Help me save my brother from the fundies
February 12, 2009 9:20 PM Subscribe
My brother has fallen in with a group of scary fundamentalist Christians. I am worried that these people are trying to change him. What can I do? Am I right to be worried?
My brother has been a Christian of the my-religion-is-my-business sort for a while now, and I've always respected that even though I am an atheist, but he has recently started spending a lot of time around some pretty scary zealot types. I'm pretty sure that his primary motivation, at least at first, is/was to spend time around a girl he likes that's part of this group. Now, if he's just trying to get laid, he's definitely going about it the wrong way, but I think it's starting to go beyond that. He is the type of person that when he gets interested in something, he becomes obsessive about it, and he is somewhat impressionable as well.
He's been going with them to church and Bible study every night for the past few weeks. And now, the thing that made me really start to worry, is he said today that he's abstaining from caffeine because he wants to "cleanse his body". His love of Dr. Pepper is such that it's a full-on aspect of his personality, so this is a worrisome change. He also told my father that he's going to audition for the church's "praise and worship" band. This is a man who loves heavy metal and punk rock like most people love their children and has the Metallica pointed star symbol tattooed on his arm, so that he'd associate himself with awful saccharine anti-music worries me as well.
One comforting thing is when he told my dad about the church band, he told him not to tell me because he was worried I would make fun of him (I wouldn't have). Now, if he was really zealous about all this, he wouldn't care what I think, right? I think there is a line he won't cross, and when/if these yahoos tell him that heavy metal and tattoos and motorcycles are the devil's work, I'm pretty sure he'd tell them to fuck off. However, I'm not completely sure. I love my brother and I don't want these assholes to brainwash him. Is there any way to approach him about my concerns without alienating him?
My brother has been a Christian of the my-religion-is-my-business sort for a while now, and I've always respected that even though I am an atheist, but he has recently started spending a lot of time around some pretty scary zealot types. I'm pretty sure that his primary motivation, at least at first, is/was to spend time around a girl he likes that's part of this group. Now, if he's just trying to get laid, he's definitely going about it the wrong way, but I think it's starting to go beyond that. He is the type of person that when he gets interested in something, he becomes obsessive about it, and he is somewhat impressionable as well.
He's been going with them to church and Bible study every night for the past few weeks. And now, the thing that made me really start to worry, is he said today that he's abstaining from caffeine because he wants to "cleanse his body". His love of Dr. Pepper is such that it's a full-on aspect of his personality, so this is a worrisome change. He also told my father that he's going to audition for the church's "praise and worship" band. This is a man who loves heavy metal and punk rock like most people love their children and has the Metallica pointed star symbol tattooed on his arm, so that he'd associate himself with awful saccharine anti-music worries me as well.
One comforting thing is when he told my dad about the church band, he told him not to tell me because he was worried I would make fun of him (I wouldn't have). Now, if he was really zealous about all this, he wouldn't care what I think, right? I think there is a line he won't cross, and when/if these yahoos tell him that heavy metal and tattoos and motorcycles are the devil's work, I'm pretty sure he'd tell them to fuck off. However, I'm not completely sure. I love my brother and I don't want these assholes to brainwash him. Is there any way to approach him about my concerns without alienating him?
He may or may not be going to the dark side, but either way I kind of doubt there is anything you can do about it. I mean it's fundamentalist Christianity, not meth, and while close to as disturbing, it isn't illegal and there are no interventions for it. He's gonna do what he's gonna do and you trying to be a roadblock to it will likely just spur him on more (lots of fundamentalist christians are almost afraid of non believers and you will just play into all the stereotypes they will feed him about atheists if you because the devil in his path, sorry couldn't resist the lame joke...). On the bright side he'll probably lose interest and nothing you have posted about makes the group sound all that insane.
posted by whoaali at 9:33 PM on February 12, 2009
posted by whoaali at 9:33 PM on February 12, 2009
You have to let go. Your brother is a big boy, and he can make his own decisions; just because they're aren't the ones you would make doesn't make him an impressionable moron or his new friends zealot assholes. He's allowed to change his life any way he chooses to- cutting down on Dr. Pepper, listening to new music, becoming a "scary fundie". Let go. Let go. Let go.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:34 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:34 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well, this has only been going on for a few weeks now, and he's already acting different. My concern isn't that he'll forsake sugar water and butt-rock, but that this will escalate and he will get hurt, and that it will change our relationship.
posted by DecemberBoy at 9:34 PM on February 12, 2009
posted by DecemberBoy at 9:34 PM on February 12, 2009
Of course they're trying to change them. Specifically, they are trying to help him become a more complete and pious Christian. That's not really a problem. The real question is: are their efforts to change him inappropriate for his sense of identity and psychological well-being?
