Too good to be true?
February 25, 2009 12:50 PM Subscribe
NYC apartment question - she wants to pay me for my address. Good idea or bad idea?
While looking for someone to rent a room to offset some expenses, I was approached by someone who wants to pay me to use my address in order to get her son into a better school district. Again: she wants to pay me the rent I am asking to NOT live here, simply to use my address. I'll need to put a utility bill in her name, sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration, and present a copy of my lease. I realize that this is all a little dodgy and not something the Board of Ed. would be too happy about, but it also sounds like one of those weird NYC things that probably happens a lot in this cutthroat, survive and thrive by any means environment. Is there something I'm missing about this whole arrangement? How likely is it that the Board of Ed. will snoop around and find out about our arrangement? What are the consequences?
For what it's worth, I get an okay impression from her - she's not pushy in the least, she says that if I am in anyway uncomfortable with the whole thing then she'll move on. The only reason my scam-filter is going off at all is 'cuz it seems too good to be true.
While looking for someone to rent a room to offset some expenses, I was approached by someone who wants to pay me to use my address in order to get her son into a better school district. Again: she wants to pay me the rent I am asking to NOT live here, simply to use my address. I'll need to put a utility bill in her name, sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration, and present a copy of my lease. I realize that this is all a little dodgy and not something the Board of Ed. would be too happy about, but it also sounds like one of those weird NYC things that probably happens a lot in this cutthroat, survive and thrive by any means environment. Is there something I'm missing about this whole arrangement? How likely is it that the Board of Ed. will snoop around and find out about our arrangement? What are the consequences?
For what it's worth, I get an okay impression from her - she's not pushy in the least, she says that if I am in anyway uncomfortable with the whole thing then she'll move on. The only reason my scam-filter is going off at all is 'cuz it seems too good to be true.
Or say yes and forget the conversation and don't sign or touch anything related to her plans. She can get her own bills in her name and notarize her own affidavits. Arms-length, don't get involved, but it sounds like a sweet way to have an apartment to yourself.
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on February 25, 2009
Fraud? Yes. A scam? No. People have done far crazier things to be in the "right" school district.
posted by ROTFL at 1:01 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by ROTFL at 1:01 PM on February 25, 2009
Don't do it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
My mom did this to get me into a more acceptable school, in NYC in 1989. Everything was fine. The Board of Ed had way better things to do than investigate where I was living. If the woman is paying rent to rent a room in your place, that's more than my mom even did. I guess what she does with the room is up to her, right? I mean she could be living there, if she's paying rent and all. Not saying do it, just saying as far as "risky" things go, this isn't very.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:10 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:10 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
Can you find out if the definition of "living" at an address is defined anywhere? It's theoretically possible that this might not even be dishonest at all. Owning or renting property in an area definitely does bring with it certain rights in that area (eg voting) in many parts of the world.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 1:12 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 1:12 PM on February 25, 2009
Why commit fraud, when you could so easily make it true?
Do it, but only on condition that she (and her son?) do in fact live there at the time you need to swear to it. She sleeps there for the week or two it takes to process all of this, you sign the form, then she goes back to wherever it is she wants to live. You are not committing fraud, and unless she is required to notify the school district when she "moves back" to her other place, neither is she.
posted by Methylviolet at 1:13 PM on February 25, 2009
Do it, but only on condition that she (and her son?) do in fact live there at the time you need to swear to it. She sleeps there for the week or two it takes to process all of this, you sign the form, then she goes back to wherever it is she wants to live. You are not committing fraud, and unless she is required to notify the school district when she "moves back" to her other place, neither is she.
posted by Methylviolet at 1:13 PM on February 25, 2009
dude anyone that says General rule for living: Don't participate in any kind of fraud. DOES NOT LIVE IN NYC.
This kind of scam is a dime a dozen in nyc. Do it, and do it now before they find someone else.
posted by alkupe at 1:16 PM on February 25, 2009 [5 favorites]
This kind of scam is a dime a dozen in nyc. Do it, and do it now before they find someone else.
posted by alkupe at 1:16 PM on February 25, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'll need to put a utility bill in her name, sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration, and present a copy of my lease.
The only reason my scam-filter is going off at all is 'cuz it seems too good to be true.
This is significant documentation. Is she going to be put on the lease? Utility bills in her name seem like a screamingly bad idea -- it's often difficult to get good customer service when the bills are in the correct name. Plus, the utility companies tend to require proof of residence, particularly if they are city or state-owned. (Something that I used to forget every time I moved in the haze of "lots of phone calls made that week.)
Sure, people have done far crazier things to get their kid into their desired school district, but this arrangement would make me nervous. I don't know how much money you'd be charging for the room, but it sounds like enough that you would might feel beholden to submit to future requests. What happens when she demands something more because "she's been paying you all this money for all of these months?"
posted by desuetude at 1:17 PM on February 25, 2009
The only reason my scam-filter is going off at all is 'cuz it seems too good to be true.
This is significant documentation. Is she going to be put on the lease? Utility bills in her name seem like a screamingly bad idea -- it's often difficult to get good customer service when the bills are in the correct name. Plus, the utility companies tend to require proof of residence, particularly if they are city or state-owned. (Something that I used to forget every time I moved in the haze of "lots of phone calls made that week.)
