Vending Machine Bonus!

November 6, 2004 10:50 AM

Ethical question. The junk food vending machine in my department occasionally gets into a mode where the food is dispensed, but the money drops into the coin return bin. If you put in more than the required amount it will also give change, in addition to the food and original coins.

My question is, am I obligated to inform my colleagues?
posted by Wet Spot to work & money (33 comments total)

You mean tell them so they too can take advantage of it, or point it out, as to be honest in taking money that is not yours? ME, I'd count my good luck and enjoy that free snickers.
posted by BrodieShadeTree at 11:09 AM on November 6, 2004

Ask yourself, "What would the President of the United States do?"
posted by mookieproof at 11:16 AM on November 6, 2004

Well, what you describe (assuming you are taking the coins back out of the coin return bin) is theft. So, are you asking if theft is bad? It is in my moral framework, and I suspect it's bad in most other people's moral frameworks. I won't take your stuff if you won't take mine is pretty basic to the social contract. Is there really a question about this?
posted by willnot at 11:30 AM on November 6, 2004

As lucky as you might feel, the vending machine is not a magic box. It's a device that has to be restocked and serviced by an actual company owned and operated by actual people. Taking the free food, and in some cases, extra change, is stealing.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:32 AM on November 6, 2004

I would report it to the folks servicing the machine. I really don't like stealing. For just a candy bar or a packet of chips? Please...
posted by madman at 11:50 AM on November 6, 2004

Was this just an excuse to drag out this old joke?
posted by found missing at 12:02 PM on November 6, 2004

Well, what you describe (assuming you are taking the coins back out of the coin return bin) is theft.

How? Assuming, as a vending machine company would like to, that this vending machine replaces an actual worker, if I went to a mini-mart, paid for a chocolate bar with real money, and the guy there gave me the wrong change back willingly, and I walked out, this is *definately* not stealing (or, it isn't where I live). Morally, it might be questionable, but stealing? No way. There's not even a receipt.

BTW: Telling your colleagues will result in a run on that vending machine and more "moral damage", if you think of it like that. Phone up the number on the sticker somewhere on the machine, or tell security about the problem, if you need to.

Anyways, if this really were stealing, then I'd expect to be able to sue the vending machine (good luck) whenever whatever I choose gets stuck. I recall this happening so often at my old workplace that when the machine did the same screw-up you're mentioning, I made sure I got enough "deals" to compensate for how many times that machine had screwed me over.
posted by shepd at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2004

Do you really think that stealing is just a legal construct, shepd?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 12:08 PM on November 6, 2004

How about the rather common situation where someone else bought something, and it didn't get dispensed and they gave up and left it hanging. So you come along and can get two Snickers for the price of one. Is that stealing?
posted by smackfu at 12:16 PM on November 6, 2004

i say don't tell anyone, they'll figure it out unless they're supremely dense. I would also enjoy the free candy, while it lasts.
posted by bob sarabia at 12:19 PM on November 6, 2004

Ken Lay, is that you?
posted by found missing at 12:30 PM on November 6, 2004

LittleMissCranky, at one point I didn't, but then the MPAA, RIAA, CIRA, CRTC, DirecTV, DishNetwork, ExpressVu, and various other companies tried to co-opt the word to describe their own little petty problems with society, so now I can only take the word at face value. It's meaning has been so dissolved by different people that it's truly a meaningless word now.

Stealing *isn't*: Copying software, installing software one your laptop and home PC, getting a 2-for-1 deal from a candy machine, squatting on someone's property, pirating satellite TV, dubbing tapes, watching MLB in the wrong timezone/area, or paying for US TV (! seriously, that's what it's come to in Canada !).

Stealing *might* be, at a stretch: Using a near unlimited resrouce owned by someone who does not intend for you to use it. More generally, we call that fraud. Things like pirating cable TV or phone service land here, since you are using a few milliamps of current from their service box. Copying a DVD movie doesn't land here since you are using 100% your own effort and resources to do that.

