Dog that looks like Samoyed but isn't?
March 23, 2009 9:11 AM Subscribe
Need a dog recommendation. It would look something like a Samoyed (my favorite doggie look) but could do with a lot less activity, and would be happy to hang out indoors with me most of the day. Must be good for apartments. Which canines fit the bill?
American Eskimo Dog, is definitely in the same look and is much more appropriate as an apartment/companion dog. Like all dogs they would benefit from a daily walk but otherwise they seem somewhat sedate (in comparison to other Spitz varieties). They can be somewhat yippy but that's manageable assuming you have decent neighbors.
Other spitz varieties that might be doable would be the Shiba Inu (although they are way more active) and the Finnish Spitz (they have a blood curdling yip).
posted by vuron at 9:29 AM on March 23, 2009
Other spitz varieties that might be doable would be the Shiba Inu (although they are way more active) and the Finnish Spitz (they have a blood curdling yip).
posted by vuron at 9:29 AM on March 23, 2009
Keeshonds have the sweet fluffy look in slightly smaller, more apartment-sized bodies. A Schipperke might also work for you- higher energy, but can be extremely sweet and companionable.
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:40 AM on March 23, 2009
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:40 AM on March 23, 2009
I agree that you should maybe drop the cosmetic attachment to those regal sled dogs. Huskies, Samoyeds, Malamutes, etc are genetically bred for heavy labor and get unhappy and snippy with minimal exercise. A lot of shelters have mixes between sled dogs and other breeds, so maybe you can call up your local shelter and see if they have any calm dogs with spitzy genes.
Sometimes you'll get lucky: my shelter has a pure-bred Malamute who's the most docile couch potato in the world. If you're in the New York area, memail me and I'll send you details. Please be careful about picking dogs based on appearances, though. Shelters see a lot of owners who give up pedigreed spitz dogs because their hyperactivity outweighs their (admittedly awesome) looks.
One last thing after I get off my soap box: small dogs aren't necessarily the best pick for small apartments. This is a common misconception among city dwellers that shelter workers must constantly squelch. Big dogs typically have lower energy levels, and generally get less claustrophobic and cabin-fevery in small spaces than little dogs. Think about a Great Dane or a St. Bernard, who can lounge all day on the kitchen floor like a cat, versus an itty bitty terrier who scoots and yips and jumps for hours. I realize a lot of city housing agreements set a maximum weight for dogs, but if this isn't a stipulation in your situation (and I doubt it is if you want something like a Samoyed), definitely don't rule out a big old lug of a canine because of your apartment.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:49 AM on March 23, 2009 [4 favorites]
Sometimes you'll get lucky: my shelter has a pure-bred Malamute who's the most docile couch potato in the world. If you're in the New York area, memail me and I'll send you details. Please be careful about picking dogs based on appearances, though. Shelters see a lot of owners who give up pedigreed spitz dogs because their hyperactivity outweighs their (admittedly awesome) looks.
One last thing after I get off my soap box: small dogs aren't necessarily the best pick for small apartments. This is a common misconception among city dwellers that shelter workers must constantly squelch. Big dogs typically have lower energy levels, and generally get less claustrophobic and cabin-fevery in small spaces than little dogs. Think about a Great Dane or a St. Bernard, who can lounge all day on the kitchen floor like a cat, versus an itty bitty terrier who scoots and yips and jumps for hours. I realize a lot of city housing agreements set a maximum weight for dogs, but if this isn't a stipulation in your situation (and I doubt it is if you want something like a Samoyed), definitely don't rule out a big old lug of a canine because of your apartment.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:49 AM on March 23, 2009 [4 favorites]
You want a good apartment dog? Look into adopting a greyhound. They're complete couch potatoes, despite their appearance. We lost ours a few years ago, but she was the sweetest, most even-tempered animal I've ever known.
posted by jquinby at 9:56 AM on March 23, 2009
posted by jquinby at 9:56 AM on March 23, 2009
It came as a shock to me, but Akitas have the reputation of being good apartment dogs.
