Remember you told me to tell you when you were acting rudely and insensitively? Remember that? You're doing it right now.

March 7, 2009 3:41 PM

How to make it clear to a socially awkward adolescent boy that he's spending too much time with a younger adolescent girl, and that it's likely to hurt their friendship (as the girl gets more and more resentful towards him for isolating her from her friends)?

Socially awkward adolescent boy, hyperactive, trustworthy, but with no hobbies, befriends cute adolescent girl. They live near each other, so he is at girl's house or she is at boy's house every weekend. They ride the bus to get home from school in the afternoons, and now boy is getting ride with girl to school in the mornings, too. They have assigned seats on the bus, and the boy specifically requested that the girl's seat be changed to be nearer to him.

Girl is complaining -- actual quotes:
"He calls me like 6 times a day." It's not an exaggeration.
"He keeps me from hanging out with my friends." This may be an exaggeration; sometimes they hang out when she doesn't have anything else planned.
"I can't daydream on the bus anymore because he's always talking to me." This is not an exaggeration because the boy talks constantly (personal experience, which prompted the title quote).
"I just want to draw sometimes and I can't because he wants to keep showing me stuff that I don't care about or talk about his video games."

In the past, the boy has asked to have the girl spend the night at his house and he's started giving her gifts -- like candy for Valentine's day and unsolicited gifts of candy or food whenever he comes over. While the boy has other friends, he's not been spending time with them; choosing to spend time with the girl.

We've already had the talk to the boy directly about how the girl was too young to have a boyfriend. Now what? Institute limits on how many times he calls or comes over? Talk to the bus driver about switching seats?

Do we talk to the boy or to his parents? What do we say?

Or should the girl talk to the boy herself? (They are both in middle school; he's 1.5 years old than her.) What should she say?

Thanks for the help!

posted by parilous to human relations (49 answers total)

This depends entirely on your relationship to the boy. Who are you? A parent? A teacher?
posted by prefpara at 3:48 PM on March 7, 2009

Daughter should handle this situation herself, with advice but not intervention from her parents. It will be a valuable learning experience in boundry setting. It's OK to say no to a friend; she should be encouraged to reclaim her free time for herself when she prefers to be alone.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:48 PM on March 7, 2009 [16 favorites]

what is your relationship to the boy or girl?
posted by By The Grace of God at 3:48 PM on March 7, 2009

re: relationship -- Sorry; didn't make that clear. I'm the legal guardian of the girl.
posted by parilous at 3:49 PM on March 7, 2009

I wouldn't hope to solve the problem for this girl, but to teach the girl to solve it herself in the future.

When she complains, I'd talk to her like I'd talk to an adult female friend as much as possible. "Have you talked to him about this? What does he say?" "Wow, you hung out with him all weekend? You must not need as much time alone as I do. If I hung out with someone all weekend, I'd probably get so tired of him." "Yeah, that would bother me too! How could you get a little more space?" In other words, help her notice and then validate her own discomfort, and help her brainstorm ways she could address it.
posted by salvia at 3:58 PM on March 7, 2009 [4 favorites]

Valuable learning experience advice from TPS is spot on.
posted by Pants! at 3:58 PM on March 7, 2009

Just curious--it's this kid, right?

I think you should prep your niece to handle the bus situation herself--coach her to tell him she wants some time alone to think, or something like that. Tell her to be firm, but polite. Encourage her to do the same thing about socializing with him, and also institute limits as to how much they can play and talk on the phone--once a week, etc. I mean, if he's calling that much, he's got to be tying up the phone line and making it difficult for her to get homework done, you know?

I had a similar problem with my next door neighbor in elementary school. She'd come over every single day, uninvited (once my father found her playing with my toys in my room when I wasn't home!) It took me a few years to feel brave enough to answer her "I'll see you tomorrow" with "Maybe, if I feel like playing." It's hard to turn someone down, especially if they're a twelve year old boy who might be a little bit in love with you. Help her be strong enough to set up those boundaries!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:02 PM on March 7, 2009

PhoBWanKenobi: It's a different boy, but yes -- it's the same girl.
posted by parilous at 4:07 PM on March 7, 2009

Also, just an addeddum -- I've personally laid down rules with the boy only to have him try to ignore or defy them. "She needs to be home at 8" means that she's walking in the house after 8:30 with a look of panic because he'd hidden her cell phone or done something else to delay her leaving. I've tried to nip this in the bud with the boy ("You're only going to get her into trouble if you keep that up."), but the fact that he continues to ignore rules suggests that he's used to getting his way after wearing down others (adults and kids alike).

