Trying to navigate a mine field here...

March 12, 2009 5:28 PM

Just Friends filter: I'm becoming pretty good friends with a married man, and I need help staying on the wife's good side.

So this is one big complicated situation that I want to prevent from blowing up in our faces - we're all adults here, and I've had very close guy friends before, just not one that's married. Sorry about the length, I tried to keep it short.

I met "Jack" through grad studies, both of us are tied to a few of the same research projects. I'm in my mid 20's, he's in his early 30's. We've gone for lunch a few times, at first to talk about the projects but then it became 'just for fun'. We've started chatting online, traded favorite movies, tv shows, music and books, and went for dinner/drinks a few nights ago. All the while we're being very clear we've both got S.O's and we're just friends. No physical contact whatsoever. But he's starting to think of me more along the lines of "best friend" and I know his wife's just a tad concerned (I don't blame her)...

So Jack is in his early 30's and has been married for the past decade. His wife Jill is a year older than him, and a doctor who's still doing residencies and whatnot so she's out of town a lot, for a week at a time (she'll be away for the majority of this next month). They have a mortgage on a house, no kids. From what I've been told, Jill's the kind of person who makes friends easily, has her girlfriends she goes out with, and most of "their" friends are "her" friends -- he wouldn't be comfotable hanging out with them without her being around. Jack is a very shy person with a few friends of his own who have all moved away over the years. He's not into sports, doesn't believe in indoor pets, and isn't at all comfortable with being outgoing and meeting new people. So Jack is starting to get pretty lonely and bored at home all by himself, and seems to be starting to get a little resentful towards his wife for it.

Me, I'm already a divorcee and have been dating a very introverted guy for over a year now. My bf is currently working long 12-hour days out of town during the week, and he sleeps most of the time when he's home, prefers his alone time but we spend the weekends together. He also doesn't like spicy food, alcoholic beverages or cheezy horror movies, all of which I enjoy, am starting to miss, and found out Jack likes a lot too. I've always gotten along better with guys than girls, and I've had best friends who are guys before - never became a sexual thing though we'd see eachother every day.

So yes there is a few obvious questions to be answered, like what about the sexual tension and what about the fact we like to drink together, those all seem like they'd lead to disaster. Well regarding the sex, I'm not interested - low libido, plus I get bored with it pretty quick, and having been through a divorce myself it's just not worth it to have a quick fuck and risk ruining someone else's life. Sometimes a friendship is worth more than that, and Jack and I agree we we've become sort of like family - close cousins or something. He's not sending signals, I'm not either, I think we'll be ok. As for the drinking lowering our inhibitions, we drink to savor the drinks (only a few) and socialize, not to get smashed.

So understandably Jill wants to meet me, wants to know what our intentions are and all of that sort of thing, some reassurance really. I'm perfectly willing to meet her whenever she wants (she's the busier one), and I'm hoping I can make it clear I think of Jack as more of a big brother (which is true, honest). But given that I really deal with guys better than girls, what else can I say/do to help stay on her good side? How about Jack, who obviously has more influence here?

posted by anonymous to human relations (42 comments total)

One question here-I believe you when you say YOU are okay-but do you think really deep down HE is?

I think you really need to socialize with both of them together for awhile-or at the very least not one on one, but with other friends. And I say that as a woman with a husband who has plenty of female friends, and who I totally trust with them and vice versa. Because sometimes it isn't sexual intimacy, it's emotional intimacy that becomes problematic.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:34 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]

How about instead if just meeting Jill, include her in your get-togethers absolutely whenever possible? And either you'll all hit it off, or perhaps she'll decide hanging out with you two isn't that much fun and next time lunch comes up she'll say, "nah, you two go without me". At least the ball was in her court.
posted by agentwills at 5:35 PM on March 12

You know what? I'll just say it: this is not going to end well. I don't know if that means you should cut it off or not, but you're already in really sticky territory and you need to tread carefully.
posted by kate blank at 5:38 PM on March 12 [9 favorites]

Take her to one side and make clear your intentions. Maybe invite her out for a drink with you and Jack. As long as your both open with her she as a grown adult should have no problem with your friendship.
posted by nam3d at 5:38 PM on March 12

I would meet her for the first time as a couple with your SO. Make it clear through action and word that you and your SO are a committeed couple. Don't act squirrely, don't overshare, but just make it clear that your SO is the bees knees in terms of what you are looking for in a partner and Jack is a good buddy who you do buddy things with.

I'm a woman with more male friends than female friends and a long distance boyfriend so this comes up in my life from time to time. The big deal is not just the sort of "grade my report card" list of "see it's perfectly normal!" items you have in your question here, it's that you and Jack both be clear you're not using each other to sort of make up for lacking intimacy in your existing relationships. Jack being somewhat resentful of his wife concerns me. You listing what you share with Jack and not with your SO concerns me. Jack feeling like you're family without his wife having met you concerns me. I'm not saying anything untoward is going on, I'm saying think about the story you're telling.

