Talk her out of it?
April 3, 2009 8:55 PM Subscribe
How, and should I, breach the subject of my best friend's perhaps ill-advised marriage?
I've known this girl since middle school (we're both 24). Yes, I've had feelings for her in the past and we've "hooked up," but nothing more than seeing each other every day for the past, oh, five or six years. We are both what most anyone would call ultra-liberal (this becomes important).
Now, she's engaged to the boyfriend she had first at 14 or so. She's dated other guys seriously, but drifted back with him a couple of times. This guy is what most people would describe as ultra-conservative. Homophobic, old Texas oil money, in the Air Force because of his dad, and in general he's, let's say, not a smart guy. He's got pictures of his parents with George W. Bush, for chrissakes. It is my perception that if an identical person drifted near our circle of friends she would find him totally repellent. On top of this I can't remember her being around him for more than a couple of days since we've been close.
Now here's the thing: He's stationed far enough away that when she moves I and the rest of her friends will only see her once or twice a year, and she'll be surrounded not only by people she doesn't know, but the kinds of people that hang out with her fiance. In fact, the friends he's brought around in the past have immediately alienated themselves from all of us. Once, I had to knock out his blind drunk best friend as we were leaving a party because he was attacking random passers-by.
I don't know how she's going to be able to deal with this separation and isolation. I don't know how I'm going to deal with this separation and isolation. I don't understand why she's doing this at all, other than the possibility of fulfilling a vestigial pre-adolescent fantasy. She's aware of my extreme distaste for this guy and we deal with it by not bringing it up. What should I do (for either of us)? What can I do?
I've known this girl since middle school (we're both 24). Yes, I've had feelings for her in the past and we've "hooked up," but nothing more than seeing each other every day for the past, oh, five or six years. We are both what most anyone would call ultra-liberal (this becomes important).
Now, she's engaged to the boyfriend she had first at 14 or so. She's dated other guys seriously, but drifted back with him a couple of times. This guy is what most people would describe as ultra-conservative. Homophobic, old Texas oil money, in the Air Force because of his dad, and in general he's, let's say, not a smart guy. He's got pictures of his parents with George W. Bush, for chrissakes. It is my perception that if an identical person drifted near our circle of friends she would find him totally repellent. On top of this I can't remember her being around him for more than a couple of days since we've been close.
Now here's the thing: He's stationed far enough away that when she moves I and the rest of her friends will only see her once or twice a year, and she'll be surrounded not only by people she doesn't know, but the kinds of people that hang out with her fiance. In fact, the friends he's brought around in the past have immediately alienated themselves from all of us. Once, I had to knock out his blind drunk best friend as we were leaving a party because he was attacking random passers-by.
I don't know how she's going to be able to deal with this separation and isolation. I don't know how I'm going to deal with this separation and isolation. I don't understand why she's doing this at all, other than the possibility of fulfilling a vestigial pre-adolescent fantasy. She's aware of my extreme distaste for this guy and we deal with it by not bringing it up. What should I do (for either of us)? What can I do?
You want your friend to pick her significant others on the basis of your political preferences? Get a life, dude. Nobody forces you to hang out with her busband, and if she thinks better of it she can alway get divorced.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:10 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:10 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
Should I breach the subject of my best friend's perhaps ill-advised marriage?
No. Doing so can only lead to tears, and perhaps a broken friendship. Tell her instead that you'll support her whatever she chooses in her life, and that you'll always be there for her (if that is true, of course).
posted by b33j at 9:15 PM on April 3, 2009
No. Doing so can only lead to tears, and perhaps a broken friendship. Tell her instead that you'll support her whatever she chooses in her life, and that you'll always be there for her (if that is true, of course).
posted by b33j at 9:15 PM on April 3, 2009
I generally urge people to stay out of their friend's bad decisions. And I will add that being political opposites does not doom a relationship. But she is only 24, which is not horribly young to get married, but it's still down there.
From the female perspective, I can see that there are probably things that attract her to him - I assume he's strong, manly and rich.
I would recommend sitting down and talking with her. Ask her why she decided to marry him. Why she thinks he can make her happy for the rest of her life. Get her perspective on him. Perhaps there is something you're not seeing. Maybe he treats her like a princess. Maybe they have a truce on the politics. Ask her about the move and how that might effect her. I'm sure she's scared and excited, and as her best friend, you should be there for her. You can't make or unmake her mind up for her, she has to make her own mistakes - if they are indeed mistakes. Maybe what you'll learn is that they have an amazing relationship. Maybe she's terrified and doesn't know why. Either way, your job is to be there for her, not change her mind. If you try to, you may lose her.
posted by anniek at 9:15 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
From the female perspective, I can see that there are probably things that attract her to him - I assume he's strong, manly and rich.
