Why gamble?

November 15, 2004 7:10 PM

For gamblers, what's the attraction? [more inside]

I can understand the fun of getting together to play cards with freinds, or going on a toot in Vegas once in awhile. I even Understand compulsive behavior. But only if there's a payoff. You drink your drink, you get drunk; you take your dope, you get high; you pay your hooker, you get your sex. And it's not "winning" since you lose the overwhelming majority of the time. But I've never been able to understand how throwing money away becomes a compulsion. What I'm asking is what's the attraction driving the compulsion of a heavy duty gambler? I'm honestly trying to understand.

posted by jonmc to work & money (33 comments total)

In my opinion, gambling is stupid.
posted by interrobang at 7:13 PM on November 15, 2004

It's the err.. payoff.

Anyway, I don't have much to comment on this, except I'm going to remark on this interesting Western/Eastern difference between the two. I've been to a lot of casinos, mostly populated between old american retirees, and asian people.

Most retirees (and westerners) gamble with the thought of "I might lose the next one, I may get lucky though." However, almost EVERY asian person (granted mostly middle aged men) thinks "I'm going to win the next one, because I'm going to get lucky." I dunno, just something I noticed.

So at least for us Asian folks, the chance that fortune shines upon us is possibly ingrained.
posted by Stan Chin at 7:19 PM on November 15, 2004

And it's not "winning" since you lose the overwhelming majority of the time.

The winning is the high. That one second of anticipation followed by the euphoria is the payoff. Losing overall doesn't take that away. It just makes you want to come back and try to beat them again.
posted by smackfu at 7:21 PM on November 15, 2004

The best thing I ever read that captured the allure of gambling was Double Down. The revelation: winning is great, losing sucks, but quitting playing is the worst. It's all about the allure of possibility. If you are playing, you could win any minute now. Even losing is better than not playing.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:29 PM on November 15, 2004

I never got it either. I've only been to a casino once, and it was pretty depressing. No high rollers, just a bunch of people (who probably couldn't afford it) pumping cash into slot machines and electronic poker.

I once worked a temp job in an office with a woman who was talking about going to Atlantic City. I said something like "Nobody ever wins at those casinos." She responded emphatically "Oh yes they do!" presumably because she heard on the radio that someone somewhere hit a million-to-one shot on the nickle slots... Congratulations lady, you have no money, and you never will...

It also seemed like I was the only one in the office who had never bought a 'scratch and win' lotto ticket. For these people it seemed like a possible ticket to easy street, a way out of the drudgery of a 9-5 clerical job more than anything else...

I don't think they got a rush like you would if you had a bet riding on an exciting, close football game. If anything my sense of their thought process was something like "I played yesterday and the day before and lost, but my number is bound to come up eventually. Maybe today is the day."
posted by crank at 7:42 PM on November 15, 2004

(not a gambler myself).

It's intermittent reinforcement. If you look at your psychology texts, the best way to cement a learned behaviour is to provide intermittent, unpredictable rewards. I imagine that some people get a sufficiently big buzz from their intermittent gambling rewards that the behaviour is powerfully reinforced to a point which overrides all rational analysis, assuming that said people were that rational in the first place.

And for gambling where there's an element of skill, like poker or picking horses, it isn't always throwing money away. A friend of mine used to win good money betting on pool, because he was a *good* pool player. For the less skilled person there's always the possibility of improvement And if you pretty much break even, it would be easy to fool yourself that actually, you're a winner. Look up "confirmation bias" - imagine telling yourself that certain losses don't really count, while mentally figuring in all your wins.