Sure, people have done far crazier things to get their kid into their desired school district, but this arrangement would make me nervous. I don't know how much money you'd be charging for the room, but it sounds like enough that you would might feel beholden to submit to future requests. What happens when she demands something more because "she's been paying you all this money for all of these months?"
posted by desuetude at 1:17 PM on February 25, 2009
alkupe, I think "do not commit" fraud is a great rule, and I live in Manhattan.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:29 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:29 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
Fine, I'll be the irresponsible person who says you could feasibly take the deal if she seems as unsketchy as you claim. The odds of this person being a wacko are only equaled, not surmounted, by the odds that this is a typical NYC parent obsessed with their child's education. Use Methylviolet's approach to avoid blatant fraud and then be happy that you fell into a weird loophole that frees you from paying the exorbitant rent everyone else in this city does. If someone offered me this deal, I'd jump on it.
posted by Hwaet at 1:29 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by Hwaet at 1:29 PM on February 25, 2009
This is incredibly dumb. Just dumb. It is fraud. I usually say this is not legal advice, etc. But this is dumb. I'm not your lawyer, but don't do this.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:31 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 1:31 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
They do this in the suburbs of Boston kind of frequently. Inner city families will state residency in the suburbs in order to attend the school system there. They usually do it with a relative. Will the Board of Education investigate? Possibly. My town didn't pursue it until recent budgetary issues forced them to really weed out the non-resident students and even still, there are kids here that shouldn't be here. The kids got kicked out of the school system, I don't know what, if anything, happens to person pretending that the kids live at the address.
You have to give some hard thought to what this arrangement is asking of you and what you'd be gaining in exchange. You'd be an accomplice in fraud - granted not on the Bernie Madoff scale of fraud, but fraud none the less. And what you'd be subject to if the arrangement was ever exposed... well, that's going to vary by jurisdiction.
A quick Google search got me 1, 2 (from 1992), 3 (seems sort of like the affidavit you might be part of. Read the bold parts) and 4 (the NY State Education Law enrollment policy).
To me, probably not worth the slim chance of being found out.
posted by jerseygirl at 1:32 PM on February 25, 2009
You have to give some hard thought to what this arrangement is asking of you and what you'd be gaining in exchange. You'd be an accomplice in fraud - granted not on the Bernie Madoff scale of fraud, but fraud none the less. And what you'd be subject to if the arrangement was ever exposed... well, that's going to vary by jurisdiction.
A quick Google search got me 1, 2 (from 1992), 3 (seems sort of like the affidavit you might be part of. Read the bold parts) and 4 (the NY State Education Law enrollment policy).
To me, probably not worth the slim chance of being found out.
posted by jerseygirl at 1:32 PM on February 25, 2009
dude anyone that says General rule for living: Don't participate in any kind of fraud. DOES NOT LIVE IN NYC.
For serious. If you're one of the lucky Manhattanites who gets paid enough to live alone or has an excellent roommate, you can live a renter's life of probity and caution. But the rest of us are rooming with drama queens, neurotics, and out-of-work actors.
posted by Hwaet at 1:33 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
For serious. If you're one of the lucky Manhattanites who gets paid enough to live alone or has an excellent roommate, you can live a renter's life of probity and caution. But the rest of us are rooming with drama queens, neurotics, and out-of-work actors.
posted by Hwaet at 1:33 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
While calculating your risk/reward ratio, don't neglect to factor in the hidden costs. Specifically, what, if any, loss of esteem you'll suffer in the eyes of yourself or others for committing fraud that will ultimately victimize a schoolchild.
You know... the one who will have to endure a larger class size, or even lose their own rightful place, to benefit this woman's kid.
posted by Joe Beese at 1:37 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
You know... the one who will have to endure a larger class size, or even lose their own rightful place, to benefit this woman's kid.
posted by Joe Beese at 1:37 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
I would do it. This woman is willing and able to pay what it would cost to live in your apartment, she doesn't want to actually live there. Her and (probably) her son have a strong incentive to be discreet, and if we're talking about a public school then the school isn't going to have the resources to either investigate the situation or pursue action against you if the fraud is discovered. Worst case scenario is the school finding out and expelling the kid back to his home district, probably.
The red flag for me is the utility bill in her name. Is there any way in which someone having a utility in their name for your address would allow someone to take advantage of you or compromise your finances or security? If so, you need to be damn sure you trust the woman making the offer.
posted by chudmonkey at 1:45 PM on February 25, 2009
The red flag for me is the utility bill in her name. Is there any way in which someone having a utility in their name for your address would allow someone to take advantage of you or compromise your finances or security? If so, you need to be damn sure you trust the woman making the offer.
posted by chudmonkey at 1:45 PM on February 25, 2009
Honestly. I don't get a good sense from this. Not for a moral or ethical qualm, but in my view, something that SEEMS to good to be true, is. I feel like so many people could use these same justifications for any number of scams. Now, true, you are not being asked to give anyone money, but all the same I don't get a good feeling about it.
And I lived in NYC supporting myself through 2 levels of education on my own dime without having to participate in anything this weird, tyvm.