That said, my niece has been clear that she has tried to institute boundaries. I agree that she needs to continue, but was thinking that I needed to have a "it's beginning to look like you're acting like her boyfriend" kind of talk with the boy. Thanks for the alternate advice so far.
posted by parilous at 4:17 PM on March 7, 2009

I was traumatized in 3rd grade by an awkward boy who had a crush on me (it wasn't inappropriate behavior for that age, but still embarrassing). I probably would've taken more of a proactive role if I had been in 6th grade, but even so, I really needed the help of teachers and my parents to get him to bugger off. SOooo, one thing I might do if I were you is see about getting the bus seating rearranged. If you can find some excuse, and give her a way of explaining that she had nothing to do with it, it could help her a lot. Just getting a few "safe" places where she doesn't have to talk to him might be a welcomed relief and help her deal with the other inconveniences.

Definitely try to coach her on how to handle it. Sixth grade is not old enough to be able to handle a brush off maturely (and without being horrible to the boy-- it's not his fault he doesn't know how to behave in this situation yet). If you're much older and/or male, I would try to get a female (late teens/20's) to broach the subject with her.

In my case, it was too embarrassing to tell my parents the full extent of his efforts. It was a young teaching intern who finally asked if I wanted his "love letters" and helped me tell him to back off when I said no. Bless her!

PS-- your update is alarming. I'd have a serious talk with him about skirting the rules. Are there consequences for her being late? Maybe he will get the picture if 30 minutes late translates to 3 weeks of no "play dates" with him. He sounds like bad news, though.
posted by parkerjackson at 4:21 PM on March 7, 2009

I've tried to nip this in the bud with the boy ("You're only going to get her into trouble if you keep that up."), but the fact that he continues to ignore rules suggests that he's used to getting his way after wearing down others (adults and kids alike).

He's not following your rules because you're not his parent/guardian, and he won't suffer any true consequences if the rules are broken. Obviously guilt ("you'll get her in trouble") doesn't work. Maybe the girl will give him shit, but what does he *really* have to lose if she's not home on time, as long as she's willing to hang out late/break the rules? Perhaps you need to be a bit more strict with the girl? If she's not home by 8 on Wednesday, she can't go out/watch tv/play videogames Thursday or Friday. It still comes down to her dealing with it, even if it's under threat of punishment.

(Wow, I'm not a parent, but I'm starting to sound like mine. omfg, what is happening!)

I know it's tough, especially since it's not the traditional parent/child relationship. It's tricky at this age under any circumstances.
posted by AlisonM at 4:27 PM on March 7, 2009

She needs to be home at 8" means that she's walking in the house after 8:30 with a look of panic because he'd hidden her cell phone or done something else to delay her leaving.

That's a warning sign to me -- his parents need to be spoken to. That sort of manipulative behavior bodes poorly for his relating with the opposite sex as an adult, and it's the responsibility of his parents to teach him that it's unacceptable.
posted by paultopia at 4:29 PM on March 7, 2009 [18 favorites]

Oh, and she was late because he hid her cell phone and wouldn't leave without it? All that matters is that she was late. Otherwise, there will always be an excuse. The priority is being home on time. If the kid has her cell phone, you need to call his parents to get it. And the boy is a dick. But it sounds like a made-up excuse to me.

wow i really sound like my dad, ok, leaving this thread now.
posted by AlisonM at 4:32 PM on March 7, 2009

If he's isolating her from her other friends, hiding her phone and otherwise trying to keep her to himself, it's a lot deeper than a crush and could easily be going to a very scary place. You need to talk to his parents, and you should know his parents.

Teaching a teenage girl to set her own boundaries is good, but at her age, she still needs backup, and if she's talking to you about it it's likely because she needs some help. The fact that he disregards your rules for her makes me feel fear.
posted by medea42 at 4:43 PM on March 7, 2009 [5 favorites]

paultopia: she's walking in the house after 8:30 with a look of panic because he'd hidden her cell phone or done something else to delay her leaving

Dude, really? Is this just an excuse on her part, or what really happened? This is abusive, controlling behavior on his part, and I would severely limit her contact with him outside of school. No fucking way.
posted by peep at 4:44 PM on March 7, 2009 [5 favorites]

"She needs to be home at 8" means that she's walking in the house after 8:30 with a look of panic because he'd hidden her cell phone or done something else to delay her leaving. I've tried to nip this in the bud with the boy ("You're only going to get her into trouble if you keep that up."), but the fact that he continues to ignore rules suggests that he's used to getting his way after wearing down others (adults and kids alike).