I would recommend sitting down and talking with her. Ask her why she decided to marry him. Why she thinks he can make her happy for the rest of her life. Get her perspective on him. Perhaps there is something you're not seeing. Maybe he treats her like a princess. Maybe they have a truce on the politics. Ask her about the move and how that might effect her. I'm sure she's scared and excited, and as her best friend, you should be there for her. You can't make or unmake her mind up for her, she has to make her own mistakes - if they are indeed mistakes. Maybe what you'll learn is that they have an amazing relationship. Maybe she's terrified and doesn't know why. Either way, your job is to be there for her, not change her mind. If you try to, you may lose her.
posted by anniek at 9:15 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
[scene: a porch, or a back kitchen, or anywhere casual and somewhat personal, where you two have at least a few moments alone in the evening, and there is beer.]
You: Wow. So you're really doin' it, huh? You're finally getting married.
Her: Yeah. Can't believe it myself. It's awesome, though.
[You sip your beer, then lean back and squint at the ceiling, smiling all the while.]
You: So... do you really love this guy? I mean, do you really believe he's going to take care of you?
Her: Yeah... yeah, I do.
You: Well... okay. [grin] Congratulations, kid.
[Never bring it up again.]
posted by koeselitz at 9:26 PM on April 3, 2009 [13 favorites]
You: Wow. So you're really doin' it, huh? You're finally getting married.
Her: Yeah. Can't believe it myself. It's awesome, though.
[You sip your beer, then lean back and squint at the ceiling, smiling all the while.]
You: So... do you really love this guy? I mean, do you really believe he's going to take care of you?
Her: Yeah... yeah, I do.
You: Well... okay. [grin] Congratulations, kid.
[Never bring it up again.]
posted by koeselitz at 9:26 PM on April 3, 2009 [13 favorites]
[You have a conflict of interest. She knows it. You know it. That's why neither of you have talked about it. So be careful, and know that the ritual of 'you love him, right? then I support you.' is as far as you can go with this.]
posted by koeselitz at 9:29 PM on April 3, 2009
posted by koeselitz at 9:29 PM on April 3, 2009
This is going to sound dumb, but maybe the only way she'll realize he's not good for her (if indeed he is not), is to marry him, and be stuck with only him in some place where she knows nobody. Then perhaps they will divorce and she will never see him again. Not that that's ideal, but some people don't confront the reality of a choice until it hits them for real.
If this happens, and you tell her of your original misgivings, she will probably ask why you didn't tell her before it was too late. Hindsight is 20/20. (I've kind of had this exact thing happen with a scumbag family member marrying a really nice person and it not working out well. However, if you do tell her before it's too late, she will probably not listen to you, and it will make things weird in your friendship.
posted by fructose at 9:30 PM on April 3, 2009
If this happens, and you tell her of your original misgivings, she will probably ask why you didn't tell her before it was too late. Hindsight is 20/20. (I've kind of had this exact thing happen with a scumbag family member marrying a really nice person and it not working out well. However, if you do tell her before it's too late, she will probably not listen to you, and it will make things weird in your friendship.
posted by fructose at 9:30 PM on April 3, 2009
He's got pictures of his parents with George W. Bush, for chrissakes.
This is a bad thing? What are you, 12?
Grow up & butt out.
posted by mrt at 9:36 PM on April 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is a bad thing? What are you, 12?
Grow up & butt out.
posted by mrt at 9:36 PM on April 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
seeing each other every day for the past, oh, five or six years
She's aware of my extreme distaste for this guy and we deal with it by not bringing it up.
She knows how you feel -- about the guy, and about her. I'm sorry.
posted by palliser at 9:39 PM on April 3, 2009
She's aware of my extreme distaste for this guy and we deal with it by not bringing it up.
She knows how you feel -- about the guy, and about her. I'm sorry.
posted by palliser at 9:39 PM on April 3, 2009
My wife and I are political opposites. We rarely talk politics. It works very well for us because we love each other and have so many other things in common. If one of her friends had told her not to marry me (or mine her) I think we both would have been upset. As it turns out, I am now good friends with her friends because they see I care about Mrs. Gunn and because despite my differing beliefs, I am a good guy.
You are not marrying this guy, your friend is. Stay the fuck out of it and let her make either the best decision of her life or the worst on her own.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:40 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
You are not marrying this guy, your friend is. Stay the fuck out of it and let her make either the best decision of her life or the worst on her own.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:40 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
My answer is in two parts -- an illustrative story and a question.
