American trying to get into OxBridge for an M.Phil
February 18, 2009 4:02 PM Subscribe
I'm a junior considering getting an M.Phil at Oxford or Cambridge before going to law school. Any advice?
I'm an econ and philosophy double-major at an Ivy (for whatever it's worth), but I haven't done much high level math, so I would probably be focusing on something more philosophical. My GPA is a 3.95. Ethics is a good sub-field, epistemology/analytic philosophy is another possibility.
I think I may be screwed however since I haven't published anything or developed any extensive ties with faculty. I'll try to get to know my professors better over the course of this semester.
How hard is it to get into one of the M.Phil programs. How much do they cost? How difficult are they? What is the application process? What are some general fields within politics/ethics/political economy that are worth considering?
Any advice on getting in would be greatly appreciated.
I'm an econ and philosophy double-major at an Ivy (for whatever it's worth), but I haven't done much high level math, so I would probably be focusing on something more philosophical. My GPA is a 3.95. Ethics is a good sub-field, epistemology/analytic philosophy is another possibility.
I think I may be screwed however since I haven't published anything or developed any extensive ties with faculty. I'll try to get to know my professors better over the course of this semester.
How hard is it to get into one of the M.Phil programs. How much do they cost? How difficult are they? What is the application process? What are some general fields within politics/ethics/political economy that are worth considering?
Any advice on getting in would be greatly appreciated.
Why do this before law school? Why not just go to law school -- or are you unsure about that path?
posted by lockestockbarrel at 4:42 PM on February 18, 2009
posted by lockestockbarrel at 4:42 PM on February 18, 2009
Sorry if my answer does not directly address your questions questions about getting in but I hope my answer stays since I'm responding to your call for "any advice."
M.Phil from either school doesn't carry much weight in US higher ed system. If you want to do it for the experience, that's one thing, but it won't add much to your career opportunities or general education level. I speak frankly from within inside the US academy, and with extensive experience at an Ivy, sorry if I offend. It's seen as a vanity degree.
MPhil grads coming into social science or humanities phd programs are no better prepared, perhaps less in some ways than the other students, but they had the money or anglophilia to see their plan through. That's been my experience.
What it means for law school I can't say, but my hunch is that it means you're adding debt to an already enormous mountain of debt for a degree that will impress fewer law professionals than you think.
JD and MPhil are really different degrees. Having been a young aimless undergrad myself I think you'd benefit from a talk with a professor, career center counselor or someone else who's been there to see what you're getting yourself into, and to probe really why you want to combine these two paths. My sense is that there are cheaper and more stimulating ways to go to the UK.
posted by vincele at 4:50 PM on February 18, 2009
M.Phil from either school doesn't carry much weight in US higher ed system. If you want to do it for the experience, that's one thing, but it won't add much to your career opportunities or general education level. I speak frankly from within inside the US academy, and with extensive experience at an Ivy, sorry if I offend. It's seen as a vanity degree.
MPhil grads coming into social science or humanities phd programs are no better prepared, perhaps less in some ways than the other students, but they had the money or anglophilia to see their plan through. That's been my experience.
What it means for law school I can't say, but my hunch is that it means you're adding debt to an already enormous mountain of debt for a degree that will impress fewer law professionals than you think.
JD and MPhil are really different degrees. Having been a young aimless undergrad myself I think you'd benefit from a talk with a professor, career center counselor or someone else who's been there to see what you're getting yourself into, and to probe really why you want to combine these two paths. My sense is that there are cheaper and more stimulating ways to go to the UK.
posted by vincele at 4:50 PM on February 18, 2009
I did my PhD in Cambridge. During several years there I knew many MPhil students. At best, the Oxbridge MPhil can be good preparation for an Oxbridge PhD and a slightly sneaky way of extending it to an extra year. At worst, it is a way that the university can extract enormous fees (up to £15,525 for the MPhil in Economics) from gullible overseas students so that the funds can be spent in areas the university actually cares about.
As for the experience, many people had a grand old time, but that doesn't make it a good way to spend your time. I was pretty unimpressed by the cultural development that people on "one-year courses" got in what was usually just a 26-week period of lectures punctuated by frequent Ryanair flights to see Europe. If you want to immerse yourself in another culture, there are better ways to do it.
Why do you want to do an MPhil?
If the answer is not "because I want to do an Oxbridge PhD in the same subject" (and doing that plus law school is ludicrous), then you might want to reconsider.
posted by grouse at 6:01 PM on February 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
As for the experience, many people had a grand old time, but that doesn't make it a good way to spend your time. I was pretty unimpressed by the cultural development that people on "one-year courses" got in what was usually just a 26-week period of lectures punctuated by frequent Ryanair flights to see Europe. If you want to immerse yourself in another culture, there are better ways to do it.
