Bad Marriage Help Wanted

March 4, 2009 9:15 PM

Major, probably unalterable aspects of my husband's personality drive me and others away. What to do?

I've thought about writing this in a variety of different ways, discussing it terms of potential mental illness and childhood trauma, but it occurred to me that whether he is mentally ill or just a jackass is relatively unimportant for the purposes of figuring out what I should do in the situation.

My husband has no offline friends. He would be nearly unemployable, but manages to avoid getting fired for his hideous behavior by being extremely valuable to his employers. His career has definitely been affected by his issues, however. He has the most tenuous of relations with his family of origin. He has been divorced, and it was very ugly.

He takes no responsibility for any of this. None, zero, zippo. It's all other people's fault.

I am coming to accept that the light is never going to turn on for him, or at least it isn't likely. What is likely, unfortunately, is that with age he is going to get more negative, more combative, more unpleasant, more of the unlikable person who makes people literally walk away from him in midconversation. He appears to lack the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life.

There are four children. Divorce or separation will be devastating for them. While they are adversely affected by living in this situation, I am not confident in my ability to single parent in a way that will not be significantly worse for them.

I am pretty sure that staying is the right thing to do, for now. He has good qualities, or I wouldn't have married him. I work on focusing on those, a lot. But how do I deal with the fact that the bad stuff is probably never going to change? How do I make it more tolerable? How do I ensure the children do not think his behavior is normal? How do I counteract the social isolation caused by his driving people away? How do I deal with the resentment that it's all on me to make it all happen?

And if anyone in the same boat would post and tell me how you swing it, particularly 1) how you make friends and manage a social life when your spouse is spectacularly unlikable, 2) how you deal with the horrible loneliness when your spouse is not a friend or even a kind person, I would be really appreciative.

posted by daisydaisy to human relations (74 answers total)

Divorce or separation will be devastating for them.

How can you be sure of that? You admit that the living situation adversely affects them, so surely it's stressful for them.

Honestly, I've met more people that wished their parents had gotten divorced than people who regretted their parents getting divorced. I wished constantly for mine to get divorced, my husband was relieved when his did -- and he was only 11 or so. Most of my friends were happy their parents got divorced or wished they did. Maybe this is unusual, but are you just making the assumption that divorce would be terrible for them or do you have some sort of evidence?

If your kids are very young and you think they wouldn't understand, I think you should get divorced anyway. I remember when I was very young, maybe four, after one particularly terrible argument my mom was in tears and said maybe she would have to leave my dad. I was four, and didn't know what the hell I was talking about, so I said, "No!" I'm always going to regret that, and the only thing that makes it not quite so bad is that it's more my mom's fault for letting the feelings of a four year old override all reason. It kept me in a very bad environment for the rest of my childhood. Please be willing to do the right thing for your children, even if they don't understand it's the right thing for them at the time, even if it's hard for you. That's what parents do.

I still loved my dad. That was all the more reason I wanted them to get divorced; so the house wouldn't be on one constant negative frequency. It makes my stomach churn just to remember that feeling.

I also think it's a bad example of marriage to set for your children. I'm not sure if you've thought about it this way, but I've noticed that with me and my friends whose parents had bad relationships, you get this subconscious idea that putting up with stupid crap is a sign of love, and that if you reaaally love someone, they can do some pretty horrible things to you and you won't leave them. Is that something you want in the backs of their heads? :-/ This has been very damaging for all of the people I have in mind. I was fortunate to get over it when I did.

If you don't want your kids to get the impression that drama is normal, and that they should stay in terrible relationships that have no hope of changing, then you need to divorce. It sounds like you would be a lot happier too.
posted by Nattie at 9:37 PM on March 4, 2009 [16 favorites]

I'm sure your children can see how unhappy this makes you. It probably makes them miserable as well. They would probably have a better life with one normal parent than with one fucked up one and one miserable one.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:37 PM on March 4, 2009

Divorce or separation will be devastating for them. While they are adversely affected by living in this situation, I am not confident in my ability to single parent in a way that will not be significantly worse for them.

A bad father is not better than no father. Unhappy parents are not better than divorced parents. What's the saying, little pitchers have big ears? Children are not stupid just because they're small. They'll understand what's going on sooner than you think, and it's going to affect them for the rest of their lives. As you go forward in this journey, make sure you are making their need to grow up in a healthy living environment a priority.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:38 PM on March 4, 2009 [5 favorites]

There are specific reasons divorce at this point, and for about five years, would be devastating. It's an option in the future but it isn't now.
posted by daisydaisy at 9:41 PM on March 4, 2009

This is all too cryptic for anyone to even begin to help and even then it sounds like the two of you need some counseling by professionals. Hate to just throw out the old stand-by but strangers on the internet aren't going to be much use to you in this context. Go see a therapist.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 9:52 PM on March 4, 2009 [4 favorites]

It's always an option. The universe won't explode if you leave him tomorrow. It might be really hard, but I bet it won't be harder than the life you're living now.

You only get the one life, you know. How old are you? Let's say you're 34. You will NEVER BE 34 AGAIN. If you wait five years, you're 39. So 35, 36, 37, 38, 39... five wasted years of your precious, finite, irreplaceable life. By saying you CANNOT leave him for five years, you have just thrown those years down the drain. Just think, by 37 you could be over him and happy and with a whole new life. Or you could still be in this same situation.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:00 PM on March 4, 2009 [13 favorites]

It sounds like you could benefit from joining a support group. I believe that the recovery process found in Al Anon could be of help to you in dealing with your husband's self-and-otherwise-destructive behavior.

But I'll also add my voice to the chorus that says that divorce for the children of an unhappy marriage is not devastating. If it would be devastating to you, that's fine, but you need to accept that rather than to project those feelings onto your children. As a child of an unhappy marriage - which only finally dissolved now that I am 26 and living on my own across the country - I can fully attest to what people have said. I was devastated by growing up with married parents.
posted by greekphilosophy at 10:01 PM on March 4, 2009

I'll field this question, isolated:

How do I ensure the children do not think his behavior is normal?

You do it the same way everyone responds to unacceptable behaviour, which is by not putting up with it.
If divorce or separation are out of the question—and there's not a lot of detail here about why that's so—you need to find another way of making it clear to your children that you do not accept your husband's behaviour. I'm not sure how that can be done with the details that you've given.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:02 PM on March 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

How about an intervention? Gather some people he respects, and each tell him how is behavior is affecting the relationship. Maybe a confrontation like this would open his eyes. Possibly a good therapist (as otherworldlyglow suggests) can help put this together.
posted by artdrectr at 10:03 PM on March 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Have you considered that he may be somewhere on the Asperger half of the spectrum? Your description sounds fairly similar to me. Unfortunately, there is no "cure" for Asperger syndrome (not everyone agrees that it's a single condition). But I think it could give you some comfort and a foothold to deal with your husband's behavior if you could classify it and understand it as a disorder shared by many other people. I could be way off the mark though - I am speaking strictly as an amateur anonymous internet armchair psychologist with some personal experience with people with Asperger's syndrome.

One common aspect of people with Aspergers is difficulty in reading social cues from other people, resulting in behavior that can seem uncomfortable, rude, or inconsiderate to others but seems normal to one with Asperger's. The syndrome also sometimes manifests itself in a strong sense of self, and a weak sense of others, or simply a lack of empathy for others, which can result in apparently self-centered behavior or conversation.

You might want to check out the information on this support website or wikipedia's Diagnosis of Asperger syndrome.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 10:06 PM on March 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

My childhood would have been so much better had my parents divorce before I was in my 20s - or better yet, both would have had better lives had they never gotten married or simply divorced before having me.

Anyways... you don't really give any examples of anything in your question, so it's quite difficult to respond helpfully. What you perceive as negativity or jackassery may be a matter of perception; we can't know because we don't have anything to go on.

So, nthing therapy. And reiterating that kids are very, very affected by the state of a marriage. Often in ways you can't understand.
posted by sadiehawkinstein at 10:11 PM on March 4, 2009

If you are sure that divorce is not an option for the time being then I would strongly suggest family counseling...(even if it's just you and the kids)

He has good qualities, or I wouldn't have married him. I work on focusing on those, a lot. But how do I deal with the fact that the bad stuff is probably never going to change? How do I make it more tolerable? How do I ensure the children do not think his behavior is normal? How do I counteract the social isolation caused by his driving people away? How do I deal with the resentment that it's all on me to make it all happen?

A family counselor will be able to help you with the questions stated above over the time you must be there... 5 years will be no walk in the park, a professional will be able to help you find the coping skills you'll need.... Or to come to terms with a very difficult decision.