So, just checking your assumptions and reactions as you move forward and being open to whatever comes your way from the wife. Seems like you understand where she's coming from, so I think mostly what you need to do is be respectful of their relationship and be extra careful about boundaries that you may not be aware exist (and Jack may not be aware exist) just thinking out loud here....

- if she's out of town is it okay for you to come over to their house? I'd err on the side of "no" unless she says so explicitly.
- staying out late having a few drinks is decent but if you're his only drinking buddy it looks weirder
- extensive chatting online might concern an SO, maybe you can chat wth her as well?

Again I'm only mentioning these things because you want to do the right thing and are wondering what that might be. I have some couples I just sort of can't be friends with because my unmarried status seems to cause agitation and I can't do much about that so the more proactive you can be, the better.
posted by jessamyn at 5:41 PM on March 12 [14 favorites]

This really sounds like you're trying to talk yourself out of your intense sexual/romantic attraction to him. If so, I would urge you to cool it.
posted by jayder at 5:41 PM on March 12

"best friend"...close cousins...big brother

If I were Julie, I wouldn't want to hear any of the justifications you've posted in this thread. Jack is not your best friend; Jack already has a best friend, his wife. He is not your cousin, your brother, or any other member of your family. And you know why not? Because family equals duty, obligation, ties that cannot be broken. Jack's wife is his family and his family is her family, and you are not their family. You better believe if I were Julie and you gave me the creeps, I would and could cut your ties to Jack, because you are not Jack's family and therefore not my family, either. So I'd steer clear of any of that sort of language that implies that you feel you "deserve" time with her husband. You don't, and to suggest otherwise will give insight into your motives that words won't.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:42 PM on March 12 [23 favorites]

But given that I really deal with guys better than girls, what else can I say/do to help stay on her good side?

Yeah, I don't think that's really true.

Read what you wrote again. You repeat, many times, that you have had plenty of guy friends, have had plenty of platonic relationships, yet you can't help but mention about things you expect (or probably are current) to happen in your relationship with Jack. It reads, at first glance anyways, that you're trying to justify....something. What is it exactly? It isn't your friendship with Jack. Is it the fact that you expect to fall of him, to have a crush on him? Do you already have a crush on him?

I don't think you're aware of yourself, or your male relationships, as well as you think you are. What Jill wants to know is what do you know. Are you aware of how you handle guys? Do you experience sexual tension with your relationships? Do you shake it off, not worry about, not care? Or are you going to go on the internet and try, desperately, to pretend that you know how to handle these behaviors when, really, you don't (or else you wouldn't need to be asking this question on the internet).

You're a decade younger. You're introvert friendly. You're moving your relationship with Jack way from "friends at work" to "best friends" (it's not just him doing this; you're encouraging and wanting it to happen). Jill probably knows Jack much better than you do. She'll know what Jack is doing, what he's saying, and what he means when he says stuff. Jill wants to know how secure you are with yourself and your current relationship (which doesn't sound like you are to some degree). It's perfectly normal to meet someone new, to be excited about them, what they do, what they say, and how they think. And it's normal to talk about that or let that new person absorb your life or energy for a bit. What's not normal, however, is to automatically assume that "excitement" or "fascination" leads to "romantic feelings", "crushes", "sex", "love" which you seem to be doing in this question. Just because that seems to be your perspective (and maybe Jack's but he's not asking this question), doesn't mean it's the only valid one.

Jack's not your big brother; you've just met him and you've never grown up with him or grown in an environment together. On preview, I see TPS said was I was going to say. He's not your family. He's your friend. I don't believe that you're okay with this. I think you want it to be more than it is and you're projecting onto Jack. You're not the cool cucumber you think you are and that's what Jill wants to know.
posted by Stynxno at 5:48 PM on March 12 [10 favorites]

I agree with the above comments - much better to socialize with them both together than to meet Jill alone, which is kind of a weird suggestion on her part, really. - On these joint get-togethers though, you and Jack absolutely must not exchange any private jokes, refer to things you've done together, or in any way display emotional intimacy. The conversation should be about her or them - tell me about your job, how did you two meet, I am so glad to finally meet you because Jack has told me so much about you, etc. Throwing in a few remarks to the effect that because you have brothers/don't have brothers/love your brothers/hate your brothers/whatever, you often like to find friends who can be like brothers, would not hurt. Neither would bringing along your boyfriend and holding his hand during dinner.