The smaller, whiter, sharper-muzzled Akitas look like Samoyeds to me.
posted by jamjam at 9:59 AM on March 23, 2009
The smaller, whiter, sharper-muzzled Akitas look like Samoyeds to me.
posted by jamjam at 9:59 AM on March 23, 2009
Seconding the recommendation for an American Eskimo Dog. They look exactly like Samoyeds, same pointy white furry shape, but they're little: my standard female is around 28 pounds, and the miniature ones (which are adorable but have in general more health problems) even smaller. My Eskie is fine energy-wise in our apartment; she spends most of the day, I think, asleep on my girlfriend's feet. She does like to get up and watch out the window for things to bark at as well; because she's a rescue (a "reskie," of course) she was never properly socialized and barks frequently. Her bark is not at all 'yippy'; it's a substantial bark. It doesn't last a terribly long time (she rarely barks for more than a minute or two at a time, usually much less), but it's very loud. If that's a problem, make sure to seek obedience training early! Eskies also shed a lot (be prepared for everything you have to be covered in long white fur), are highly intelligent (her vocabulary is quite impressive: she knows five or six synonyms for "go outside," "treat," "squirrel," and so on, including spelling!), and are very social with their family (ours does not like to be left at all, and I understand others similarly do not like being alone, even when they weren't abandoned as puppies), but they are wary of strangers (not aggressive, but bark-y).
I love my Eskie, but they're definitely a dog for someone who can devote a lot of time/attention to them (not necessarily space, though). They're wonderful, but they do get the nickname "Peskie" for a reason, too! Lots of people end up deciding a highly intelligent, clingy, bark-y dog that sheds enough to knit a sweater from isn't for them: check for local rescues. I've never regretted getting mine!
posted by lysimache at 10:07 AM on March 23, 2009
I love my Eskie, but they're definitely a dog for someone who can devote a lot of time/attention to them (not necessarily space, though). They're wonderful, but they do get the nickname "Peskie" for a reason, too! Lots of people end up deciding a highly intelligent, clingy, bark-y dog that sheds enough to knit a sweater from isn't for them: check for local rescues. I've never regretted getting mine!
posted by lysimache at 10:07 AM on March 23, 2009
Akitas are used as military and police dogs in their native Japan. They are sharp, strong, working dogs. They are not for beginners.
Have you considered a Pomeranian?
posted by acorncup at 10:14 AM on March 23, 2009
Have you considered a Pomeranian?
posted by acorncup at 10:14 AM on March 23, 2009
Dogs are individuals, like people. I would suggest visiting your local shelter(s) and spending some time with various dogs who appeal to you. Dogs can deviate dramatically from their breed's standard temperment. We have a boxer who requires one trip to our small local park every other day, is happy to sleep 20 hours a day, doesn't know how to bark, and has never eaten the couch (although she does like flipflops and underpants.)
The warning "YMMV" is never so apt as it is with canines. You're adopting a dog, not a breed.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:32 AM on March 23, 2009
The warning "YMMV" is never so apt as it is with canines. You're adopting a dog, not a breed.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:32 AM on March 23, 2009
the Klee Kai looks like a miniature husky, even tho they are a separate breed.
Cons: rare, and expensive (but my dream doggy!)
posted by legotech at 11:26 AM on March 23, 2009
Cons: rare, and expensive (but my dream doggy!)
posted by legotech at 11:26 AM on March 23, 2009
For most people I would say a good pound dog is an excellent choice, they often have fewer health problems than purebred dogs (less recessive crap in the mix). However I do think that a specific dog breed can be a great fit for many people.
I would also concur that retired racing greyhounds are excellent choices for urban apartment dwellers. They are typically crate trained, rarely have separation anxiety, are acutely aware of their size and proximity to things (tails and human flesh are the frequent exception), and typically require only a small amount of exercise in a dog park or on a walk. However if you are going to get one please don't turn it into a stuffed sausage, their activity level post-racing career generally doesn't demand a massive amount of food and far too many people overfeed them (a problem that is pretty endemic among all pets).
Finally Akitas are definitely not appropriate unless you are an experienced handler, they might be able to handle apartments but their natural dog aggression can make them extremely problematic for novice dog handlers, a problem that will be increased by the large number of strange dogs that are typically found in many apartment complexes.
posted by vuron at 11:34 AM on March 23, 2009
I would also concur that retired racing greyhounds are excellent choices for urban apartment dwellers. They are typically crate trained, rarely have separation anxiety, are acutely aware of their size and proximity to things (tails and human flesh are the frequent exception), and typically require only a small amount of exercise in a dog park or on a walk. However if you are going to get one please don't turn it into a stuffed sausage, their activity level post-racing career generally doesn't demand a massive amount of food and far too many people overfeed them (a problem that is pretty endemic among all pets).