From what you've told us, it isn't really easy for us to tell. A lot of people tend to grow out of the phase where a soda drink is a defining characteristic, for instance. And I know a lot of musicians who find the experience of playing music for groups, regardless the type of music, to be meaningful and valuable. It's possible that he's just growing into a more mature individual, using this group's religious beliefs as a guide. Or, on the other hand, it could be that he is stifling his true nature out of some unhealthy desire to fit in or be accepted.
So, what should you do? Well, first of all, read up a bit on cults. You don't seem to mind so much that your brother is changing, but, instead, that he might be changing because of this group's nefarious influence. Find out what warning signs are for an inappropriate relationship between groups and group-members. At the very least, it might help you feel better.
Next, have you thought of talking to your brother? Maybe you don't want to phrase your concerns as, "Hey, I'm afraid you're turning into a fundamentalist pod person." But you might want to point out that you love him and are afraid that he's changing in ways that will lead to the two of you growing apart... He might allow you some insight into his motivations and thoughts about the whole thing, you will be able to express your worries, and the two of you might have a great bonding experience.
posted by Ms. Saint at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
From what you've told us, it isn't really easy for us to tell. A lot of people tend to grow out of the phase where a soda drink is a defining characteristic, for instance. And I know a lot of musicians who find the experience of playing music for groups, regardless the type of music, to be meaningful and valuable. It's possible that he's just growing into a more mature individual, using this group's religious beliefs as a guide. Or, on the other hand, it could be that he is stifling his true nature out of some unhealthy desire to fit in or be accepted.
So, what should you do? Well, first of all, read up a bit on cults. You don't seem to mind so much that your brother is changing, but, instead, that he might be changing because of this group's nefarious influence. Find out what warning signs are for an inappropriate relationship between groups and group-members. At the very least, it might help you feel better.
Next, have you thought of talking to your brother? Maybe you don't want to phrase your concerns as, "Hey, I'm afraid you're turning into a fundamentalist pod person." But you might want to point out that you love him and are afraid that he's changing in ways that will lead to the two of you growing apart... He might allow you some insight into his motivations and thoughts about the whole thing, you will be able to express your worries, and the two of you might have a great bonding experience.
posted by Ms. Saint at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
You may end up making yourself the enemy if you try to "rescue" him. Live and let live. If he starts preaching at you, tell him the same thing. Stay his brother, not his keeper.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
You're going to get a lot of people saying your brother's life is none of your business, but they are wrong. As the Bible says, you are your brother's keeper and all that.
In the end, who knows why you're brother is hanging around with the fundies, but the fact he's going to meetings every night is a bad sign. If it were my brother, I would take on the responsibility of showing him a better time than the fundies (couldn't be hard). I would suggest a few beers and a video evening with a couple of pointed picks - maybe Hell House and Religilious.
posted by dydecker at 9:38 PM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
In the end, who knows why you're brother is hanging around with the fundies, but the fact he's going to meetings every night is a bad sign. If it were my brother, I would take on the responsibility of showing him a better time than the fundies (couldn't be hard). I would suggest a few beers and a video evening with a couple of pointed picks - maybe Hell House and Religilious.
posted by dydecker at 9:38 PM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
Do you have any actual evidence that they are "assholes" or "scary," other than your own prejudices about conservative Christians?
It's not that there aren't people out there using their religious beliefs as an excuse to control others in pernicious ways. But you haven't presented any evidence that it's happening here, other than your feelings about the denomination in question. Making judgments about people based on their membership in less-favored groups is called prejudice.
Clearly, your brother's welfare is your business. But you have no way of knowing whether anything bad is happening. Perhaps your brother is finding a new set of interests (Christian worship music, healthy eating, &c.) that he can add to some of his old interests. You don't have enough information to advise him about this topic, even if it were appropriate to do so.