1. I didn't like my best friend's SO when I first met him. I was convinced he was all wrong for her, that he wasn't being good to her, that he wasn't the right one for her. I debated telling her that I didn't like her boyfriend, even though they were living together. I finally decided that, you know, she's an adult and she makes her own decisions, and maybe there are facets to her personality that I don't know about that he complements, and...I'd be there if she needed me and said there was a problem, but I was going to butt out until then. Even so, even right before their wedding, I had a suspcion that years from now I'd be letting her crash on my couch because they had problems.
Ten years passed. They had a daughter. I went to visit them a month after their daughter was born. I stayed with them a couple days, and got to watch him "in action". And as I did, I realized -- I had been completely and totally wrong about the guy all along.
And when I realized that, I was also so, so relieved that I had never said anything to her -- because saying something to her would have hurt her terribly, and I would have been wrong about it, and I would have hurt her needlessly, and I wouldn't do that for all the world. And I managed not to have done that.
This is the same case. You don't know everything about their relationship; your friend does. Trust that she's making the best choice she knows how to make, and be ready if she does fall, but also be open to being proved wrong -- and when you do, you'll be grateful you didn't cause drama earlier.
2. I want you to read these sentences a sec.
Yes, I've had feelings for her in the past and we've "hooked up," but nothing more than seeing each other every day for the past, oh, five or six years.
It is my perception that if an identical person drifted near our circle of friends she would find him totally repellent.
I don't know how I'm going to deal with this separation and isolation.
Dude, it sounds to me like you still have feelings for her, and that you are making this all about you. I'm sorry you're going to miss her, but - she is getting what she thinks she needs. The way to be a friend is to support her, not hold her back because you need to see her every day. Friends don't get that possessive, unless they want to be more than friends.
I would ask yourself what is the REAL reason you want to talk her out of this, and once you figure that out, ask yourself whether you still think it would be a good idea to risk your friendship by asking her to give up her engagement to satisfy your crush.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
1. I didn't like my best friend's SO when I first met him. I was convinced he was all wrong for her, that he wasn't being good to her, that he wasn't the right one for her. I debated telling her that I didn't like her boyfriend, even though they were living together. I finally decided that, you know, she's an adult and she makes her own decisions, and maybe there are facets to her personality that I don't know about that he complements, and...I'd be there if she needed me and said there was a problem, but I was going to butt out until then. Even so, even right before their wedding, I had a suspcion that years from now I'd be letting her crash on my couch because they had problems.
Ten years passed. They had a daughter. I went to visit them a month after their daughter was born. I stayed with them a couple days, and got to watch him "in action". And as I did, I realized -- I had been completely and totally wrong about the guy all along.
And when I realized that, I was also so, so relieved that I had never said anything to her -- because saying something to her would have hurt her terribly, and I would have been wrong about it, and I would have hurt her needlessly, and I wouldn't do that for all the world. And I managed not to have done that.
This is the same case. You don't know everything about their relationship; your friend does. Trust that she's making the best choice she knows how to make, and be ready if she does fall, but also be open to being proved wrong -- and when you do, you'll be grateful you didn't cause drama earlier.
2. I want you to read these sentences a sec.
Yes, I've had feelings for her in the past and we've "hooked up," but nothing more than seeing each other every day for the past, oh, five or six years.
It is my perception that if an identical person drifted near our circle of friends she would find him totally repellent.
I don't know how I'm going to deal with this separation and isolation.
Dude, it sounds to me like you still have feelings for her, and that you are making this all about you. I'm sorry you're going to miss her, but - she is getting what she thinks she needs. The way to be a friend is to support her, not hold her back because you need to see her every day. Friends don't get that possessive, unless they want to be more than friends.
I would ask yourself what is the REAL reason you want to talk her out of this, and once you figure that out, ask yourself whether you still think it would be a good idea to risk your friendship by asking her to give up her engagement to satisfy your crush.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
He's got pictures of his parents with George W. Bush, for chrissakes.
This is a bad thing? What are you, 12?
When I went back to Sarajevo for the first time after the war, I was embarrassed and repelled to enter an old teacher's house in an outlying town and see a picture of her husband with Slobodan Milosevic. I think my feelings were understandable if one knows anything about Milosevic's illegal and hateful actions and activities. And frankly, I don't see a huge difference between Milosevic and GWB - a question of degree and openness is all - and I say that as someone who lost parents largely as the result of the former's insane and dangerous rule. To many of us, yes, any symbolic celebration of Dubya's existence would be a pretty bad and shameful thing.