Wow, there's something slightly scary about that. If he's that manipulative, I don't think talking to him is going to do any good; I think she shouldn't be allowed to hang out at his house if he's actively making it impossible to get her home on time. She might be upset about this (especially since he's probably going to kvetch), but really, he doesn't sound trustworthy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:45 PM on March 7, 2009

If I were you, I would tell his parents he's not allowed to see her anymore. It doesn't sound like the girl would be that upset not to be able to see him anymore. It sounds like she's being polite to a fault, and he's taking advantage of that.
posted by fantasticninety at 4:51 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

I too think TPS has an awesome answer for this. The girl should handle the interaction as much as she's capable of (even if she's a little uncomfortable doing it), but you need to be there to discuss it with her and back her choices up and step in in an instant if an adult blows her off. Even to say that you made the choices and that whatever they are, are final.

As far as the cell phone hiding thing, technically it's her or your property and no one get's to touch it without permission, done deal, matter settled. That's something that really needs to be dealt with, as an easy fall back you can say that you don't want to be held liable for calls she didn't make, she needs to control the phone. At the same time, perhaps get her an emergency phone card for, the more and more rare, payphone or tell her that her first priority should be to get home safe. Even if she has to go to a coffee shop, grocery store, gas station, or police station to contact you, you will come to get her as fast as you can, no questions asked until she is safe in your car. When she's with you you can figure out the truth about the situation.

This is what my parents did and I love them for it. They said, "Call us no matter what, no matter where you are or what you did and we will come to pick you up no questions asked that night, but you might have hell to pay in the morning."

Let her know that she will get home safe.
posted by Science! at 4:54 PM on March 7, 2009

Your niece needs to behave responsibly. If she's not home at 8, I would tell her she can't go over to the boy's house for a little while. Then she can tell him, "When you make me late going home, I can't see you." She's got to speak up for herself.

On the other hand, I'd also talk to his parents, and say you're uncomfortable with the boy's relationship with your niece. If they don't make him back off, then you're entitled to ask the school to tell him to keep away.
posted by musofire at 4:59 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

ThePinkSuperhero is absolutely correct - as usual. It's a really great skill for a girl to have, the ability to tell a guy when to back off, and it will almost certainly serve her well in the future if she learns it now.
posted by koeselitz at 4:59 PM on March 7, 2009

You can work together with the girl to set protective boundaries as a family. Frankly, while it is important that she learn to set boundaries, it is at this stage in her development even more important that she know she can rely on you to protect her and take care of her, even in awkward and difficult situations.

He calls her six times a day? Monitor and limit the calls. When he calls, you should answer and make it clear to him he is limited to one call a day.

She comes home late because he's hidden her phone? Unfortunately he will be unable to see her this weekend as she is grounded (find something fun to do as a family.)

You can't champion her in all situations - the bus seems to be an environment you can't really control - but you can step it up in other situations to make sure she has the space she needs. Yes, this approach will require some work from you and will make you out to be the Evil Parent in the eyes of the boy, but as you know, it isn't necessary for this boy to like you. It is however necessary for your niece to be able to rely on you.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:10 PM on March 7, 2009 [2 favorites]

Does she know that she can use you as the bad guy? Let her know that she can say "My guardian won't let me go out with you tonight because I came in late last night" or "My guardian wants me to stay home to do the dishes" or "My guardian wants me to be offline", or whatever. Guardians are a great excuse for kids to use to get out of something they're uncomfortable with.

Also give her a secret out: One - I'm not sure if rule is the right word, I'll go with - policy my parents had was that when I called to check in I could say "I'm having a swell time!" if I wanted to stay ("s" for "swell" and "stay") and "I'm having a good time" ("g" for "good" and "go") if I wanted to go, and at any point in a conversation I could say "Aw Mom/Dad, I don't want to leave. Alright, I'll be outside waiting for you in 20 minutes." and they would be on their way to pick me up, no questions asked.

I never had to use that one, but maybe some sort of security blanket along those lines could be useful for your charge.
posted by cCranium at 5:15 PM on March 7, 2009 [28 favorites]

The girl should handle the interaction as much as she's capable of ...