I suggest counseling because sometimes good advise isn't enough.. no one knows your situation the way you do and an unbiased professional with all the facts can be invaluable.
posted by Weaslegirl at 10:14 PM on March 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

daisydaisy: I am coming to accept that the light is never going to turn on for him, or at least it isn't likely. What is likely, unfortunately, is that with age he is going to get more negative, more combative, more unpleasant, more of the unlikable person who makes people literally walk away from him in midconversation. He appears to lack the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life.

Psychotherapy? This is what it's for. You don't know whether he will ever change; my experience is that spouses are often the least qualified people to tell if their partner will change, especially when that partner has gotten themselves into a real pickle like this one.

I've thought about writing this in a variety of different ways, discussing it terms of potential mental illness and childhood trauma, but it occurred to me that whether he is mentally ill or just a jackass is relatively unimportant for the purposes of figuring out what I should do in the situation.

You have to know that it occurred to you wrong. It sounds like this is a character trait, but character traits can be modified to make them livable with some work. What's more, you should ponder this: there is no difference between a jackass or someone who's mentally ill.

A psychotherapist will be able to tell you:

(a) Whether he can fix himself to the point where life is worthwhile again.

(b) How to go about finding another solution if he can't.

(c) What to do about other difficulties - like the family situation, say.

But, jeez, why am I saying all of this? Have you even talked to your husband about this? That's the procedure - you know this, right? -

(1) Say, "Husband, you act like a jackass a lot of the time, and it grates on me to the point where it threatens our marriage." Explain what you mean. Sure, it's tough to say - but that's marriage for you. The tough part for you, I think, will be listening to what he has to say and deciding if he's listening to you - I have a feeling you'll just assume he's not at this point. Even so, this step is crucial because in order to live happily in the world we're required to treat others with dignity and respect, and that means telling them to their faces when they're acting like jackasses.

(2) If (as you seem to believe is inevitable) he blows this off and will hear none of it, then you say: "fine then, I'm fucking leaving unless you go through psychotherapy with me." If he still scoffs at that, then start packing. There's not much else you can do. You've already all but left, so I don't see what harm it'll do; if even this won't work, well, move to the other side of the house and stop spending time at home.

All of this will be hard on you because it includes the tough part where you have to listen to him and his concerns and be willing to help him become a better person.
posted by koeselitz at 10:15 PM on March 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

daisydaisy: My husband has no offline friends.

Ah. So this is a note to him, perchance?

If so, I don't think that will work well, by the way. You should talk to him more directly.
posted by koeselitz at 10:17 PM on March 4, 2009

I'll just say, I spent about four minutes sitting here trying to answer your actual questions, each in turn, and I couldn't do it. Brainstorming is one of my stronger skills, and all the answers I could think of involved resigning hope, putting up walls, and finding what happiness you can around the edges or throwing yourself inappropriately into something as a way of denying what you really want. So, although it felt disrespectful to your carefully worded question, I too wanted to suggest that you consider the idea that as a single parent, you might find resources (internal or external) that you weren't expecting.

My strongest advice for you: get a therapist to help you think all this through.
posted by salvia at 10:23 PM on March 4, 2009 [6 favorites]

People can undergo radical personality shifts, but only with hard work and sufficient motivation. Most people are only motivated to do so by pain and/or fear.

Let him know what's at stake.
posted by availablelight at 10:29 PM on March 4, 2009

For you, maybe: Al Anon; hobbies with related social activities (book club, knitting group); gym; your "own room" or office; focus on friends that won't require your husband's presence (work friends, hobby friends).

For your kids: I think you're speaking up occasionally, calmly, stating your own views on the behavior. Listening to them as well re their views on whether the family should stay together.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:33 PM on March 4, 2009 [1 favorite]

Please believe me when I say I don't mean this snarkily BUT...

... your question could almost be worded as...

"There's nothing you can do to help me. Please help"

or even

"What is 2+2, when it isn't 4?"

It sounds like divprce is the worst of all possible outcomes, except all the others.

My parents were divorced when I was 11. It affected me very deeply indeed so I'm not minimizing it. But most of the effects were effect not of the divorce but of the way my parents treated each other (and by extension me). I understood very quickly that people want different things and can do so without blame attaching. i did not understand why my father removed all the furniture from the house one day while I was at school. YMMV.
posted by unSane at 10:34 PM on March 4, 2009 [10 favorites]

Yes, I have talked to him about it, and we've been to counselling. He does not think he has any problems of his own, he thinks his behaviors are legitimate responses to stress.

And no, this isn't a note to him. He is incapable of reading something like this and thinking it applies to him. He doesn't read metafilter, anyway.

OK everyone who thinks I should leave: It can't happen quickly. You can't just pack and go when you have four children, and even the best of friends and most supportive of relations would have a hard time fitting us into their apartments. Stability and predictability is extremely important for children; if I'm going to leave him it has to be in a way that minimizes disruption for them. I can't couchsurf. I have to leave from here into a stable situation that isn't certain to change again.

So while I figure out what that is, helpful advice on the current situation would be nice.

And I'm really curious what you people who think it's dead obvious that I should leave think co-parenting with this man after a divorce is going to be like. He has as much right to the children as I do. Courts do not take away parental rights on the grounds of "he's a jerk and has no friends."
posted by daisydaisy at 10:39 PM on March 4, 2009

unSane: when all the children are 11 or older, divorce would be a more sensible option.
posted by daisydaisy at 10:40 PM on March 4, 2009

I'm specifying these 3 books because they're the only ones on these topics that I've read so far, but I'm sure others in the same general topics would be helpful:

Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life

Codependent No More

Adult Children of Alcoholics

A friend recommended Toxic Parents to me yesterday when discussing the effect that our bloody awful fathers had on our lives. And are still having, in the sense that we are still recognizing and coming to grips with behavioural patterns that originated as childhood coping mechanisms to deal with dysfunctional family environments, but now that we're adults, the patterns can persist and themselves create dysfunction. Iin fact, they persist irresistibly, without serious introspection and ongoing reconstructive work on ourselves, and support from each other and others on similar explorations.

I mention Codependent No More only because it illuminated for me why certain people in my life continue to behave in such mindbogglingly self-destructive ways. No idea if it would apply to your spouse, but I'm just throwing it out there. Oh, and also because people in intimate relationships with self-destructive people compensate by adjusting their own behaviour, in ways that may help in the short term but harm in the long-term; you may be doing this without realizing it, and kids learn how to behave by watching their parents, so reading this or other books on codependence might be useful for recognizing emotionally unhealthy behaviour in yourself, or in your kids as they grow up.

Woititz's Adult Children of Alcoholics is absolutely worth looking at, even if the dysfunction has nothing to do with alcohol or other chemical dependency. It blew my mind, listening to her tick off typical traits of ACoA. I recognized about 3/4 of them in people I know, whose parents were not alcoholic, but who were physically abusive or emotionally toxic (or negligent) due to other reasons. The immediate cause of the dysfunctional behaviour is different, but the effects were strikingly similar. And the kids of these people I know, they're repeating the pattern, because that's what's familiar.

Anyway, Woititz explains how dysfunctions in parents affect the kids (blaming themselves, carrying guilt, etc) and, most importantly, how to show them (within the framework of recovering from alcoholism or a parent's alcoholism, but the general principles are what matters) what normal is and how to create normal parent-child interactions and expectations.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:40 PM on March 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

He isn't a bad father. He is a bad husband, but he is a good father with serious problems. The children love him very very very much.
posted by daisydaisy at 10:42 PM on March 4, 2009

Glad to hear he's a good father. It doesn't neutralize the effects of them witnessing him being a bad husband, though. Kids often internalize how men and women are "supposed" to behave, by watching how mothers and fathers treat each other.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:55 PM on March 4, 2009 [4 favorites]

Not to mention this

He takes no responsibility for any of this. None, zero, zippo. It's all other people's fault.


and this

He appears to lack the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life.

This, among the good points, is what he's role modelling for your kids as adult behaviour. This is a problem.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 10:59 PM on March 4, 2009 [3 favorites]

How to make it more tolerable? Be around him less. Find lots of activities you and the kids can do together away from him, outside the home:

* Spend your weekends picnicking and playing in the park.
* Get a croquet, badminton, archery, etc. set and play backyard sports.
* Get a dog and walk it together.
* Skateboard/ride bikes/roller skate around town.
* Get everybody pedometers and compete to rack up the most steps on your daily walk.
* Read to them every day at the public library till it closes.
* Get a YMCA membership and open up a whole world of crafts and sports activities.