I really agree with St. Alia - for Jill, the fundamental issue is (or should be) him, not you. My husband also has almost exclusively female friends, one of whom is getting divorced and asked me if I'd be uncomfortable with their friendship now that she'd be unattached. I told her that if I trust Ben, it doesn't matter if his best friends are all single supermodels, and if I don't, it doesn't matter how married she is. There is a reason that the word "jealousy" originally applied not to the other woman but to the object of desire - i.e., Jill is jealous of Jack, not of you.
posted by Betsy Vane at 5:51 PM on March 12

If you really do have a low libido and don't consider sex to be so important you have to realize that everything else in the friendship/affection department kind of becomes more important. "Best friends" is a much bigger chunk of all the intimacy you have out on the table.

So I think you're actually in more emotional danger than if you were a more sexual person who just wanted something platonic with this dude. Assuming you're serious about not wanting to wreck his marriage, that is (though you don't seem to say anything about hurting your own bf).

Also I think infidelity can be a turn-on for some people, so the fact that you've not had sex with other guy-friends might not mean so much.

Anyway, to answer your question, I think what might be reassuring to Jill is if you're sort of a hopeless nerd who seems clueless, not haven given any thought to any kind of
relationship' type word with her husband. I imagine she'd want to see "oblivious & safe". But you're saying you're not. So it sounds to me like.... abort! abort!
posted by fleacircus at 6:10 PM on March 12

So, I have ex's that I meet and talk with on occasion and a female penpal that my wife and I are both dear friends with. My wife knows about all of this, so you're not in an impossible situation but I can't say enough about how special she is. I had no expectation of her being cool with me keeping tabs on my old long-time female friends and yet she is because I earned her trust.

Just remember, alcohol hates monogamy. You might be able to score points with Jill if you agree to a no-drinking policy.

Also, if Jack is talking about you a lot with Jill, signal flares and sirens will go off in Jill's mind. At the same time he needs to be open about what you two are up to, just not "She said this, she did that, ain't she great?"

Jill might be OK with you two remaining friends but not best friends. That's Jill's role and she will not want any female treading on that territory.
posted by trinity8-director at 6:12 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

I would not be okay with this kind of thing at all. It seems you are making your life (and his life) unnecessarily complicated. Stop hanging out with this guy and trying to be his friend, even if you feel bad for him being lonely. The point is not to be involved in really complicated relationships. You are not his family and if you care about either yourself or him, you would not complicate his marriage by adopting each other.
posted by anniecat at 6:28 PM on March 12

So understandably Jill wants to meet me, wants to know what our intentions are and all of that sort of thing, some reassurance really.

You're in so much trouble with Jill right now, based on that phrasing. She knows her husband, can see that he likes you (though perhaps not in that way) and that you're giving him something she isn't and possibly can't compete with. So don't fool yourself, you're in a big hole, one you may not ever get out of.

I'd be blunt and meet with Jill and pointedly mention, yeah it may seem awkward, but it isn't, based on all the reasons you mentioned above. You may still be in trouble and never, ever get out of it, but you've been honest and made your case. They seem to have issues and Jack definitely has issues (you're his only friend?!), but that's really not our issue. Be jack's friend, enjoy the relationship, while expanding the relationship to include a few other people from class and don't get dragged into this drama.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:31 PM on March 12

There is a lot of detail in your question, but this is really simple. Pretend (or actually do it) that you have a recording device that makes a record of everything that you do and say each time you are with Jack. Would both of you be willing, without hesitation, to let Jill experience the recording without editing it first? Friends would be willing to share; people monkeying around where they shouldn't will not be so forthcoming.

I strongly suspect that you know that you shouldn't be doing this, otherwise you wouldn't have come here with this question. Just remember, if Jack falls down and breaks his crown, Jill WILL come tumbling after. You both need to be honest about your intentions before everyone gets hurt. There are plenty of single guys looking for friends.
posted by konig at 6:42 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

It would be nice if you could let us know how you rate on the looks scale. Are you (conventionally) really attractive? Or are you (conventionally) ugly? If you are quite attractive, this situation is not going to work. A man left at home alone, for periods of up to a week ... it is inevitable he is going to want to get jiggy with you. Heck, even if you're ugly there are pretty even odds he is going to want to get jiggy.

This situation is sexually combustible. Your doth-protest-too-much question phrasing, which makes it sound like you're jonesing to jump his bones, too, just confirms that this is headed in a very dangerous, marriage-destroying direction.
posted by jayder at 6:46 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

All you folks who are convinced that the OP is secretly in crush with Jack, or that they will end up wanting to be more than friends, based on the question: how would a question read that didn't have this alleged subtext? I'm not getting it, and if I were the OP, I'd probably be seriously disappointed that you all are so doubtful. I'd wonder if most people believe it to be even possible for hetero people of the opposite sex to be friends - do you?
posted by amtho at 7:02 PM on March 12 [6 favorites]

I ask because if answerers can't really imagine a real friends-only scenario between a man and a woman, it makes the answers suspect. Also because I've historically found dudes easier to understand / deal with, and would love to know myself how to handle a situation like the OP describes.
posted by amtho at 7:04 PM on March 12

If Jill is concerned already there may be nothing you can do about it, especially if their relationship is strained and Jack feels resentful of her. I go out to dinner and movies with my guy friends alone, which is even a typically date-y activity, but my husband doesn't care at all. I imagine my husband would feel differently if my husband weren't obviously my best friend; we spend the majority of every day together. It's hard not to feel like someone is competition for you if you're already in a strained relationship.