No, I really think parilous should take a more proactive approach in stopping this situation. The boy is obviously very manipulative and controlling, and I think parilous should take charge and get him out of the girl's life. First by asking that the bus seats be reassigned, second by not letting the girl see him anymore.

Some of the worst interpersonal situations of my childhood were ones I was left to sort out myself. Abusive, manipulative behavior toward a grade-school child is not something the child should be expected to solve, even with the parent's help.
posted by jayder at 5:40 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

Yes, TPS is right in that your niece needs to learn how to stand up for herself as soon as she can - whether it is against this kid, or a bullying adult, or whomever she will face in her life. But at the same time, she needs to know that you have her back and will always support her. Don't make her feel like she's out there floundering and that you expect her to take care of this on her own.

If one of my daughters were in this situation, damn straight I'd be on the phone with this kid's parents about his recent actions and suspect behaviour. Especially about him hiding her property or him intentionally delaying your niece's departure from his home. That is not cool. Now, whether she is being honest with you about it or is adding some drama, you need to be the judge of that. But if this 12yo is trying to monopolize a 6th grader's time, and has already succeeded in negotiating his desire to manipulate the situation (e.g., the bus seat assignment) and has exemplified to *you* that he doesn't respect your wishes when you've spoken to him directly, I think that you really need to discuss the option of cutting this relationship off with your niece.

From your previous posts about your niece (and, incidentally, I'm so glad that your relationship has seemed to blossom and do well!), I'm not so sure that she ever really had the proper groundwork for relationships with male friends ever laid by her biological mother. Your niece may simply not understand that as she's getting into the whole adolescent thing with boys, the rules are about to change; or maybe she does and just isn't emotionally equipped to deal with it. Especially if she's hanging with boys that are older.

I think that the two of you have some work cut out for yourselves. But I applaud you for being so involved in her life and kicking ass as a quasi-mom. From here, you're doing a great job. Keep providing gentle guidance and she will find her way -- you both will.
posted by dancinglamb at 5:41 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

If she's tried to set boundaries and he hasn't respected them, she ought to take the next logical step and show him what happens when a "friend" disrespects her boundaries: she doesn't go to his house, he can't come over to hers, she's not interested in talking to him on the bus--whatever it is that he wants from her, he doesn't get if he won't respect her boundaries.
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:46 PM on March 7, 2009 [4 favorites]

(Honestly, that's what boundaries are--you set them, and people either respect them or you leave.)
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:48 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

parilous, it might also behoove you to give the guidance counselor or principal at your niece's school a heads up on this situation so that they might monitor it from there. S/he could possibly offer you a different perspective on what's going on in school on a daily basis or at least be your eyes and ears. My daughter is somewhat younger but when we were having some bus issues, the school most definitely wanted to be involved and was quite instrumental in resolving the issue.
posted by dancinglamb at 5:49 PM on March 7, 2009 [2 favorites]

parilous, can you clarify the kids' ages? I think I may have pulled them from that old thread that PhoB linked and they're off by a year or two.
posted by dancinglamb at 5:54 PM on March 7, 2009

Yes, it would be best if she handled it, with advice from you, but him preventing her from getting home on time is a worrying sign. He's getting out of hand and I'm thinking it's at the point where parents need to step in. Seriously, he's actively preventing her from getting home on time, that's not acceptable with an adult, it's totally out of bounds with a child. This sort of behavior will only escalate if not nipped in the bud, because no one is showing him that something is wrong with it. This was serious issue the first time it happened, now it's a situation.

Talk to his parents and see where they are with this. They may not be aware of things or may not care. Either way, you yourself need to be aware of where their heads are about this, so you'll know if they're going to be a help or hinderance. If they're a help, great, they can talk to him. Most decent parents are totally ok with another parent calling out their kid for bad behavior and then letting them know about it, so definitely talk to them. If they don't think it's a problem, then the ball is in your court to do what you can.

For instance, you've laid down the rules with him, but have you laid down the consequences? Telling him that she'll get in trouble doesn't really matter to him, you know? In the situation that you describe about him making her late, I'd break it down to him and her point blank: "She's supposed to be home at X time. She is not and this seems to be a problem when you two hang out. Therefore, you will not be coming over here for X amount of time, nor will she going over your house for X amount of time, is that clear? Every time this happens, the consequence will be that you can't two won't be spending much time together."