Finally Akitas are definitely not appropriate unless you are an experienced handler, they might be able to handle apartments but their natural dog aggression can make them extremely problematic for novice dog handlers, a problem that will be increased by the large number of strange dogs that are typically found in many apartment complexes.
posted by vuron at 11:34 AM on March 23, 2009
If a dog is going to be indoors in an apartment most of the day, you need one of two types: an older, adult dog who doesn't run around much, or a small dog (toy breed, terrier, etc) that gets enough exercise from running around the apartment. We have an older Corgi (I think normally they are hyper when younger but Sunny is really laid back) in our apartment.
Remember that big dogs take up a lot more space. That seems obvious, but they really do get in the way more! I would never have a big dog like a Lab in my two-bedroom apartment, even if it was calm. It would just be in the freakin way too much!
If you are anti-small dog, remember that not all small dogs are four-pound fluff balls that sound like squeaky toys. We had a Shih Tzu who had the most wonderful, amazing personality and was just so fun. And a full man-bark, no yapping. Also my friend has a Boston Terrier that is just a hilarious little dog.
How is your apartment set up? Do you have any enclosed outdoor area? Do you have to go down halls or flights of stairs to get outside? I ask because a dog requires significantly more maintenance when you have to physically clip on a leash and take it for a walk three times a day. It's a lot easier when you can just open the door and let it do it's business in the yard for at least one of those walks.
posted by radioamy at 11:35 AM on March 23, 2009
Remember that big dogs take up a lot more space. That seems obvious, but they really do get in the way more! I would never have a big dog like a Lab in my two-bedroom apartment, even if it was calm. It would just be in the freakin way too much!
If you are anti-small dog, remember that not all small dogs are four-pound fluff balls that sound like squeaky toys. We had a Shih Tzu who had the most wonderful, amazing personality and was just so fun. And a full man-bark, no yapping. Also my friend has a Boston Terrier that is just a hilarious little dog.
How is your apartment set up? Do you have any enclosed outdoor area? Do you have to go down halls or flights of stairs to get outside? I ask because a dog requires significantly more maintenance when you have to physically clip on a leash and take it for a walk three times a day. It's a lot easier when you can just open the door and let it do it's business in the yard for at least one of those walks.
posted by radioamy at 11:35 AM on March 23, 2009
We have a bichon-shih tzu and a bichon-yorkie (toy) and they are both wonderful family, household dogs. Plus ... they don't shed. The "bichorkie" is a bit of a barker - not that he won't stop when told, but maybe a little too noisy for apartment living.
posted by jkaczor at 12:00 PM on March 23, 2009
posted by jkaczor at 12:00 PM on March 23, 2009
Nthing a retired racing greyhound. Obviously they're not as fluffy/furry as the breed you have in mind, but they do make excellent apartment dogs. When we had our grey, we lived in houses with fenced-in yards, but even then when I let him out for his toilette, he might run just a lap or two before finding just the "right" spot to relieve himself. Then he headed right back to the house and curled up on his bankie. I took him for a daily walk, but he was more interested in sniffing everything than going for a long-distance hike. He only barked if he needed to come in and I hadn't answered the door yet, or if a stranger came up on the front porch.
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:01 PM on March 23, 2009
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:01 PM on March 23, 2009
Remember that big dogs take up a lot more space. That seems obvious, but they really do get in the way more! I would never have a big dog like a Lab in my two-bedroom apartment, even if it was calm. It would just be in the freakin way too much!
No no no no no! Ack, I am going to start making T-shirts that scream in huge caps SMALL DOGS DO NOT ALWAYS FIT IN SMALL APARTMENTS. This is the absolute biggest misconception among city dog-owners, and this lie ultimately cloisters big, calm, apartment-friendly dogs in city shelters.
