
posted by Mapes at 5:53 PM on April 5

I went to my dream school - a small, unconventional school. It has a fantastic reputation in academia, and I got a great education.

Unfortunately, I ended up working in a different field of study - I was a liberal arts major, now I do techy stuff. And while I have this awesome education, it's not doing anything for me now, because nobody's heard of "X College." It might as well be a community college, for all people reading my resume know. I think it's hurt my career (as opposed to the big-name famous schools I could have gone to instead, where I probably would have gotten an equivalent education, albeit in a less-cool setting).

I don't know anything about Olin - for all I know, it's as well known in engineering circles as MIT - but consider the name recognition if that's important to you.
posted by edrnjevich at 5:55 PM on April 5

Make an Excel spreadsheet breaking down your bases for decision-making (e.g., diversity of programs, financial aid, campus culture, travel distance to family, whatever), and (here's the important part), give each of these points a weighting of 1 to 3 based on how important that point is TO YOU. Then rate each of the 2 schools separately 1 to 3 on each point by how well the score on fulfilling that need. Then multiply the scores by the rating and sum up the bottom line. You might find yourself then agreeing or disagreeing with the conclusion - that's important too, because you should follow your instincts. The rest is just a heuristic to get you to that point.
posted by matildaben at 5:56 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]

It doesn't sound like you're at an impasse at all... to me, this reads like you're trying to justify the higher cost of MIT to yourself. If that's true, and you and your family can actually afford for you to go there, maybe you've already made your decision. Go with your gut.

In any case, nobody can decide for you. But realize this: unless you really can't stand the school (and you don't seem to hate either option), you can fit in, have a good time, and learn a lot anywhere you go. Some colleges are certainly better than others, but the college can only get you so far. It's still possible to get a crappy education at a great school, or vice versa - what you do with the school is going to be the biggest part of what you learn, anywhere you go.

Also, remember that you only get to choose one (well, one at a time). It's not a limitation; you'll never know what you might be missing somewhere else, so just make a decision and go with it. You'll do great and have fun whatever you choose.
posted by captainawesome at 5:58 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]

Is MIT's pricetag worth the value that comes from having their name on my resumé?

From a sibling's experience I can assure you, yes it does!

Oh, yes ...
posted by jgirl at 6:00 PM on April 5

Rather, yes it is.

But he was in grad school, with a Draper fellowship, so YMMV, obviously.
posted by jgirl at 6:02 PM on April 5

Does Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering have a coffee shop that features a selection of classic candy bars, your choice of room temperature, refrigerated, or frozen?

How about a library that doesn't require ID and will retrieve obscure journal articles from the stacks on request, even if you look crazed and aren't wearing shoes?

Students who commute to class by walking on giant rolling wooden cable spools?

Do they manage to somehow engineer placing a campus security vehicle on top of the school's most iconic piece of architecture, undetected at night, while campus security is already watching the building because they've been warned?

I didn't think so.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:02 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]

A little about me so you'll know where I'm coming from: I graduated from MIT in 2002, with a chemistry degree, and went to law school. I lived at Random Hall, taught for three years in the Experimental Study Group, was chairman of LSC, and was one of the leaders of Random's Mystery Hunt team. We won the 2005 Hunt and I was head puzzle editor for the 2006 Hunt. So, with that out of the way, a few things to consider:

1. What are your possible career plans? If they are things where name matters, that's a point in MIT's favor. MIT will help you on Wall Street, or patent law, or business. I don't know, but suspect, that for things like software and hardware engineering, Olin will be sufficiently recognized to mitigate that advantage. On the other hand, an EE degree from MIT gets you pretty automatic credibility at a lot of tech companies.

2. What's your background? You didn't really say anything about this. Would the urban campus of MIT be a culture shift? What about the (comparatively) more isolated Olin community? How big your high school? It sounds like the size of Olin is a minus; how important is that? MIT is a huge community, but it's also an oddly Balkanized one: lots of small sub-communities. So, for instance, the west campus dorms are very different from EC/Senior Haus/Random/Bexley, are very different from fraternities, are very different from ILGs. Part of the challenge is finding the right community.

3. How self-motivated are you? I think this is a hugely important factor. MIT is great if you are proactive and find the right UROP and get to know some professors and get heavily involved in research. But the place is big enough that you kind of have to do it yourself; it's also kind of easy to just coast through and learn from classes and get your degree having gotten much less out of it than you could. I did this a bit, though part of that was deciding partway through that research chemistry wasn't for me. It sounds like Olin would push you more.

4. Are you interested in grad school? Then finding a good research project is key; this is doable at MIT because the UROP program is huge and established. It might be harder at Olin.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have, either here or via email. My email is in my profile.
posted by raf at 6:05 PM on April 5

I vote MIT.

I have virtually no experience with Olin, other than having heard of it.
posted by InsanePenguin at 6:05 PM on April 5

Well, other people will probably come in with different perspectives, but I'd say a core area of focus for you needs to be this question: Is MIT's pricetag worth the value that comes from having their name on my resumé?

We don't know where you and your family stand financially, or what your future goals are. Can you or your family pay $18k a year in cash? How about $43k? If you can afford Olin but not MIT, what about MIT other than parties and hacks and the fact that people have heard of your school makes up that gap for you? Are you the kind of person who can look a huge chunk of cash in the face and wave goodbye to it forever when you don't absolutely have to? I can't, and that's why I picked the school I did, and now I don't have any debt. I think it was worth it but you might not.
posted by crinklebat at 6:05 PM on April 5

I didn't go to MIT, but one of my best friends did. Visiting her and all of her super friendly, beyond cool friends was something I did as often as possible. (Just going to MIT for the films they showed on campus was awesome!) She absolutely loved her time there and then was recruited by Apple and helped design the iPhone. So maybe the college name on the resume does help.
posted by meerkatty at 6:05 PM on April 5

Flip a coin. Heads you go to MIT, tails you go to Olin. Go ahead. Do it. Did you do it? Good then. It's settled.