Lastly, casino gambling isn't heavily skewed towards the house, just a little bit - enough to guarantee a profit over the long run. So a lot of people can leave feeling that they're lucky. After a few visits, I imagine there are some people who are in a sense lucky, not because fortune favours them, but because they're the remaining winners in their cohort. Combine that experience with the reinforcement phenomenon and you'll have potential problem gamblers fer sure.

interrobang, how was your comment helpful?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:43 PM on November 15, 2004

Because it was my opinion, "freind".
posted by interrobang at 7:47 PM on November 15, 2004

I think i_am_joe's_spleen has hit on it perfectly. I don't gamble because I know I would be one of those people who end up losing an entire paycheck at the slots on the glimmer of hope. I'm trying to sell a novel; logic and reason would dictate that after the 50th rejection letter, I should stop wasting money on postage and move on to something else, but those occasional rejections that come handwritten instead of form-printed, with kind words and encouragements, propel me to *keep* sending out queries even though my chances of actually succeeding are very, very low, and "playing" costs me upwards of forty dollars a month in postage alone. That I might win is enough to keep me going, and I think I would be the same way with a shiny bucket of nickels and a fresh seat at a one-armed bandit.
posted by headspace at 7:49 PM on November 15, 2004

It *is* a legitimate activity--whether you approve of it or not--to decide intentionally to "throw away money" for the sake of an experience.

I have never gambled except for playing poker with friends about five times, and I've never been to Atlantic City or Las Vegas (older than about eight).

Drinking, for example, is a perfect way to throw away money for the sake of a visceral experience: it doesn't improve your life necessarily, and you don't come away from it with a really cool material artifact, unless you buy that vodka that comes in the bottle shaped like a glass rifle. Or unless you actually enjoy hangovers, which I do, from time to time.

Is going to a live music show throwing away money? You're always going to remember it, and unless you buy a bunch of merchandise, you're not going to come home from a show with anything but an exciting memory.

I've known people who were mainly into going to shows. That was all they cared about. Sometimes the shows would be good, and most of the time they'd be bad. They still continued to live the rock-show-going lifestyle, and it didn't seem to tear them apart.

Gambling addictions aside--which I am in no way able to talk about, since my experience is so limited--just because there are some people out there who *simply cannot stop* gambling doesn't make the whole thing a waste of time.

I've also had friends who were into gambling, and they kept this bizarre running tally in their heads of how much they were "up". But the amount by which they were "up" was not calculated from the beginning of their gambling: it was calculated from how much they'd gained or lost since the last time they'd gambled.

you take your dope, you get high; you pay your hooker, you get your sex.

This frames the question--from the very beginning!--as a quasi-moralistic one. Gambling, dope and prostitution, forever lumped together on the anti-temperance Western frontier.

I'm asking is what's the attraction driving the compulsion of a heavy duty gambler?

What is the attraction driving the compulsion of a heavy duty drinker? Is it an attraction, or is it the simple inability to stop?
posted by interrobang at 8:04 PM on November 15, 2004

Money's filthy. There's an entire half-vocalized subculture out there - you may not consciously recognize it, but I'd "wager" it's permeated your subconscious - that's proud of not having, not needing money. Lots of money means leaving your friends behind, means guilt, means exploiting others, means all that meaningless drudgery you did to earn it.

Stack it up in a pile of chips and push all that shit away from you. Be the Gentleman Loser in a rumpled linen suit, wearing sunglasses at dawn, stumbling home broke, full of cheap liquor - but retaining your essentially masculine dignity as the sea breeze over the Boardwalk caresses your thinning hair, oily from a hard day and night at the tables.

Gambling's not stupid - people's motivations are complex enough to be interesting, if you're not-stupid enough to have a little perspective on them.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:05 PM on November 15, 2004

A lot of it varies on the type of gambling and what degree of control over their luck a gambler thinks he has. I concur that i_am_joe's_spleen sums it up nicely.

Some people like poker because that's got some grounding in skill. Others are attracted to slots/lotto because of the false mentality that "well, *someone* has to win... so why can't it be me?" At which point I try to explain the difference between a lotto and a raffle. Only the latter guarantees a winner.

I know for a buddy of mine - a sports gambler - the allure of correctly divining fate from mounds upon mounds of statistical data is in itself just as enticing as any monetary payoff. Like he's some grand oracle.