I'd suggest attending your brother's church with him a few times. You don't need to participate, just be respectful and observe. If you see anything that makes you uneasy for his well-being (exorbitant demands for money, child brides, mass suicide, &c.), you can mention those aspects of the church specifically. But if, as I suspect, this is a standard Bible-believing church that people join of their own free will because they get something out of it and because it inspires them to be better people, at least you'll understand your brother's point of view a little better.
posted by decathecting at 9:48 PM on February 12, 2009 [22 favorites]
It's not that there aren't people out there using their religious beliefs as an excuse to control others in pernicious ways. But you haven't presented any evidence that it's happening here, other than your feelings about the denomination in question. Making judgments about people based on their membership in less-favored groups is called prejudice.
Clearly, your brother's welfare is your business. But you have no way of knowing whether anything bad is happening. Perhaps your brother is finding a new set of interests (Christian worship music, healthy eating, &c.) that he can add to some of his old interests. You don't have enough information to advise him about this topic, even if it were appropriate to do so.
I'd suggest attending your brother's church with him a few times. You don't need to participate, just be respectful and observe. If you see anything that makes you uneasy for his well-being (exorbitant demands for money, child brides, mass suicide, &c.), you can mention those aspects of the church specifically. But if, as I suspect, this is a standard Bible-believing church that people join of their own free will because they get something out of it and because it inspires them to be better people, at least you'll understand your brother's point of view a little better.
posted by decathecting at 9:48 PM on February 12, 2009 [22 favorites]
I'm not going to argue that this group isn't trying to "change" your brother, but one thing to keep in mind...not all Christians are all OMG DEVIL'S MUSIC. I'm not into the church thing, but the church that my parents attend holds an annual motorcycle run, complete with leather and tattoos. They also have a few different "worship bands," a couple of which actually involve amps and drum sets and loud noises.
Again, this isn't to say that you shouldn't be keeping an eye on him...but try not to let your preconceptions affect your opinion of what is or is not actually changing about him.
posted by DulcineaX at 9:53 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Again, this isn't to say that you shouldn't be keeping an eye on him...but try not to let your preconceptions affect your opinion of what is or is not actually changing about him.
posted by DulcineaX at 9:53 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Musical horizons aren't going to be a great test of character and stability especially if he's young. I had brief obsessions with thrash and europop at the same time. And bleh at the soda news. The dumb new agey "toxin cleanse" fad has been around for a while and it's not a big shock that anyone would fall for it anymore. Religion doesn't have anything to do with that as far as I can see.
Talk with him about what you see as "scary." Are they being negative? Hateful? Willfully obtuse? Or is it just the intensity that worries you? Maybe your brother needs a break from disaffection and above-it-all-ness. Everybody wants to be wanted.
I'm an anti-fundie atheist and I think you're overreacting. If you can't make the case for why they're doing him harm, either through emotional manipulation, radical ideology, or bad behavior, just let him be.
posted by cowbellemoo at 9:57 PM on February 12, 2009
Talk with him about what you see as "scary." Are they being negative? Hateful? Willfully obtuse? Or is it just the intensity that worries you? Maybe your brother needs a break from disaffection and above-it-all-ness. Everybody wants to be wanted.
I'm an anti-fundie atheist and I think you're overreacting. If you can't make the case for why they're doing him harm, either through emotional manipulation, radical ideology, or bad behavior, just let him be.
posted by cowbellemoo at 9:57 PM on February 12, 2009
Now, if he was really zealous about all this, he wouldn't care what I think, right?
To be honest, I'm not really sure what one thing has to do with the other.
Anyway, none of these things sound remotely cult-like. It really sounds like your negative impression of religious people (the red flag was when you called them "assholes") is causing you to read more into this than is necessarily there. Most of the changes you describe are quite superficial and none of them are harmful. If he starts shunning his family for being non-believers or giving up his worldly possessions to the church, then you have a problem.
Mind you, I understand how jarring this must be. It's always unsettling when a close family member or old friend goes through such a big lifestyle change. But really, it's times like this that your brother needs your support. Try to be as open to this as you can.
posted by lunasol at 10:06 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
To be honest, I'm not really sure what one thing has to do with the other.