There is no direct scale for animals and living space. People who own St. Bernards do not have to live in mansions. If you walk a Great Pyrinees into an apartment, the apartment does not shrink. Yes, a big dog will talk up an extra cushion on the couch and will need a bigger crate. But really, that's where the drama ends. Any shelter volunteer will tell you that you need to pick a dog based on energy level, which varies more between breeds than weight in canines.
I'm going to start a revolution that ends this stupid myth and Metafilter will be my megaphone, goddammit.
posted by zoomorphic at 12:20 PM on March 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
No no no no no! Ack, I am going to start making T-shirts that scream in huge caps SMALL DOGS DO NOT ALWAYS FIT IN SMALL APARTMENTS. This is the absolute biggest misconception among city dog-owners, and this lie ultimately cloisters big, calm, apartment-friendly dogs in city shelters.
There is no direct scale for animals and living space. People who own St. Bernards do not have to live in mansions. If you walk a Great Pyrinees into an apartment, the apartment does not shrink. Yes, a big dog will talk up an extra cushion on the couch and will need a bigger crate. But really, that's where the drama ends. Any shelter volunteer will tell you that you need to pick a dog based on energy level, which varies more between breeds than weight in canines.
I'm going to start a revolution that ends this stupid myth and Metafilter will be my megaphone, goddammit.
posted by zoomorphic at 12:20 PM on March 23, 2009 [2 favorites]
Chiming in on the greyhound. I know four different families who have a total of six greyhounds and they are THE BEST DOGS I've ever been around. So laid back, so loving, so sweet-tempered. And smart! When it's time for us to get a dog, we will absolutely get a greyhound. We're lazy, so we don't want a dog who needs long, long walks and lots of stimulation.
posted by cooker girl at 12:23 PM on March 23, 2009
posted by cooker girl at 12:23 PM on March 23, 2009
I have a sheskie - part Sheltie, part American Eskimo. He is a fantastic dog, about 30 pounds, smart, charming, and looks like an Eskie or mini-Samoyed except he is a little more off-white than pure breds.
He enjoys my small house and very small yard/screened patio, and at age 3 is happy to sleep 20 hours a day and put on the charm for the other 4.
He is an attention magnet and a great ambassador for his breeds. He has a strong bark but will stop when I tell him (usually). He has sharp eyes and the nordic breed type pointy ears, but they do tip when he is relaxed... that's partially the sheltie in him.
Samoyeds were bred as working dogs to be out in the wilderness, American Eskimos were bred to be circus performers so their personality is very good at being people-pleasers.
posted by prettymightyflighty at 12:39 PM on March 23, 2009
He enjoys my small house and very small yard/screened patio, and at age 3 is happy to sleep 20 hours a day and put on the charm for the other 4.
He is an attention magnet and a great ambassador for his breeds. He has a strong bark but will stop when I tell him (usually). He has sharp eyes and the nordic breed type pointy ears, but they do tip when he is relaxed... that's partially the sheltie in him.
Samoyeds were bred as working dogs to be out in the wilderness, American Eskimos were bred to be circus performers so their personality is very good at being people-pleasers.
posted by prettymightyflighty at 12:39 PM on March 23, 2009
American Eskimos were bred to be circus performers so their personality is very good at being people-pleasers.
I had to read this three times.
For one final plug for greyhounds: as a breed, they tend to be one of the healthiest out there. Skin allergies, hip dysplasia and suchlike have generally been bred out of the racing dogs (owing, in large part, to widespread euthanasia among breeders). If you go this route, connect with the local greyhound group(s) and they can give you further information on the breed's quirks. For example - they don't metabolize certain anesthesia like other dogs, and the vet should know that. Also, they don't have much in the way of body fat, so they can get cold easy, which means you can't leave them outside. They are absolutely Indoor Dogs, though many have never been in an actual house before. Ours had never seen stairs, so we had to show her how to go up them.
Good watchdogs...they see intruders, and they watch them. That's about it. They look mean and angular, but they're pussycats. Ours was scared of the cockatiel when he was flying around loose.
posted by jquinby at 12:57 PM on March 23, 2009
I had to read this three times.