He once showed me all his data tracking stuff and how he "watches" games on the internet (mostly the statistical output) and I was just amazed. He's huge into fantasy leagues for just this reason - a number cruncher to the end and another perception of control over the future.
posted by Sangre Azul at 8:07 PM on November 15, 2004

Ugh. Lest I sound overly scornful of gambling... my buddy, for example, treats his sports gambling largely as a very expensive hobby. It's about bragging rights. Entertainment for someone with the good fortune of having a large disposable income.
posted by Sangre Azul at 8:11 PM on November 15, 2004

What is the attraction driving the compulsion of a heavy duty drinker? Is it an attraction, or is it the simple inability to stop?

That's actually fairly close to the core of my question. In the compulsive drinker's case, once a certain line has been crossed, he is indeed simply staving off the symptoms of withdrawal. But at the earlier stages of his addiction, he's getting a physical and psychological buzz.

So, I guess my ultimate question (and also the reason I brought in the comparisons to alcohol, drugs and sex) is to ask what the initial "buzz" is? Is it the thrill of risk, the hope of winning, the simple rush of excitement?

I honestly have no moral objection to gambling, I've been known to buy the occasional lottery ticket or bet on a game myself. I guess my question is aimed more towards the phenomenon of compulsive gambling than recreational occasional gambling.

It's more this (and I apologize if I'm not being clear), alcohol and drugs cause a physical change in someone that effects mood and emotion. Gambling must do the same on some level otherwise there wouldn't be so many compulsive gamblers. And it isn't just winning, since mostly people lose.

I just want to know.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 PM on November 15, 2004

One other thing - if you've ever had a decent amount riding on a bet, you know there's a big tension builds up until you know whether you won or lost, and then there's the release. I think the emotional release can be a kind of payoff - the visceral experience that interrobang mentioned - and you get that release payoff win or lose. So you need to see the payoff as emotional, not just monetary. In that light, gambling the pasttime is its own reward, if you're wired right (or wrong, as the case may be).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:23 PM on November 15, 2004

the false mentality that "well, *someone* has to win... so why can't it be me?"

Hey, one does win. I've lost a lot over the years, but I've also won many large jackpots. I quit heavy gambling a few years ago because it just wasn't fun anymore, but whenever I'm near a casino I still have to play. I happened to be at one in Wisconsin two weeks ago and won $1k - a small payoff compared to my past - but everytime I look in my wallet and see those crisp hundred dollar bills I get a rush.

I just want to know.

While you're playing, the mix of hope and dread and excitement and terror and joy is the headiest of cocktails. Win or lose.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:24 PM on November 15, 2004

This is just guessing, since I don't gamble, but I'd bet it has to do with the conditioned response:

So, I guess my ultimate question (and also the reason I brought in the comparisons to alcohol, drugs and sex) is to ask what the initial "buzz" is? Is it the thrill of risk, the hope of winning, the simple rush of excitement?

When you press the "walk" button thirty times because you're tired of waiting for the light to change so you can cross the street, and the light changes *right when you press it the last time*, you get a little rush of endorphins from you brain.

You brain rewards you for a job well done. You probably felt shitty all those other times that you pressed the button because you were in a hurry and wanted to cross the street, but that little release of sweet, sweet (MDMA-like) chemicals tells you that you've done the right thing by pressing thirty times even though the light heard you the first time and was connected to the city's central computer and just happened to change the thirtieth time you pressed the button

Also, I fourth and fifth the comments of others that it has a lot to do with a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics. I wouldn't, however, discount the simple roller-coaster effect of elevated heartbeats and endorphins.
posted by interrobang at 8:29 PM on November 15, 2004

For me it's the anticipation of winning. Do I know I will probably end up with nothing left over after I gamble? Sure, in my rational mind. But, irrationally, I think, "THIS will be the time I come home with more money!"

On the drive to the casino (roughly 90 minutes away) to play poker, I daydream about winning enough to make the trip worthwhile. Sometimes the dreaming becomes more pronounced, i.e. "I need to win this time because I am cutting it close on playing my VISA bill". When I realize I am at that point, I step back. But I never stop thinking about that next time and anticipating the adreneline dump when I have a great hand and can turn it into hard cash.

Have I ever gambled the rent money? No. Have I come close? Yes, because the "buzz" of "maybe this time" feels right around the corner and the anticipation of the big win.