It's nice that you want to help him, but he is not your responsibility. That doesn't mean you can't help him, but your first concern should be the girl. Speaking as adult male who raised a girl, the boy sounds like he has issues and you need to be aware of that and monitoring the situation.

As to your specific questions:
We've already had the talk to the boy directly about how the girl was too young to have a boyfriend

What? You don't to him, you tell him and let him know whatever situation he has at home, whatever shit he can get away with there, you're not having at and you're not to be trifled with. It's perfectly fine if you're known at the strict parent, that gives her an out in this and future situations. At this age you should be strict, IMO, and gradually let up as they get older. It's much answer to lay down the law now and have them use to following it as opposed to being loose with rules and then trying to impose them, it just doesn't work. Part of parenting is setting guidelines and boundaries.

Talk to the bus driver about switching seats?

Talk to the girl first and see how she feels about it, then go from there. If she wants to switch seats, let her know she can, at any point and you'll back up her decision, including going with her to talk to the bus driver. Just remember it's an either/or situation. Either she sits next to him all the time or she never sits next to him, she can't change her mind everyday.

Or should the girl talk to the boy herself? (They are both in middle school; he's 1.5 years old than her.) What should she say?

What's the little girl like, what's her personality, where is she in her mental and emotional development?

Yes, it would be good if the girl could handle this herself, with advice from you, but in order to do that you need to understand who she is and what's the best way for her to deal with. Telling her to be firm, but polite is fine, but does she know how to do that? Does she know what to do when that doesn't work? Is she a If not, you need to teach her. Does she have a concept of her personal self and space? If not, you need to teach her, etc, etc.

She should be as simple as her deciding for herself what she wants to do. Does she want to play with him? Ok, go play with him. Does she want to go home? Ok, she can go home. She needs to know and understand that she can set limits and that you will back her up on those limits.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:59 PM on March 7, 2009 [3 favorites]

"The boy is obviously very manipulative and controlling"

We should keep in mind that the story relayed by the little girl who was scared because she was late might not be 100% true before we brand the little boy as some kind of heinous beast.

I mean, really, does she need her cell phone to walk home? He's not responsible for her following the rules, she is.
posted by toomuchpete at 6:09 PM on March 7, 2009

Socially awkward adolescent boy, hyperactive, trustworthy, but with no hobbies, befriends cute adolescent girl.

Um...

I've personally laid down rules with the boy only to have him try to ignore or defy them. "She needs to be home at 8" means that she's walking in the house after 8:30 with a look of panic because he'd hidden her cell phone or done something else to delay her leaving.

That doesn't sound trustworthy to me, unless your charge is lying to you.

I don't have any brilliant ideas. I think the suggestions to coach the girl sound great. You could give her the option of telling the boy "my guardian says I can't see you after school any more" if she needs that tool. It certainly sounds like he's already given you reasons to do so, which, of course, isn't likely to end well, unless the girl is in on it.
posted by Good Brain at 6:17 PM on March 7, 2009

I mean, really, does she need her cell phone to walk home?

Based on the OP's previous questions, the kid has had a traumatic life and was given the cellphone as a security blanket and it's a common device for kids to have these days. And yeah, she's responsible for being home on time, but if the boy is preventing her from doing that, then you can't can't blame her. Also note the OP implies that he's hidden her phone and done other things to prevent her from leaving and that's totally unacceptable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:24 PM on March 7, 2009

dancinglamb: He's 14; she's 12. (They're 1.5 years apart.)

With regards to my update -- I misspoke. I shouldn't have said "only to have him ignore/defy them". She is usually on time (or within about 15 minutes), but when she is late, it's because he's done something to keep her late. We've already addressed this with her ("Just leave your phone. We'll go over with you and say that you forgot it.") and will continue to hold her responsible for getting home on time.

I don't think that all contact should be cut off with the boy. He's a decent enough kid -- he's just really socially awkward, hyper, and generally used to getting his way. I'm sure he's not a danger to her! I think he's a loner who found someone that's willing to put up with him and, barring any other hobby or outlet for his need for attention, has latched onto her.

I just don't know about how to go about talking to him (and/or his parents) about the girl's growing frustration and resentment. I don't want to go into a conversation with him where I'm talking about the girl's feelings (i.e., putting the blame on her). As mentioned, one way to do this is to play the villain (which I've done before) and saying something like, "It seems like you guys are getting to be close friends and I'm not comfortable with that at her age".