The more time they spend learning, having fun and developing healthy social relationships, the less time they'll spend sitting around soaking up the misery and dysfunction. Even if you're flat broke, you can get used sporting goods free and dirt cheap on Craigslist... the public library doesn't cost a dime. Getting active will be great for your sanity and peace of mind too.
posted by aquafortis at 11:02 PM on March 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

And I'm really curious what you people who think it's dead obvious that I should leave think co-parenting with this man after a divorce is going to be like. He has as much right to the children as I do. Courts do not take away parental rights on the grounds of "he's a jerk and has no friends."

He isn't a bad father. He is a bad husband, but he is a good father with serious problems. The children love him very very very much.

Well? Which is it? If he isn't a bad father, but is a bad husband, then your choice is clear. What exactly is your question again?
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:04 PM on March 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

OK everyone who thinks I should leave: It can't happen quickly. You can't just pack and go when you have four children, and even the best of friends and most supportive of relations would have a hard time fitting us into their apartments.

I can't speak for whether this is possible in your situation, but it is sometimes the case that when it seems impossible to leave, there are options that make it possible.

I'd suggest that there are some misconceptions many people bring to this situation, not to say that you necessarily share these, but only to suggest other possibilities.

1) childcare expenses (food, shelter, clothing, school) remain a shared responsibility, whether or not the parents are under the same roof.

2) the economic standard of living for separated/divorced families will most likely be lower after the split, but this doesn't mean everyone's living in a hut with a dirt floor. It can mean trading down in terms of where to live. At the worst, kids still won't be starving because of WIC/food stamps.

3) if spouses have been having a tough time for a long time, their kids are not experiencing something that is stable in an entirely healthy way. Change = short-term instability, but it can lead to a much better stable point (healthier, happier parent and kids).

I wish the best of luck to you and your family.
posted by zippy at 11:10 PM on March 4, 2009 [2 favorites]

Does your husband have any motivation to please you, for its own sake? You have said he has behaviors that chase people away, but you haven't said what exactly is happening. Do you have any love left for your husband?

All kinds of things might be of help, but it is impossible to say anything more than either divorce the man, or seek professional help, without knowing more of the nature of the problem. Most any behavior can be corrected when the individual can be motivated to do so.
posted by Goofyy at 11:25 PM on March 4, 2009

1) how you make friends and manage a social life when your spouse is spectacularly unlikable

My husband grew up with this. His father thought everyone was out to get him, coworkers, employers, family of origin, in-laws, neighbours, wife's coworkers/employers/friends. Everyone. Yet he was a "good father" in the sense of "He always made sure we knew he loved us kids very very much."

I just asked him, "Look, your mom had friends, didn't she?"
"Yeah, at work. She never brought them home. Nobody came over. She tried at first, but gave up."

My partner adds: "I had and have poor social skills because of the isolation. I feel crippled, socially."

Can you arrange lots of play dates, for yourself and the kids, with other mothers and their children? Strike up conversations with them at playgrounds?
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:04 AM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

One thing I wanted to add is:

You can't really predict what will hurt your kids. Seriously, they're like those crazy-balls that you bounce and they come up at an odd angle. Some things that you thought you had really, really impressed on them the importance of, they'll totally forget when you ask them the next day, but they'll remember some off-hand remark you made when they were four.

I'm generally uncomfortable about being an internet stranger giving advice in the human relations department but I do want to briefly mention my own experiences: my mother took a good chunk of my childhood off from work, staying at home when I was 7-14 to raise me so that I wouldn't end up a latchkey kid.

Noble decision right? What a mistake. It was probably the dumbest thing she'd done in her life in a history of seemingly-mild yet life-alteringly dumb decisions where she often self-justified her own unwillingness or fear to pursue a life of her own. I think it must have been miserable and numbing for her (and my dad was an at least semi-unsupportive career dad. They are not divorced) and she ended up resenting the hell out of me, even developing some chronic stress-related physical illnesses as a result.

I swear, swear, swear to God on a stack of Satanic Bibles that had she just gone to work and left me at home with a Super NES or something, I would probably be more well-adjusted as a result. I was certainly quite isolated, as she seemed very keen on overprotecting me and keeping me around her to help soak up her adult-sized misery and carnivorous temper. Being around lots of other people probably would've normalized some of the intense effects she had on me, so I do agree with aquafortis there. And if I had ended up in some of the stereotypical troubles ascribed to leaving kids at home, you know what? I was a smart kid, so I probably would've gotten all that crap out of my system and grown out of it.

You seem like a very patient woman. I just wanted to caution you that if you ended up staying with your husband, you too may also eventually start (wrongly) blaming your kids for "keeping" you there and I wouldn't want to see that happen to either you or them. There's enough miserable people in the world without needing a bunch more added to the mix.

When your kids grow up, they'll decide/discover what affected them or didn't. You can't really control any of that. As it is, the best decision may be to think of your own happiness and well-being.

Good luck. I wish you all the best.
posted by twins named Lugubrious and Salubrious at 12:16 AM on March 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

A few ideas assuming that you are staying in your marriage for now:
* I agree with the suggestion to make a major effort to get out of the house and build a social network of your own. I find lunch or coffee with other women to be a great way to avoid having to deal with either of the husbands.
*Look for solo hobbies that allow you to really focus on what you are doing and take you out of yourself (painting, reading, writing...) Meditation might also be very helpful in getting you in touch with yourself and releasing stress over what doesn't matter.
* Find ways to connect with the parts of your husband that you like. If he is much better behaved with the children than with other adults, try to spend time doing child-centered activities together. If he is good at fixing things, make a point to watch and remind yourself that you like this side of him.
****Most important of all - Please get some individual counseling for yourself. You need someone who really understands your situation to help you figure this out. The therapist should be unbiased - it is not about what she would do but about helping you figure out what you will do - what is best for you and for your family. You are the heart of your family - you need to take care of yourself and maintain your emotional health if you are going to pull this off successfully. Good luck.
posted by metahawk at 1:10 AM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

twins named etc, thanks for pointing out the impossibility of knowing what is going to effect children. But you do see that that cuts both ways. I think a lot of people are really devoted to the idea that splitting up the household is less damaging than sticking it out in a bad marriage - in fact I think that most people don't pay enough attention to children to comprehend how painful the former is in the first place, nor do they take the feelings of children seriously enough to care - but there just isn't any way to know that.

Not all the children involved are genetically related to me and it is really obvious in a house where everyone shares environment while not everyone shares blood that not everything is due to environment, anyway.

The idea of resenting children for a choice I make is really foreign to me. It seems like another error of the variety my husband makes - inability to see that you make your own world to live in.

Everyone else, thanks for the help.
posted by daisydaisy at 2:06 AM on March 5, 2009

did your vows mention "for better or for worse"? thats the real question. how awful will you feel after the divorce. i know marriage isn't sacred anymore, and to most of the people here its just a social contract, but you need to figure out what marriage means to you and if he's worth all this trouble.
posted by Davaal at 3:32 AM on March 5, 2009

I'm wondering if separation for a time might be an option?
A respite for you, a wake-up call for him?

And let me interject some hope here-if a person is motivated enough, they CAN change. It doesn't have to be this way the rest of your life. He has to know that things are bad enough that you are thinking of leaving, and that his not taking responsibility is not an option.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:57 AM on March 5, 2009

Things you've said:

Marriage is not about your feelings, dude, it's a business arrangement. Hold up your end. -- So, if this is what you really think, what is your question?

Living a lie is just not anywhere near as bad as single parenting. It's not even in the same universe of badness. If single parenting weren't unbelievably grueling Mr. I Almost Died would be asking for advice on getting custody. But hell no he isn't - he doesn't want to be the one dealing ALONE with a puking child in the middle of the night.
-- Sounds to me like the only reason you're resisting being a single parent is because you've decided to let it be a living hell. Guess what? It only is if you allow it be. I've been a single mother to three boys for several years and I really love it. It has its moments of hassle and frustration, but I decided early on to just deal and not whine about it.

"The opportunities that will be open to you are literally unimaginable to you right now." -- Very true. Take your own advice.

"It's about how you perceive and construct yourself and the opportunities available to you." -- See above.

"You can't just pack and go when you have four children." Yes, actually you can. Every community in the U.S. has programs and resources to make that happen. OTOH, since you apparently live in the "state of constant frustration with self and others" you might not be open to their help.

"Stability and predictability is extremely important for children" -- True, but plenty of military families make it work. Know what's more important that stability and predictability? A serene environment with happy parents, even if it's just one full-time parent.

So, what do you want from us? Pity, or to tell you to DTMFA? You seem to accept neither.

Look, I'm not trying to be harsh but I'm not sure what you're asking here. You can't change your husband and make him into a more likable person. You're miserable, but you won't leave him. You've already decided that you won't be a single parent. If you don't want to be lonely and socially isolated, get a hobby, join a book club, or check Meetup.com for groups with similar interests as you. Go places and do things without him. That seems to be your only option.