But that's an aside. I've got to agree with everyone that you're pretty stuck with no way out. Weirder marriages have worked out, so you never know. But it's possible that things won't work out and she'll come to what yo believe are her senses, and good luck to you when and if she does. But in the meantime, stay friends and try not to think about it too much.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:10 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
This is a bad thing? What are you, 12?
When I went back to Sarajevo for the first time after the war, I was embarrassed and repelled to enter an old teacher's house in an outlying town and see a picture of her husband with Slobodan Milosevic. I think my feelings were understandable if one knows anything about Milosevic's illegal and hateful actions and activities. And frankly, I don't see a huge difference between Milosevic and GWB - a question of degree and openness is all - and I say that as someone who lost parents largely as the result of the former's insane and dangerous rule. To many of us, yes, any symbolic celebration of Dubya's existence would be a pretty bad and shameful thing.
But that's an aside. I've got to agree with everyone that you're pretty stuck with no way out. Weirder marriages have worked out, so you never know. But it's possible that things won't work out and she'll come to what yo believe are her senses, and good luck to you when and if she does. But in the meantime, stay friends and try not to think about it too much.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:10 PM on April 3, 2009 [5 favorites]
There's something very odd about the background information you have provided, and that is that nothing you have said has any bearing on what your friend's relationship is like with her intended. Okay, you don't like the guy. He's homophobic, he's stupid, he has parents who like Dubya, and he has boorish friends. You've disliked better people for less reason.
But you're not marrying the guy. Your friend is. How does she feel about this guy? How does he treat her? How do they interact when they're together? Because if they love each other, enjoy being together, and treat each other kindly and with respect, they may very well be able to make a go of it regardless of how differently they may vote. (And you know... maybe your friend isn't as liberal as you think she is. You're both young. It's easy to take on a patina of either liberalism or conservatism at that age based on whom you hang out with.) And in this case, you don't have grounds for saying anything but "I'm going to miss you a lot once you get married and move away."
On the other hand, if you've watched the two of them together and see bad signs, such as him being controlling, putting her down verbally, passing out his number to other women when she's in the bathroom, substance abuse or gambling issues, or any such red flags, you can say something. Once. Very tactfully.
It may not have any effect at all, but as the wedding ceremony goes, speak now, or forever hold your peace. At least you'll know you did your best to give your friend some guidance. What she does with it is up to her.
posted by orange swan at 11:37 PM on April 3, 2009
But you're not marrying the guy. Your friend is. How does she feel about this guy? How does he treat her? How do they interact when they're together? Because if they love each other, enjoy being together, and treat each other kindly and with respect, they may very well be able to make a go of it regardless of how differently they may vote. (And you know... maybe your friend isn't as liberal as you think she is. You're both young. It's easy to take on a patina of either liberalism or conservatism at that age based on whom you hang out with.) And in this case, you don't have grounds for saying anything but "I'm going to miss you a lot once you get married and move away."
On the other hand, if you've watched the two of them together and see bad signs, such as him being controlling, putting her down verbally, passing out his number to other women when she's in the bathroom, substance abuse or gambling issues, or any such red flags, you can say something. Once. Very tactfully.
It may not have any effect at all, but as the wedding ceremony goes, speak now, or forever hold your peace. At least you'll know you did your best to give your friend some guidance. What she does with it is up to her.
posted by orange swan at 11:37 PM on April 3, 2009
speak now, and then forever hold your peace: you have to accept her husband, you do not have to unquestioningly accept her fiance. this is someone awfully close to you if you've hung out almost every other day for 5 or 6 years. she's your friend, you're looking out for her: that is what friends do! a friend tells you, gently, kindly, "hey, i need you to explain to me why you are marrying Mr.Guy because to me you seem like complete opposites."
i have seen friends fall madly in love, and have babbies with, and get married to people with whom it fell apart with once a couple years passed and it became crystal clear that they were very, very different (especially people who married or had babbies in their early 20s). maybe your buddy is about to make a huge mistake. then again, maybe this is really what she wants, and that is what is difficult for you to grapple with.
so open your mouth and speak your doubts. you are risking a bit of a blow up by confronting this, but better now than after it has festered for years and made you feel distant and awkward. don't bring it up in a burn-it-all no-holds-back way: keep in mind that she will very likely go and marry this guy anyways and you will have to live with whatever you say. be honest and be a friend, and also let her convince you she is totally level-headed and in a good place with all this. she may say something that puts you at ease. some of my longest friendships have been saved by the (necessary) blow up that begins with saying the thing that you "couldn't possibly say".