So I would advise a couple things:
- Don't refer to him as your best friend, or family. The wife would probably like to think of herself as the former, even if she isn't, and she is most certainly the latter. It's fine that you feel that way about Jack, just don't phrase it that way if you want to keep her at ease.

- I like the idea suggested above that you should go out with the two of them with your SO. Failing that, or in addition to that, talk a lot about your SO in very favorable terms. If Jill thinks you're crazy about your SO, then you're going to be considerably less of a threat.

- Do not not not talk about how you go do things with Jack because your husband doesn't enjoy those activities, or that Jack does things with you because his wife doesn't enjoy those activities. It doesn't matter that it's a friendly thing, or that it's perfectly normal for married people to have friends that they go do things with that their spouse is uninterested in. It can too easily give the impression that both or either of you are unhappy in your relationships.

- Try not to seem very enthusiastic about the friendship. I know, it's lame, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I don't mean to sound apathetic about it, it's just that if you sound really excited instead of mellow toward it, it might raise her hackles. People who are newly in love sound excited, after all. (I get excited about new friendships and so do others, but not everyone understands that.)

I'm going to disagree with the other posters that say you seem to want something other than friendship with this guy. It came across to me that you were just making it clear that the wife should have nothing to worry about and you want to know how to get that across to her. Sometimes AskMeFi seems to have this "men and women can't just be friends if they have a spouse already" vibe that bothers me, and I feel like that's coming out here. If I'm wrong and everyone else is right, though, and despite what you say you feel sexual tension for him, then you already know you should just end the relationship. I don't think you came across that way, though.

Anyway, ultimately this is on how jealous Jill is. Try not to take it too personally if things go badly even though you gave it your best shot. If she's unaccepting of your friendship you should probably just bow out and let her and Jack work out whatever relationship problems prevent them from having good friends of the opposite sex. If you try to wait it out in the background while that goes on, it will probably only make things worse, so really: bow out if you have to.

Good luck, I hope it goes well!
posted by Nattie at 7:15 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I have to say I don't see this as a case of married/unmarried people being friends. I have both kinds, and I have married male friends with female friends and drinking buddies, and married female friends with male friends drinking buddies. In itself, there's nothing inherently wrong about the idea of married people hanging out with friends who are not married, and nothing startlingly unusual about it.

But here's the thing: if you're going to be single with married friends, or married with single friends, or the spouse of someone with single friends - then everybody needs to have good boundaries. Everybody needs to consider themselves whole and basically together, and not be looking to fill major gaps in their lives with the outside companions.

At first I really wanted to support you and say "no problem! It works all the time!" but I realized that it only works when everyone knows and trusts everyone else in those relationships, and no one is looking for inappropriate intimacy. And in your situation, you have the problem of having gotten really very intimate with someone before you met his spouse, so she's playing catch-up with getting to know you; and I think you and Jack also have the problem of being unsatisfied with some parts of your relationships, and seeing the other a a bit of a solution.

Of course no two people in a relationship can ever be everything to one another, which is why thank God we can and should have other friends. But I see an important difference between (a) enjoying someone's company and personality and friendship as part of a whole life that works, and (b) feeling that the person is filling a niche in my life that I really was hoping a partner would fill, and wish they did, but the partner is not able or willing. That's where I think the dangerous territory is.

It's great for me to be out with my friend John Doe, for instance, and think "I love hanging out with John Doe, it's fantastic to have someone who likes to discuss my favorite nerdy topics over a beer." But it can be a problem if I'm out with John Doe thinking "I love hanging out with John Doe, it's fantastic to have someone who likes to discuss my favorite nerdy topics over a beer just like I wish my SO would do but he doesn't so in so many ways I really feel closer to John Doe who understands parts of me my SO never can."

In sum, I think you both need to be careful because it seems like one or both of you might not have those strong boundaries here. I can't assume they're not there, but it does sound like Jack and Jill's marriage has some distance and trust problems, it sounds like he's lonely and maybe feeling neglected, and it sounds like you're finding out that maybe some things that are important to you in a partner are missing from your relationship with your SO. You might both be seeking a level of companionship that's really something other than 'friendship,' even if it isn't sexual. And when things are muddy like that, it's not hard to slip.

When Jill meets you, she's going to be looking to see if there are any signs that you are looking for more than is appropriate from her husband or have confused boundaries. She knows him a lot better than you do, too, and she might have reason to think his boundaries aren't the greatest. But that's him and her. The fact that you're even asking yourself all these questions hints, and bringing the character and logistics of your own relationship into the discussion, hints that you might already feel pretty attached to him.