Good luck.
posted by _Mona_ at 4:08 AM on March 5, 2009 [22 favorites]

Okay, I'm going to sidestep the whole issue of whether or not you should divorce or otherwise leave, and take a stab at answering your actual question, which is basically, "How do I deal with this pretty-much untenable person?"

For someone like your husband, whom you describe as "[lacking] the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life" I wonder if what he needs is IMMEDIATE, EXPLICIT, and STRONG feedback on his behaviour.

In the past on AskMe, I've seen people recommend behavioural approaches to dealing with other people who are being really unreasonable. One of the questions was within the last few weeks, and dealt with a friend who was constantly criticizing, and the answer involved calling that person out with a DING every time they did the bad behaviour. (The commenter called this "ding training.")

In a more general sense, look up some books on behaviour modification techniques. Figure out what rewards your husband finds pleasant, and which you can offer him immediately and periodically (in the olden days with psych inpatients, they used cigarettes or bites of food), and also figure out if there's a negative consequence you can make happen to call him out for every. single. instance. of bad behaviour.

The thing is, this requires a lot of effort on your part. You need to weigh the costs and benefits of putting in this kind of effort vs. figuring out a plan to leave.
posted by peggynature at 4:55 AM on March 5, 2009

Just wanted to share my anecdotal experience. My parents got divorced when I was young. My mom got us from Soviet Russia to the USA, a very lengthy process at the time that involved traveling through several countries. I am not sure what kind of instability you're imagining, but what with spending months going from foreign country to foreign country only to land in the US with a two-word English vocabulary, I'd say I've got instability covered. We moved around a lot when I was a kid while my mom learned the language and got the family on its feet. I came out OK. That stuff just didn't affect me very much. I didn't fully appreciate the risks or dangers of our circumstances. I didn't even know we had been on food stamps until my mom mentioned it years later (though I knew we had been broke). The travel, the poverty, those things didn't affect me much. My relationship with my parents, and their relationship with each other, affected me enormously and continues to affect me to this day. I was always very aware of how they treated each other. My mom wasn't willing to accept a marriage in which she was unhappy. Nor do I allow men to treat me badly, thank god. She is a model to me, for which (among so many things) I am incredibly grateful.

In other words, add my voice to the chorus of people telling you that leaving is not impossible, and it's not toxic to children to break up a bad marriage. Right now, you're teaching them that it's acceptable to treat people the way your husband treats you and to be treated that way. Kids can bounce back really well from moving around or from being broke (which rarely terrifies them the way it terrifies adults). Adults spend years in therapy trying to bounce back from learning destructive relationship patterns and trying to shed their unhealthy coping strategies.

I understand how frightening and difficult that choice seems, but I believe that you owe it to yourself and to your children to take it very seriously. Don't dismiss it as impossible before you really try to find a way to make it work.
posted by prefpara at 5:50 AM on March 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

I applaud your desire to stay together for the sake of the family. My parents grew to hate each other and eventually divorced when I was 18, and my youngest sibling was 9. The next 10 years were miserable. Every family act was a delicate balancing act for me and my siblings not to offend or slight one parent or another. I was old enough to be OK with it emotionally, and my sister was young enough to roll with it, but my two brothers didn't fare so well. They were old enough that their sense of stability was shattered, but too young to deal with it well. And because there were now two households and half the parenting, they had plenty of time to be unsupervised and develop bad habits. Still goes on to this day, really, but it's getting better. My point is, the family would *absolutely* have been better off had they stuck it out for a few more years and worked at parenting (and coping skills with each other) instead of trying to rebuild their lives. They could have come to an arrangement and we all would have suffered less...

It sounds sort of like you are in a similar situation- my mom saw the future and didn't like what she saw, and needed to make a change- I understand that. My dad was and is sort of like your husband. Generally a good guy, is a good father, and has issues with "the world". I'm sure he took the marriage for granted, but it's hard not to when you've got three teenage boys and a surly pre-teen girl. Now they are both miserable in their own ways, and their marital status with each other isn't the reason.

My point is, think back to why you got married in the first place. What did you like about the guy? Play out the various options- how will life be better/worse depending on what decisions you make? But ultimately, sit down with the husband and figure out how to make your family better. I'd suggest a weekly co-therapy session, but he may not cotton to that. Another suggestion might be a weekly "date" where just the two of you sit down and talk. Reestablish whatever is missing. Or come to an arrangement.

(And don't discuss big issues when you are in the heat of disagreement. Never works, builds distrust. And if I'm guessing right at your husband's mindset, he might be one of those people who stresses out about schedule changes- if he's got it in his mind that every night is his time for online solace, just saying "let's go out tonight" will drive him nuts. Schedule the time in advance. It's hard to do, but there is a way to say "this is something I need you to do for me and it has to happen, but I want to arrange it with you so it works for both of us," where you get the message across that the concept is not negotiable, but the timing is.)


(I highly recommend against "training" people you love. It's disrespectful, and for someone like your husband, I'm sure it will backfire. People with issues don't usually respond well to these sorts of tactics.)
posted by gjc at 6:07 AM on March 5, 2009

(And to the "bad marriages set bad examples to kids" crowd, I agree. Seeing your parents treat each other badly or even unkindly is not a good example. But divorce won't change that. The best example, provided violence isn't involved, is to work to fix the problem. It sets the example that unkindness isn't cool, but also that when you have a problem with someone you love, you work at fixing the problem rather than disengaging from that person. Even if it eventually results in divorce, a real, obvious effort at repairing the relationship sets an example.)

(Also forgot this- besides the one on one date night, try having a family night. I know this one family who set up one night a week as a non-negotiable family dinner night. They are closer and better adjusted than any other family I know, and I suspect this is one reason for it.)
posted by gjc at 6:16 AM on March 5, 2009

I was raised by a mother with serious mental illness. Bipolar disorder, paranoid schizophrenia, multiple suicide attempts.

I figured it out as I got older, and learned to separate myself from her illness and her patterns. I had to grow up more quickly than I would have otherwise, and it's given me occasion to reflect as an adult. But the good of it is at least on par with the bad.

I'd say the best thing you can do with your children is to model appropriate behavior in your interactions with your husband. If you can live a healthy life despite his behavior, if you can maintain your balance and your sense of self and treat him with respect despite his acting out, if you model that for you children, they will understand and they will learn tremendously from it.

On the other hand, if you are miserable and your relationship with your husband is dysfunctional and abusive and you get hooked in and caught up by his patterns, then your children are more likely to be unhappy, to lose respect for you, and to repeat these negative patterns in their own lives.

It sounds to me like you are more in the former category than the latter, so I'd say: get the outside support you need, maintain your perspective, shower your kids with love.
posted by alms at 6:42 AM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you aren't in therapy now you should consider it. You sound like you are in a really hard place and you need to talk about and work out solutions with someone else. Acknowledge the marriage you hoped for isn't ever happening with this person and grieve the loss of that dream. Maybe if you seperate the idea/ideal of your husband from the reality that he is a deeply flawed person you can have compassion for him and feel peace within yourself. Rather than a partner, look to him as a roommate, one you can't evict and has annoying habits but one who has no power over you and cannot hurt you the way a close partner can. This means letting go of the blame you feel is his (however justified) because you need to move past blame and accept a changed relationship and no longer have normal expectations for him as a husband. Put all the energy you used to put into him and put it into you. Develop yourself, your interests, your hobbies, your friends, your education and your work. It sounds like you need some good girlfriends to blow off steam with and centre yourself with (yes, I am a mother too and it IS hard to get time for yourself but you absolutely must have a chance to recharge yourself).

You can't change him but you can change yourself and your reactions to him. I know you said he had good qualities too but the bad ones were there at the start as well - look inside yourself for what you were getting from the negative qualities and whether this was mirroring dynamics you have seen or experienced before - were you looking for someone to rescue, someone to feel superior to, afraid of abandonment, someone just like daddy? You don't want to mirror this relationship in your next one; learn from your mistakes. Right now he is bad and you are good, he is wrong and you are right. Try to let go of the addiction to always being right or the martyr or whatever role you have cast for yourself in reaction to him.

Since divorce is something you are considering for the future then get your ducks in a row right now. Go to a family lawyer and discuss how to have a fair divorce in five years (it is much easier for them to have a proactive informed client that gives them the tools to help). Find out what you need to do for the next five years to make sure you get an equitable amount financially (as his last divorce was acrimonious assume he will have the same reaction and he will already know many "tricks" to tip the scale in his favour). Speak with a financial planner to look at your financial goals now and post-divorce. You sound like you are doing the best you can under the circumstances, good luck in the future.