Now if you're thinking "Good, it's settled." Do what the coin said. If you're thinking "two out of three" and wanting to flip the coin again, do the opposite of what the coin says.

Me, I would stay out of debt. But you need to do what you want to do, so flip the coin and find out what you want to do.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:07 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]

You should go to MIT.

That is, if you want to be able to get a job anywhere in the country and not just be hired only by the academically enlightened who may know about Olin, you should to go MIT. I am 30, married to a computer programmer at a prominent company, and neither of us has ever heard of Olin.

That's not to say that you wouldn't have a good time there. But we're of the generation of people who will hire you. MIT means more to me than any undiscovered gem of a college. (Although, you might inquire with their admissions department about where their graduates go on to work. If you can be convinced by their spiel, trust your gut.)
posted by purpleclover at 6:08 PM on April 5

Oh yea, just in case this isn't obvious, if your interests are Steer Roast and hacking and Mystery Hunt, you're probably an EC/SH/RH or ILG type of person rather than a fraternity/west campus type of person. </blatant stereotyping>
posted by raf at 6:10 PM on April 5

I went to Olin (and turned down MIT for it). Feel free to MeMail me with any questions you have.

Do not go to Olin because it's cheap. That's not the right reason. If you're smart enough to get in to both, I'm sure you can get the right scholarships/etc to cover MIT. Only go to Olin if you love the culture. Olin is about the people and the community. If you're on campus and you're psyched about everyone you meet, then Olin is the place for you. If you're on campus and it creeps you out, Olin is not the place for you.

I very strongly disagree with Aaron Schwartz's post (and I left a comment in it to that point). There is that group of "stone cold sober" kids, but they're a relatively small group. You'll find them at every school; it's just that at Olin, you know everyone, so of course you know the sober kids. I hung out with the occasional drinkers. I wasn't big on the huge parties that social groups like Man Hall at Olin frequently throw. There's a spectrum everywhere -- it's just very obvious at Olin. And yeah, Olin kids can be a little "cultish" at times, because we all have so much invested in the school. Even as an alum I keep going back for events to volunteer, and I watched a financial update webinar last week to keep up to speed on Olin's budget and endowment. Most alumni don't care about their schools like that. Olin's do. I like that.

I turned down MIT because I felt an immediate connection with the people I'd met at Olin that I didn't feel at MIT. I also like taking risks and having the opportunity to do something new, so Olin was attractive that way as well (I was in the first class, so it was totally new and risky at that point). I knew no matter which one I went to, I'd come out as a great engineer -- though a different kind of engineer depending on which school it was -- and now I work closely with many MIT graduates and life is wonderful. But it had so much to do with the people for me that the program hardly figured into it.

To me, it sounds like you're leaning toward MIT -- you like the culture and name recognition, versus the price and program at Olin. And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't underestimate your ability to hang out with the MIT kids -- many people at Olin do, socially, though note having a car helps this immensely, and there are always summer research opportunities -- and remember, as I told myself when I sent in the "no thanks" letter, if you want the recognition, MIT will still be there for grad school some day.
posted by olinerd at 6:10 PM on April 5

matidaben: I actually already did that. Not that it really helped, MIT and Olin were virtually the same.

StickyCarpet: That's why I love MIT.

raf: I'd rather do something at a startup or a small, new company than somewhere established or (blegh) Wall Street. But if I graduate from MIT with $80,000 in debt, I'm worried that I won't be in the financial situation to take the risks inherent with a startup or new company. I'm from a small town, but I visited Cambridge and really enjoyed it. I think that I could live there very easily. From the people I've talked to and what I've read, I like East Campus better than west. Olin does have research opportunities, but from what I've heard form students, it actually takes more effort to get involved there than it does at MIT, and obviously the resources aren't as plentiful. I'm not sure yet whether or not I want to go to grad school.

crinklebat: We could probably manage $18,000/year mostly cash with minimal loans. MIT's pricetag would require at least $20,000/year in loans.

To everyone: What have your experiences been in taking on student debt? How has it affected decisions you've had to make? Was it worth it?
posted by Bahro at 6:20 PM on April 5

purpleclover: Regarding where Olin graduates have gone, their viewbook lists these jobs: Accenture, Bluefin Robotics, Boeing, DEKA, Google, IBM, Intel, iRobot, Osram Sylvania, RadiSsys, Raytheon, Yahoo! and these grad schools: MIT, Oxford, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, etc, in addtion to a bunch of startups.
posted by Bahro at 6:24 PM on April 5

Just a thought . . .are you considering going for a Master's or PhD after getting your B.S.? If so, perhaps you could go to MIT for graduate school, when they would likely offer you a better financial picture (research, GTA, etc).
posted by nameless.k at 6:24 PM on April 5

I'm an MIT alum and I've taught and supervised big student projects there for 6 years; several of my friends are now profs at Olin. You're welcome to Mefi-mail me if you want to talk over the phone (if you're in town, I'll give you a tour).