Anyway, none of these things sound remotely cult-like. It really sounds like your negative impression of religious people (the red flag was when you called them "assholes") is causing you to read more into this than is necessarily there. Most of the changes you describe are quite superficial and none of them are harmful. If he starts shunning his family for being non-believers or giving up his worldly possessions to the church, then you have a problem.
Mind you, I understand how jarring this must be. It's always unsettling when a close family member or old friend goes through such a big lifestyle change. But really, it's times like this that your brother needs your support. Try to be as open to this as you can.
posted by lunasol at 10:06 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
DulcineaX: not all Christians are all OMG DEVIL'S MUSIC.
Yes, but DecemberBoy says,
He's been going with them to church and Bible study every night for the past few weeks.
Church and Bible study every night for weeks is batshitinsane by any standard. So these fundies are pretty clearly nuts.
posted by jayder at 10:07 PM on February 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yes, but DecemberBoy says,
He's been going with them to church and Bible study every night for the past few weeks.
Church and Bible study every night for weeks is batshitinsane by any standard. So these fundies are pretty clearly nuts.
posted by jayder at 10:07 PM on February 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
OMG do you think they'll baptize him... or worse?
Of all the groups to fall in with, the Christians aren't so bad. I'm surrounded by people who would be considered bible thumpers by metafilterians and most of them are good people. The recruiting they do is a little off-putting, but keep in mind that their end goal is usually to have the people they recruit gather in a room once a week to talk about morality and support each other socially. Save your concern for your brother for things that might actually do him harm.
posted by 517 at 10:10 PM on February 12, 2009
Of all the groups to fall in with, the Christians aren't so bad. I'm surrounded by people who would be considered bible thumpers by metafilterians and most of them are good people. The recruiting they do is a little off-putting, but keep in mind that their end goal is usually to have the people they recruit gather in a room once a week to talk about morality and support each other socially. Save your concern for your brother for things that might actually do him harm.
posted by 517 at 10:10 PM on February 12, 2009
so that he'd associate himself with awful saccharine anti-music worries me as well.
Have you heard the (anti)music?
His love of Dr. Pepper is such that it's a full-on aspect of his personality
I have friends like that. They probably would benefit from abstaining, "body cleanse" or not.
and when/if these yahoos tell him that heavy metal and tattoos and motorcycles are the devil's work
The craziest heavy metal I've ever heard was while a soon-to-be-pastor was playing it. Another pastor I know the most tattoos I've seen on anyone besides Stalking Cat. Motorocycles, otoh, probably are the devils work, so no help there. Anyway, broad generalizations never helped a situation.
Ask him about it. Presumably he had pretty good taste a few weeks ago, so (not knowing him) I'd say it's a little silly to assume that he has fallen in with a group that's exactly how you describe it so quickly. It's obvious that you care about your brother, but I wouldn't worry about him just yet - but definitely talk to him and let him know you're there if things start getting to crazy.
posted by niles at 10:13 PM on February 12, 2009
Have you heard the (anti)music?
His love of Dr. Pepper is such that it's a full-on aspect of his personality
I have friends like that. They probably would benefit from abstaining, "body cleanse" or not.
and when/if these yahoos tell him that heavy metal and tattoos and motorcycles are the devil's work
The craziest heavy metal I've ever heard was while a soon-to-be-pastor was playing it. Another pastor I know the most tattoos I've seen on anyone besides Stalking Cat. Motorocycles, otoh, probably are the devils work, so no help there. Anyway, broad generalizations never helped a situation.
Ask him about it. Presumably he had pretty good taste a few weeks ago, so (not knowing him) I'd say it's a little silly to assume that he has fallen in with a group that's exactly how you describe it so quickly. It's obvious that you care about your brother, but I wouldn't worry about him just yet - but definitely talk to him and let him know you're there if things start getting to crazy.
posted by niles at 10:13 PM on February 12, 2009
Response by poster: Or is it just the intensity that worries you?
This. What worries me is that he all of a sudden REALLY into what I see as a poisonous ideology, when a month ago the extent of his religious beliefs was believing in God and maybe going to church once in a while. Now he's spending practically all his time with these people.