posted by tamarack at 11:49 PM on April 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
i have seen friends fall madly in love, and have babbies with, and get married to people with whom it fell apart with once a couple years passed and it became crystal clear that they were very, very different (especially people who married or had babbies in their early 20s). maybe your buddy is about to make a huge mistake. then again, maybe this is really what she wants, and that is what is difficult for you to grapple with.
so open your mouth and speak your doubts. you are risking a bit of a blow up by confronting this, but better now than after it has festered for years and made you feel distant and awkward. don't bring it up in a burn-it-all no-holds-back way: keep in mind that she will very likely go and marry this guy anyways and you will have to live with whatever you say. be honest and be a friend, and also let her convince you she is totally level-headed and in a good place with all this. she may say something that puts you at ease. some of my longest friendships have been saved by the (necessary) blow up that begins with saying the thing that you "couldn't possibly say".
posted by tamarack at 11:49 PM on April 3, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think a person's politics are important in terms of having a relationship (mine tend to be quite librul fwiw), but that's only one among many factors -- physical attraction, personality, shared interests, etc. And let's be honest -- money and "marrying into" a wealthy, connected family can be its own draw.
So don't say anything. It's her marriage and life, not yours.
posted by bardic at 12:38 AM on April 4, 2009
So don't say anything. It's her marriage and life, not yours.
posted by bardic at 12:38 AM on April 4, 2009
Let me start by briefly introducing myself and relating a recent anecdote from my own life. I'm about as left-leaning as they come, a librarian who owns one of those Obama t-shirts and tries to be fairly active in supporting causes that I feel matter. The boy I'm dating right now is not my usual "type" at all. The second time we ever had dinner, when we were just new friends getting to know each other, he told me that he was seriously undecided as to who he wanted to vote for for president in this past election, and was leaning toward McCain. He also told me that he had, until the past few years, been in ROTC and intended to join the Air Force so he could become a pilot. Previously, I might have decided that these things were dealbreakers and called it a day, because they are different from who I am and therefore were not on my invisible potential friend or boyfriend checklist. This time, however, I decided to be a grownup lady and give the guy a shot, because he seemed cool. Months later, and I've learned that not only is he someone whose thoroughly-considered opinions I can respect--even when they differ from my own--but he is also a well-rounded and interesting person who composes piano music and plays the accordion, takes amazing pictures and makes amazing films, and has a record collection that would make you cry. He is also the kind of guy who makes time to hang out with his little brothers and will take me antique shopping or call out of work to take care of me when I'm sick.
This question isn't about me, but I wanted to make a point. People are messy bundles of opinions, likes and dislikes. They don't always match up neatly, and that's how it's supposed to be. Judging them out of hand because you don't agree with the people their parents have posed with in pictures, or because you don't share their political leanings or career choices, is a good way to rob yourself of potential friends and loved ones who may, when considered as whole and messy people rather than one-dimensional demographic data points, be worth knowing.
You can't, and shouldn't, make those determinations for your friend. If her fiance is different from you, or the person you would choose for her, that does not mean she should not marry him. Maybe she sees some things in the bundle that you don't. Additionally, I can't help but agree with other posters who have pointed out that this sounds like the problem might be more about your fear of losing her to another man in a permanent, substantial way than about your concern over a bad match with this particular fellow. Notice that you didn't say you had feelings for you--you have had. Do you STILL have those feelings? If she were still getting married, but to someone else you liked and approved of--if she were still potentially moving across the world with a guy you adored--would you still have those nagging worries about losing her and about whether you should talk her out of the engagement? Is this worth addressing with yourself, and then maybe with her if you deem those feelings important enough to risk your friendship? My thought would be "yes". If not--if you choose not to rock the boat--then all you can do is congratulate her and be there for her, but as a friend who respects her autonomy and wants her to be happy, whoever that happens to be with.
posted by teamparka at 12:49 AM on April 4, 2009 [5 favorites]
This question isn't about me, but I wanted to make a point. People are messy bundles of opinions, likes and dislikes. They don't always match up neatly, and that's how it's supposed to be. Judging them out of hand because you don't agree with the people their parents have posed with in pictures, or because you don't share their political leanings or career choices, is a good way to rob yourself of potential friends and loved ones who may, when considered as whole and messy people rather than one-dimensional demographic data points, be worth knowing.