Many tech-y schools are similar. You're going to get a good geek education at all of them. I ended up going to MIT because it, by far, has the best humanities department of any of them. They have worked very hard (and spent large amount of money) to make that part of the school as world-class as the traditional science-math-engineering side, and they've done a really good job. Many students ignore this part, but if you're at all interested, it's a ridiculous resource. (I mean, seriously -- at MIT, I studied with the principal trumpet of the Boston Symphony, was taught about John Cage by John Harbison, and learned musicology from an editor of JAMS. You can learn how to write short stories from Junot Diaz. It's not even fair to the other tech schools.)

That said, I've taught at Olin also, and I'd argue that the student population (and motivation, and interest) there is sufficiently different from MIT that you'll know which place is a better fit from visiting both, visiting some classes, and seeing what everyone's up to both at work and play. This is basically what olinerd is saying upthread too.

And I also agree w/ raf's blatant and accurate stereotyping re: living groups, though it must be said that some other groups are trying. And I know it's confirmation bias, but I seem to always be running into faculty whose approach I really like, and we get to talking, and I learn they're an alum too, and it turns out at they, also, lived in EC/SH/Bexley/Random. (as an aside, raf, that Hunt was fun)
posted by range at 6:29 PM on April 5

Student debt sucks badly.

If I were to do school over, knowing that I would be going to graduate school for a master's degree, I would have gone to a 4-year state school for reduced tuition followed by a prestigious 2-year master's program at a private school for better post-graduate opportunities.
posted by seppyk at 6:29 PM on April 5

Debt is bad, student debt is not terribly bad, but it's a huge bummer to have to pay off a loan when you're just starting out. Unless you absolutely positively are in love with MIT, stick with the smaller school. If it sucks, transfer after a year.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 6:38 PM on April 5

I made the wrong school choice the first time around, and wound up transferring after two semesters (I actually considered transferring to Olin, but wound up ruling it out fairly early on because I didn't want to give up math for engineering, but that's neither here nor there).

The best advice I can give you is twofold:

1) Gather as much direct information as possible. Visit both of schools as many times as possible, preferably without your parents. Spend the night in a dorm if you can; try to meet people in social contexts, where you are interacting with them as a peer and not "that prospective student." Meet with the head of the EE department and see what they have to say; sit in on classes; hang around in the library, the student center, and the EE department lounge for an hour or so each and see what people are doing, what they're reading and talking about. Write to the heads of clubs you would be interested in joining and see if you can come to a meeting during your next visit. Especially, wander around and poke your nose into random places, all the time keeping your eyes wide open. You need to learn what the place is LIKE and you can't do that without going there and exploring.

2) Don't sweat it too much, but don't blow it off entirely. If you end up miserable and have to transfer, it isn't the end of the world, but it is a royal hassle. I wound up taking a semester off between schools, partly to have enough time to visit schools and fill out forms, and partly because I had been so unhappy during my freshman year that I needed some time to pull myself back together. It will make your life a lot easier if you can make the right choice the first time around, but don't feel like it'll kill you to go to the wrong place. So if you've done everything in (1) and still can't make up your mind (NOTE: this is highly unlikely; they're not that similar), just go to Olin because it's cheap and be done with it.


As an aside: do you have to go to one or the other? Don't rule out other places just because they don't have a big name, or aren't engineering schools. I'm very much a technically-minded person, but my first university was a technical school and I hated it; I'm much better off at my current small liberal-arts college. The whole story is more complicated than that, obviously, but it's something to consider.
posted by Commander Rachek at 6:43 PM on April 5

The culture MIT presents to the outside world is pretty different from what iiet's really like on campus. For instance, while we have exhibits around campus and a section on the admissions website devoted to hacking, the administration has started dealing with people found wandering in buildings after hours by calling the Cambridge police.
You also mention that Olin students seem more relaxed than students at MIT. Although I don't know anyone at Olin, I don't know any engineers at MIT who are both relaxed about school and also doing well. Problem sets are due every week in every class and you can consider yourself lucky if you spend less than 6 hours working on any given assignment. Add to that tests where the class average is often in the 50's and you have a student body that feels guilty about doing anything besides homework or the sorts of extracurriculars that look good on grad school applications.
As far as the loans go, that's probably something you should work out with your parents but you should keep in mind that even MIT students are having a hard time finding jobs.
Are you coming to CPW? If you do, take some time to leave all the fun stuff specifically designed to convince you to come here and talk to some of the students who are holed up in the libraries or reading room about what it's really like. If you want, mefimail me and I can tell you more (and if you're thinking about dorms I can tell you about and maybe show you Bexley (we don't normally let prefrosh in)).
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 6:43 PM on April 5

olinerd: When I visited Olin for Candidate's Weekend, I did feel a strong connection with almost everyone I met. I could definitely see myself living there for four years around those people.

I'm going to visit MIT again for their Campus Preview Weekend. I'm not sure how much that will help my decision, but I'll see how I like the people that I meet.
posted by Bahro at 6:44 PM on April 5

Bahro, I work in Cambridge just up the street from MIT. If you'd like to meet for lunch or coffee to talk, let me know. Some of my best friends are MIT grads (and were also EC-ers, where you sound like you'd fit in quite well) and working for two MIT-founded companies, I'm happy to give you whatever perspective I can on MIT vs Olin.
posted by olinerd at 6:48 PM on April 5

Student debt varies. I have about $110,000 of it, and it's not a huge deal to me; I pay maybe $700 a month. But more than half of it is locked in at 2.625%, and I make a lot of money as a lawyer. If you want to do something that pays less, it will suck more. (How much of the $80K would you be responsible for? Your limit of federal money is significantly lower, so the rest of the debt will technically be in your parents' names. Though of course what happens to that debt might change over time. For instance, some of my debt is technically owed by my parents, but I pay it.) Tech jobs generally pay enough to pay student loan debt; startups are risky in a lot of respects, but they generally still pay enough to live on.