On the other hand, if you insist on pursuing this route, get and verify A LOT of references.
posted by bunnycup at 1:49 PM on February 25, 2009
And I lived in NYC supporting myself through 2 levels of education on my own dime without having to participate in anything this weird, tyvm.
On the other hand, if you insist on pursuing this route, get and verify A LOT of references.
posted by bunnycup at 1:49 PM on February 25, 2009
that will ultimately victimize a schoolchild
You can't possibly know this without far more details about the relative merits of the school she wants versus the school she'd otherwise get, their roll sizes, etc.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 1:54 PM on February 25, 2009
You can't possibly know this without far more details about the relative merits of the school she wants versus the school she'd otherwise get, their roll sizes, etc.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 1:54 PM on February 25, 2009
If you decide to go through with it, and you're allowed to sublet, and you have a rental agreement and pay taxes on what she pays you, I'm not sure that it's the clear cut fraud everyone above is making it out to be.
As to the utility bill, let her order and maintain a separate phone line in her own name.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on February 25, 2009
As to the utility bill, let her order and maintain a separate phone line in her own name.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on February 25, 2009
Do it, but only on condition that she (and her son?) do in fact live there at the time you need to swear to it. She sleeps there for the week or two it takes to process all of this, you sign the form, then she goes back to wherever it is she wants to live.
That's fraud, too.
posted by jayder at 1:56 PM on February 25, 2009
That's fraud, too.
posted by jayder at 1:56 PM on February 25, 2009
seems sort of like the affidavit you might be part of. Read the bold parts.
As mentioned above, Boston and area schools have been cracking down on this fraud for the past few years. Especially suburban kids who want to attend the prestigious city school, Boston Latin.
posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
8. I know that the District will bring a legal action against me under the New York State Education Law for fraud for the costs of educating a non-resident child, even if that child is not mine, if my misrepresentation(s) help to establish that child's false in District residence.If there is any language like that, I'd pass on the deal.
9. I will reimburse the District for the costs of educating a non-resident student incurred as a result of any misrepresentation(s) by me.
As mentioned above, Boston and area schools have been cracking down on this fraud for the past few years. Especially suburban kids who want to attend the prestigious city school, Boston Latin.
posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
ok, to speak up again. My point is, no one normal can afford good private schools for their kids, so this kind of "fraud" to get your kids into a good school, is exactly the kind of thing that a good parent would do for their kid.
I did not mean to advocate all kinds of weird frauds. But I'm saying this is what normal people in NYC do to get by.
posted by alkupe at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
I did not mean to advocate all kinds of weird frauds. But I'm saying this is what normal people in NYC do to get by.
posted by alkupe at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
One of my coworkers lives on the edge of an area with not-so great schools (Richmond, CA) which is next to an area with terrific schools (Albany) that are just blocks away from home. She has a niece who lives in Albany and who has allowed her to list that as her residence on school paperwork so her son can go to a better school.
Is that a terrible thing? I don't know. I had the benefit of a pre-Proposition 13 education here in California and so had things like music and art and P.E. and languages and even Driver's Ed (ahh Blood on the Highway, anyone?).
Now, in order to get her son into a safe, well-regarded school without paying private school tuition that she can't afford, my friend has to commit fraud. I'm not a parent, but if I were, I might be tempted to do the same. She cannot afford to move, the home she lives is a family home purchased long ago and houses/condos/apartments in Albany (even after the meltdown) are outrageously expensive.
By the way, at one point the school VP (if I remember correctly) did stop by the house when the niece's new boyfriend was there who was not in on the fraud and therefore, didn't respond "correctly" to questions and some drama ensued...but it was about my friend's child getting kicked-out of school--there were no repercussions for the niece. Fortunately, it was somehow arranged for the child to stay in the better school.
posted by agatha_magatha at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
Is that a terrible thing? I don't know. I had the benefit of a pre-Proposition 13 education here in California and so had things like music and art and P.E. and languages and even Driver's Ed (ahh Blood on the Highway, anyone?).
Now, in order to get her son into a safe, well-regarded school without paying private school tuition that she can't afford, my friend has to commit fraud. I'm not a parent, but if I were, I might be tempted to do the same. She cannot afford to move, the home she lives is a family home purchased long ago and houses/condos/apartments in Albany (even after the meltdown) are outrageously expensive.
By the way, at one point the school VP (if I remember correctly) did stop by the house when the niece's new boyfriend was there who was not in on the fraud and therefore, didn't respond "correctly" to questions and some drama ensued...but it was about my friend's child getting kicked-out of school--there were no repercussions for the niece. Fortunately, it was somehow arranged for the child to stay in the better school.
posted by agatha_magatha at 1:57 PM on February 25, 2009
General rule for living: Don't participate in any kind of fraud.
Corollary rule for living:
Don't get involved in any scheme that you would be worried to admit to people with badges if they came to your door to question you about it.
posted by jayder at 1:59 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
Corollary rule for living:
Don't get involved in any scheme that you would be worried to admit to people with badges if they came to your door to question you about it.
posted by jayder at 1:59 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
This kind of scam is a dime a dozen in nyc. Do it, and do it now before they find someone else.