A book I highly recommend for you is Imperfect Harmony (also known as The Marriage Makeover) by Joshua Coleman.
posted by saucysault at 6:46 AM on March 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

Seconding the suggestion to see if he has Asperger's. If so, understanding the condition will answer the "how to" questions.
posted by Jurate at 7:46 AM on March 5, 2009

"My husband has no offline friends. He would be nearly unemployable, but manages to avoid getting fired for his hideous behavior by being extremely valuable to his employers. His career has definitely been affected by his issues, however. He has the most tenuous of relations with his family of origin. He has been divorced, and it was very ugly."

How long has this been this way? What is his hideous behavior? Be more specific.

"He takes no responsibility for any of this. None, zero, zippo. It's all other people's fault."

This raises a warning flag.

"I am coming to accept that the light is never going to turn on for him, or at least it isn't likely. What is likely, unfortunately, is that with age he is going to get more negative, more combative, more unpleasant, more of the unlikable person who makes people literally walk away from him in midconversation. He appears to lack the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life."

Also raises a warning flag.

"There are four children. Divorce or separation will be devastating for them. While they are adversely affected by living in this situation, I am not confident in my ability to single parent in a way that will not be significantly worse for them."

You don't know that. You have resources; talk to them first. Also, talk to a lawyer.

"I am pretty sure that staying is the right thing to do, for now. He has good qualities, or I wouldn't have married him. I work on focusing on those, a lot. But how do I deal with the fact that the bad stuff is probably never going to change? How do I make it more tolerable? How do I ensure the children do not think his behavior is normal? How do I counteract the social isolation caused by his driving people away? How do I deal with the resentment that it's all on me to make it all happen?"

Be a good role model for your kids. Spend more time around them. Deal with him in a constructive way that neither antagonizes him, nor makes him look correct at all. Give your kids outlets for their stress. As someone who has dealt with several stressful situations colored by my parents' issues for 20 fucking years, I can tell you that giving kids the occasional happy time - a trip to an amusement park, the beach, a museum, and even sitting down and helping them with their homework and giving them hugs - will help them. As for that matter, make some friends on your own.

I am definitely not in the same boat - I'm unmarried, am not having children ever - and at the same time, I've been on the other side of shit that's mildly similar to this. Please, please get some help .
posted by kldickson at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2009

You might check out some books by Lundy Bancroft. He wrote a book about dealing with partner abuse (I'm not saying this is that, though I think it's possible), but in that most popular book ("Why Does He Do That?") he talks about how kids in these abusive relationships do better when the non-abusive partner puts attention into being a good parent, and his other books (which I haven't read) focus more specifically on children. This might help.

I also wonder if leaving as the older children are approaching adolescence and teenager-hood and really beginning to form ideas about romantic relationships could be its own problem. But I hear you about how hard it would be to leave.
posted by salvia at 9:33 AM on March 5, 2009

Meaning 'I've been the kid who's dealt with crap parents'.
posted by kldickson at 9:46 AM on March 5, 2009

He takes no responsibility for any of this. None, zero, zippo. It's all other people's fault.... He appears to lack the ability to connect his behavior with the things that happen to him in his life.

This could be psychological denial. It could also be a lack of empathy and insight brought on by certain physical conditions, one of which is a form of dementia called frontotemporal. It often arises in midlife (median onset ~54y). Unlike Alzheimer's, in which memory is lost, this one affects planning, analysis, social, and semantic functions. Two salient symptoms are a growing lack of empathy (functional inability to see a problem from someone else's point of view) and lack of insight into their own condition (they're not sick, everyone is being silly, etc.).

What is likely, unfortunately, is that with age he is going to get more negative, more combative, more unpleasant, more of the unlikable person who makes people literally walk away from him in midconversation.

This is basically the prognosis for someone with FTD. It has been described as someone losing the ability to be liked.

The ability to interact well with other people is generally a key factor in success in the workplace. The first signs of frontotemporal dementia often are revealed this environment. Patients make inappropriate comments, insult colleagues and fail to be sympathetic to other people's concerns.

If you believe that your husband has always been this way, that's one thing, but if you believe his behavior has fundamentally changed (perhaps over a period of several years), you may want to consider investigating neurological causes. FTD is not treatable per se but some of its symptoms may be alleviated, e.g. combativeness with an anti-psychotic.
posted by dhartung at 9:51 AM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

I know someone who sounds a lot like your husband (that is, without knowing all of your husband's bad traits or behavior), and I hate to be the Voice of Doom, but chances are he will never change. Therapy, counseling, whatever; he'll either refuse to go or dismiss it all as nonsense ("doctors are the crazy ones, there's nothing wrong with me"). If you're going to stay with him, your best bet is to try and keep yourself and your children as happy as possible in such a situation. Are you at home while he's at work? Then maybe that's the time that you can do fun things with the kids, or maybe get a sitter for a few hours and have some time on your own (visit friends, go to a movie, whatever). Be tolerant of hubby when you're with him to keep the peace, but forget about all his problems and difficulties when he's not around. Pretend you're a single mom then and enjoy yourself.
posted by Oriole Adams at 10:49 AM on March 5, 2009

Kudos to you for trying to keep this marriage together for your kids. I really admire this. When I was in 4th grade and my parents divorced, I thought it was no big deal. I missed my dad (only saw him every other month or so) but was otherwise pretty blase about it. But now that I'm an adult and married, and now that I look at my mom's life now and my dad's life now, I think my parents, and especially mom my mom, who initiated the separation and divorce, should have tried a little bit harder instead of worrying so much about their own self-actualization. I think people work hard to justify divorce, but I think a lot of people should be asking more often, "What do I need to do to make this marriage work?"

So good for you for making this work.

I'm not sure how you can tell your kids your dad's behavior is bad, but maybe you should try having very straight-forward conversations with them about how to be a good friend, etc. And I second the advice about keeping yourselves really busy. Fill up your dance card.

Best of luck to you.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:52 AM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

He has as much right to the children as I do. Courts do not take away parental rights on the grounds of "he's a jerk and has no friends.

If you are planning to divorce in the future, document, document document. If his jerkiness manifests itself now or in the future as addicition, cruelty, extreme unreasonableness, or anything that might make a court unsympathetic to him, make a record. Know who your allies are. You have them.

Additional anecdote: I am a child of divorce and so glad they divorced.
posted by pointystick at 10:53 AM on March 5, 2009

Keep your chin up. I understand everyone's pleas for you to leave, they hear that you are unhappy and it seems simple to them. Oh, if only it were, right?

Ideas for coping until being on your own is a possibility:

*model the behavior you would want to see in your children. If you are being treated poorly, speak up assertively and fairly and offer ways in which it can be avoided in the future. "Hey, I'm sorry you've had a bad day, but barking at me to hand you the remote is not OK. If you want me to hand you something, just ask, ok?" This sends the message to the kids: your problem is not my problem, I can speak respectfuly even when I'm defending myself, I am worthy of being spoken to properly, I can empathize when someone is struggling, I can remove myself from a bad situation before it escalates, etc.

*Don't allow it to be the elephant in the corner. The kids see the nasty behavior, they see that Dad has no friends, they see it wearing on you. Acknowledge it. let them know how you feel about it, but more importantly, give them lots of time and space to talk about how it affects them. You don't have to manage their relationship with their dad, but you should be engaged in it enough to know how they're feeling and they should feel free to talk about it with you. Commiserate without adding fuel to the fire. Don't say anything hurtful about dad.

*be protective only to a degree. Do not smoothe everything over for him. he is responsible for himself and his behavior, and the kids will sometimes feel hurt or sad by his behavior. Let them feel it. It's just a feeling, it will end, and another feeling will come along to replace it. It is utterly impossible to defend your children against the consequences of his personality, so remove yourself from it. Obviously this does not apply to abuse of any kind.

*Find activities or hobbies that you can enjoy without him, hopefully with the children. Join a church (etc) or a group that motivates you. This will allow your circle to widen without being hindered by Mr. Personality over there.

*Find a support group or some type of therapy that you can afford to unload or process the struggles you face in this situation.

*Keep your eyes on the horizon.
posted by agentwills at 11:20 AM on March 5, 2009 [8 favorites]

Reading between the lines here, I have a hunch that the reason you're staying in this unhappy situation isn't because of the kids, it's because you are financially dependent on him.

I suspect that if you won the lottery tomorrow you would be out of that situation very quickly. The kids reason may be a justification.

If it is about money, make sure you have either a good job or a good divorce lawyer.

My gut feeling is that this isn't about love, or staying in it for the sake of the kids, it's about money. You can take care of yourself, you'll be fine. Life is short, really really short. You don't want to waste so many years of your life being unhappy. The kids are unhappy in the current situation too.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 12:43 PM on March 5, 2009

Actually Flying Squirrel, we did win the lottery! Not the real lottery, but one of the most important reasons he doesn't get reality checks is a combination of merit and luck on both our parts have caused to us to be sitting on a staggering amount of money.