By the way, if you're interested in being involved in startups, that might be another reason to think about MIT; the school generates a lot of startups. Though Olin might too; I have no idea.
posted by raf at 6:48 PM on April 5

range, Commander Racheck, anyone else with personal experience with both of these schools: What in your opinion are the largest/most important differences between them?
posted by Bahro at 6:51 PM on April 5

matidaben: I actually already did that. Not that it really helped, MIT and Olin were virtually the same.

Holy crap that's an awesomely detailed and dorky spreadsheet. You'll do fine at either. :) (Not that that's helpful.)
posted by raf at 6:56 PM on April 5

Debt is not necessarily bad but it is very limiting. If you graduate with 50K in debt you will be paying about $500/month on it for many years. Your total repayment will be $70K+ even with low interest rates (I am too lazy to do the math but you should). That is $70K that you will not have during your 20s to do things like travel the world, buy a house or pay for a wedding.

otoh, you are studying engineering so you will make a decent salary and will probably take a full time job upon graduation with benefits and be able to make the payments and still do ok. Still, you should do the math and not just think that because everyone is accruing huge amounts of debt that you can too or that it will work for your situation.
posted by fshgrl at 6:57 PM on April 5

Another Olin student here in the MeFi hizzouse.

First, to StickyCarpet -- our library isn't anything compared to MIT's, but we do at least have 24-hour access. ;) And a few kids go to class on unicycles, at least, if that's a positive for you. But yeah, no fancy candy bars and no cop cars on domes, etc.; it's a very suburban experience and we don't have any hacking culture to speak of.

I'm always a little surprised that people feel caught between Olin and MIT -- the culture seems so different. I visited MIT but didn't apply. The whole IHTFP attitude -- even though I understand it's frequently meant in jest -- really turned me off. Why would I want to be miserable (or pretending to be) for 4 years? Olin also used to talk about itself as "engineering in the liberal arts tradition," which really appealed to me -- it's backed away from that tagline a little bit, but at the time it played well off of my impression of engineers elsewhere as being narrowly interested and, er, nerdy. Insisting on referring to your buildings by number says a lot about a campus. For instance. ;) I spent some time doing summer research at Caltech and it convinced me that I was probably right that I wouldn't have enjoyed undergrad life at MIT.

My schtick is that if I knew in 2005 that I'd be really into bioengineering and knew that I wanted to do research, I probably wouldn't have come to Olin. But, looking back, I'm not sure that would have been the right decision. I have a great relationship with my professors, I've been able to find research positions at labs at Caltech, UC Berkeley, and at a medical devices startup nearby, and the College was flexible enough to support me when I took a semester of leave to intern at the Human Rights Campaign and work as a field organizer for the Clinton campaign in Las Vegas. I'm applying to grad schools in the fall and I'm feeling pretty optimistic, but ask me again in a year. And I'm graduating in December w/o debt. I'm pretty happy with who and where I am right now.

If I had advice, it'd be not to worry too much about where you end up. Olin and MIT are both great institutions, and neither is going to hold you back from your potential. I have friends at MIT whom I love and they seem happy, and I love love love Cambridge -- I lived in Central Square last summer and was pretty wroth about having to return to Needham. I still spend some time around Andala in Central and the ice cream places in Harvard. Trust your instincts and do you think'll make you happy. Let me know if I can expect to see you in the fall!
posted by mote at 6:57 PM on April 5

I don't know about all the rest, but if you go to MIT there will be very many people over the course of your career who will fawn over this point on your resume. It is pretty disgusting to be sure, but it is real. I went to a fancy resume building school. It was terrific. The profs were great, but lots of schools have great profs. My fellow students were the most amazing resource. They were from all over the world, uniformly brilliant, yet each unique. MIT will have that, I don't know about Olin on this point, although it might fit many of these points despite being more regional. However, after graduation, your resume will be reviewed by lots of people who know nothing about these places, except they will know that MIT is at the top of the heap for technology. It will get you interviews, it will sway opinions. I received an amazing education from my school, but lots of other less prestigious schools probably would have filled that bill. However, it now opens lots of doors for me now those others could not, or at least could not do as well. MIT is an amazing place and everyone I know who went there loved it. It could be both an amazing experience, and a valuable resource throughout your career.

There are lots of reasons to choose schools. Opening doors later in life is but one, and it may not necessarily even be a super important reason. It is a reality though. Your comfort with the environment, the profs, your fellow students, the atmosphere on campus, the politics, etc. all matter very, very greatly. It's a very tough decision. Congratulations to you on your success in getting in two these two amazing schools. Best of luck in your future endeavors regardless of where you go.
posted by caddis at 7:14 PM on April 5

Olin is extremely well-regarded. If I were in your position, I would be extremely proud of my Olin acceptance, moreso than the MIT acceptance.

Congratulations! I'm very impressed.

Also, I would ask engineers about your decision, rather than ordinary Metafilter commenters, just because a lot of ordinary people haven't heard of Olin, doesn't mean it's not knock-your-socks off prestigious. It really is and it's amazing. You should definitely go to Olin.
posted by anniecat at 7:26 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]

My two cents:

I just graduated from MIT. I lived (actually, still live) in an Independent Living Group on campus that happens to be a coop. The combination of the wild-ride, drink-from-a-firehose, bazillion-opportunities-every-day frenzy of MIT, and the close-knit, super-supportive, truly-meaningful experience of living in a coop was perfect for me.