For one final plug for greyhounds: as a breed, they tend to be one of the healthiest out there. Skin allergies, hip dysplasia and suchlike have generally been bred out of the racing dogs (owing, in large part, to widespread euthanasia among breeders). If you go this route, connect with the local greyhound group(s) and they can give you further information on the breed's quirks. For example - they don't metabolize certain anesthesia like other dogs, and the vet should know that. Also, they don't have much in the way of body fat, so they can get cold easy, which means you can't leave them outside. They are absolutely Indoor Dogs, though many have never been in an actual house before. Ours had never seen stairs, so we had to show her how to go up them.
Good watchdogs...they see intruders, and they watch them. That's about it. They look mean and angular, but they're pussycats. Ours was scared of the cockatiel when he was flying around loose.
posted by jquinby at 12:57 PM on March 23, 2009
If you're thinking about getting a dog and you like a certain breed, I'd suggest going to petfinder.com. If you're like me and the idea of going into a pound and not leaving with every single dog fills you with sadness, petfinder is great--you might end up paying some money to transport the dog, but the people who are fostering the dogs put up all sorts of information about them--like what their temperaments are, how well-housetrained they are, that sort of thing. My mother found a wonderful little dog through them--if you search for "Samoyed", they'll return a number of Samoyeds and Samoyed mixes.
Re other dog breeds, if this is your first dog I would NOT RECOMMEND a Shiba Inu or most other Spitz dogs. They're really gorgeous but they need a lot of exercise, and if they don't get it they get bored and cause trouble the likes of which you're unlikely to be able to imagine if you don't already have one.
Good luck. Dogs are wonderful.
posted by supercoollady at 1:25 PM on March 23, 2009
Re other dog breeds, if this is your first dog I would NOT RECOMMEND a Shiba Inu or most other Spitz dogs. They're really gorgeous but they need a lot of exercise, and if they don't get it they get bored and cause trouble the likes of which you're unlikely to be able to imagine if you don't already have one.
Good luck. Dogs are wonderful.
posted by supercoollady at 1:25 PM on March 23, 2009
Zoomorphic: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
I can't tell you the amount of times I've tried to convince people that often times, big dogs are just as good if not better in apartments than small active dogs. I live in NYC, and have always had large (75lbs. +) dogs, and after the morning park or dog run outting, they're pretty content to just lie around.
There are different breed tendencies towards different activity levels, of course, but for the most part I just think that bigger dogs are mellower.
As for finding a dog, I first recommend going to your local kill shelter (as opposed to the no-kill shelters). The dogs that wind up there have a depressingly small chance of being re-homed,and there are some absolutely awesome dogs winding up there.
If you can't face going to the shelter, try the less in your face route of Petfinder. Even if you don't see a dog on there that strikes your fancy right now, you can get information about rescue groups that are local to you, and contact them directly.
Many of them pull from the shelters.
Also check out Craigslist, rescue groups will list dogs there that are on the euth list at the shelters that they unfortunately don't have the capacity to rescue themselves.
posted by newpotato at 3:29 PM on March 23, 2009
I can't tell you the amount of times I've tried to convince people that often times, big dogs are just as good if not better in apartments than small active dogs. I live in NYC, and have always had large (75lbs. +) dogs, and after the morning park or dog run outting, they're pretty content to just lie around.
There are different breed tendencies towards different activity levels, of course, but for the most part I just think that bigger dogs are mellower.
As for finding a dog, I first recommend going to your local kill shelter (as opposed to the no-kill shelters). The dogs that wind up there have a depressingly small chance of being re-homed,and there are some absolutely awesome dogs winding up there.
If you can't face going to the shelter, try the less in your face route of Petfinder. Even if you don't see a dog on there that strikes your fancy right now, you can get information about rescue groups that are local to you, and contact them directly.
Many of them pull from the shelters.
Also check out Craigslist, rescue groups will list dogs there that are on the euth list at the shelters that they unfortunately don't have the capacity to rescue themselves.
posted by newpotato at 3:29 PM on March 23, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks for the wonderful info so far.
How is your apartment set up? Do you have any enclosed outdoor area? Do you have to go down halls or flights of stairs to get outside?
Unfortunately, there's no enclosed outdoor area, and I have to go down an elevator to get downstairs. But there's a dog run very nearby...
posted by shivohum at 4:13 PM on March 23, 2009
How is your apartment set up? Do you have any enclosed outdoor area? Do you have to go down halls or flights of stairs to get outside?