I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting, maybe it's my own preconceived notions about fundamentalists, maybe he really is just trying to nail this Jesus-freak chick and that's the primary reason for his interest. But I just have visions of him asking me repeatedly about why I'm not saved and our relationship souring. Maybe you'd have to know him to understand my concern. When he gets into something, like I said, he becomes totally obsessed. If there's a tactful way to prevent my fears from becoming reality that won't backfire and end up fucking up our relationship anyway, I want to try it.
posted by DecemberBoy at 10:14 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
This. What worries me is that he all of a sudden REALLY into what I see as a poisonous ideology, when a month ago the extent of his religious beliefs was believing in God and maybe going to church once in a while. Now he's spending practically all his time with these people.
I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting, maybe it's my own preconceived notions about fundamentalists, maybe he really is just trying to nail this Jesus-freak chick and that's the primary reason for his interest. But I just have visions of him asking me repeatedly about why I'm not saved and our relationship souring. Maybe you'd have to know him to understand my concern. When he gets into something, like I said, he becomes totally obsessed. If there's a tactful way to prevent my fears from becoming reality that won't backfire and end up fucking up our relationship anyway, I want to try it.
posted by DecemberBoy at 10:14 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Save your concern for your brother for things that might actually do him harm.
This answer is nuts. If the brother is getting involved in something very mainstream, then I might agree with this, but there are some really nutty fundamentalists out there. Read up on Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer, and other groups along those lines, and you'll see that there have been a lot of lives ruined by these cult-like perversions of Christianity.
posted by jayder at 10:22 PM on February 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
This answer is nuts. If the brother is getting involved in something very mainstream, then I might agree with this, but there are some really nutty fundamentalists out there. Read up on Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer, and other groups along those lines, and you'll see that there have been a lot of lives ruined by these cult-like perversions of Christianity.
posted by jayder at 10:22 PM on February 12, 2009 [2 favorites]
DecemberBoy, the best advice I can offer is to love your brother and not make him feel judged. I mean, if you think something is wrong and you have to say something, tell him once, but don't make it the topic of conversation again.
If the group truly is poisonous (I don't know if it is) then by being open to your brother, you'll provide a route for him to connect to the outside world if where he is turns out to be bad for him.
posted by zippy at 10:53 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
If the group truly is poisonous (I don't know if it is) then by being open to your brother, you'll provide a route for him to connect to the outside world if where he is turns out to be bad for him.
posted by zippy at 10:53 PM on February 12, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yeah, loving and not judging are great and all, but you need to keep an eye on him, too. I knew someone who went through a hell of a time when her father joined a small-ish religious cult and ended up signing away all of his money to the leader.
I'm not saying these are bad people, but I am saying that you don't know much about them, so it's smart to be cautious (as you obviously already are).
Hence the best advice I can offer is to keep in regular contact with your brother and treat him exactly as you used to. Give him as strong connection to the person he used to be as you are able. And hopefully if these people do turn out to be bad, in whatever sense you like, you'll be close enough to find out about it in time.
posted by voltairemodern at 11:28 PM on February 12, 2009
I'm not saying these are bad people, but I am saying that you don't know much about them, so it's smart to be cautious (as you obviously already are).
Hence the best advice I can offer is to keep in regular contact with your brother and treat him exactly as you used to. Give him as strong connection to the person he used to be as you are able. And hopefully if these people do turn out to be bad, in whatever sense you like, you'll be close enough to find out about it in time.
posted by voltairemodern at 11:28 PM on February 12, 2009
C'mon folks, of course there are crazy cultish churches out there. And there are entirely loving, positive, and beneficial churches.
We have no idea if these people are on the crazy end or the normal end of the spectrum. The thing is, neither do you. And maybe...neither does HE!
So you should start asking your brother about what you're noticing - keep up the dialogue, and he might feel you're even safer than this group - and it sounds like you have some ground to make up, considering you're already at the "they're assholes" stage. Ideas for conversations:
- Hey, it looks like you're really trying to make some positive changes - Dr. Pepper, etc. What inspired you to do that? Oh cool, you're just getting a better sense of what your body wants? Or...what do you mean by impure?