If you go forward, definitely start planning stuff together as couples, or at least with both J & J there, at least some of the time. Try to find something you have in common with Jill, some activity like hiking or volunteering or cooking, and suggest that maybe you get together one day and do it as a way to get to know each other. You're going to have to show that you are comfortable with yourself, happy in your relationship, friendly to her, and totally comfortable with a truly 'friend'-ly relationship with her husband. She needs to know that your head is pointed in the right direction - showing interest in your own life and your own SO and your own work, and open to being friends with him, with her, with anyone -- because you are not out seeking some other kind of fulfillment. If you are used to having any kind of teasing, flirty banter with Jack, put that on the QT right now. It's up to you to show goodwill and take the edge off. Completely.

Even though my own life is proof that males and females, married and unmarried, can have great close friendships in all the permutations, it can't be done if there's any distrust - even of yourself. Check your motives, and promise yourself that you will always keep it appropriate.
posted by Miko at 7:17 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

how would a question read that didn't have this alleged subtext?

It wouldn't go into detail about his relationship with his wife or her relationship with her SO. Both would be satisfied or at least not talk about it in depth with new friends of the opposite sex.
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on March 12

It sounds to me like Jack has developed romantic feelings for you. In general, men do not hang out that much with women they like as "just friends."

He's probably lonely because his wife is gone so much. If he's told you he kind of resents that, it is probably safe to assume he's putting out a feeler. When people in relationships become interested in other people, they often will hint they are not too happy at home. It's like getting a toehold in a door crack.

It also sounds like you either don't return these romantic feelings; or you do, but are unaware of it as yet or simply in denial.

Jill's radar is up. Perhaps when Jack mentions you at home, his eyes light up or a sheepish grin plays around his mouth. Maybe he just talks about you a little too much.

My advice is to cool your jets with Jack. See him less often and tone down the personal confidences. After all, you do have to see him for grad school. Just don't go out drinking with him and don't have any romantic candlelight dinners. If you can't tone down the intimacy, out of respect for his marriage, you really ought to back off completely and be nothing but professional with him. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's what a decent person would do, IMHO.

Jack is the one in a serious, committed relationship, and it is up to him whether or not he chooses to stay in his marriage. It sounds like this marriage was troubled before your friendship with him began -- otherwise there would be no problem and you wouldn't be calling it a "mine field."

Innocent friendships do NOT "blow up in people's faces." On some level, you know that you and Jack have a connection neither of you feel with your SOs. If Jack's marriage is in trouble to the point where he wants to leave it eventually, he should be given the space to figure that out on his own without an attractive woman as an exit strategy.

It sounds like you guys are in emotional affair territory. You can't help how you feel, but you can at least stop encouraging yourselves to take it to the next level.
posted by xenophile at 7:21 PM on March 12 [6 favorites]

Oh, another thing I would suggest: always invite his wife along to whatever you and Jack go to do. All my guy friends invite my husband out with us, and sometimes he goes and sometimes he doesn't depending on how busy he is and whether it's something he wants to do.

Since you guys don't do a lot of stuff his wife likes to do, chances are she'll decline anyway, but she'll be less worried knowing that you invited her. And if she's actually interested in going, or else would just feel better if she went while she's still worried about all this, then that's good too. It'll help make her feel better in the long run.
posted by Nattie at 7:22 PM on March 12

I'd wonder if most people believe it to be even possible for hetero people of the opposite sex to be friends - do you?

Men and women can absolutely be friends without wanting to get it on - and men and women can also be friends where one or both kind of DOES, but they respect their own/the other's relationship and don't. But a question like that would read "I have a friend and I like hanging out and I hope we can continue to..." It wouldn't read:

what about the sexual tension and what about the fact we like to drink together, those all seem like they'd lead to disaster. OR

Jack and I agree we we've become sort of like family

She's talking about the intensity, and talking about worries that things will "lead to disaster" - when clearly, OP, if he were like a brother or a cousin you could get as drunk as you pleased, right? Anyway, there's no reason that you can't be friends, but with both of your SOs working all the time, and how smitten you are with each other, there's reason to be careful - and maybe date-ish things (like dinner and drinks) aren't the best way to spend time together.
posted by moxiedoll at 7:28 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

how would a question read that didn't have this alleged subtext?

It would be this long: I'm becoming pretty good friends with a married man, and I need tips for staying on the wife's good side.

I know plently of good M/F friendships and I'm in many myself, but once you start describing them as "complicated" it seems that you're adding a layer of complexity that most new friendships don't generally have which is what gets the raised eyebrow from me.

