Madison, WI - or - Lawrence, KS

March 11, 2009 7:52 PM

I need some Madison, WI and Lawrence, KS comparisons. Which one? I see these two college towns brought up many times here on askme and other places when questions about walkability, simplicity, urbanity in a small setting, etc. are discussed. I ask because I am looking at possibly moving and have pretty much narrowed it down to Madison or Lawrence (with Asheville an outside possibility). I don't mean demographics, weather, etc. Inside I'll tell you what I'm looking for.....

I'm talking about things like:

1) Could I get rid of my car and walk, bike, use only public transportation and it be reasonable thing to do?

2) Are there neighborhoods that are so close to everything one needs on a regular basis (groceries, pharmacy, bank) and would like to visit regularly (movie theaters, museums, libraries, etc.), that would make it similar to an urban setting?

3) Any mefites have experience with both cities for some reason? It would be interesting to hear from someone who has experienced both.

4) Quality of public transportation?

The questions above give you an idea of what I'm looking for. Those of you in Madison and Lawrence - make your best pitch (pro or con!). Those of you who have maybe just visited and have observations, or want to throw in a thought for any reason - join in.

To get them out of the way: Yes, I know Lawrence is warmer. Yes, I know Madison is bigger (but Lawrence is just a short distance from Kansas City). It's these other things I'm really looking for.

Look forward to the replies. As always, thanks in advance!

posted by Gerard Sorme to society & culture (18 comments total)

You don't need a car in Madison if you live downtown, although when you hit that week of 0 degree F highs it is nice to drive instead of walk or bike. It is an absolutely great city in which to live, if you like small towns which are a bit more cosmopolitan that one would think given their size (but this is not to say that Madison is really that cosmopolitan). The farmer's market in the capitol square is great, State Street is the place to be, it is deliciously liberal, the weather sucks, just outside of town are myriad nature wonderlands, the people are friendly, it is cheap, there are many, many good things to say about this town, but the weather really does suck, did I mention the week of 0 degree highs?
posted by caddis at 8:17 PM on March 11

I'm in Madison now, never lived in KS.

1. Yes, if you're smart about where you live and work - Madison is spread out around two major lakes, so getting "across town" can mean a very long bike ride or 30-60 minutes on a bus. The trip will be pleasant, to be certain, but I moved after my first year here because I was tired of spending ~3hrs/day circumnavigating the lakes. Biking with traffic is safe enough, as lots of streets have bike/bus lanes, and the bike trails themselves are superlative.

2. Living downtown I was close to *everything*, but it was kind of expensive. Good news is, in terms of cultural experience, the bus lines into the downtown area are generally the fastest and most frequent. (Previously, neighborhoods.)

4. Good coverage, reliable, drivers and passengers are decent, and the buses have bike racks that are free to use. Waiting for a bus in winter, though - especially if the roads are bad - can just hurt. This year I put snow tires on my bike and didn't even bother with the buses.
posted by teremala at 8:28 PM on March 11

I've spent a lot of time in both cities. To take your answer point by point:

1) You could do both in both places. I'd give Lawrence the nod, though, since housing is a lot cheaper and therefore you have greater choice of where to live and can thus be strategic. The weather is generally better too - especially during the school year. Winters aren't too bad. They're horrific in Madison.

2) If you lived near the university in Lawrence, it's all there within walking distance: downtown, with banks, restaurants, shops, bars . . . the university and public libraries . . . several museums on campus, movies and concerts both downtown and on campus, and so on. You could *easily* live without a car. Madison is a little more spread out, but it can be done there too. To be in the better neighborhoods can be costly.

3) I like them both, but I prefer Lawrence. It's nicer in many ways, but it has a better local music scene by far. Both places offer most of what you'd want, outside of big city stuff. It's much easier to live cheaply in Lawrence (as I've mentioned) and have the same lifestyle. It's a little more casual and a lot less cliquey than Madison, from what I've seen. The downside to Lawrence is that it's close only to KC as far as big cities go . . . and it's one of the worst big cities in America - Lawrence actually offers much more. (I speak from experience.) Madison is just three hours or so from Chicago, which is an advantage in my opinion. Both places have something of a hippie vibe; people in Lawrence seem a little more natural about it, though. Madison is a lot bigger than Lawrence - about two-and-a-half times as big. But the extra people don't add anything to what you'd find in Lawrence, and I'd argue that they make the city a little less enjoyable.

4) I've never taken Madison public transportation. Lawrence has an inexpensive bus system, which runs on a set schedule and is pretty convenient. That said, you could easily live without it. It's certainly adequate to basic needs. But Lawrence is an exceedingly walkable town, which is one of my favorite things about it.