And I also don't know if it's a conversation I should have with his parents or just him. I'm leaning towards both because when I talked to just him about the boyfriend thing, I thought that was settled, but the gifts started up again, and he's literally filled up her voicemail with messages.

Talking to the guidance counselor at school is a fantastic idea. I will definitely do that.

We had a previous code phrase for when she needed to leave a situation. I've altered it slightly to use "awesome" for "stay" and "good" for "go". Thanks for the idea, cCranium.

There are many excellent suggestions here, and while I agree with so many others that the girl needs to be the one to set -- and enforce -- her own boundaries, I worried that it was a lot to handle for a 12-year old. (Admittedly, my views of what a 12-year old can handle are probably colored by nostalgia.) I'm reassured that so many believe she can handle it and think it will be reassuring to anyone happening upon this thread.
posted by parilous at 7:06 PM on March 7, 2009

The girl and I took a ride and talked a lot about what she would like to see happen in this situation. The relief that was apparent on her face and in her voice when I asked if she wanted me to talk to the boy and his parents made the answer obvious.

I have to get involved. She needs the support. She feels that he doesn't listen to her.

She will remain in the same seating arrangement, but she has been instructed to tell the boy when he is being inconsiderate/rude by saying, "You're not being a good friend right now." She wanted me to talk to his parents tonight (!), but I'm going to go over during the week.

Thanks again, everyone.
posted by parilous at 7:16 PM on March 7, 2009 [3 favorites]

parilous, is it possible that this kid has Asperger's? My older daughter is very good friends with a boy who has been diagnosed with it and reading this, I immediately thought of his some of his behaviours I've witnessed. I can absolutely see him doing this sort of thing.

I know that I am dreading my girls growing up and having to deal with all sorts of boy drama one day. The thought of them being 12 scares the ever living shit out of me. But as I said, you're doing an awesome job. Keep it up. It sounds like your niece has a good head on her shoulders and you guys will come find an optimal solution to this situation. But please do keep us posted. Good luck!
posted by dancinglamb at 7:19 PM on March 7, 2009 [1 favorite]

Just remember it's an either/or situation. Either she sits next to him all the time or she never sits next to him, she can't change her mind everyday.

Am I misunderstanding this? Why should this be the case? If they/he/she want to sit together on Tuesday, that doesn't mean either one of them must sit together on Wednesday. Maybe she does enjoy a long conversion one day; by having it, she does not obligate herself to a rigid schedule where she has to sit with him whether she wants to or not. Same goes for him.
posted by peep at 7:19 PM on March 7, 2009

Dancinglamb: Very possibly. He doesn't seem to be aware that he's interrupting conversations to blurt out something about the scenery or that him talking about a scene in a video game that he played last night is not the least bit interesting to anyone who wasn't playing the game. I took him to a sporting event and he looked about ready to jump out of his skin for the only 20 minutes we were there. He never looked up from his book to even watch the game. I don't know if it was the crowds or the noise that got to him, though.

Peep: because they're assigned seats. She can't keep switching her seat assignment.
posted by parilous at 7:33 PM on March 7, 2009

ETA: The boy specifically worked out a special arrangement with the bus driver so the girl could be next to him. Luckily, it's right behind the bus driver and the girl feels comfortable with telling the bus driver that she wants to move (if it gets to that point -- she has a couple of new strategies now).
posted by parilous at 7:35 PM on March 7, 2009

Why should this be the case?

According to the OP they have assigned seats on the bus.

She will remain in the same seating arrangement, but she has been instructed to tell the boy when he is being inconsiderate/rude by saying, "You're not being a good friend right now."

If he isn't listening to her now, he probably won't listen to her then. Also, the phrasing gives all the power to him, when it's really her power and invites a continuing conversation (How am I not being a good friend?) She could say "I don't feel like talking now" or "I'm thinking about something, could you be quiet please?" It's her personal space and she has total control over it. If she wants to shut him down, she should feel comfortable in doing so.

She wanted me to talk to his parents tonight (!), but I'm going to go over during the week.

If she's as anxious as you say, doing it ASAP might be better.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:36 PM on March 7, 2009

He's a decent enough kid -- he's just really socially awkward, hyper, and generally used to getting his way. I'm sure he's not a danger to her! I think he's a loner who found someone that's willing to put up with him ...

... and he's trying to cut her off from other, normal social opportunities, you have said. That's a HUGE problem.

I think you should regard his isolation of her, and his controlling/manipulation, as a bigger problem than you seem to think it is.