You can't, and shouldn't, make those determinations for your friend. If her fiance is different from you, or the person you would choose for her, that does not mean she should not marry him. Maybe she sees some things in the bundle that you don't. Additionally, I can't help but agree with other posters who have pointed out that this sounds like the problem might be more about your fear of losing her to another man in a permanent, substantial way than about your concern over a bad match with this particular fellow. Notice that you didn't say you had feelings for you--you have had. Do you STILL have those feelings? If she were still getting married, but to someone else you liked and approved of--if she were still potentially moving across the world with a guy you adored--would you still have those nagging worries about losing her and about whether you should talk her out of the engagement? Is this worth addressing with yourself, and then maybe with her if you deem those feelings important enough to risk your friendship? My thought would be "yes". If not--if you choose not to rock the boat--then all you can do is congratulate her and be there for her, but as a friend who respects her autonomy and wants her to be happy, whoever that happens to be with.
posted by teamparka at 12:49 AM on April 4, 2009 [5 favorites]
I think the root of your problem lies in your continuing, admitted emotional attachment to this girl and what her attraction to her fiance could mean about the person she is or is becoming, not necessarily that this guy is actually wrong for her. You're both still young and finding your place in the world. I think you recognize what an alignment with a dude like you describe could mean for her character and preferences and you don't like it. That's all well and fine but coming at the situation from this oddly paternalistic stance of questioning whether she really knows what's good for her and determining that you actually might know better will only alienate her and ruin your friendship.
This isn't a situation where he's harming her physically or emotionally or otherwise shows signs of being destructive. His values just differ from your own. She's made her choice about her SO. If you want her in your life, you need to accept that and support her. If you can't stomach it, you need to let her go.
posted by smallstatic at 1:15 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
This isn't a situation where he's harming her physically or emotionally or otherwise shows signs of being destructive. His values just differ from your own. She's made her choice about her SO. If you want her in your life, you need to accept that and support her. If you can't stomach it, you need to let her go.
posted by smallstatic at 1:15 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
I feel very sorry for your friend, but there's nothing you can do. Love is blind sometimes. Just try to stay friends with her and hope that it either works out or she divorces him before they have kids. The worst case scenario is that they have kids and then decide it isn't working out.
posted by HappyEngineer at 1:42 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by HappyEngineer at 1:42 AM on April 4, 2009
currently in the US, and especially amongst it's younger members there is the perception that politics is paramount to everything... It doesn't have to be, and those that transcend it are much better off then those of us that walk around with a chip on our shoulder aimed at half the other population.
posted by edgeways at 2:10 AM on April 4, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by edgeways at 2:10 AM on April 4, 2009 [3 favorites]
No.. the worst case scenario is that either one of them turns abusive. Kids can survive a divorce just fine.. most do.
posted by edgeways at 2:11 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by edgeways at 2:11 AM on April 4, 2009
This guy is what most people would describe as ultra-conservative. Homophobic, old Texas oil money, in the Air Force because of his dad, and in general he's, let's say, not a smart guy. He's got pictures of his parents with George W. Bush, for chrissakes.
Homophobic is bad. Old Texas oil money is not his fault (even if you see it as a fault), in the airforce - so what? Not smart - so what? Pictures of his parents with Dubya - he didn't choose his parents, did he? It's not something he has control over.
I'm not really seeing the same flaws here that you're seeing; just someone who is different from you.
Maybe an angle to take would be 'I'm really going to miss you when you move away, how do you think you're going to find it, being away from all your friends and hanging out with just his friends?'
posted by Infinite Jest at 3:38 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Homophobic is bad. Old Texas oil money is not his fault (even if you see it as a fault), in the airforce - so what? Not smart - so what? Pictures of his parents with Dubya - he didn't choose his parents, did he? It's not something he has control over.
I'm not really seeing the same flaws here that you're seeing; just someone who is different from you.
Maybe an angle to take would be 'I'm really going to miss you when you move away, how do you think you're going to find it, being away from all your friends and hanging out with just his friends?'
posted by Infinite Jest at 3:38 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
In my circle of friends, we've kind of got a rule that you've got one shot to really make your point if you think someone's about to marry the wrong person. I don't know if you have that kind of relationship with her, but let me explain.
This one girl was going to marry a guy with whom she would always have an asymmetrical relationship - she would ALWAYS make more money than him, and frankly she would always be a LOT smarter than him. And, he was a jerk. Everyone was uncomfortable with them getting married. People talked to her much as you are thinking of talking to your friend, but she still did it, and now she's divorced.
People took their one shot and it made no difference. The thing with taking your one shot is that's all you get. You say your piece, and then you say you're going to love her regardless, and that you will stand by her regardless, and then you shut your mouth and eat cake at the reception.
However, my feeling is that if you think you can talk to her in a way that will not damage your relationship, then you should do it, especially if this guy gives you bad vibes. This may be just me, but you friends are there to tell you when they think you're about to fuck up, and then stand by you even if you actually DO fuck up. If it turns out that this guy is totally cool and you're wrong, it's okay to be wrong, but if time proves you right and you don't say anything, you'll feel awful. (Never say "I told you so," either. Just show up if you have to and do what needs to be done.)