Question #1 for the OP:
Question #1 for the OP:
Are you willing and prepared to face all of the consequences in the possible event that the mother/child are caught and you are a party to the fraud?posted by ericb at 2:01 PM on February 25, 2009
It's the affidavit that would give me pause. I have friends whose roommates pay their share of rent to keep the place as a home base, but don't appear more than a couple times a year. (The life of working, aka touring, actors). No problem--they pay the rent, it's their business how often they're there.
But they don't have to go on record swearing to something that isn't true. That's the dodgy part.
posted by lampoil at 2:02 PM on February 25, 2009
But they don't have to go on record swearing to something that isn't true. That's the dodgy part.
posted by lampoil at 2:02 PM on February 25, 2009
You can't possibly know this without far more details...
Unless they're going to hire an additional teacher - which seems pretty unlikely given the economics of the NYC public school system - I see only two possibiities:
1. A kid who legitimately lives in that district gets denied the desk that will be occupied by Cheater's Kid.
2. A kid who legitimately lives in that district has what is probably already an overlarge class made even larger by the addition of Cheater's Kid.
And what of the Cheater's Kid themself? In addition to whatever lessons they learn in the better school district, you can throw in: "The way to get what I want is to lie to people and trick them."
Let me hasten to add that I'm not holding myself up as any kind of role model. I've cut plenty of ethical corners in my time. Hell, I'm cutting one right now by posting this from work. But let's not pretend that what's being proposed here is anything other than the kind of "fuck you, I've got mine" fraud that people are rightly pissed off about in threads like this one.
posted by Joe Beese at 2:08 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Unless they're going to hire an additional teacher - which seems pretty unlikely given the economics of the NYC public school system - I see only two possibiities:
1. A kid who legitimately lives in that district gets denied the desk that will be occupied by Cheater's Kid.
2. A kid who legitimately lives in that district has what is probably already an overlarge class made even larger by the addition of Cheater's Kid.
And what of the Cheater's Kid themself? In addition to whatever lessons they learn in the better school district, you can throw in: "The way to get what I want is to lie to people and trick them."
Let me hasten to add that I'm not holding myself up as any kind of role model. I've cut plenty of ethical corners in my time. Hell, I'm cutting one right now by posting this from work. But let's not pretend that what's being proposed here is anything other than the kind of "fuck you, I've got mine" fraud that people are rightly pissed off about in threads like this one.
posted by Joe Beese at 2:08 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Woman arrested in school scam appears in court.
(local news story.) I do not know if the grandmother (from whose house the kids got on the bus) received any sort of punishment.
posted by Lucinda at 2:09 PM on February 25, 2009
(local news story.) I do not know if the grandmother (from whose house the kids got on the bus) received any sort of punishment.
posted by Lucinda at 2:09 PM on February 25, 2009
I'm voting a big NO against this!
Not only is it fraud, but what if she, say, takes out a credit card app with your address on it and you get stuck with the bills? Maybe that's not a feasible con, but it seems to me that having your name authorizing anything that says she lives where you do could end up making you responsible for all kinds of trouble.
Plus, as a woman, I'm feeling more cynical about this whole thing than you are, with your charitable disposition. I love that you want to help, but lots of guys have protective instincts toward a "damsel in distress", and there's definitely women who'll take advantage of that. From your question, you could be a woman, too, of course, no way to tell, but I recommend that you err on the side of caution in case you are being set up for a con.
Incidentally, have you met the kid? Are you absolutely sure there is one? It may seem feasible to everyone here because it does sometimes happen--but that just makes for a better con.
posted by misha at 2:11 PM on February 25, 2009
Not only is it fraud, but what if she, say, takes out a credit card app with your address on it and you get stuck with the bills? Maybe that's not a feasible con, but it seems to me that having your name authorizing anything that says she lives where you do could end up making you responsible for all kinds of trouble.
Plus, as a woman, I'm feeling more cynical about this whole thing than you are, with your charitable disposition. I love that you want to help, but lots of guys have protective instincts toward a "damsel in distress", and there's definitely women who'll take advantage of that. From your question, you could be a woman, too, of course, no way to tell, but I recommend that you err on the side of caution in case you are being set up for a con.
Incidentally, have you met the kid? Are you absolutely sure there is one? It may seem feasible to everyone here because it does sometimes happen--but that just makes for a better con.
posted by misha at 2:11 PM on February 25, 2009
I would say go for it. As long as she's paying rent then technically the room is hers even if she never uses it. You can add her to the lease and as far as a utility she can get a phone line turned on in the room. That will be in her name and doesn't offer up any of your personal info. If she's on the lease, you may not need to get a notorized letter.
posted by aquariangirl06 at 2:29 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by aquariangirl06 at 2:29 PM on February 25, 2009
It's a bad idea.
posted by snowjoe at 2:30 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by snowjoe at 2:30 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Worst case, you could lose your lease, but I've never heard of that happening and I've lived in NYC for 43 years and have seen it done a few times. Are you stabilized?
posted by nicwolff at 2:36 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by nicwolff at 2:36 PM on February 25, 2009
The last time got into a discussion about this here I was accused of eating babies because I had the gall to suggest that Philadelphia residents who lie about where they live and commit fraud so that their kids can go to the 1000X better school district in my township are stealing and deserve to be investigated, prosecuted and punished. I still stand by that opinion, BTW.