Stealing *is*: The unwanted and illicit removal of items or money from the posession and use of one person, such that said person can no longer enjoy the use of said items, and the continued posession by yourself of said items.

Morally, this is a stupid argument. Just enjoy the deal while it lasts and to assauge your conscience, phone up the vendo company. You will be able to see how much they actually *care* about fixing the problem (which won't be that much) by how fast they get their asses out to the vending machine to fix it.

How's about this? Add up all the "deals" you've gotten from the machine, and offer a cheque for that amount to the repair guy. See the expression on his face when you do that (it'll be one of "What the hell?"... you know the kind of expression when something unexpected and, overall, pointless, happens).
posted by shepd at 12:35 PM on November 6, 2004

Yes, shepd - if a clerk gives you incorrect change back, and you notice and you don't say anything, you are stealing.

And, if you chose something, and it got stuck, I'd expect the vending machine company (or the management at the location of the vending machine by proxy) to make good on that.

There have been numerous times where I've asked for change back because something got stuck. I've always gotten that change back. If I didn't, then I think that I would certainly have standing to sue the owner of the vending machine. I probably wouldn't bother since my time is more valuable than the five cents per hour that I'd probably be able to recover, but I could sue, and I'd fully expect to win.
posted by willnot at 12:36 PM on November 6, 2004

And by the way, I agree that most of the other things you mention aren't theft, but if you take a physical item that doesn't belong to you (like a candy bar or change) then the fact that you're able to get away with it because of a flaw in the machine or the inattention of the clerk doesn't change what you've done. You knowingly took something that doesn't belong to you. Rationalize that as much as you want, but that's what you've done in that case.
posted by willnot at 12:40 PM on November 6, 2004

If this, to you, is a serious ethical dilemna, then you are a saint relative to most people on the planet.

Boo hoo hoo, and hoo again, for the vending machine company that makes their money from break-room impulse purchases and doesn't maintain their machines properly. Do you really think the person who owns that machine would give back the extra money if this happened to them? Do you think they stay awake at night, tormented by the guilt of, as shepd says, machines that short-change the customer?

But if it tears you up inside, by all means raise the alarm. But make sure to do it on your allotted 15-minute break, otherwise you're engaging in what Wal-Mart calls 'time theft.'
posted by bingo at 12:42 PM on November 6, 2004

I think that technically, if a clerk gives you incorrect change and you don't say anything, what you are doing is 'conversion' or perhaps 'larceny.'

Anyway, I don't want to come across like it really matters to me one way or the other which word gets assigned to the act. The idea of property itself is also a societal/moral/legal construction. It isn't unassailable, nor do I believe that it was handed down to us by some god (I'm aware that many people do believe this, and if you're one of them, I guess there's no point in even talking about this).
posted by bingo at 12:54 PM on November 6, 2004

willnot, I guess we're going to need to agree to disagree on this one.

However *I* do own and run a store, so, at least in my case, I can say about the change issue with forthrightness. And if I give out the wrong change, even if a customer notices it, I'd never accuse him of stealing, not even after he's left the store and I can confer with colleagues in private.

I'd just feel stupid for doing it and not do it anymore. At no point would I blame the customer. It wouldn't have even entered my mind to consider him at fault if you hadn't just suggested it there. It's 100% my fault for being a moron.

As far as I'm concerned, unless the vending machine is spitting change out left and right such that you end up with hundreds of dollars in your pockets, it's the same thing for the vending machine owner. It's 100% their fault for using faulty machines.

Maybe it's just an idealogical thing. My ethics tend to be more focused on "Don't be a dumbass and do stupid things yourself" than "Keep other people from doing stupid things". Now, where's my seatbelt... hmmm...
posted by shepd at 12:56 PM on November 6, 2004

Where I used to go for swimming lessons there was a candy / gumball machine where if you jiggled the crank thing just right it would spit out about twice as much candy than if you just twisted it normally.