And having won enough big payouts, on a bet/winnings ratio, I can usually convince myself it IS possible since it has happened to me in the past.

Not sure I answered your question but that's my experience.
posted by karmaville at 8:36 PM on November 15, 2004

While you're playing, the mix of hope and dread and excitement and terror and joy is the headiest of cocktails. Win or lose.

CunningLinguist describes my thoughts a little better than I did.
posted by karmaville at 8:38 PM on November 15, 2004

I think winning is in many ways incidental. It's the anticipation that's the "high". But there has to be some chance of different outcomes or there'd be no anticipation. There'd be no gambling if there wasn't at least occasional winning. Casinos &tc have figured out how to give the gamblers as much of the high as possible while still, eventually, getting all their money. Can't wipe them out right away or they won't come back.

on preview, karmaville covered some of my points.
posted by TimeFactor at 8:38 PM on November 15, 2004

A second on the psychological account from i_am_joes_spleen. There are studies that indicate that gambling can modulate dopaminergic neurons in the brain in ways paralleling other addictive behaviors.

Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that has a great deal to do with how our brains learn reward motivated behaviors. Most accounts of conditioned behavior involve the dopamine system. Relating to interrobang's point, I don't think dopamine is much like MDMA, which is a serotonin agonist.

Do a google search with the keywords gambling and dopamine to find out more. As an interesting aside, it seems like patients on medication for Parkinsons (which generally compensate for a lack of dopaminergic neurons) might be at greater risk for gambling addiction.

N.B.: I'm not claiming that all or most gamblers are addicts.
posted by tss at 8:43 PM on November 15, 2004

(my apologies for getting the brain-drug incorrect, nss.)
posted by interrobang at 8:50 PM on November 15, 2004

Lots of money means leaving your friends behind, means guilt, means exploiting others, means all that meaningless drudgery you did to earn it.... Be the Gentleman Loser in a rumpled linen suit, wearing sunglasses at dawn, stumbling home broke, full of cheap liquor - but retaining your essentially masculine dignity as the sea breeze over the Boardwalk caresses your thinning hair, oily from a hard day and night at the tables.

ikkyu2, that was beautiful!

On topic: I play poker weekly with some friends, and most of us have been to Vegas once or twice. Nobody expects to win anything. We treat it like spending money on entertainment, and no one shows any signs of compulsiveness. However, I skydive, which some would consider a form of gambling. I do understand how people get hooked on all the surging brain chemicals. Make one jump after a few months off, and suddenly you can't wait to go again -- and that old couch doesn't look so ugly, and that dental work isn't all that urgent, and maybe you don't need such a nice car, really...
posted by Tubes at 8:54 PM on November 15, 2004

(and also your name, tss.)
posted by interrobang at 8:56 PM on November 15, 2004

Entertainment for someone with the good fortune of having a large disposable income.

For whomever asked, this is a large reason why many people find gambling distastful. Because you're getting joy out of "throwing away" something lots of other people could really use. And by many people, I mean me. Then again, I'm judgemental.
posted by dame at 10:02 PM on November 15, 2004

Also - just plain operant conditioning! Gambling works on a reinforcement schedule that is (obviously), random. There's more to it than that, but they could set up a skinner box using the same payoff schedule that (say) slots use, and have a pigeon peck at a plate, which would disperse food on this schedule. With all the other reinforcement schedules, once the payoff disappeared, the pigeon would stop pecking pretty quickly. With the gambling schedule, pigeons would peck the plate a further 10-15 thousand times.

Granted, we're not pigeons, but I think that factors into it.
posted by kavasa at 1:48 AM on November 16, 2004

i don't see why people don't understand, or think it's "throwing away" money.

people who gamble are buying the experience. they're not buying the winnings (which, given the net loss, would be stupid). they're paying for the gambling experience, just as you might pay for the pleasure of reading a book. a book isn't worth much as sheets of paper, but it gives you an experience, when you read it, that you're happy to pay for. same with gambling.

and the good part about the experience is usually the winning. there's nothing to say that losing "cancels out" winning. people's emotions are not mapped 1 to 1 with the cashflow.

jonmc - i'm surprised this wasn't obvious to you. are you pissed off with a gambler? because it's not like you to ask something that confuses how people feel with the numbers on dollar bills.
posted by andrew cooke at 4:49 AM on November 16, 2004

jonmc - i'm surprised this wasn't obvious to you. are you pissed off with a gambler?