This appears to be all within NYC so I suppose a somewhat lame argument can be made that it merely shifts the burden around, but that it all remains in NYC. One district has one less pupil, one district has one more pupil.
Oh and 'everybody does it' really sucks ass as a justification.
Put me in the 'don't commit fraud' camp.
posted by fixedgear at 2:41 PM on February 25, 2009
This appears to be all within NYC so I suppose a somewhat lame argument can be made that it merely shifts the burden around, but that it all remains in NYC. One district has one less pupil, one district has one more pupil.
Oh and 'everybody does it' really sucks ass as a justification.
Put me in the 'don't commit fraud' camp.
posted by fixedgear at 2:41 PM on February 25, 2009
The ironic thing about NYC public school is that sending your kid to a decent one may require a lot of money to pay the higher rents found in that school district (see, e.g., in Park Slope, particularly the inside P.S. 321's boundaries).
So this woman can't or won't pay for a full-sized apartment in your school zone; she's only asking to rent a room, which I presume is too small for her and her kid to live in -- and in any case, she has already said she does not intend to live there. That is unfair to the families who have paid the extra rent to live legitimately in the higher-rent school zone. In my son's brooklyn pre-k class, I know a family that lied about where they lived so their son could get in. They either bumped another kid off the roster -- unfair to that bumped kid -- or increased the class size by one -- unfair to everyone else in that class.
There may be other factors in your decision -- this woman may have the money to pay rents in your district, but just can't find an apartment (very possible), everyone does it, free money, etc. -- but if it were me, I'd turn her down because NYC schools are set up to handle the kids actually living in that district, not kids whose parents have merely leased a closet in someone else's apartment there. Try to game that system, and it's fraud. Maybe also perjury. And people will get hurt. Hurt in a very small way, and hurt in a way that might be less than the harm in that lady's kid going to a worse school, but still hurt.
posted by hhc5 at 2:44 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
So this woman can't or won't pay for a full-sized apartment in your school zone; she's only asking to rent a room, which I presume is too small for her and her kid to live in -- and in any case, she has already said she does not intend to live there. That is unfair to the families who have paid the extra rent to live legitimately in the higher-rent school zone. In my son's brooklyn pre-k class, I know a family that lied about where they lived so their son could get in. They either bumped another kid off the roster -- unfair to that bumped kid -- or increased the class size by one -- unfair to everyone else in that class.
There may be other factors in your decision -- this woman may have the money to pay rents in your district, but just can't find an apartment (very possible), everyone does it, free money, etc. -- but if it were me, I'd turn her down because NYC schools are set up to handle the kids actually living in that district, not kids whose parents have merely leased a closet in someone else's apartment there. Try to game that system, and it's fraud. Maybe also perjury. And people will get hurt. Hurt in a very small way, and hurt in a way that might be less than the harm in that lady's kid going to a worse school, but still hurt.
posted by hhc5 at 2:44 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Echoing Hwaet's sentiment above, and then some:
If you're one of the lucky Manhattanites who gets paid enough to live alone or has an excellent roommate, you can live a renter's life of probity and caution. But the rest of us are rooming with drama queens, neurotics, and out-of-work actors.
I used to live with 3 out-of-work actor roommates. Besides them yelling at the TV during American Idol (separately, so I got to hear it 3 times a day, thanks Tivo), it wasn't that bad. NYC housing situations get much, much worse.
A DOE investigation followed by a lawsuit is certainly a risk. But the OP not taking the deal isn't exactly risk free. The risks of renting out a room range from your roommate not ever doing the dishes, to their obnoxious SO moving in, to them never paying rent on time, to them bringing bedbugs into the apartment, to them disappearing one day with all your shit and five credit cards in your name...
Not saying I'd go for this myself, but the OP certainly isn't crazy for considering it.
posted by a young man in spats at 2:52 PM on February 25, 2009
If you're one of the lucky Manhattanites who gets paid enough to live alone or has an excellent roommate, you can live a renter's life of probity and caution. But the rest of us are rooming with drama queens, neurotics, and out-of-work actors.
I used to live with 3 out-of-work actor roommates. Besides them yelling at the TV during American Idol (separately, so I got to hear it 3 times a day, thanks Tivo), it wasn't that bad. NYC housing situations get much, much worse.
A DOE investigation followed by a lawsuit is certainly a risk. But the OP not taking the deal isn't exactly risk free. The risks of renting out a room range from your roommate not ever doing the dishes, to their obnoxious SO moving in, to them never paying rent on time, to them bringing bedbugs into the apartment, to them disappearing one day with all your shit and five credit cards in your name...