My coop has been in constant contact with Olin since it opened - the people that live at my coop seem very simpatico with the Oliners in terms of what Really Matters to us. (We currently have an Olin graduate on our meal plan, an Oliner who took a year off lived with us while he started a company, and we invite Oliners to our events and go to theirs.) That is to say, if you feel a kinship with Oliners, don't assume you won't find those same kinds of people at MIT. MIT students tend to be very close and involved with their living groups, and while it can take some energy to find one that's perfect for you, I can pretty much guarantee that "your people" are at MIT somewhere.

MIT is absolutely overflowing with opportunities to work on incredible projects, and although Olin certainly has its fair share of cool projects, as you say, it doesn't have the breadth and depth as a research university. Doing research as an undergrad was the first thing that pulled me to MIT and in retrospect it's one of the best things the school has to offer.

I can't tell you whether or not MIT is worth its price tag definitively, since I just graduated - but so far, I suspect that it is. It *is* possible to get an education that doesn't really work for you at MIT, but I think the opportunities are so staggeringly many that if you are motivated to really learn your stuff, you WILL get a thorough, meaningful education that is worth the money (and doesn't evaporate 1 week after your last final). At least that's what I found.

I hope this helps you decide - of course nobody can decide for you. When I was deciding whether to attend MIT or another school I was accepted in to, a friend suggested closing my eyes and imagining that I was in each place, and seeing what my reaction was. This exercise struck me as totally ridiculous, but it turned out not to be - my sense of excitement about MIT shone through even in my imagination.

Lastly, MIT is hard. Very hard. Some people become cynical by the end. I didn't, and I think it was because I really, really wanted to be at MIT, even in the hardest moments. If you don't really want to be here, it's totally possible to be miserable. But it's also possible to have the ride of your life if you're up for it.
posted by Cygnet at 7:27 PM on April 5

Cygnet: Pika?
posted by olinerd at 7:28 PM on April 5

Olinerd: bingo!
posted by Cygnet at 7:29 PM on April 5

Cygnet: Interestingly, pika is, from what I've read and heard, one of the things that stands out for me about MIT. I'm definitely going there for dinner one of my nights at CPW.
posted by Bahro at 7:33 PM on April 5

To be clear, I don't have any direct experience with Olin; I (somewhat reluctantly) crossed it off my list of prospective schools before I got around to visiting. I have been to MIT, but only on purely social occasions, though I did a lot of poking around. So I'm not really in a position to compare/contrast.

However, martinX's bellbottoms and I went to high school together, and I will vouch for her judgment re: MIT. I highly recommend taking her up on her CPW offer; you will learn so, so, SO much more about the place by getting away from the tour groups and activities, and seeing the place through the eyes of an actual student.

The same goes for Olin; spend as much unstructured time there as you can manage before making a decision. The admissions office marketing is not going to be nearly as informative as hanging around and observing.

I'm really serious about this; during my second round of school selection, I made a point of spending significant amounts of time just bopping around campuses by myself. I think that was why I was able to make the right decision that time around, because I had so much more relevant information.

Another aside: One fun thing you can do while wandering around MIT (by yourself) is to find your way to the reading room inside the great dome. (It's not too hard, but there's a bit of a trick to it; it took me about twenty minutes of poking around before I figured it out.)
posted by Commander Rachek at 7:36 PM on April 5

Hey, that's amazing! We'd be psyched to have you! Dinner's at 6:30 every day of the year! There are 3 regular mefites that live at pika, but I'll let them reveal their identities themselves :) We're gonna do floating sushi for CPW, and who knows what else (poi? telephone pictionary?) - it'll be a good time. We will probably have Oliners at dinner, and everybody will be more than happy to talk to you about which school would be best for you. If you have any questions, feel free to MeMail me!
posted by Cygnet at 7:39 PM on April 5

Hey, pikan #2 here.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 7:42 PM on April 5

pikan #3 here. One for all and all for one!
posted by Salvor Hardin at 7:45 PM on April 5

Before I sign off for the evening, this topic (and that of Olin vs other schools) has been brought up often in Olin's College Confidential discussion thread. Here's one of the more relevant posts -- a couple years old, but it's from the perspective of a Wellesley student who spends a lot of time with both Olin and MIT kids.
posted by olinerd at 8:00 PM on April 5

Anyway, late to the party, but maybe I can be a bit helpful: come to CPW. What we're telling you about MIT and Olin is fine, but it won't tell you how you feel when you visit. And I think most of us in this thread have limited experience with the school we didn't go to; for example, I know a lot of startup activity happens at MIT, but if I didn't know the Oliners Cygnet mentioned, I'd have no idea that Olin also has some startups. (I think there's quite a few coming out of Olin, but I don't know.) Anyway, visit Olin, too, if you haven't already (I haven't read everything above); meeting people will tell you what sort of environment both schools are, and that's how you should make your decision. I remember when I visited for CPW, it solidified things in my head: I came home knowing MIT was right for me, and canceled my plans to fly out and visit Stanford; it just felt right. (And I'd visited Stanford before, and been less than thrilled - nothing wrong with it, it just wasn't right for me.)

Also, at the risk of being Captain Pedantic, I should point out that we only know about three of us - there could be other pikans here on Mefi!