If he keeps getting the latitude he is getting, the girl could end up being a maladjusted misfit like him.
posted by jayder at 8:18 PM on March 7, 2009

One way to talk about his with the boy and his family is in terms of respect - that he needs to respect your girl and listen to her when she says she needs needs to go home or needs time for herself without him.

You can have rules that you, as the grown-up set (like no gifts, no phone calls after 8pm no boyfriend behavior etc.) that you will enforce - if he gives her gifts, she has to give them back. If he calls after curfew, she can't take the call and so on.

The second part is the peer relationship. If he isn't respecting her, she should call him on it - that's where she can use the "you are not being a good friend to me", followed by spending less time with him. You can help her with this - work out what to do and say, maybe practice with you and talk about how things went. You can also talk to his family and let them know that he is having a hard time getting the message. The hope is that they can help coach him so when she talks to him, he be more aware of how he can respond more appropriately.
posted by metahawk at 9:39 PM on March 7, 2009

Jayder, your thoughts are especially appreciated. I'm not ready to cut off their contact just yet because he's a convenient friend to have (he lives close by; her other friends are 8-10 miles away).

I just want to limit their contact for the next few weeks and see how that goes. If it seems like he can't stand to be pulled away from her, then what you're saying is completely accurate and your advice will be my next steps.
posted by parilous at 8:09 AM on March 8, 2009

I was going to chime in to say you can't let her handle this, she IS ASKING YOU FOR HELP! Your update saying that the "relief is apparent" that you're going to step in is both good and worrying--this kid is really stressing her out and she CAN'T handle it by herself. It's great to help her develop boundaries, but this is a kid who can't/won't hear boundaries so HE needs to be punished, not her, by not allowing them to spend time together or talk on the phone when he does something like make her late. And his parents and the school guidance counselor definitely need to be aware of what's going on. He's 14, yeah, he's emotionally immature but even with Asperger's (my brother has it) he can start to understand consequences especially when they're consistent.

Someone else upthread said that this is the age to be strict and ease up as they get older. That is dead on.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 9:12 AM on March 8, 2009

One thing I'm not understanding here -- does she still want to be his friend? I know that you think he's sweet and harmless and trustworthy and "convenient," but in an ideal world, would she like to cut him out completely?

I've had a lot of friends like this boy. People who love to cross boundaries seem to be able to sniff out those of us who have trouble setting, trusting, and enforcing our own boundaries. I was always afraid of getting into a situation that I didn't know how to handle. For example, on the bus, "I don't feel like talking today." Obviously it wouldn't end at that, especially with someone really socially-awkward and manipulative like this boy -- it would escalate and there would be a back and forth, and I was afraid that I shouldn't be able to handle that, shouldn't know what to say to continue enforcing my boundary.

In your niece's situation, it looks like he is more skillful at breaking her boundaries than she is at setting/enforcing them. This needs to change ASAP, or else this boy will only be the first in a very long line of such "friends."

Try role-playing with her, with you playing your niece and she the boy. Ask her for a situation in which he did something that she didn't like. She'll say things that he says or that she's afraid he'll say, and you can be the voice of reason:

"I want to go home, and if we can't find my phone I'll just have to leave without it."
"I don't feel like talking on the phone right now."
"I have to do my homework/I'm not allowed to talk on the phone on school nights anymore."
"Thank you for asking, but I don't want to play today... No, sorry, I just don't feel like it. Have a good night, bye."
(I found the book When I Say No, I Feel Guilty pretty good for this.)

Let's say, however, that she doesn't want to cut him off completely. It sounds like you (and maybe she) like him when he's being nice/normal, when he's being a good friend, and just wish he could be like that all the time or that you could restrict their time together to those occasions. Well, that's pretty unlikely. If, when you set a boundary (no gifts), he obeys for a little while and then goes back to his old ways, that makes it pretty clear that you and your niece are not going to be able to significantly modify his behavior or change who he is. This is a job for his parents and psychological assistance.