Not saying I'd go for this myself, but the OP certainly isn't crazy for considering it.
posted by a young man in spats at 2:52 PM on February 25, 2009
Should the thing blow up, she can play the " I only did it for my baby !" card, whereas you only did it for the money.
posted by lobstah at 2:53 PM on February 25, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by lobstah at 2:53 PM on February 25, 2009 [5 favorites]
Just in case it's relevant - when we bought our house in Long Island, the local water company tried to charge an outrageous amount to change the previous owner's name to our own. It was something like $70 for the privilege of a few key strokes in some distant office & we were fed up with fees at the time, so our water bill remains in the previous owner's name. (Not a problem in any way.)
(I was thinking, should you do this thing you're being advised not to do:) -
maybe check any charges you might have to pay to change the names back again?)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 2:54 PM on February 25, 2009
(I was thinking, should you do this thing you're being advised not to do:) -
maybe check any charges you might have to pay to change the names back again?)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 2:54 PM on February 25, 2009
i'm in the camp that says it's not so clear that it's clear-cut fraud. the woman is paying you rent for a room. how often she stays there is irrelevant, no? i would love to have someone who told me they wanted to rent my spare room and then was never there. i mean, if there was no back story with the kid going to school, would you question it? you'd would just have a phantom roommate, and you'd essentially get to live alone without paying the entire rent yourself. i might have a different answer if she wasn't paying you rent and asked you to vouch that she was living there; or if she was paying you for the room and then you rented it out to a second person. but as far as i'm concerned, here is a person who wants to rent your room, end of story. doesn't matter if she stays there all the time or none of the time.
posted by violetk at 2:55 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by violetk at 2:55 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
I am undecided as to whether it's a good idea on a practical level to do this. There are obviously both risks and benefits.
I do, however, believe that there's no reason that this child doesn't deserve to go to a better school. Children shouldn't earn the right to a quality education based on how much money their parents are willing and able to scrape together. It's ridiculous that the quality of a child's education is based on how much real estate her/his parents invest in. This may be fraud, but there's no reason that a kid who lives in the district "deserves" a seat in this particular classroom more than a kid who wasn't lucky enough to win the parenthood lottery.
And even if you do believe the argument that a child's worth is based on the parents' contribution to the local tax base, this parent is paying taxes by paying rent to a landlord who pays taxes in the district. The fact that the child sleeps at night in a bed two towns over shouldn't matter once the parent has paid the requisite tribute to "buy" the child's right to a quality education.
This may be a bad idea, and it may be unethical to lie on a sworn legal document, but it's not unethical to help a child gain access to a public service s/he otherwise wouldn't have access to for no other reason than luck of the draw.
posted by decathecting at 3:01 PM on February 25, 2009 [4 favorites]
I do, however, believe that there's no reason that this child doesn't deserve to go to a better school. Children shouldn't earn the right to a quality education based on how much money their parents are willing and able to scrape together. It's ridiculous that the quality of a child's education is based on how much real estate her/his parents invest in. This may be fraud, but there's no reason that a kid who lives in the district "deserves" a seat in this particular classroom more than a kid who wasn't lucky enough to win the parenthood lottery.
And even if you do believe the argument that a child's worth is based on the parents' contribution to the local tax base, this parent is paying taxes by paying rent to a landlord who pays taxes in the district. The fact that the child sleeps at night in a bed two towns over shouldn't matter once the parent has paid the requisite tribute to "buy" the child's right to a quality education.
This may be a bad idea, and it may be unethical to lie on a sworn legal document, but it's not unethical to help a child gain access to a public service s/he otherwise wouldn't have access to for no other reason than luck of the draw.
posted by decathecting at 3:01 PM on February 25, 2009 [4 favorites]
I've never heard of A Better Chance but a quick glance at the web site suggests that they are compensating the school districts in question. I also don't live on the 'Main Line' but rather in a first ring suburb that shares a border with the city. Thanks for commenting, though.
posted by fixedgear at 3:04 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by fixedgear at 3:04 PM on February 25, 2009
the woman is paying you rent for a room. how often she stays there is irrelevant, no?
Seems like the BoE would have its own opinion about that. And there would be nothing unethical about asking them what it is.
Of course, one might be concerned about arousing suspicion. Or just feel scummy asking for their help in gaming the system. But then perhaps those are hints that perhaps it would be better to seek unearned money playing the Lotto instead.
posted by Joe Beese at 3:05 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seems like the BoE would have its own opinion about that. And there would be nothing unethical about asking them what it is.
Of course, one might be concerned about arousing suspicion. Or just feel scummy asking for their help in gaming the system. But then perhaps those are hints that perhaps it would be better to seek unearned money playing the Lotto instead.
posted by Joe Beese at 3:05 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration,
DO NOT WANT.
You're signing a legal document knowing it's not true. That is fraud. It may never come back to bit you on the arse. Letting a friend run a growop in your spare bedroom may never come back to bite you either, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
posted by rodgerd at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2009 [4 favorites]
DO NOT WANT.
You're signing a legal document knowing it's not true. That is fraud. It may never come back to bit you on the arse. Letting a friend run a growop in your spare bedroom may never come back to bite you either, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
posted by rodgerd at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2009 [4 favorites]
Fraud carries the connotation of willful abrogation of some sort of good social policy, and because I'm heavily inclined to believe that school-by-address is fundamentally flawed—as is, in some parts, funding the school system with surrounding property taxes—I'm not at all hesitant to say this is fraud worth committing.