Here's a cost of living comparison:

Lawrence / Madison
Overall 87 / 93
Food 95 / 100
Housing 66 / 80
Utilities 111 / 118
Transportation 97 / 101
Health 91 / 106
Miscellaneous 99 / 95

I have no idea what "miscellaneous" refers to, but in all other areas, Madison is more expensive. These are apparently "averages," and I can tell you that housing in a groovy part of Madison is probably double what it is in a groovy part of Lawrence (not just 21% more) - and that's the biggest controllable expense you'll have.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 8:49 PM on March 11

Lawrence, Kansas in my experience:

1: Get rid of your car? I wouldn't. If you live on the Eastern/Southern side of the town (oldest part, the 'downtown' district) A Qualified yes. However housing in this area is pretty much limited to worn out houses that haven't been kept up in years, relatively low end rental apartments, frat houses, and insanely high end absolutely beautiful houses.
Most new development in the city is occurring on the West side of town. This housing is your run of the mill suburban US housing tracts (identical houses, looping streets, no grid like layout, and relative distance from shops because everyone has 2 cars).
Cycling distance: I live about a 6 minute bike ride from the university and from the downtown district (1 minute from 2 large grocery stores). If you wanted to cycle around for non-errands you absolutely could, and more and more people are. However Lawrence bills itself as much more bike friendly than it really is. I've come close to being struck a dozen times or more on a simple 5 minute commute to work or downtown, day or night (with safety lights) several times by cops. The town just isn't all that bike friendly, less so in the newer areas. Very pedestrian friendly though.
2: See above. Areas that tend to be within easy walking distance of the downtown district (bars, local shops, local restaurants) are pretty much the furthest from grocery, big box, chain stuff and limited to the kind of housing I listed above. Museums: you've pretty much just got what KU has to offer and a couple of small local ones in the downtown district.

3: Nope, just KS. Though I've visited Rochester MN, and Milwaukee WI, I would say Lawrence is less walkable than both. Lawrence has expanded dramatically in recent history and that expansion has by far favored the standard suburban mentality (residents will drive to where they need to go).

4: Lacking, but attempts are being made to make it better. It used to be that the University of Kansas and the City of Lawrence both ran separate transit systems (all buses). If I'm not mistaken they're being reduced to a common system. Just in the last year or so Lawrence hired some contractors to review the public transit system and they all said scale it back. A recent ballot measure was passed to expand the system, but I'm not holding out hopes. The wait between buses in some high demand areas is ridiculous. The route and schedule info is online, so you can check that out.
posted by Science! at 9:07 PM on March 11

And yeah, this winter is an outlier, but it has been absolutely balmy in Lawrence. Yep, without trying all that hard you can live cheap as dirt in Lawrence. Local grocery stores count on good will and volume to undercut Walmart on a ridiculous amount of fresh food, you can get a men's haircut downtown for 9 bucks, rent in a few selected older but nice complexes is cheap.
posted by Science! at 9:11 PM on March 11

No one mentions this, but a serious issue about car vs. public transit is hours of operation. Are the buses in Madison and Lawrence running at night, so suitable to support one's social life? I've seen too many smaller cities fail in this regard!
posted by Goofyy at 9:44 PM on March 11

Good point. The public bus system in Lawrence operates from 6AM-8PM, so is not available for early AM jobs or transport back from a night on the town. Most routes the KU system (guess they didn't consolidate) runs start even later and end even earlier.
posted by Science! at 10:00 PM on March 11

Haven't been to Lawrence, but I grew up in Madison. If you live downtown or on the Near East Side, you can survive without a car, especially in the summer. (As others have noted, the winters are brutal. I used to ride my bike up to the end of November, but after that it's too cold.) If you live further away from the isthmus, you'll want a car.

The public transportation system is OK, but not incredible. Just buses - no LRV or subway. I never used it much.

I used to live just off State St and walked to everything I needed, except for occasionally driving out to the edge of town to go grocery shopping. You could also live near Willy St and be OK.

Madison is really a fun place for nine months out of the year. From December to February, you start to understand why it has such a high alcoholism rate, as it's too cold to go outside, so you stay in and drink the cheap beer.
posted by chbrooks at 10:48 PM on March 11

Some great answers. Thanks for taking the time, some of you went all out. Keep them coming!! I'll mark some favorites Thursday afternoon.
posted by Gerard Sorme at 10:50 PM on March 11

$350 a month got me half a house and a half acre back yard in North Lawrence. I could walk or bike across the bridge to downtown, which had everything I could possibly need. The neighborhood was nice and safe, so long as you don't mind a blue collar feel. I could walk, run, or bike five blocks to the levy trails and spend endless time in the countryside... I have so many good memories from those trails and the woods, running through the trees on a crisp Spring morning with my dog bounding alongside me. There are some great bars and venues in old buildings in Lawrence. Check out Henry's and the 8th St taproom if you visit. Avoid the Bourgeois Pig, it's as hipster and affected as it sounds.