Why do you want to do an MPhil?
If the answer is not "because I want to do an Oxbridge PhD in the same subject" (and doing that plus law school is ludicrous), then you might want to reconsider.
posted by grouse at 6:01 PM on February 18, 2009 [1 favorite]
How hard is it to get into one of the M.Phil programs. How much do they cost?
It's not that hard to get in - I was accepted, and I certainly have never published any papers. As an international you will pay through the nose; I estimated nearly six figures (Cdn) for a two year MPhil if I'd stayed on. I don't know about Cambridge, but Oxford Uni will probably not give you much/any money. Apply to the colleges which could potentially give you the most money (probably Balliol and Lincoln) - have a look at this table for which colleges offer scholarships or bursaries that you might be eligible for.
In the Classics department at Oxford (Econ may be different, I don't know), I don't think they take any DPhils straight out of an undergraduate degree. You either do an MPhil or an MSt first; I suspect Cambridge is the same. So if you want to go on to do an Oxbridge DPhil you will need the MPhil/MSt. However, otherwise I think it is a bit of a vanity degree, especially for internationals.
On the other time, Oxbridge can be tremendous fun. I you have the money and can get in, no reason not to I suppose.
posted by iona at 6:45 PM on February 18, 2009
It's not that hard to get in - I was accepted, and I certainly have never published any papers. As an international you will pay through the nose; I estimated nearly six figures (Cdn) for a two year MPhil if I'd stayed on. I don't know about Cambridge, but Oxford Uni will probably not give you much/any money. Apply to the colleges which could potentially give you the most money (probably Balliol and Lincoln) - have a look at this table for which colleges offer scholarships or bursaries that you might be eligible for.
In the Classics department at Oxford (Econ may be different, I don't know), I don't think they take any DPhils straight out of an undergraduate degree. You either do an MPhil or an MSt first; I suspect Cambridge is the same. So if you want to go on to do an Oxbridge DPhil you will need the MPhil/MSt. However, otherwise I think it is a bit of a vanity degree, especially for internationals.
On the other time, Oxbridge can be tremendous fun. I you have the money and can get in, no reason not to I suppose.
posted by iona at 6:45 PM on February 18, 2009
There is absolutely no reason to do this for purposes of law school--sure, it's another credential, but your LSAT and undergraduate GPA (which sound great for you, given the Ivy pedigree) are honestly all that really matter. If you were a weak candidate, I'd say go for it--but as a poster above noted, it's just more debt and more wasted time. Do it for yourself, if you want to, but it really won't do you any good in law school or in practice.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 9:02 PM on February 18, 2009
posted by Admiral Haddock at 9:02 PM on February 18, 2009
DO IT.
Law school is kind of a pit -- you will *not* find it intellectually stimulating. And if you actually practice law afterwards, this will sort of be the last truly interesting thing you do with your time. (If you don't want to actually practice law, why are you going to law school again?) You're young.
posted by paultopia at 10:28 PM on February 18, 2009
Law school is kind of a pit -- you will *not* find it intellectually stimulating. And if you actually practice law afterwards, this will sort of be the last truly interesting thing you do with your time. (If you don't want to actually practice law, why are you going to law school again?) You're young.
posted by paultopia at 10:28 PM on February 18, 2009
From experience, most Americans doing MPhils are generally those looking for a two-year course to bring them up to DPhil speed with their British-educated peers who most likely did a three-year course devoted to that particular subject. (There's the odd exception -- yer Rhodes Scholars -- but they're in a different situation altogether. And there are the sorta-kinda-vanity MPhils like Chelsea Clinton.)
If you (or the parentals) can afford it, and you have the competence to pass muster, then they'll take your money gladly. I'm with those who'd consider it a bit of a frippery if you're set on law school, though if you decide that there are too many lawyers in the world, it's not going to be that much more expensive to go right through... apart from the whole 'not getting paid lawyer wages' afterwards. Then again, you could conceivably finish law school and see if you can get sponsorship to do the one-year conversion and one-year professional qualification courses in the UK.
posted by holgate at 11:08 PM on February 18, 2009
If you (or the parentals) can afford it, and you have the competence to pass muster, then they'll take your money gladly. I'm with those who'd consider it a bit of a frippery if you're set on law school, though if you decide that there are too many lawyers in the world, it's not going to be that much more expensive to go right through... apart from the whole 'not getting paid lawyer wages' afterwards. Then again, you could conceivably finish law school and see if you can get sponsorship to do the one-year conversion and one-year professional qualification courses in the UK.
posted by holgate at 11:08 PM on February 18, 2009
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posted by availablelight at 4:25 PM on February 18, 2009