She's not asking you to sell drugs; she's asking for your address for the express end of getting her child into a better school.
posted by trotter at 3:30 PM on February 25, 2009
She's not asking you to sell drugs; she's asking for your address for the express end of getting her child into a better school.
posted by trotter at 3:30 PM on February 25, 2009
In response to rodgerd
That is fraud. It may never come back to bit you on the arse. Letting a friend run a growop in your spare bedroom may never come back to bite you either, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Irrelevant conclusion.
posted by trotter at 3:36 PM on February 25, 2009
That is fraud. It may never come back to bit you on the arse. Letting a friend run a growop in your spare bedroom may never come back to bite you either, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Irrelevant conclusion.
posted by trotter at 3:36 PM on February 25, 2009
Worst case, you could lose your lease...
...and be charged with fraud and responsible for any applicable punishment for such.
posted by ericb at 3:43 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
...and be charged with fraud and responsible for any applicable punishment for such.
posted by ericb at 3:43 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
She's renting the space from you. As long as she isn't doing anything in that space that bothers you, why do you care about her reasons for renting? My girlfriend rents an apartment across town but hasn't slept there in 2 months. She pays rents, has her name on the bills but doesn't really live there. What's it to you? Also, if this lady wants to pay your phone bill, awesome.
Who's to say that she doesn't lives far from your apartment and wants a place to crash when she's in the neighborhood once every month or so?
Do it.
posted by ASM at 3:47 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Who's to say that she doesn't lives far from your apartment and wants a place to crash when she's in the neighborhood once every month or so?
Do it.
posted by ASM at 3:47 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
I would say go for it. As long as she's paying rent then technically the room is hers even if she never uses it.
Technically you are right, but the residency of the child is determined by where the student (not the parent) "lives" (i.e. is domiciled). The rent/mortgage/ownership of an alternate, non-domiciled residence in order to qualify your child for school attendance will be seen as fraudulent.
posted by ericb at 3:50 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
Technically you are right, but the residency of the child is determined by where the student (not the parent) "lives" (i.e. is domiciled). The rent/mortgage/ownership of an alternate, non-domiciled residence in order to qualify your child for school attendance will be seen as fraudulent.
posted by ericb at 3:50 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
As long as she isn't doing anything in that space that bothers you, why do you care about her reasons for renting?
The OP states: "I'll need to put a utility bill in her name, sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration, and present a copy of my lease."
As has been pointed out above, signing a notarized statement has serious consequences.
As I think more about this, misha may indeed be onto something. This could be a set-up for a con.
Is there anyone here on MetaTalk who will provide me personal information, get me signed-up as a legal resident of your domicile and sign a notarized statement to prove such is true and accurate.
Oh, BTW -- my first-month's rent is "in the mail." You should get it a couple days after we leave the notary.
posted by ericb at 3:59 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
The OP states: "I'll need to put a utility bill in her name, sign a notarized form saying that she was living here at the time of the school registration, and present a copy of my lease."
As has been pointed out above, signing a notarized statement has serious consequences.
As I think more about this, misha may indeed be onto something. This could be a set-up for a con.
Is there anyone here on MetaTalk who will provide me personal information, get me signed-up as a legal resident of your domicile and sign a notarized statement to prove such is true and accurate.
Oh, BTW -- my first-month's rent is "in the mail." You should get it a couple days after we leave the notary.
posted by ericb at 3:59 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
S 210.10 - Perjury in the second degree.
A person is guilty of perjury in the second degree when he swears
falsely and when his false statement is (a) made in a subscribed written
instrument for which an oath is required by law, and (b) made with
intent to mislead a public servant in the performance of his official
functions, and (c) material to the action, proceeding or matter
involved.
Perjury in the second degree is a class E felony.
----
"We are in NYS and my husband was found guilty of a class E felony. he has no prior and was given 1 1/3 to 3. Isn't that extreme?"
posted by Joe Beese at 4:08 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
A person is guilty of perjury in the second degree when he swears
falsely and when his false statement is (a) made in a subscribed written
instrument for which an oath is required by law, and (b) made with
intent to mislead a public servant in the performance of his official
functions, and (c) material to the action, proceeding or matter
involved.
Perjury in the second degree is a class E felony.
----
"We are in NYS and my husband was found guilty of a class E felony. he has no prior and was given 1 1/3 to 3. Isn't that extreme?"
posted by Joe Beese at 4:08 PM on February 25, 2009 [3 favorites]
You know, I would do this only for someone I knew, and knew well. But then I wouldn't allow them to pay rent either since that's not what friends do. But doing this at all for some random person off the street mixed with the bill in her name and a false notarized document? Oh HELL no.
posted by barc0001 at 4:37 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by barc0001 at 4:37 PM on February 25, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm uncomfortable with the proposition she is making and I used to live in manhattan. utility bills in her name? what if she doesn't pay them? what if she shuts them off? what if there is an issue and she won't respond? what if there is another reason you haven't considered? I see enough potential for uncertainty to not do it based on that alone and I haven't even gotten to the drawbacks of getting caught fraudulently signing a notarized form.