Bahro - is that an Uru reference?
posted by spaceman_spiff at 8:01 PM on April 5

Another MIT alum. I ended up choosing between UChicago and MIT, with the latter offering less in financial aid (no scholarships), and despite needing to pay off loans, I've never regretted my decision. My disjointed thoughts on the place:

MIT is larger than Olin, and if you have non-science/engineering interests, it will be easier to pursue them there. While most people have mote's impression - talking about building 18 and course 5 sounds geeky, and engineers have a reputation for being narrowly focused - there are actually some great arts and humanities opportunities. I painted murals, silkscreened posters, learned how to use powertools to build things for Rush (excuse me, REX) in EC and later Senior Haus, booked bands for Steer Roast, helped run Mystery Hunt one year, etc. That's all outside of classes: most of the humanities professors are very well-known in their fields (or more broadly - Junot Diaz is at MIT, for example), and you get a lot of personal attention in humanities classes. Oh, and it's incredibly easy to cross-register with Harvard, Tufts, MassArt, and most of the other Boston colleges if you're interested in specific classes or professors there.

MIT is also right by the Red Line and Central Square and right across the river from Boston. You can get to an incredible number of cool music/art/etc. events via the T or your bicycle. Olin... isn't. School size and proximity to the rest of the world mattered a lot to me; if they matter to you, take this into account.

I'm not sure how undergraduate research at Olin works. At MIT, the UROP program means that pretty much any student interested in working in a lab can get funding to do so. I can't emphasize how incredible this is. Professors are pretty eager to get good UROP students (and don't have to worry about funding); you can try out several labs or work in one for years and you won't need to fit in an extra job to get by. Once you're established at a lab, you can work there during term as welll. Many UROP students end up getting published before they even graduate. This will help you immensely if you end up wanting a Master's or PhD.

Culture-wise, if you think Mystery Hunt, hacks, Steer Roast, etc. are awesome, I think you'd like it there. Particularly in one of the east-side dorms (Raf's stereotypes are broad but also broadly accurate.) I really disagree that "you have a student body that feels guilty about doing anything besides homework or the sorts of extracurriculars that look good on grad school applications." Those people certainly exist, but you're given a great deal of freedom to choose what environment you want to be in. (As you know, the dorms have very distinct cultures, and you can choose yours.) Everyone I chose to spend time with worked very, very hard - that is universal at MIT - but they also spent a great deal of their extracurricular time doing art, engineering crazy stuff, going to concerts, etc. And yeah, the administration's been causing trouble for hackers in the past few years, but 1) hackers are stubborn and 2) MIT's still more friendly towards that kind of culture than any university I can think of, excepting perhaps Caltech.

Name recognition is definitely real. No one I know has had trouble finding (very interesting) jobs. Even the ones at startups have been pretty damn happy building killer robots, working on the original Guitar Hero, etc. MIT's reputation is also international, which is great if you want to work in another country for some time.

All that said: Debt does suck. With an engineering degree, you'll almost certainly end up in a position to pay it off, but that's still a lot of money that could be going towards the rest of your life.

So: Go to CPW (and seriously, spend a lot of time wandering around the dorms and talking to students rather than going to the boring official events.) Visit Olin and do the same. You've got most of the data already, and you know you've got two great options. Now you need to figure out the intangible stuff: do you like the feel of the place? do you like your potential classmates? can you see yourself there for the next four or five years?

Good like, and if you have any questions about MIT, MeMail me. Not a Pikan, but many of my friends are/were.
posted by ubersturm at 8:07 PM on April 5

spaceman_spiff: Yes, I'm definitely coming to CPW. I also spent a weekend at Olin, it's part of their admissions process. While I didn't get to stay with an Olin student, I stayed with a bunch of other 2013 prospies, and really got to know a lot of them. Oh, and yes, that is an Uru reference. I used to be really into Myst/Uru a while back. I'm less so now, but it's remained my online identity on a bunch of places.

jayder: That's not really fair at all. Olin is a new school, but has already come into prominence for the quality of professors and students it attracts. Their admit rate is, off the top of my head, around 10-15%, and their students have gone on to do awesome things after graduating.
posted by Bahro at 8:08 PM on April 5

I think at root the differences I notice between Olin and MIT boil down to small school/big school things -- it's easy to over-generalize and say that, for example, Olin students culturally resemble the Pika/Random/EC faction of MIT, but the fact is that MIT's just a much bigger place (~12x the undergrads), so it's inevitably going to be a little more diverse and you'll be able to find a big chunk that's like-Olin and a big chunk that's not-like-Olin, whatever characteristic you want to use for grouping.

Because of that, I guess the tough question is: Is there a piece of Olin that you really like that you *can't* find at MIT, and vice versa? MIT is a much larger playground but is not necessarily going to be a perfect super-set of Olin -- in particular I'm thinking about Olin's lean towards innovative ways of teaching engineering, which MIT has only recently started steering towards (much like a aircraft carrier "steers"). On the flip side, I'm pretty sure Olin doesn't have its own nuclear reactor.
posted by range at 8:28 PM on April 5

I'm a grad student at MIT. I have heard that the letters MIT matter as much or more thanor BSc and sometimes even PhD.

I can't speak for the undergraduate experience here but I went to the more expensive university I was considering for undergrad and thought of that money as an investment, not an expense. I think MIT has a stronger reputation that will yield a higher return.