The wife in this case is not, as far as the OP has told us, sending off any "this is weird" vibes, she just wants to meet the OP. The long explanations just don't sound totally on the straight and narrow to me and I think it's worth a friendly mention that if they don't sound totally kosher to a bunch of strangers, they might not sound that way to someone who was more concerned about the situation.
posted by jessamyn at 7:29 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

I don't know that I see the subtext that there's more than you say there is (on your part), and as a fairly non-jealous person, in Jill's role I wouldn't really care much as long as Jack is spending more free time and attention with me than you -- phone/whatever when I'm away, and physical time when I'm around. I also don't care about flirty banter, though other people might disagree. Physical contact depends on a lot of things, but mostly it wouldn't bother me, either. Frankly, Jack should be the one dealing with all this, because he knows Jill and you don't.

I would be careful about the drinking and decide that you aren't going to get drunk with Jack regularly, because people do stupid things when they're drunk. (This is the only thing you've mentioned that would worry me significantly.)

That said, in the meeting:
1. It would be nice to have all 4 of you there, so Jill can see how you and Jack interact, and how you and SO interact and compare it.
2. Be interested in Jill, and mention some things Jack told you about her.
3. Be yourself, and be honest. I'd be most likely to be worried if I felt that you were hiding something, faking something, or lying about something.
posted by jeather at 7:32 PM on March 12

The wife in this case is not, as far as the OP has told us, sending off any "this is weird" vibes, she just wants to meet the OP.

Actually the OP says the wife not only wants to meet, but "wants to know what our intentions are and all of that sort of thing, some reassurance really." This isn't a simple "hey lets all hang out" meeting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 PM on March 12

Most of these answers make me want to scream and it speaks volumes about the insecurities of the posters here.

He's married, so he's no longer able to have anything resembling a close friendship with her? Because although we know "Jack" is a probably a real nice guy, deep down he's just a male, and therefore has absolutely no control, he'll whip his dangle out just as soon as he can, he can't help it and neither can anonymous-- that love thing he has for his wife, pffft, means nothing.

Because as we all know, it's simply impossible for a male to have a genuine friendship with a woman. A world full of strangers, it's so god-damn sad.

So anonymous, my advice-- just be yourself, don't act a certain way because most people can see fakeness from a mile off and will be suspicious of it.
Meet with her, with him, otherwise it just feels like a play-date or interview, hopefully you'll like her on a social level and you'll get another friend in the deal, and just let the cards fall where they may.

Have the private jokes, you've got absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, or anything to hide. If you both sit there worrying about what not to say you'll come across as someone, who, guess what, is hiding something!

Perhaps she'll be as insecure as the posters here, and Jack will sadly have to lose you as a friend to hold on to his lover, or perhaps y'know she'll actually trust her lover, it's a crazy thought, but stranger things have happened.

Sigh, trust, is it that underrated?
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:42 PM on March 12 [5 favorites]

I'm also going to go against the flow here.

I, a happily married 30-something straight male, have been in Jack's shoes a number of times. This is not something that necessarily leads to ruin. Over the course of our relationship, I've continued to make new friends and most of them happen to be amazing women. Sure there have been moments of insecurity and jealousy, and I will admit that I have been known to vent to some of them when my wife and I are having our issues.

Throughout our lives we continue to meet new people. Some of which we hit it off with. Shoot, some of which we may even be compatible with. Getting to know someone who shares your interests is really fun, and I'll even admit that there's something intoxicating about it when that someone is of the gender you prefer. None of this means that you're doomed.

Don't try to justify or rationalize this with his wife. It just looks like you're trying to hide something. Include her in things, or at least invite her. Sure there are things that you two like that she doesn't, but that doesn't mean those are the only things you can do together. Make an effort to get to know her as her own person.

I love the fact that my friends like my wife. I love the fact that when Mrs. Advicepig made a major life change, my friends were not only happy for her, but proud of her. I love Mrs. Advicepig dearly and very little makes me happier than knowing that my friends see how great she is and think the world of her too.

The real bottom line is this, we have a solid marriage built on trust, and this is really an issue more about our marriage than it is about anybody else.
posted by advicepig at 7:44 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

I think it's good that the wife wants to meet the OP. I think it's weird that she wants to know "what our intentions are". (Although I appreciate that that is the OP's paraphrase, not necessarily the wife's terminology.)
posted by yclipse at 8:12 PM on March 12

I think it's fair to note that while some people are saying men and women can never be friends and it will always lead to ruin, plenty of others are saying that they certainly can and often are friends, but when trouble does arise, it's because the relationships concerned are not solid.