you don't know getting into a school is the real reason, it just sounds like something that goes on in nyc and assume she's telling the truth. assume that she is a fraudster for a moment and that she needs to gain your trust - wouldn't she use a reason like this because she'd know you'd be told that yes, this was in fact happening in nyc?
this is a person willing to commit fraud. what on earth makes you assume you're not her real target? because she said so? because she's a nice lady?
if you really want to go through with this tell her to pay six month's rent upfront on top of the deposit and you'll find out in a second whether she's a huckster.
there's a lot of derail and noise in this thread - shame on those commenters. Please limit comments to answers or help in finding an answer, anyone?
posted by krautland at 5:06 PM on February 25, 2009
you don't know getting into a school is the real reason, it just sounds like something that goes on in nyc and assume she's telling the truth. assume that she is a fraudster for a moment and that she needs to gain your trust - wouldn't she use a reason like this because she'd know you'd be told that yes, this was in fact happening in nyc?
this is a person willing to commit fraud. what on earth makes you assume you're not her real target? because she said so? because she's a nice lady?
if you really want to go through with this tell her to pay six month's rent upfront on top of the deposit and you'll find out in a second whether she's a huckster.
there's a lot of derail and noise in this thread - shame on those commenters. Please limit comments to answers or help in finding an answer, anyone?
posted by krautland at 5:06 PM on February 25, 2009
Mod note: bunch of comments removed - don't like the question or the answers, go directly to metatalk, thank you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:31 PM on February 25, 2009
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:31 PM on February 25, 2009
2nding Methylviolet that the family could very easily live in your apartment during registration time, and consider the room a second home for the family.
In NYC, many people own or lease multiple homes or pied-a-terres. I've had more than one friend who took their driving tests, and then insured their cars in the state of their family's second home. Your apartment could very well the family's summer home where they live and register for school. From your post, it sound like the Department of Ed doesn't really care how much of the year one lives in district as long as they reside in district at school registration time.
posted by abirae at 5:33 PM on February 25, 2009
In NYC, many people own or lease multiple homes or pied-a-terres. I've had more than one friend who took their driving tests, and then insured their cars in the state of their family's second home. Your apartment could very well the family's summer home where they live and register for school. From your post, it sound like the Department of Ed doesn't really care how much of the year one lives in district as long as they reside in district at school registration time.
posted by abirae at 5:33 PM on February 25, 2009
How likely is it that the Board of Ed. will snoop around and find out about our arrangement?
I moved to Manhattan while my daughter was finishing up fifth grade in Brooklyn. Getting caught by the board of ed feels incredibly remote. They seemed very sleepy as long as you had the proper documents. We ended up having to get a letter from our landlord, in addition to our other documents. But, if we were unable to supply that, I suspect there would have been no investigation or kicking in doors or anything.
One thing you might be interested in. In NYC, if your child starts at an elementary or middle school and then moves to another borough, the child can continue at the initial school until the terminal grade. Meaning you wouldn't have to do it for 3 years.
With that said, I would not do it. Let her sacrifice and live all cramped up and ready to strangle each other like we do so we can send our child to a great school.
posted by milarepa at 5:51 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
I moved to Manhattan while my daughter was finishing up fifth grade in Brooklyn. Getting caught by the board of ed feels incredibly remote. They seemed very sleepy as long as you had the proper documents. We ended up having to get a letter from our landlord, in addition to our other documents. But, if we were unable to supply that, I suspect there would have been no investigation or kicking in doors or anything.
One thing you might be interested in. In NYC, if your child starts at an elementary or middle school and then moves to another borough, the child can continue at the initial school until the terminal grade. Meaning you wouldn't have to do it for 3 years.
With that said, I would not do it. Let her sacrifice and live all cramped up and ready to strangle each other like we do so we can send our child to a great school.
posted by milarepa at 5:51 PM on February 25, 2009 [2 favorites]
Being a beneficiary of one of the prestige NYC public schools, I can say that I knew kids whose parents had made this exact deal with someone (usually a grandparent or aunt/uncle) to get their kids into my public school. Neither I or my sibling were ever "bumped" from magnet schools or any gifted programs because of these kids. I was never "victimized" by the parents of these kids. All of the ones that I knew of made it through school and benefited from the education by continuing to go to magnet schools.
To the OP: I'd ask to meet the kid to make sure that s/he actually exists and have the parent open a new phone line in their name to minimize scam potential. But other than that, this is something that happens all the time in good school districts and it's up to you to decide whether you feel that the money is worth the potential consequences.
posted by blueskiesinside at 5:53 PM on February 25, 2009
To the OP: I'd ask to meet the kid to make sure that s/he actually exists and have the parent open a new phone line in their name to minimize scam potential. But other than that, this is something that happens all the time in good school districts and it's up to you to decide whether you feel that the money is worth the potential consequences.
posted by blueskiesinside at 5:53 PM on February 25, 2009
Mod note: if you are not answering the question you need to go to email or metatalk, sorry.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:36 PM on February 26, 2009
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:36 PM on February 26, 2009
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In the present case, the utility bill and notarized form could present rather large legal headaches down the road. Don't even bother getting a lawyer, just say no.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 12:52 PM on February 25, 2009 [12 favorites]