I guess I'm a thief.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:54 PM on November 6, 2004

First, bingo, I don't think that anyone is saying that this is the greatest moral failing of our time. Nor does this have anything to do with mandates from god, for cripe's sake. On the other hand, if we can't agree that there are some things that are not ethical, despite the lack of a) babies and puppies and nuns being tortured, or b) an inflexible and universal deity, then I guess there's really no point in discussing pretty much anything at all.

Second, I agree with shepd that the law can include some pretty stupid things under the stealing rubrick. On the other hand, I don't think that excuses, you know, actual stealing. I certainly don't think the "they were asking for it" defense ever really changes the ethical implications of your actions.

Also, shepd, I don't think from your other comments around here that you really think this, but "My ethics tend to be more focused on "Don't be a dumbass and do stupid things yourself" than "Keep other people from doing stupid things," sounds a whole lot like just looking out for number one, which may be a personal philosophy, but doesn't really pass for an ethical code.

I guess that there are really two questions that could be addressed here. First, is it ethical to take the extra money or candy? Second, should the original poster remedy the situation? I think that you could argue that the answer to the second question is not solely determined by the answer to the first, but I think that it's manifestly clear that the answer to the second absolutely does not change the answer to the first.

In other words, just because:
- it isn't a big deal
- they were asking for it
- I get screwed all the time
- they would laugh at me if I rectified it
- there are bigger problems in the world
- other people call silly things "stealing"

it doesn't really change the ethics of the act.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 2:40 PM on November 6, 2004

Phone the vending machine company and tell them their machine is on the fritz. They're relying on the revenue from these things to make a living.

Unless there are other mitigating factors.
posted by Blue Stone at 3:05 PM on November 6, 2004

This happened to me the other day and I didn't consider any kind of ethical dillema, I just thought "ooh, free sweeties". It's not my fault if the machine is broken, and its not my fault if someone gives me the wrong change. On the other hand, maybe I'm not very nice.
posted by Orange Goblin at 3:30 PM on November 6, 2004

Where I used to go for swimming lessons there was a candy / gumball machine where if you jiggled the crank thing just right it would spit out about twice as much candy than if you just twisted it normally.

As a kid I had tried to get some choccy called a curly wurly bar out of the vending machine at my local swimming pool. In my innocence I went up to a member of staff and said 'excuse me but my curly wurly is stuck!' Just imagine their expression :D

IMO, a free choccy bar is no criminal offence because it is a fault of a dodgy machine and you are just lucky. One of the guys who maintain the machine will figure it out in time. Save the lawyers for the important stuff.
posted by floanna at 3:44 PM on November 6, 2004

My question is, am I obligated to inform my colleagues?

how do you know they haven't been keeping this from you?
posted by quonsar at 4:00 PM on November 6, 2004

If it makes you feel better, every time you get a free candy bar, think of another time when some vending machine stole your quarter and you got squat.
posted by falconred at 8:29 PM on November 6, 2004

On the other hand, if we can't agree that there are some things that are not ethical, despite the lack of a) babies and puppies and nuns being tortured, or b) an inflexible and universal deity, then I guess there's really no point in discussing pretty much anything at all.

...and therefore, we're going to begin with the definition of 'ethical' as 'whatever LittleMissCranky says it is'?
posted by bingo at 9:57 PM on November 6, 2004

LittleMissCranky, be assured, I care about others. :-)

However, as you have seen my opinions in print, I think you'd probably agree, I do believe in the old saw "Live and let live". If you want to be silly and know better but decide to do it anyways, and you don't have a damn good reason for being silly, then it's not my place to stop you.

Anyways. In no way do I suggest they were asking for it! Although, I did mention I felt a little personal satisfaction ripping off the machine that ripped me off for years. :-) I can't remember sitting down ever and hoping the machine would break so I could exact some sort of odd revenge on it. cap'n shepd hunts for his little white vendo-matic whale chocolates

I find it tough to lay blame solely on the person getting the freebies because:

- They didn't break the machine
- The first free one was completely by surprise
- If the vendo company weren't so incompetent at maintenance, this would not happen!