No, it's just something I'd been thinking on for a while. The few times I've gambled it wasn't some big thrill. I'd bought the occasional lotto ticket if there was some ridiculously huge jackpot, since it was only a buck and that I could afford to risk. Sports bets were usually sentimental, as in I hope my team wins, so I'll put 10 bucks down with a freind. I didn't get any thrill that could explain to me why people got so wrapped up in it. But there's an OTB near my train stop where people spend literally all day, and I've known people who've said that they'll literally bet on which nostril the ugly guys gonna pick first, as they said. So I wanted to hear from the source what it was all about. The answers have actually been quite illuminating.
posted by jonmc at 6:40 AM on November 16, 2004

You might be interested in my (middle-class, moderately well off) parents and their friends as an example. My parents rarely go to a casino, but when they do, they think of the money they bring as alreayd spent, for the "fun" of the casino. They generally play the worst games, like slots, and when they're out of the money they brought, they're done. Their friends are hyper-versions of them. They also rarely go to a casino, but when they get there they go absolutely fucking batshit insane, and power play like crazy. Still the worst kinds of games, slots, etc. Generally they'll lose several thousand dollars. They have made over 10k in one night. I think this makes the allure obvious for these kinds of people.

However, you don't seem to be specifically interested in that kind of gambling interaction. For the people who play all the time, it really is pretty simple - anyone engaging in an activity over and over again, when the fucking negative return you can expect on your dollar is printed in newspapers and available on the internet, is diseased. That kind of gambling is a disease, and it is a problem.

Personally, I play poker. I don't consider it gambling because the House has no investment in who wins - they take a percentage of the pot for allowing you to play. All the House needs to profit is players. Poker is a competitive game against other players. I suppose that it is possible that sports betting is similiar, given enough information to make an informed decision, but I'm not sure that enough information is truly possible - ie, if I had perfect information wouldn't I set the line right at what Vegas is putting it at?
posted by cohappy at 8:00 AM on November 16, 2004

CunningLinguist, my "someone has to win" bit referred mainly to the big number lotto drawings - where there are far more number combinations than there will ever be tickets sold. So, a winner in itself - much less it being you - is not guaranteed.

The same could be said of slots and other games of pure chance. Sure, over a long period of time, you're bound to see a winner, but it's never guaranteed for any specific game. A raffle, on the other hand, which selects a winner purely from its pool of participants, will have a winner. Same with poker and similar games.
posted by Sangre Azul at 8:12 AM on November 16, 2004

Ah, gambling. I usually only gamble once or twice a year in Las Vegas, but I am a serious gambler when I'm there and if I don't keep myself in check I can easily become one of those people who keeps putting bills in the machine even though it stopped being fun long ago. I know a fair bit about chance and probability with gambling, and yet I find it pretty easy to use some shady math to convince myself that I'm due for a big win. Anyway, someone before me said it best: It's all about the allure of possibility. It makes me absolutely twitchy to walk away from a machine when I'm down, but I could get back on track with the very next push of a button. (Video poker. Slots are ick.) What if it was the winning hand? I bet it was. I could have won! I better get back to my machine now...

(There's also the non-compulsive reasons, such as I like playing games, I like playing games with lots of people, and sometimes I even win money. Yeeeeeeeah, money.)
posted by jess at 9:04 AM on November 16, 2004

Gambling is a tax on people that are bat at math.
posted by mfbridges at 12:32 PM on November 16, 2004

err, that's bad. dammit.
posted by mfbridges at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2004

Gambling is a tax on people that are bat at math.

this came up at viewropa. you might be interested in this paper.
posted by andrew cooke at 12:59 PM on November 16, 2004