Also, about this boy being a convenient friend -- make it more convenient for her to see her other friends, even if they live farther away. Make it clear that you're willing to drive her, set up play-dates, sleepovers, and movies out, so that she doesn't feel trapped with this boy as her only friend.
posted by thebazilist at 11:28 AM on March 8, 2009 [6 favorites]

The girl is 12. 12. There is *no* reason for her to have to navigate such an evidently stressful relationship in order to salvage a partial friendship with this boy. Just end the relationship, period. Also, remember that he is two years older. That's like a decade to adults. I'm afraid you're being wilfully blind to the real possibilities of this boy doing some harm to her
posted by footnote at 7:42 PM on March 8, 2009 [3 favorites]

A final update: She likes him and wants to be friends with him. She is just frustrated by him sometimes. I needed advice about whether to talk to the boy or to his parents and I've decided to do both.

From his perspective, he probably isn't even aware that he's behaving inappropriately. I really think he's a social misfit who hasn't had much experience with being around a girl. I'll talk to him and give him an opportunity to change (i.e., abiding by girl's requests and limiting his contact), under threat of ending their friendship. If he still doesn't change, then I will end it (convenience be damned).

From his parents' perspective, they probably think their slightly strange, solitary son has finally found a girlfriend -- I need to set them straight.

This parenting thing is totally new to me. No wonder my parents seemed to be so inconsistent and alien when I was a teen!
posted by parilous at 11:29 AM on March 9, 2009

Also, about this boy being a convenient friend -- make it more convenient for her to see her other friends, even if they live farther away. Make it clear that you're willing to drive her, set up play-dates, sleepovers, and movies out, so that she doesn't feel trapped with this boy as her only friend.

You've gotten tons of good advice, but I just wanted to stress this because when you mentioned the convenience factor it jumped out at me too: growing up I was always under the impression, partly due to my parents' attitude, that my friendships were fated things I had to accept and work with based on this "convenience" element and not whether people were actually interesting to me or fun to be with or made me feel good about myself, etc. Looking back that was pretty toxic for my self esteem, sense of independence and agency, and ability to have decent relationships once I was on my own--I kept thinking relationships, romantic and platonic, were something where you stumble on someone, you HAVE to be there for them and their friend if they act interested because hey, they're what came to you, and then you inevitably, traumatically deal with the mess and horror of trying to accommodate people you don't fit with. It took me a long time to realize I could seek out and choose my friends, and cut contact with people who made my life miserable or complicated. This has been one of the greatest epiphanies of my adulthood, and I am much saner and happier for it.

Convenience is nothing socially if who's "convenient" is torturous to be around and begins eroding your sense of self. Be careful how much you weigh that.
posted by ifjuly at 1:47 PM on March 9, 2009 [2 favorites]

Sorry, a clarification about the "convenience" factor. I grew up in a small town with one high school. The town was about 3 miles wide and I was able to be friends with anyone in town because I could bike there. I was not friends with the kid across the street or next door, but I was really close friends with the girl who lived on the edge of town, directly opposite me. I used to ride my bike to her house (until we were old enough to drive).

That is absolutely impossible where we live now. Thanks to annexation and need for a tax base, our town is HUGE. There are only two middle schools serving an area of over 500 square miles. There is no mass transit servicing our area. There are two major roads with a 45/50mph speed limit that are dangerous for a kid to ride a bike on.

I actively encourage her to make plans to spend the afternoon or have sleepovers -- but it's not something that can necessarily be done without some planning. All I ask is that we stay at the destination longer than it takes to get there and that I have a lead time of 2 hours before we leave. But she's just not a planner. Without anything being planned, it's not likely she's going to see her friends on the weekend. It's just how it works out.

That said, I agree with the advice given and will make sure she's aware of any opportunities to hang with her other friends.
posted by parilous at 9:19 AM on March 10, 2009

But she's just not a planner. Without anything being planned, it's not likely she's going to see her friends on the weekend. It's just how it works out.

Maybe you can help get her into the habit of making weekend plans... for example, maybe on Wed. or Thurs. at breakfast, you bring up the question as to whether she'd like to see a movie with Annie this weekend, or reciprocate Jenny's sleepover, or whatever. So this plants the seed for her to go to school and initiate the planning process. It also gives enough lead time that you can follow up with her that evening, or even the next morning, so that she's got another chance to make plans if she happened to forget the first time around.

So by the time Friday afternoon rolls around, she's had a couple of opportunities to make something happen... and she also has had ample warning that if she doesn't make those plans ahead of time, then she can't rely on you being able to accomodate any last-minute plans over the weekend.

Also, just wanted to chime in to agree that it's fantastic that you've stepped in to be such a loving, thoughtful guardian for your niece. Good luck, and keep up the amazing work!
posted by scody at 1:23 PM on March 10, 2009 [1 favorite]