But see, it is my money, just like they are his children. That's how marriage works. It's not gendered. A divorce doesn't mean he walks off with the money because he has the penis and I get total control of the children because I have the uterus. It's a fifty-fifty split, which is not magically easier to handle than being married to the person was.

Financially, I could walk off and make a pretty nice life *for myself* but I am not as sanguine as many posters here about the effects on children of 18 years of negotiating joint custody with a man who can't negotiate what should go on the grocery shopping list without insults and tantrums.

A lot of people seem to truly believe that walking away from the *marriage* equals ending the relationship. Why would you think that? I can't ever stop co-parenting with him. Now if someone tells me "my husband was like this, we divorced, and our co-parenting relationship is awesome or at least tolerable" that would be very interesting to me. _Mona_, do you love the part of single parenting that involves your sons' father? How does that work for you?

And whoever suggested frontotemporal dementia, I have reason to believe he may have frontal lobe brain damage. So yeah, there is a "in sickness or in health" issue here as well.

Remember, everyone posting that I should OBVIOUSLY leave - not just consider it, not just have my ducks in a row for it, but post - someday you might get knocked on the head and get nasty, combative, and irrational too. And everyone might tell YOUR spouse DMTFA.

There have been a lot of helpful suggestions here, thanks. And I am rather pleased that there isn't much in the way of "I'm living like this and here's how I deal," because at least there aren't zillions of people out there suffering like this! That's nice to know.
posted by daisydaisy at 1:26 PM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

So to paraphrase, your main (long-term) reason not to leave is that the strife resulting in attempting to coparent with this person will put so much stress on the children that the resulting situation will be worse than the current environment. That's a valid and very reasonable fear -- and it is indeed damn scary, if like any good parent you put the childrens' best interests before your own or those of your spouse, and hesistate to take risks with their well-being.

I suggest you skim some of The Psycho Ex Wife, which bears a number of similarities to your situation, and which indeed ended up on the side of the spectrum featuring the type of coparenting situation you fear. I'm not saying yours would be similar -- rather, I'm saying that's the worst that yours would have a reasonable chance of being. But I'm pretty sure if you asked the author of that blog whether, from his perspective as a parent, the misery of this situation was worth the dissolution of the marriage, he'd reply "Oh hell yeah" -- and the divorce wasn't even his idea.

A note; you mention that you believe he is a "good father", but fear "the effects... of negotiating joint custody with a man who can't negotiate what should go on the grocery shopping list without insults and tantrums". Those beliefs are in conflict: either he is a good father and would put the children's interests first even when coparenting -- or he is not, and will whine and throw tantrums even when it's clearly to their detriment. I don't know which is true, but both cannot be.

One last note: you are, unfortunately, not alone in the misery resulting from an emotionally difficult spouse. It might be useful to you to read my earlier post, and consider whether I'm a moron for not yet extricating my children and myself from this marriage or a noble husband for sticking it out (note that the jury's still out for me, but in my experience you're quite right that ingrained personality traits are unlikely to change). Our situations have enough similarities that your reaction to mine might help clarify your feelings with regard to your own.
posted by UtterlyDrained at 2:09 PM on March 5, 2009 [3 favorites]

I too was a woman with four kids who thought she couldn't make it on her own and so I let the situation deteriorate for five years longer than I should have. It was and remains, the biggest regret of my life because my husband and the relationship only got worse and that is the example that my son got to see of how to treat people. I really think it would have been better to do it when they were younger than wait until they were all teenagers.
posted by tamitang at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2009 [4 favorites]

I'm too emotional about this situation to post much, but having been a kid in this situation, I'd like to emphasize what tamitang said. (And also the people recommending Al-anon.)

It's weird that it's my mom who my brother and I are still upset at for not getting us out of the situation. Why not crazy dad? Well, because he was very clearly crazy. On the surface, at least, Mom wasn't, and yet she inflicted him on us until we were teenagers.

Of course, Mom was just as crazy, as evidenced by her sticking around. That's the stealthiness of codependency for you. What's more, since the squeaky wheel gets the grease, most of her energy went towards crazy dad, responding to "emergencies" and smoothing over all the social, financial, and other disasters left in his wake. I'm mixed on whether or not this ended up as a net positive to me and my brother. The older I get the more I shudder to think of all that energy directed towards us instead. But who knows.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:04 PM on March 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

Oops, late coming back to the thread.

daisydaisy said: It seems like another error of the variety my husband makes - inability to see that you make your own world to live in.

Oh absolutely. I recognize now that my mother had pretty major depressive symptoms back then, if not outright BPD, and it seems like your husband has similar problems. Also, she too had a history of childhood trauma.

== The idea of resenting children for a choice I make is really foreign to me.

I should add that it's never worse than when you a) know you've made a bad decision b) that it's for the "right" reasons c) cannot or will not ever admit it because then it would imply that you need to start taking responsibility for your own life and d) would actually have to start doing a lot of painful reflection/thinking before starting to realize that the "right" reasons, themes of self-sacrifice etc. that the world has drilled into your head, can be pretty "wrong" (by "you" here I mean her).

In other words, she started secretly resenting me and would never admit it to either me or herself because that would mean she would be a "bad mother".

It was all very self-deceptive and obviously she didn't mean for that to happen but she couldn't really stop herself from thinking it. And I think the more she tried to take responsibility for it, the more her tires started spinning -- since blaming yourself often masquerades as taking responsibility.
posted by twins named Lugubrious and Salubrious at 5:39 PM on March 5, 2009

Okay, you have the money and the ability to draw a big line in the sand.

So why haven't you? Again, separation and divorce are not synonymous. You and the kids could use a respite, and your husband could use a concrete wake up call.

I mean, what a horrible thing to leave someone to-to be the person no one can stand. Will you stand by and let him sink further and further into being that person?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:03 PM on March 5, 2009

From what I've read out of you, daisydaisy, there is no way on this earth you are leaving your husband, ever, full stop, period.

Okay, fine. Here's my advice based on never leaving no matter what:
* Get antidepressants.
* Get a shrink for yourself.
* Get a shrink for your kids, because they're gonna need one. Probably their entire adult lives. I say this realistically, not sarcastically, because they are gonna have to learn elsewhere what is "normal," not at home. Unlearning what they learn from being around their dad for 18 years is probably going to take them the rest of their lives. You can't help that, because what they learn at home is the first thing, and the basis for everything. Someday, they will have to learn a new foundation on their own as adults.
* Just accept that you are going to be unhappy as long as your husband is alive.
* Suck it up and endure his shit without hope of it ending. You're doing it now, you will eventually learn to do it forever. Eventually, you will get so numb you won't care any more. That's your goal. Numbness is the only way to make it "tolerable."
* Have a social life outside of the house, at work, without him.
* You're just gonna be resentful. You have darned good reason to be. That won't go away.
* You'll just have to suck it up and deal with the loneliness without end.
* What salvia said.

I'm not at all saying this sarcastically or meanly, though it looks that way. I'm going with the choice you're making here. Maybe being a single parent with an resentful and ventful ex-husband is just as bad as leaving, I won't argue that point. You will be miserable no matter what, it's just a case of how miserable everyone else is along with you here. I don't know how miserable your kids will be, they may be either way, but your husband will probably be bitchier, so I guess you're making him "happier" by staying. But either way, you're choosing to be unhappy and that's...just how it is. Sometimes people do that. You can't make this situation any better than it is, really, you and the kids will just have to endure. Sorry.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:09 PM on March 5, 2009 [2 favorites]

daisydaisy,

Just reading between the lines here, having spent years 5-13 in a family situation with a nasty, combative and irrational stepdad who also had no friends and spent his free time suing business associates and relatives (when he wasn't belittling or threatening my mother or his biological kids), and it sounds to me like you're afraid for your safety and/or the safety of his biological kids if/when you finally leave him.

I had nightmares for years after my mother FINALLY left him for good (the 3rd time's the charm), waking up in the middle of the night certain that he was coming to get us, finally having gone completely insane.
But even the worst 3am terrors burned off when the sun came up.
When we lived with him, the terrors lasted all day, every day. Just praying each day that this day would pass without some sickening episode of verbal abuse directed at whomever he had decided seemed the least capable of dealing with it.

And the days when we were picked on were the best days of all.
Because on the other days, we had to sit there, completely helpless and ashamed and guilty as hell, while we pretended it wasn't killing us to let him torture someone we loved.

My heart breaks for you and for the kids and for him, even.

But, if what you're really afraid of is violence...and not the kind of chronic, low-grade violence that is growing up in an environment with one parent who is unpredictable and not to be reasoned with...then I think you need to get help even more.