Public transportation will easily get you to a big box supermarket or anything else you might need. After graduation, I commuted to Topeka and simply stopped at stores outside of downtown on the way home so that I would not have to drive otherwise.

Lawrence has an interesting art and community performance scene. Nearby Kansas City has the Kemper museum of modern art, the Nelson Atkins art museum, and the World War I museum, world class cultural attractions that not many people seem to have heard of, not to mention many vibrant neighborhoods and an awesome First Friday art deal the 1st of every month.

I loved my five years of undergrad and year of work living in Lawrence, although it definitely started to seem like a small place by the time I left. I was considering Madison for grad school and was told by many people that the culture was nearly identical to Lawrence, except in a larger setting. From my time looking for prospective places in Madison, the cost of living is much higher for smaller living quarters, often without a yard. Someone upthread knocked the quality of housing in the near-downtown Lawrence neighborhoods, and there are some bad houses, but there are also a number of real gems with wonderful yard, firepits, and easy access to downtown. I'll take $350 a month, peace and quiet, and a huge yard over $550 for a two room, second story apartment any day of my life.

Sorry, this has been stream-of-thought writing, I don't have time to polish it, but I hope my enthusiasm for Lawrence has shone through. Just don't accrue too many exes in the town or it will start to seem really small.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 10:55 PM on March 11

Madison's bus system is OK I think. The buses generally run on time (1-3 minute window) and they are fairly clean. You can check the schedule yourself if you want, but a casual check shows that most routes begin around 5:30AM and end around 11:30PM. There is also a Safe Ride option for later times in the area around the campus.

If you want to give up your car there is always the Community Car option. Parking in the city can be annoying (snow emergency) or expensive ($80/month off-street for one example).

Madison is also close to Milwaukee and not too far from Chicago or Minneapolis if you like that kind of thing. Van Galder buses can take you there for day trips.
posted by Horatius at 10:57 PM on March 11

I'm living in Madison right now. I'm originally from Seattle.

So far I really like it here. The mid west cold was a bitch at first but you get use to it.

1) I live by state street so it's only about a mile walk to all my classes. Besides using a car to get to class can usually be a drag since there are no parking spots anywhere.

2) Yeah, it's a great city. Everything you need is close by. The nearby grocery store even has a discount every Wednesday for university students.

4) The metro website is one of the worst things I've ever used and compared to Seattle the bus system here is kind of lame. But you get a pass from the school so it's not that big of a deal. Just have to make sure you don't go too far out since buses stop running pretty early.
posted by Allan Gordon at 1:49 AM on March 12

I lived in Lawrence for five years and have visited Madison several times.

Public Transit in Lawrence is slowly catching on. If you ride the KU buses you can get around well from most of central Lawrence to the university and the city transit will take you to the rest of the city. I would just take a quick look at the bus schedule. When I lived there they had just started the buses and they ran only once every 45 minutes which is not as convenient as one might like, but doable. That being said, with the bus and a moped you can get anywhere for most of the year. The town is very moped friendly and it used to be that you could ride to campus and park it right next to your class (when cars aren't allowed on campus proper).

As for museums, movies, shoppping, stuff to do: I actually find Lawrence better than where I live in Chicago. In Lawrence I had a house that was a 10 minute walk from downtown and EVERYTHING. In Chicago you have to get on public transit and wait an hour to get anywhere.
When I visited Madison it seemed like most things were in the downtown area, but I didn't see close by grocery stores and movie theaters. However, I may not have been looking in the right places.

nthng the COLD of Madison. The two times I've visited Madison I stayed downtown without a car. I was walking everywhere and it was so cold I was crying. I didn't ever cry from cold in Lawrence.
posted by aetg at 3:41 AM on March 12

Disclaimer: Although I've lived in Madison for 8 years, I do have a car. I know people who don't, and couples who have one car between the two of them, and they do OK. As posted before, the bus system is pretty decent, and there are places you can live where you can walk to most the things, if not all, that you really need. There are a number of small groceries in these neighborhoods, but you may need a big bag and a bus ticket to hit a supermarket now and then. The Community Car option that Horatio mentioned might be worth a look. They have a nice fleet that includes a Mini, a Prius, and a small pickup truck so a CC member could potentially have more automotive fun and utility than a car owner.