For that second group, this isn't about whether married people can be friends with the opposite sex (yes they can), but whether the individuals concerned have those solid relationships and a shared commitment to making things work regardless of the vicissitudes of any lifetime's relationships. It's hard to say based on what little is in the question, but the details can be interpreted as fairly innocuous and beside the point, or as red flags -- and both interpretations are legitimate enough. I think it's worthwhile for the OP to think about both. This doesn't have to be at all weird, but if she feels unclear about her own intentions, it will be.
posted by Miko at 8:16 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

My SO and I have many female friends, some of whom we have both known for years and with whom we are both close. These women are OUR friends. It would never bother me in a million years if he were to hang out with them alone, when I'm busy, or even stay with them, or even go on trips with them. Because these are people I know. These people are my friends, too.

But my SO also has a few female friends that I do not know. These are people he has known for years, who, for many a reason, I just never got to know well. These women are not OUR friends, but HIS friends. I am not so unbothered by these friendships. Because I don't know them, I just don't really know if they are in any way a challenge to my relationship with SO. I don't know if maybe they're harboring secret crushes, or if their friendships are going beyond the boundaries that I am comfortable with... Because I don't know them.

If you really want your friendship with this guy to work out, I think you need to stop being HIS friend and instead become THEIR friend. Probably you'll never be as good of friends with her as you are with him, but you need to be able to interact with them as a couple. You need to understand him, not just as an individual, but also as half of a married couple. And she needs to know you understand him this way, too.
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:21 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

Snap theory -- if you really thought this was all ok and you didn't think you were doing anything wrong, you wouldn't be posting this anonymously.

Someone upthread described this as an emotional affair. That sounds about right. Does b/c there are no genitals involved does not make this any less damaging to your existing relationships. I strongly suggest you reconsider this and make the necessary adjustments.
posted by modernnomad at 8:23 PM on March 12

"Does b/c" = "just because"... sorry.
posted by modernnomad at 8:24 PM on March 12

You sound really defensive. It doesn't have to be dramatic; the fact that you're making it so makes it seem worse than it is. Become friends with her---even if you just don't like her. Or, perhaps, admit that you like him more than you should.
posted by juliplease at 8:35 PM on March 12

Anywhere from 25-50% of my friends at any given time are male. I've had plenty of boyfriends with female friends. I'm friends with married couples. In none of those cases would I have have described the friendship with anything close to the intensity and drama you describe here unless I had more-than-friendship feelings for the dude. If it's just friendship it just doesn't really raise all those issues. I admire my married male friends very much. I think they're kind, funny, nice-looking, and good-hearted. But I don't feel like I've found my best friend in any of them either. There's no electricity, there's just good solid friendliness and support. The way you describe your interaction with this guy sounds like you're investing a whole lot more in this emotionally than you would a typical friendship, and that, combined with the fact you're both to some extent unsatisfied in your current relationships, seems like it could lead to one or both of you developing feelings.
posted by MsMolly at 8:56 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

You should definitely meet her and if it was me, I would ask him for her email address. Then I would email them both and tell her that I would love to meet her. And invite them both to stuff - coffee, drinks, dinner, whatever. Keep inviting her to stuff and when you email him, make sure she is on the thread. Even if she can't go 95% of the time, you are making sure that she knows both of them are invited and you are letting her know that you consider them a couple.
posted by gt2 at 9:39 PM on March 12

As others have said, it's not that men and women can't be friends, but that the OP is "trying to navigate a mine field", describes her friendship with this guy much like the beginning of a relationship (first they worked together, then chatting online and going to lunch, and finally a few days ago they went for dinner & drinks - rather than hanging out with buddies, occasional coffee, catching up after dept events...) and directly admits to sexual tension (which at least for me is not a given just because you're hanging out with someone of the opposite sex).

I would take a step back and think about your own relationship first of all. Then include Jill in your relationship to Jack casually, and try to make your friendship with Jack a little less intense - just someone you meet for coffee now and then or something, or run into at school things, but not your best friend, at least not until the sexual tension has died down.
posted by mdn at 9:44 PM on March 12

In fact, if it was me, I would get her email address and always invite her to everything, or if the invite comes from him, include her in it. You definitely need to communicate to her that you consider them a couple at all times.
posted by gt2 at 9:45 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

Oof. I've been around this block a time or thirty. Like you, I'm a woman who tends to do better with guys that with girls. I am also someone who (I am told) sometimes puts out flirt-signals without knowing it. Since, in addition to these things, I am madly, passionately, monogamously in love with my husband; and since I want my married-or-partnered friends to have lives as simple and drama-free as possible, there are a few rules that I always try to follow. Here are some of them:

(1) Make the biggest fuss you can over the opposite-gender friend's significant other, without going over the edge into phoniness. When you see the two of them together (and you have to see them together), greet her first. Take care to remember the things she tells you about her life, and make a point of following up on them. This probably sounds like sucking up, and to some extent it is-- but you can be genuine about it. If you truly think that Jack is the bee's knees, and he truly thinks that Jill's the bee's knees, there's likely going to be some basis for mutual admiration between you and Jill. Find it. Build on it.