Because you have absolutely NO guarantee that he will not cross that threshold to violence over burnt toast tomorrow.

But what the hell do I know?
You may be right. Better the devil you know.
(God, I hope you can find your way out of this. And if posting here does nothing else, I hope it persuades you to find someone, a therapist, a spiritual advisor, who can be on your side. It really sounds like you need someone on your side.)
posted by mer2113 at 8:27 PM on March 5, 2009

I find it very difficult to believe that your husband can be the way he is and still be a good father. See, here's the conundrum: You say that in your husband's mind, he's always right and everybody else is always wrong. Not only is he incapable of empathizing or appreciating other people's points of view, he's also incapable of tolerating or letting go of these disagreements to the point where he resorts to cruelty and viciousness. He can't even bring himself to be kind to his own wife and has alienated all of his family, friends, and coworkers...

How is it possible that he could be a good father? I'm not just talking about all the harmful psychological effects your children suffer from growing up in such a stressful and unhappy home, or how seeing the way their father interacts with others will stunt and twist their own social development... I'm talking about your children's direct relationship with their father. Is he a friend and role model to your children? Is he gentle and tender with them? Do your children feel unconditionally loved by him? Are your children able to share their hopes and dreams, and fears, with him? Is he able to teach your children such values and virtues as patience, grace, respect, and kindness?

Based on what you've told us of your husband, I couldn't conceive of you answering yes to any of those questions - if he's truly incapable of being decent, then he must also be incapable of being decent to his children. If he is capable of being decent to his children, then how he treats others is a choice, not an illness, and consequently, he must be capable of realizing how his behavior towards others, and especiallytheir mother, must be adversely affecting them. If you indeed answered no to those questions, as I've predicted, then could you please explain exactly what it is that makes him a good father, and why you shouldn't remove your children immediately for their sakes?

Perhaps the problems aren't apparent right now, when your children are so young. But what will happen when your children are older, and start to develop opinions and ideas of their own? How can you trust your husband not to lash out terribly at your children when they have a disagreement, let alone if they get lippy at him as all teenagers will? What will happen when your children want to bring friends over to your home? It sounds as though your husband's behavior can range to frightening - how would you feel if your children began to lose friends (as you have) because of his atrocious behavior? I can tell you from personal experience (having a father with a terrible temper and bouts of alcoholism) that your children will also forever resent you for inflicting him upon them - to this day, it's still painful to think of how my mother used to defend my father when he had hurt us so badly, and how she never stood up to him for us.

Lastly... and I hesitate to say this, but I'm sure it's what many of us are thinking - have you ever wondered how you ended up wedded to such a monster? Perhaps he isn't the only one who may be suffering from some degree of mental illness or dysfunction. I've noted that you've been very cryptic on certain things, and have been careful to leave key facts out. It seems pretty clear to me that you're NOT staying for the sake of your children. You're staying because it will be easier for YOU. As difficult as it is to live with your husband, you think it would be even harder to live apart from him - the crux of your reluctance to leave is the aforeseen difficulty of managing a co-parenting arrangement. Perhaps, there's also the problem that you're lonely with your husband (since he has thwarted all your attempts at having some semblance of a social life) but you'd also be lonely without him (since you have few friends? no friends?) and that scares you. Maybe you like to play the role of the martyr, in which case you'll have to learn that self-sacrifice is sometimes extremely selfish. What your children need of you is a warrior, not a martyr.

You may be incapable of persuading your husband to accept the advice of a therapist or mental health professional, but perhaps you could put aside your pride and accept it for yourself.
posted by keep it under cover at 9:31 PM on March 5, 2009 [1 favorite]

daisydaisy, it sounds to me like you are bright, articulate, and have a good grasp of your situation, so I won't try to explain it to you or tell you what to do. You're asking for coping suggestions, so I will recommend looking around for a support group. The National Alliance on Mental Illness has local chapters that provide support for families of the mentally ill. Attending a support group can help you understand and deal with what goes on and keep your own sanity.
posted by exphysicist345 at 9:44 PM on March 5, 2009

If you are not going to physically divorce him, then I think you need to mentally divorce him and start creating a separate life for yourself. No one needs to know about this but you. I know this sounds stupid, but if you are going to stay with him, it's your only option. I guess I look at this as a sort of Victor Frankl / trancendence thing. You need to create your own world outside of him and live it, even if you are still living in the same house. As far as the resentment is concerned, you need to think like a hero and not a victim. That takes an incredible amount of strength. Now having that strength is a whole other story. This seems simplistic but I would start with joining a gym. You will make friends, relieve stress, and gain the strength necessary to deal with / marginalize your husband.
posted by jasondigitized at 8:05 AM on March 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Financially, I could walk off and make a pretty nice life *for myself* but I am not as sanguine as many posters here about the effects on children of 18 years of negotiating joint custody with a man who can't negotiate what should go on the grocery shopping list without insults and tantrums.

As a though experiment, take your sentence above:

"I am not as sanguine as many posters here about the effects on children of 18 years of negotiating joint custody with a man who can't negotiate what should go on the grocery shopping list without insults and tantrums."

and consider this.

What are the effects on children of 18 years of living with someone who can't negotiate a grocery list without insults and tantrums?

Are these regular exposures to insulting and immature behavior worse or better than the occasional custody negotiation between your lawyer and your spouse's lawyer?
posted by zippy at 12:15 PM on March 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Just as an example - you can be a dysfunctional person, and still get on with your kids.

E.g. often, Narcissistic Personalities really like/love their children, possibly more than anyone else. Often, that's because they view it as an opportunity to grant childhood wish-fulfilment fantasies they wished for themselves, but that's often because they see them as an extension to themselves, not individual people. Very sometimes, they view their offspring as 'real people', by virtue of having been their offspring.
Unfortunately, it can kind of be an infectious meme - narcissists raising other narcissists, or bpd's.

Not saying he's a narcissist, but perhaps it is some other variation that is somehow ok as a parent. Having a leeetle trouble seeing it.


I do understand that you are saying that he would likely be *worse* to deal with/as a parent post-divorce than he is now, and that seems easier.

This is a terrible, terrible suggestion, but:
any way you could get him to divorce *you* and kids? Just saying, and only *if* he's the type that would cling and rage in revenge if *you* divorced him, but would just 'zone off' and away if he divorced you? Or at least felt like it was his decision?

That, and - treat yourself like you are someone under immense stress, or depression, and treat yourself accordingly. Exercise, social time, meditation, joy in everyday things...
and, try and figure out what you can change, and accept the things you can't, and let them roll over you, like water off a duck's back.

Oh, and feed him. He starts grumping? Ignore what he's saying and get some food/tea/drink into him. Usually calms ranty people down, so don't take anything to heart for at least 15 mins.

(Ask me how I know, huh?)


Actually - watch SuperNanny. See if you can get any husband tips (ie for someone who rants about the grocery list like a four year old).
posted by Elysum at 3:12 AM on March 9, 2009

In case anyone is still reading, and is concerned about the small children: he is very kind and patient with small children. At home, 80% of his abuse is directed at me and 20% at the oldest child, who is nearly an adult and capable of telling him to stfu. We often do tell him to stfu when he's being extremely erratic. Outside of the house, he can't establish relationships so he can't really dig at people. He occasionally gets into fights.

This is one of the reasons divorce or separation is an option later, when my oldest child will be nearly a teenager, because it seems like only non-children are targets.

Here's another piece of info: people who know me online only are nearly unanimous that I should leave yesterday. People who spend time with us offline, as a family, don't want anything to do with him, and will arrange their social interactions with us to avoid him, but they see why I don't leave even though they will express their sympathy to me for being stuck with him. The children are very clearly securely attached to both of us.

Sure, it's true that it's upsetting for a child to see someone treat a beloved parent badly, but it's more upsetting to be separated from a beloved parent. Currently I am in a situation where I can minimize the first upsetting thing but divorce causes the second upsetting thing to become normal life.

As for the assertions that this isn't about what's good for the children, but about what's good for me: no, if it was about what was good for me I'd take the money and run. Money AND court-ordered free babysitting! Why would I turn that down?
posted by daisydaisy at 12:17 PM on March 13, 2009

Since you're describing his behavior towards you as "abuse," I will re-recommend the Lundy Bancroft books that focus on the impacts of partner abuse on children, even children who are not themselves abused. I was a bit wishy-washy in my recommendation above because I didn't know whether that was a fair characterization of his behavior. Bancroft does not say DTMFA but recognizes that there are many variables in a decision like that.
posted by salvia at 1:02 PM on March 13, 2009

Sure, it's true that it's upsetting for a child to see someone treat a beloved parent badly, but it's more upsetting to be separated from a beloved parent

I disagree with this 100%. Yes, change is hard on kids at first. So is making them go to their first day of kindergarten. You are the adult. You know what's in their best interest.