These aren't excuses, but they are good reasons.
posted by shepd at 11:46 PM on November 6, 2004

shepd - so, you've said if you screw up and give somebody back a $20 instead of a $1, and they notice but walk out with it anyway, you figure that's your fault.

How about if you go in the back room for a minute, and somebody notices that there's not body watching and they reach into the till to grab a $20? Same thing? Your fault for not being vigilant enough?

I can only see 2 possible differences. First, when you gave them the wrong change, they don't have to worry about getting caught. They can always say they didn't even notice, so they're safe. Conversely, when reaching in for a $20, there's a chance you could come out and notice. Second, I guess you could make the argument that giving them the $20 is sort of like entrapment. So that they wouldn't have the courage to rip you off on their own, but if you're going to give them the money will then it's just their lucky day, and nobody should be expected to be honest in a situation like that.

How about turning it around. Say that you have a customer who never counts his change. If one of your employees shorted their change and slipped a dollar into their pocket -- you going to have a chat with them about that, or do you figure that it's the customers fault for not paying close enough attention to counting their change?

How about a quick-change artist who is skilled at confusing clerks about how much change they're giving out. If somebody comes in and takes you for $50, is that their fault or is it your fault for not paying enough attention?
posted by willnot at 12:41 AM on November 7, 2004

How about if you go in the back room for a minute, and somebody notices that there's not body watching and they reach into the till to grab a $20? Same thing? Your fault for not being vigilant enough?

No. In that case they decided to initiate the crime.

Intent is the difference between manslaughter and murder, and it's the difference between stealing and hurt feelings.

I can only see 2 possible differences.

See! There's always a third choice.

Say that you have a customer who never counts his change. If one of your employees shorted their change and slipped a dollar into their pocket -- you going to have a chat with them about that, or do you figure that it's the customers fault for not paying close enough attention to counting their change?

I'd fire the employee, clearly. I'd obviously offer the customer back their change, if I could (so many customers who want to buy cash, so little time... :-)

How about a quick-change artist who is skilled at confusing clerks about how much change they're giving out. If somebody comes in and takes you for $50, is that their fault or is it your fault for not paying enough attention?

Again, it's all intent. If it's a conman, clearly, he intends to rip off the store.

However, up to now, I've not had that happen. Perhaps it's the business I'm in or perhaps it's the area I'm in, I don't know. But, up to now, we've had very few customers rip us off like that. 100% of the scam artists are deadbeat debts.
posted by shepd at 1:48 AM on November 7, 2004

But any person who continues interaction with the vending machine after comprehending the situation correctly is guilty of interacting with the machine in such a way that he would now want repeated towards himself in his interactions with others.

And that ain't cool.
posted by cohappy at 1:57 AM on November 7, 2004

exactly cohappy. :)

Anyways, you guys can argue about small change if you like. Myself, when I spies an unattended and unguarded quarter, I keeps it (don't be silly, I'm not talking about the church's poor box, I'm talking about money someone lost on the street months ago).

I do try to keep my pockets sewn, though.
posted by shepd at 2:15 AM on November 7, 2004

There's also the matter of degree. For instance, reading and responding to an AskMeFi question while at work when one should be, for instance, packaging files to send off to the printer is theft as well. And yet, I'm okay with that. (To a certain degree.)
posted by papercake at 5:54 PM on November 7, 2004

if a clerk gives you incorrect change back, and you notice and you don't say anything, you are stealing.

No, no, no -- that's my tip for being such a wonderful customer!
posted by NortonDC at 6:54 PM on November 7, 2004

To put cohappy's point in simpler terms: if you get incorrect change back from the store clerk, you're lucky. If if happens again, and you start only going to that guy to check out because you know he's going to give you extra change, you're ripping off the store.

That's the difference.

Consider yourself lucky. Tell your facilities folks.
posted by mkultra at 1:15 PM on November 8, 2004