(2) Never, ever, ever say anything negative about your partner to Jack, and do not be receptive if he starts to make negative comments about Jill. If necessary, take Jill's part in any discussion about her merits. Mutual kvetching about unsatisfactory partners is nothing but a prelude to a spit-swap. Don't go there.

(3) If you find yourself wanting to dress up for an otherwise innocuous coffee date with Jack-- don't. If you start feeling warm, squishy, crushy feelings, take a break from hanging out with him. If you start noticing him gazing moonily or touching you more-- take a break. Nothing but icky, sticky, wretched, Titus Andronicus-style drama can come of letting these things run unchecked. Don't discuss it with him-- just disengage. That might seem counter-intuitive, but really, the last thing you want to do is start having long talks about the presence or absence of romantic feelings with the guy. In my experience, that only serves to deepen the wrong kind of intimacy.

(4) Include other people as much as possible. Double date, to whatever extent that's feasible. Invite other grad students along when you go drinking. Don't build a special little two-person word with him-- that's for romantic partners, not for platonic friends.

(5) If any of these things sound impossible or un-fun, realize that things may already have gone too far in the wrong direction. If that's the case, stand up straight and take responsibility for putting things in order.

Good luck with this.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:15 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]

Poor Jill. It does seem a bit as though she's being sort of metaphorically measured for her coffin here. Hmmm... no kids, no pets, but they do have a mortgage.

Honestly, I don't think there is really anything you can do to ensure that she won't interfere in your friendship, since, really, to some degree, you are interfering in her marriage - at least enough that you've made her worry. The best you can do is be yourself, and hope you two hit it off. She will be taking her measure of you, and if you sound as though you have a rehearsed line, it probably won't help things.

At any rate I would advise you to tread gently, because you are dealing with two very vulnerable people - him because he is lonely and feeling a bit neglected, and her because she is pursuing an education/career that is notoriously demanding and unforgiving. She would probably love to watch cheesy horror flicks and go out for cocktails with her husband, if it only weren't for those pesky 30-hour shifts, 80-hour weeks, and out-of-town rotations. I'm sure you don't want to make this grueling existence any more stressful for her than it already is.

In your position I would look for ways to expand your friendship to add more people to the mix... and, as palmcorder_yajna so wisely mentions, if it feels to you as though this would spoil things, you are already in trouble.
posted by taz at 10:42 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

I'm saddened and frustrated by how many people seem to feel that married people need to be each other's everything, to the exclusion of all other emotional attachments. The OP made a pretty clear case for sex not being what she's after, and doesn't describe the drinking as more than social, so the dire warnings of how this is obviously heading toward a drunken romp in the sack seem a overblown.

On the other hand, anonymous, you're already talking about this as a "minefield." If you don't want her to be an adversary, don't treat her like one. If you care about Jack the way you say you do, you should be happy to get to know the woman he's married, yes? That's the level of intimacy best friend/chosen family implies.
posted by desuetude at 10:38 AM on March 14

It sounds like you are both getting from each other the satisfaction and understanding that you are not getting in your current relationships.

Being "close friends" like this WILL put your significant other relationships in jeopardy. Period. This does not sound like "just friends." You practically gave us a list of things that you are unsatisfied with in your current relationship and then told us how Jack has all those awesome qualities. Affairs happen when a person isn't getting X from their relationship and so turns elsewhere for that satisfaction (or they're just a jackhole).

This is not to say that significant others should provide everything in our lives. But it is to say that when you are in a relationship with one person, and begin to depend solely on someone else for emotional support and intellectual stimulation...the sex is not often far behind.

And does it REALLY have to get to sex to realize that what is going on is NOT exactly KOSHER?

Do you talk to him about your significant other and the ways that he does not satisfy you?

Does he complain to you about his wife and how he never sees her? RED FLAG. RED FLAG.

My husband and I both have close friends who are of the opposite sex. And we both are very flirtatious. But there are lines we do not cross, and one of those lines is inviting someone else into knowledge about our relationship. If my husband is driving me nuts, it is way over the line to go to one of my opposite sex friends and confide in them. That is what sisters are for. OR best lady friends who I have ZERO, and I mean ZERO sexual tension with.

The point of this is, as soon as one of the ways you bond with Jack is by talking about the ways that partner X isn't around, or doesn't like the same things, or isn't great in Y way, you are already opening the door. Jack's wife has EVERY RIGHT to be upset as hell by all the time y'all are spending together and the conversations you are having, and even if you meet her, her anger will not go away.

You are on a slippery slope, and there is no easy way to get out. You already care a great deal about Jack, but do care enough to let him to bond with his wife and not you? Her absence (due to work) does not justify you stepping in and being his shoulder to lean on. She is still his wife.

As for your own relationship with your significant other...I don't know. It sounds like you have more fun with Jack and are trying to justify this to yourself.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:23 AM on March 20