Two things to consider:

1) If you have joint custoday, they won't be losing the other beloved parent.

2) You are training your children that this is how a man should treat his wife. Even if they intellectually know better later, what they're experiencing NOW will always be what's more comfortable for them (barring years of therapy to undo it.)
posted by small_ruminant at 1:23 PM on March 13, 2009

I think you might be underestimating how upsetting it is for the children to see you abused. Personally, I have spent several years watching a good friend endure a marriage filled with horrific verbal abuse (screaming, insults, tantrums) and being forced to watch helplessly is deeply upsetting to me - I can't imagine how her children must feel. Personally, I feel powerless, I am in constant worry that he will escalate, and I feel I am always on eggshells in case my behaviour leads to him erupting at her. I am an adult with professional training in counselling and if I have such a hard time processing these emotions it is literally unfathomable how children can cope.

You are minimizing the effect of this abuse on your older child, teaching him/her that you approve of the child abuse and do not think the child is worth protecting, while simultaneously teaching the younger children that when their father turns on them they too will be be abandoned by you. In my opinion, a loving parent should not expect a teenager to navigate an abusive relationship with the other parent by themselves with their only defense telling the insulting parent to STFU. You should tread very carefully as many children turn their adult anger not on the parent that abused them but (rightly IMHO) instead on the parent that refused to protect them.

I wish you the strength to do what is best for the children that did not choose to enter this abusive relationship.
posted by saucysault at 6:38 AM on March 14, 2009

Sure, it's true that it's upsetting for a child to see someone treat a beloved parent badly, but it's more upsetting to be separated from a beloved parent. Currently I am in a situation where I can minimize the first upsetting thing but divorce causes the second upsetting thing to become normal life.

You are so very, very wrong. First off, don't ever think that your children, even the youngest of them, don't see far more than you imagine. Secondly, your children are learning how to be people right now - they are learning to set boundaries and how to treat others. What lessons are they learning now? That some forms of abuse are ok? That it's better to stick with someone who abuses you than to risk other emotional pain? Your children will feel hurt if you divorce your husband - but it's the pain of separation, not the pain of watching your mother be abused every day of your childhood. I've been there, I know - and unfortunately, it sounds like you won't realize that I'm right until your kids start emulating what they learned from their father.

This is breaking my heart.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 7:44 PM on March 14, 2009

Sure, it's true that it's upsetting for a child to see someone treat a beloved parent badly, but it's more upsetting to be separated from a beloved parent.

This makes it sound like you think parents fighting has no impact on how any of the children will think about how marital relationships or conflict resolution are supposed to be conducted (it sounds like there aren't any conflicts truly resolved, an emotionally healthy working-out of problems, for them to witness). And that you think it has no risk of having negative impacts on their own senses of self.

I hope you look up some literature on child development and parental conflict (I googled "child development" and "witness parental conflict"). It should give you some ideas about specific things to check in with your kids about: is one kid blaming her/himself, for causing parental fights or failing to prevent or resolve them? Is another losing ability to trust? (eg, from experiencing unconditional love from one parent when very young, only to have that parent irrationally turn hostile once the kid gets old enough to have opinions that conflict - a child might find this to be extraordinarily disorienting, unstable, and a betrayal)

Quotes from the Woititz book that, again, may be helpful to check in with each of your kids about as they grow up: "Adult children of [dysfunctional families] guess at what normal is. . . . Your home life varied from slightly mad to extremely bizarre. Since this was the only home life you knew, what others would consider 'slightly mad' or 'extremely bizarre' were usual to you. . . . Part of what you did was live in fantasy. You lived in a world all your own that you created, a world of what life would be like IF. . . . What your home would be like IF . . . The way your parents would relate to each other IF . . .
"It becomes very clear that you have no frame of reference for what it is like to be in a normal household. You also have no frame of reference for what is okay to say and to feel. In a more typical situation, one does not have to walk on eggshells all the time. . . .
"Adult children of [dysfunctional families] have difficulty with intimate relationships. Adult children want very much to have healthy intimate relationships, and it is extraordinarily difficult for a number of reasons. The first and most obvious reason is that they have no frame of reference for a healthy intimate partnership because they have never seen one. The only model they have is their parents, which you and I know was not healthy.
"They also carry with them the experience of come close, go away - the inconsistency of a loving parent-child relationship. They feel loved one day and rejected the next. . . . Not knowing what it is like to have a consistent, day-to-day, healthy intimate relationship with another person makes building one very painful and complicated."
"A fully functioning person knows how to handle conflict in a responsible manner. This includes how to confront, how to deal with and how to resolve conflict. When you were growing up, you did not learn how to resolve problems. Problems were avoided, not resolved.
". . . Imagine that you are walking down a hall. There is a door in the hallway. You are about halfway down the hall and coming out of that door is someone ou are very angry with or someone you know to be angry with you.
"What do you do? Do you stand your ground and confront that person and say, 'It's good to see you. There are things we need to discuss.' Or do you turn around and walk away? Do you make some frivolous remark that has nothing to do with what you two need to work out? Do you walk on and pretend he is not there?
"What is it that you do when a potential conflict arises? How do you handle yourself? . . ."

Also, How To Help Your Child Overcome Your Divorce looks like something you may find helpful in the future. Good luck.

Oh yeah, and my mother in law says, "I joined a lot of clubs, choirs, anything that got me out of the house. I took the kids along once they were old enough. I taught dance. The kids loved that. I had to stand my ground. I just told him, 'I'm going,' and I went."
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:08 PM on March 15, 2009

I think you might be underestimating how upsetting it is for the children to see you abused. Personally, I have spent several years watching a good friend endure a marriage filled with horrific verbal abuse (screaming, insults, tantrums) and being forced to watch helplessly is deeply upsetting to me - I can't imagine how her children must feel. Personally, I feel powerless, I am in constant worry that he will escalate, and I feel I am always on eggshells in case my behaviour leads to him erupting at her. I am an adult with professional training in counselling and if I have such a hard time processing these emotions it is literally unfathomable how children can cope.

The word "abuse" is dicey because it applies to stuff like this, which is more clearcut, and stuff like my situation, which is really more like living with someone with Tourette's, or like living with an epileptic whose inability to accept the fact that he has seizures causes him to constantly have them in a way that ends up breaking people's stuff.

It's literally unfathomable to me how the world of children can be so opaque to you. Don't you remember being a child? Children cope because they love both their parents and because a lot of them don't really care. I'm going to get on a pile-on here about how I am minimizing the effect on my children, but I live with them and they are emotionally fine, because when you're a child, you really do not care about your parents' needs being met if you are living in a generally stable and predictable world. Reading this thread makes me think that maybe people just have a hard time realizing that a 6yo, seriously, cares a lot more about not having to move out of his house and not see his dog everyday than he does about my social life or relationship with his father. As for my youngest, it's monstrous to suggest imposing joint custody on a very young child if there is any way to maintain the household. That *is* losing one parent, over and over and over again. Preverbal children have no sense of time.

This thread has really been revelatory to me about how people value adults' wants over children's needs, and how they construct a way to pretend that fulfilling adult needs is *really* better for the children.

To sum up: my husband is a *jerk*, I may leave him, but him being a jackass is not grounds for leaving in a massively disrupting manner.
posted by daisydaisy at 2:51 PM on March 16, 2009

Don't you remember being a child?

It is exactly because many of us WERE this child that we feel so strongly about this.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:53 PM on March 16, 2009

Former child speaking up here.

I would emphatically not want to grow up in the household you describe. I'd prefer a kind, loving, and understanding mother and no father at all. Please try to understand what your home life is doing to the developing minds of your children, and the years of therapy they will require later on, if they are to become successful adults.
posted by exphysicist345 at 10:03 PM on March 16, 2009

It's literally unfathomable to me how the world of children can be so opaque to you. Don't you remember being a child? Children cope because they love both their parents and because a lot of them don't really care.

Yeah, I'm going to get this comment deleted because all I can say is....WHAT THE FUCK? I'm starting to smell raging narcissism here! You have no fucking idea what it feels like to watch abuse happen...it's obvious from every bullshit rationalization you have spouted in this thread. Yes...a 6 year old understands abuse - I saw it, I lived it, I knew it from the age of 2. You can rationalize this all you want, but I smell self interest coming off of you in waves. And yes, I realize that you want to be called on this, because that's part of the kink, isn't it...the abuse? You dare to call US on this? Really?

Chick, you are the fucking problem.

Good luck, and God save your children because you could give a fucking shit.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 12:46 AM on March 17, 2009 [4 favorites]