Cycling is really big here and a lot of people bike everywhere. Madison's been listed as the "most bike friendly city" a number of times but bike-friendliness really varies depending on where you're going to and from. Some places are great, others are no safer/more convenient to bike to and from than any other city. And there there is the winter...

As others have said, winters are horrible. But, summer and fall are really nice. There might not be many nicer places in the summer than Madison. Winter seems long because it seems to drag on and on, but I was still riding my road bike well into November, and I'm not one of those hardcore year-round cyclists.

Feel free to MeFi mail me if you have any questions or want to know more.
posted by altcountryman at 6:57 AM on March 12

Freestate brewery in Lawrence. Oh gods how I miss it.
posted by ducktape at 10:29 AM on March 12

I know nothing about Lawrence, but as a Madison resident since the age of 10 (and through just about all levels of the student experience) I am obviously biased. I have to say that the idea of choosing a place in Kansas over Madison is laughable. I feel spoiled living here. Honestly, when we moved back to the Midwest, my parents probably could have chosen Lawrence, as my dad grew up in Kansas and was probably pretty familiar with the area. As far as I know, they didn't even think about it.

1) Yep, it's easy. I was a Community Car member for a couple of years until some life changes led me to get a car. It's a great system that keeps adding vehicles. The only drawbacks are staying at an event for a limited amount of time or feeling guilty about going to a movie and paying to leave your car outside :P The cab companies are not bad, the bus system is also not bad (and if you attend or work for UW you get a free bus pass, which is AWESOME), and the bike paths will get you just about anywhere.

2) Oh yes. The movie theaters are the only thing that are a little hit-or-miss for being easy to get to (the big theaters are mostly on the outskirts, and the choices downtown can be a little limited -- though we do apparently have a brand new University Square theater that I never see advertised...), but you can almost certainly bus to them within a couple blocks. Madison is very walkable.

Yes, the weather sucks ass. It was about 50 degrees on Tuesday night and when I woke up on Wednesday it was 12ish. Buy a good coat and boots and you'll be okay.

The downtown area is SUPER moped friendly. Well, friendly in the sense that people are really used to them and you have to park in designated areas, but still. I loved riding a moped around town for the most part.

Our restaurants and foodie events are awesome. We're so lucky that we not only have a wide variety of restaurants (most per capita, I believe) but that there's a level of excitement about new ones that forces eateries to keep up a pretty high standard.

Transportation to other cities is pretty good. I'd say the only thing that stinks is getting to the Twin Cities, but we now have a Megabus stop, so that's good. Getting to Chicago or Milwaukee is very easy with the Badger and Van Galder/CoachUSA buses, which are clean, cheap (enough) and on time.

One thing people haven't really talked about are the natural areas. Again, I don't know much about Lawrence, but Kansas is... kinda flat, right? We have beautiful glaciated areas, wonderful hiking, loads of opportunities for water sports and other outdoor activities, stunning fall colors, great camping, blah blah blah... I'm not even a lover of the outdoors and I can tell you that it's amazing.

I LOVE geeking out about my town. MeFiMail me if you have any questions.
posted by Madamina at 12:26 PM on March 12

I often hear Madison characterized as "hippy" or "bohemian" and while there is a good measure of that, there is also quite a bit of "frat boy" big-ten beer culture. It can be hard to avoid if you're near campus on the day of a Badgers game.
posted by werkzeuger at 4:47 PM on March 12

All these answers are great - just what I was looking for. I could have marked 80% of them with "Best Answer" but I marked only two for the effort and good info.

Just a quick note to Madamina:
You had some super information in your reply and I appreciated it. I only wish you had refrained from the regional-bashing and stereotypical assumptions. You wrote, "I have to say that the idea of choosing a place in Kansas over Madison is laughable." This tells me you haven't been to Lawrence and have a stereotype of "plains states" that don't always hold true. There are always islands. I mean, even Texas has Austin - one of America's great cities in my opinion. Lawrence is such an island. It is in NE Kansas which is not as flat as central and western Kansas - I think it's a very pretty town. As is Madison, don't get me wrong. I just found the stereotypical thinking off-putting, and that's not to take away all the great things you had to say about Madison. It was helpful. I just think we should stop and think twice before posting certain comments about places we know nothing about - no matter how great you think your own city is. I hope you understand what I'm saying. I mean well.

Thanks again to everyone. I am again astounded at the hive mind's ability to bring such good information to the digital table here at MeFi.
posted by Gerard Sorme at 10:19 PM on March 12