I know a guy who goes to Olin and much of the commentary in this thread about the culture there rings true based on the stories he's told me. I have never heard him say a bad thing about Olin but I know he is applying to MIT for grad studies (or did for this fall).
posted by KevCed at 9:14 PM on April 5

...as much or more than BSc or PhD...
posted by KevCed at 9:15 PM on April 5

The infrastructure (libraries, labs, facilities) that large research universities have is utterly incredible, and no smaller school I've seen (admittedly, only on the west coast) can compare. The research opportunities, if you can make yourself get out & talk to profs, are incredible, and there's basically guaranteed to be a lab that fits you Very Well for whatever you want to do. That said, your classes will be very fast paced and very hard, and in general there are too many people around for the faculty and TAs to really care that much about how you do in them, unless you're proactive about getting help. My guess is that if you're not a terribly aggressive person with carving out space for yourself (poorly worded, but hopefully the meaning gets across) you'd learn more and enjoy yourself more at Olin. If you want to go balls-to-the-wall, go to MIT and have a blast.
posted by devilsbrigade at 10:21 PM on April 5

One of the recurring arguments in this thread for going to MIT is that its global reputation opens lots of doors. I have no doubt that's true. Now ask yourself, is that the of choice you want to make? Do you think you need those three letters? Do you want to go to school with people who made the same choice?

There is a real difference between a little school like Olin, and a research university like MIT, but all those undergrad research opportunities at MIT people point to? Harvey Mudd College, a little 600 person school with ~80 faculty in California beats MIT in terms of percentage of graduates who go on to get PhDs in Math, Computer Science, Engineering and Chemistry and a ~1200 student liberal arts college in Oregon isn't gar behind. You can get a lot of good hands on experience at a small college, and you'll probably get better access to professors.

For someone like you who has a choice between MIT and another great but not as well known or connected school, those letters probably mean less than some would have you believe. For example, despite having fewer resources, less name recognition, and a much smaller alumni network than CalTech or MIT, Harvey Mudd grads have median starting and mid-career salaries that aren't far off those of graduations from larger, better known schools. A study in the 90's of people who'd been accepted to Ivy League schools, but chose to matriculate at a less prestigious institution also showed that the school's reputation matters less than the intelligence and drive of the student in determining financial success.

"I'd rather do something at a startup or a small, new company than somewhere established or (blegh) Wall Street. But if I graduate from MIT with $80,000 in debt, I'm worried that I won't be in the financial situation to take the risks inherent with a startup or new company."

Go to Olin. If you continue to live like a student after graduation, the money you save could give you a 5 years of full-time focus on starting your own company, etc.
posted by Good Brain at 1:34 AM on April 6

So I worked with range's wife (and lived in the same floor of the same dorm); lived two very loud rooms down from uberstrum; took classes, taught classes, and did LSC with raf; and at one point (grad school) seriously considered moving to where all the other people are living now. At the same time, I took classes from and did research with Olin people (who were working at MIT).

Besides all the feedback you're getting from us old people, I really think raf is on the right track with asking yourself a few less quantifiable questions. To his, I'd add:
1) What are your international interests? MIT has HUGE partnership opportunities while you're in school, you can keep using them after school, and everyone knows MIT even outside of the US. It's the door-opening thing. You can hate it, but it's life.
2) What does the school's future look like? For example, MIT has taken serious hits to its endowment, and some of the fun may be cut (e.g. some varsity sports, I assume IM will also see cuts). I have no idea how sheltered Olin is financially, or what campus life issues there are now.

Also, your spreadsheet is awesome. But in the end, if the numbers say go one place, and you still can't get yourself to put the acceptance form in the mail, your heart really wants to go somewhere else.
posted by whatzit at 4:54 AM on April 6

W/o expressing an opinion on either school (of which I have none that matter)
Remember - you are 17-18 years old. You will change a lot in the next few years. One of those changes might be what area of study you find interesting. Don't go to a place where you might not be able to deal with this.

(blegh) Wall Street

Yeah I said the same thing when I was a Freshman. Things change.
posted by JPD at 5:16 AM on April 6

A warning about CPW: it will be extremely fun, but keep in that most of the stuff that you'll see only happens during CPW and rush. In fact, lots of students here look forward to CPW all year specifically because it's so different from normal life. It will be hard, especially when at any given time there will be twelve different awesome fun parties to check out, but try to take some time when you're here to figure out if you'd like it at MIT during the rest of the year. Approach students who aren't at the events, and ask them whether they feel like they made the right choice. (A friend of mine plans to spend as much time as possible in the Bexley courtyard for this purpose). Look for people wearing Campaign for Students shirts (although a lot of those kids can be a bit histrionic). Be a nuisance. Even if they act like they're too busy to talk to you, they'll eventually give you a better picture of the institute than the people at Random who are hosting the DDR marathon.
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 5:41 AM on April 6

Harvey Mudd College, a little 600 person school with ~80 faculty in California beats MIT in terms of percentage of graduates who go on to get PhDs in Math, Computer Science, Engineering and Chemistry and a ~1200 student liberal arts college in Oregon isn't gar behind.

Harvey Mudd is an awesome place, and I probably would have gone there if I hadn't gone to MIT, but query whether sending more people to PhD programs is actually a good thing. I suspect that some of it is a function of other opportunities available to graduates of a school like MIT: there's less need to go to grad school, unless you actually want to become a professor.
posted by raf at 6:01 AM on April 6

Do you think you need those three letters? Do you want to go to school with people who made the same choice?

I'm not sure I agree with this. Many MIT applicants have applied to and got in to several great schools (including that little liberal arts school up Mass Ave), so it's certainly not the case that people pick MIT solely because it has the most prestigious name. I ultimately chose MIT because of the research opportunities and the student culture. However. The name-brand effect is there. You'll still need to do good work, make good impressions during interviews, publish, etc. You will probably find it easier to get people to take that first glance at your resume, however, and (particularly for those of us with student loans to pay off), getting a job does matter.