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:25 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
This one girl was going to marry a guy with whom she would always have an asymmetrical relationship - she would ALWAYS make more money than him, and frankly she would always be a LOT smarter than him. And, he was a jerk. Everyone was uncomfortable with them getting married. People talked to her much as you are thinking of talking to your friend, but she still did it, and now she's divorced.
People took their one shot and it made no difference. The thing with taking your one shot is that's all you get. You say your piece, and then you say you're going to love her regardless, and that you will stand by her regardless, and then you shut your mouth and eat cake at the reception.
However, my feeling is that if you think you can talk to her in a way that will not damage your relationship, then you should do it, especially if this guy gives you bad vibes. This may be just me, but you friends are there to tell you when they think you're about to fuck up, and then stand by you even if you actually DO fuck up. If it turns out that this guy is totally cool and you're wrong, it's okay to be wrong, but if time proves you right and you don't say anything, you'll feel awful. (Never say "I told you so," either. Just show up if you have to and do what needs to be done.)
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:25 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
While I sympathize with your frustration and bewilderment, do not say anything. You won't change her mind, you'll just hurt your friendship. If things get terrible for her, all you can do is be supportive and let her make her own decisions. There's also the chance that, regardless of how you feel, she'll actually be happy for reasons you can't fathom.
posted by Nattie at 4:35 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by Nattie at 4:35 AM on April 4, 2009
I have a friend who married a guy I hated and so did most of her friends and family. He was horrible, he was controlling and would call her up and scream at her regularly.
I regularly voiced my opinion of him, and she married him anyway. Our friendship suffered as a result. Now they are divorced. We are still good friends, but it has not been the same since the tension over her marriage.
I say all this to agree with above posters who say "DO NOT SAY ANYTHING." Be supportive of your friend, but she needs to figure it out for herself.
posted by hazyspring at 5:05 AM on April 4, 2009
I regularly voiced my opinion of him, and she married him anyway. Our friendship suffered as a result. Now they are divorced. We are still good friends, but it has not been the same since the tension over her marriage.
I say all this to agree with above posters who say "DO NOT SAY ANYTHING." Be supportive of your friend, but she needs to figure it out for herself.
posted by hazyspring at 5:05 AM on April 4, 2009
I think your fears are legitimate, but not because this person may be a bad guy.
It could be the first sign that you and your friend are growing apart, and priorities change, and it's so sad when you realize there's nothing you can do about it.
I'm liberal and I've had friends marry conservative guys and reveal a conservative streak I didn't realize they had. And it's not so awful that they became conservative, it's just one more thing we didn't have in common anymore. We've drifted apart. (Perhaps we would've drifted apart anyway--that time in your early 20s when a lot of people around you are getting married is a weird transition.)
So instead of focusing on this guy you don't like, since it's pretty clear your friend will marry him no matter what, I think you should focus on your friendship with this woman. Focus on what you still have in common, what made you friends in the first place, what you bring to each other's lives, and nuture that.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:27 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
It could be the first sign that you and your friend are growing apart, and priorities change, and it's so sad when you realize there's nothing you can do about it.
I'm liberal and I've had friends marry conservative guys and reveal a conservative streak I didn't realize they had. And it's not so awful that they became conservative, it's just one more thing we didn't have in common anymore. We've drifted apart. (Perhaps we would've drifted apart anyway--that time in your early 20s when a lot of people around you are getting married is a weird transition.)
So instead of focusing on this guy you don't like, since it's pretty clear your friend will marry him no matter what, I think you should focus on your friendship with this woman. Focus on what you still have in common, what made you friends in the first place, what you bring to each other's lives, and nuture that.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:27 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you can bring it up in a friendly "Hey, I never imagined you'd end with this sort of guy, funny old world, isn't it," then yeah talk about it. Don't try to convince her she's wrong, but do try to understand her thoughts, her feelings on why she is marrying him (this post was all about you). You may find that you don't know her as well as you think.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2009
You'll only alienate yourself from her if you do this. And if you are right, and this doesn't work out, she's going to need a friend to support her when things go south. Stay quiet and let her make her decisions, and be there for her if/when it doesn't work out.
posted by Lullen at 7:12 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by Lullen at 7:12 AM on April 4, 2009
Just to add to the "don't say anything" chorus -- it's possible that some friend of hers could say something. But I think you would appear as having an agenda.