Unfortunately, there's no enclosed outdoor area, and I have to go down an elevator to get downstairs. But there's a dog run very nearby...
posted by shivohum at 4:13 PM on March 23, 2009
I had a Keeshond when I was growing up. I'm not sure this is the dog you want. They are extremely cute and loveable, and can be trained easily... a really nice dog. But, they shed A LOT (of course, this was in Houston, so that was part of it). They need companionship A LOT (families are good, if that's your situation). And they are really happiest outside, getting A LOT of exercise (so really, are best with a yard to run in all day).
Although I think they are great, I'm not sure they are made for apartment living.
posted by Houstonian at 4:20 PM on March 23, 2009
Although I think they are great, I'm not sure they are made for apartment living.
posted by Houstonian at 4:20 PM on March 23, 2009
Another vote for retired greyhound. I've known a few people who had them and all report great happiness. A friend got one and he's very happy with it. Moley--it has mole-like markings is docile, low-energy, not a lifeless lump.
Funny thing about it; he also has a Jack Russell, has to take them out separately to play catch the ball. When the dogs were together, the JR would do a full-go sprint, Moley would power up to casual-loping mode and easily beat the JR to the ball, which left the JR moping.
posted by ambient2 at 9:46 PM on March 23, 2009
Funny thing about it; he also has a Jack Russell, has to take them out separately to play catch the ball. When the dogs were together, the JR would do a full-go sprint, Moley would power up to casual-loping mode and easily beat the JR to the ball, which left the JR moping.
posted by ambient2 at 9:46 PM on March 23, 2009
Another vote for considering a greyhound. Low energy, great couch dogs. Not sure about smart though... not ours at least.
posted by primer_dimer at 5:38 AM on March 24, 2009
posted by primer_dimer at 5:38 AM on March 24, 2009
I really have to disagree with those recommending the American Eskimo Dog. They are great dogs, for sure, and they do look like smaller versions of Samoyeds--but they are emphatically NOT low energy. My parents' Eskie barks at every little noise and gets bored easily, leading to very destructive behavior. (She once got a hold of a pewter candlestick and chewed it to pieces. Why? Who knows?)
She is twelve years old now, and seems to be finally mellowing out, but that really only started within the last year or two.
That said, if you ever decide you're ready (and have the space for) for a fluffy ball of energy, American Eskimos do make sweet, loyal companions.
posted by gwyn at 8:15 PM on March 24, 2009
She is twelve years old now, and seems to be finally mellowing out, but that really only started within the last year or two.
That said, if you ever decide you're ready (and have the space for) for a fluffy ball of energy, American Eskimos do make sweet, loyal companions.
posted by gwyn at 8:15 PM on March 24, 2009
shivohum: "Unfortunately, there's no enclosed outdoor area, and I have to go down an elevator to get downstairs. But there's a dog run very nearby..."
I grew up with NYC apartment dogs, and I have no issues with dog owning without outside space, as long as it's appropriate to the dog. I've known people with everything from Newfies to teacup poodles and it's been fine.
However, just as a work of warning, when we adopted our boxer, she was not house trained. We were very consistent with the "every two hours and VERY FIRST THING in the morning" routine (she got to pee before I did) and it only took her a week to get it, but we did have to carry our un-small dog down three flights of stairs for a while to stop her from peeing on the stairs. Even half-starved, the dog weighed 40lbs. Three flights of stairs. But it worked.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:26 PM on March 24, 2009
I grew up with NYC apartment dogs, and I have no issues with dog owning without outside space, as long as it's appropriate to the dog. I've known people with everything from Newfies to teacup poodles and it's been fine.
However, just as a work of warning, when we adopted our boxer, she was not house trained. We were very consistent with the "every two hours and VERY FIRST THING in the morning" routine (she got to pee before I did) and it only took her a week to get it, but we did have to carry our un-small dog down three flights of stairs for a while to stop her from peeing on the stairs. Even half-starved, the dog weighed 40lbs. Three flights of stairs. But it worked.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:26 PM on March 24, 2009
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Depending on how much time you have to train a dog, I'd say go to a local pound or animal shelter and talk to the folks who work with the dogs daily. If they're good at what they do, and they probably will be, they can "size" a dog for who you are, and your living situation.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:18 AM on March 23, 2009