Plus, as I said earlier, name recognition can be an advantage if you're considering working/researching outside of the US. It can be difficult to accurately judge academic records from a very different system, and so I think potential employers lean a little more heavily on school reputation.

There is a real difference between a little school like Olin, and a research university like MIT, but all those undergrad research opportunities at MIT people point to? Harvey Mudd College, a little 600 person school with ~80 faculty in California beats MIT in terms of percentage of graduates who go on to get PhDs in Math, Computer Science, Engineering and Chemistry and a ~1200 student liberal arts college in Oregon isn't gar behind.

Measuring school worth in PhDs is downright silly. Doctorates are necessary in some fields (biochemistry, I'm looking at you), but in most engineering disciplines, it's easy to start doing really cool work without anything but a B.S. or a Master's. Most of my CS/EE friends are doing cutting-edge research (in industry) with those degrees. Doctorates are great (hey, I'm getting one); not having one doesn't make you less successful and it doesn't make your work less important. It's also silly to think that (paid!) research opportunities matter only in context of going on to a PhD; they're valuable in their own right, and a big school like MIT simply has more resources and opportunities to provide them.

The school's reputation matters less than the intelligence and drive of the student in determining financial success.

I don't think that financial success is the only measure of success - heck, those kids getting PhDs? Most of them will be less financially successful than their peers in industry. I also don't think anyone was saying that a brand name matters more than being a smart, experienced scientist. (And thank God for that!) It will help convince potential employers to take that first look at you, call you back, interview you, etc. You have to do the rest, and if you're unqualified, the brand name won't help.

And I go for weird music, not loud music these days, whatzit. I'm a much much better neighbor than I was as a frosh, I promise...
posted by ubersturm at 7:44 AM on April 6

Regarding preview/admit weekends, I'd try very hard to avoid going for the actual event. Tell them you have a conflict, they'll schedule you in for another date range where you'll be able to see what the students are like, and not what all the prospectives are like. I did that for 3 schools I applied to, and while I occasionally got, "oh, we met over admit weekend and became bestest best best friends and then started dating and life is wonderful" I really don't feel like I missed much, and it gave me a much better picture of life and work there.
posted by devilsbrigade at 8:51 AM on April 6

I went to Olin College. I had an amazing time, although for me, I wasn't torn between it and MIT. MIT's size put me off when I was a freshman, and, now that I'm in graduate school at UC Berkeley (is that prestigious enough to prove that Olin grads can get hired/accepted just about anywhere?), I realize that making friends at a big school actually is really hard.
As for paying for name recognition, I think that anyone who believes they can get accepted in this economic climate just from having gone to a major institution has another thing coming. You need to be able to demonstrate the skills and accomplishments your education has given you; not only in the cool projects you do (and you'll do way cool projects at both MIT and Olin), but in your professional and people skills. I think Olin might have the upper hand in preparing you to give professional presentations and network with professionals in your field; it's built into the way the school works.
One other point in Olin's favor is this: MIT graduates work in a lot of amazing jobs, but Olin alumni have something of a stronger tie to one another, even if they've never met. If you want to get a job where an Olin alum is working, they'll likely know about the classes you took, how hard they were relative to how well you did, and who taught them, and be able to recommend you to their employers even if they don't know you. That's the benefit of only having existed for a few years.
As I recall, the Aaron Schwartz thing was kind of a huge debacle (I think he represented himself as a prospective student and then griped about how fake people seemed). There will be people you like and don't like anywhere you go. I was never forced to be around anyone I didn't like at Olin, although I definitely found a few people I didn't work well with, and it really isn't imperative that you know everyone. If you generally keep your own counsel and don't broadcast your personal problems, people won't gossip about you. The community is tight by nature but at the same time very respectful.
Having seen parties at 'real college', I can also attest that Olin parties, while perhaps less frequent, are better organized, result in less bodily harm, and are more fun. You can generally relax in the knowledge that no one is going to make you do anything you don't want to, take a swing at you, or bounce a glass bottle off of your head.
I can't say enough about having your own bathroom, also. It makes college feel like home. For me, owning my own space was hugely comforting.
I acknowledge MIT's many benefits which have been enumerated here; it's a cool place. In the end, the decision really is up to you.
I mean, MIT does have an Anna's Taqueria. That is a really big draw.
posted by csriley at 4:01 PM on April 9

I went to Olin for undergrad and am at MIT for grad school.

I have lots to say about this, but given the length of this thread it's probably going to be information overload.

I have no regrets: I think MIT is a great place to be a grad student, and Olin was a great place to be an undergrad. Feel free to me-mail me if you have specific questions. If you end up connecting with Olinerd, let me know - we used to live together, and I'd be happy to join you guys for lunch.

I'm of course biased — I feel a stronger connection to Olin than to MIT — but I think as an undergrad, having a school that's focused on the undergrad experience is a really big deal. There aren't grad students around to draw away the attention of the faculty, so you get a much more intimate educational experience that I think will serve you well wherever you go.

Please do feel free to email me if you have specific questions, though. I've seen both sides of this and might be able to provide some both-sides-of-the-fence comparison. Of course, you can always do what I did and go to both schools eventually. :D
posted by heresiarch at 4:01 PM on April 9

Offer acceptances are due this week, right? Which school did you choose?
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 3:55 PM on April 30