Are there friends in your circle who don't have a past with her, and who feel as strongly about this as you? (If not, that's telling in itself.)
posted by palliser at 7:45 AM on April 4, 2009
Are there friends in your circle who don't have a past with her, and who feel as strongly about this as you? (If not, that's telling in itself.)
posted by palliser at 7:45 AM on April 4, 2009
I think it's only ok to say something if it's clear, both to you and to her, that you're suggesting yourself as an alternative.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 8:14 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by solipsophistocracy at 8:14 AM on April 4, 2009
["Tough love" answer follows]
Don't go there. Just don't. NO.
Sorry, but this is obviously sour grapes, and standard "nice guy" shit -- "this woman is my BEST FRIEND [because I want her and can't have her] and now she's marrying this ASSHOLE."
I mean, I know you think your situation is different, but the first step to wisdom is realizing that you are not unique and there are no special little snowflakes in the world. And the second is to ask yourself whether you have your friend's interests genuinely at heart here at all. (Hint: if she loves this guy, the politics are completely irrelevant, and, frankly, do you think she's so stupid that she won't have thought of any of this?)
posted by paultopia at 9:40 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
Don't go there. Just don't. NO.
Sorry, but this is obviously sour grapes, and standard "nice guy" shit -- "this woman is my BEST FRIEND [because I want her and can't have her] and now she's marrying this ASSHOLE."
I mean, I know you think your situation is different, but the first step to wisdom is realizing that you are not unique and there are no special little snowflakes in the world. And the second is to ask yourself whether you have your friend's interests genuinely at heart here at all. (Hint: if she loves this guy, the politics are completely irrelevant, and, frankly, do you think she's so stupid that she won't have thought of any of this?)
posted by paultopia at 9:40 AM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
I would be upset and appalled if one of my friends married someone who was homophobic. That shit doesn't fly with me.
The other stuff? That's all philosophy and lifestyle stuff, and none of it is morally suspect.
That said, it's her choice. I would not want to spend time with Mr. Hate-Gays, but I would not dream of saying anything to my friend other than "I'm not really comfortable with the way Joe talks about gay people."
What's a deal-breaker for one person isn't a deal-breaker for another, and part of being a friend is understanding that your friends have different personalities and perspectives and values than you do.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:47 AM on April 4, 2009
The other stuff? That's all philosophy and lifestyle stuff, and none of it is morally suspect.
That said, it's her choice. I would not want to spend time with Mr. Hate-Gays, but I would not dream of saying anything to my friend other than "I'm not really comfortable with the way Joe talks about gay people."
What's a deal-breaker for one person isn't a deal-breaker for another, and part of being a friend is understanding that your friends have different personalities and perspectives and values than you do.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:47 AM on April 4, 2009
You could do what my guy friend did - insult her clothing, say she is very "practical", and then say "I can't believe you are marrying HIM." It will work just as well as anything else you might say, so you might as well be completely over the top.
posted by Acer_saccharum at 10:25 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by Acer_saccharum at 10:25 AM on April 4, 2009
As a lot of other people have said, it's possible that your perceptions of this guy are colored by your own feelings for your friend. You mentioned that this guy wouldn't fit in with your circle of friends. Why don't you sit down with one of that circle, someone you know that you can trust and who will keep your conversation private, and have a long conversation about all of this? That could help you sort out your own feelings and get some valuable perspective on both your own reactions to this and how your other mutual friends see her fiance.
And, if it does end up seeming like a good idea to bring up these concerns with her, she might be more receptive to it coming from someone who she hasn't had a complicated, potentially romantic past with, and maybe especially to it coming from a female friend.
posted by overglow at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2009
And, if it does end up seeming like a good idea to bring up these concerns with her, she might be more receptive to it coming from someone who she hasn't had a complicated, potentially romantic past with, and maybe especially to it coming from a female friend.
posted by overglow at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2009
Here's a counter-intuitive suggestion. Support her decision. Apologize for being negative about her guy all this time, and tell her you sincerely wish her all the best. (Try hard to mean it.)
If you can do that, she'll be more likely to stay in touch with you. Never say anything negative about her fiance/husband -- instead, ask her how she feels about things. It's what a good friend does.
By the way, I totally understand your point of view. My best friend married a guy I couldn't stand. He's still a creep, but she loves him and they're still happy after 15 years.
posted by wryly at 12:54 PM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you can do that, she'll be more likely to stay in touch with you. Never say anything negative about her fiance/husband -- instead, ask her how she feels about things. It's what a good friend does.
By the way, I totally understand your point of view. My best friend married a guy I couldn't stand. He's still a creep, but she loves him and they're still happy after 15 years.
posted by wryly at 12:54 PM on April 4, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by milarepa at 9:05 PM on April 3, 2009