- What kind of music is that band into? What do you get to play? CAN I COME hear you guys play sometime? What's it like to be in a church with a kick-ass band?
- How are you feeling about all these new friends? Do they all seem equally cool or are there some you're more comfortable with? Why?
Just remember:
- you cannot control his actions
- you want to keep the line of conversation open right now
- you are not the boss of him
- but you are allowed to express worry and concern, in a limited manner, and within a larger context of a reasonable relationship. Don't harp constantly.
- keep offering old activities but also seek out to know a bit more about this new life, and why it might be appealing to him right now
- don't call them assholes, that won't get you anywhere.
posted by barnone at 11:58 PM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
We have no idea if these people are on the crazy end or the normal end of the spectrum. The thing is, neither do you. And maybe...neither does HE!
So you should start asking your brother about what you're noticing - keep up the dialogue, and he might feel you're even safer than this group - and it sounds like you have some ground to make up, considering you're already at the "they're assholes" stage. Ideas for conversations:
- Hey, it looks like you're really trying to make some positive changes - Dr. Pepper, etc. What inspired you to do that? Oh cool, you're just getting a better sense of what your body wants? Or...what do you mean by impure?
- What kind of music is that band into? What do you get to play? CAN I COME hear you guys play sometime? What's it like to be in a church with a kick-ass band?
- How are you feeling about all these new friends? Do they all seem equally cool or are there some you're more comfortable with? Why?
Just remember:
- you cannot control his actions
- you want to keep the line of conversation open right now
- you are not the boss of him
- but you are allowed to express worry and concern, in a limited manner, and within a larger context of a reasonable relationship. Don't harp constantly.
- keep offering old activities but also seek out to know a bit more about this new life, and why it might be appealing to him right now
- don't call them assholes, that won't get you anywhere.
posted by barnone at 11:58 PM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]
2 things:
1) Don't become hostile toward his religion. It'll be really easy for him to push you away if you offend his beliefs, or his right to choose them. I'm sure his crazy zealot friends would be all too glad to help turn him against you if you showed intolerance. So this is just a survival thing, keep the relationship intact.
2) Ask him about his religion. Really engage him. Try to listen and not judge. This, again, is just a help-the-relationship-survive kind of thing. If he is going through any kind of important religious changes, you won't be able to directly short-circuit and stop them. So the real question is: do you want to be *completely* excluded from what's going on? Or would you like to be a trusted confidant, there for him, knowing what's going on, around if he has a crisis. Be someone he trusts and you'll have his ear. Reject everything he's going through, and... well, see #1.
posted by scarabic at 11:59 PM on February 12, 2009
1) Don't become hostile toward his religion. It'll be really easy for him to push you away if you offend his beliefs, or his right to choose them. I'm sure his crazy zealot friends would be all too glad to help turn him against you if you showed intolerance. So this is just a survival thing, keep the relationship intact.
2) Ask him about his religion. Really engage him. Try to listen and not judge. This, again, is just a help-the-relationship-survive kind of thing. If he is going through any kind of important religious changes, you won't be able to directly short-circuit and stop them. So the real question is: do you want to be *completely* excluded from what's going on? Or would you like to be a trusted confidant, there for him, knowing what's going on, around if he has a crisis. Be someone he trusts and you'll have his ear. Reject everything he's going through, and... well, see #1.
posted by scarabic at 11:59 PM on February 12, 2009
You know what? One of my brothers was a seeker when we were in our early twenties. I was really disconcerted, because I'd looked up to him as someone who was really smart, and he kept getting involved with groups and people that I either didn't approve of, or had prejudices against or whatever. In the end, after searching, the right answer for him was atheism. I'm so glad that I never tried to judge him (out loud) or criticise his choices, legal as they were, because our relationship is still strong.
No guarantee that your brother will stay with this group or move on, be the same person you're used to, or change. However, he has the right to make this choice, and as a loving brother, it would be well if you just loved him for who he is, and not who you remember him as. Remember, his choice, and he's getting something from this experience that he hasn't found elsewhere. Hell, in my brief flirtation with Christianity, I felt overwhelmed by the acceptance of the group I was in, and their positive attitude.
I personally wouldn't introduce the topic of religion, especially if you think you will placed in a position where you have to lie, or say something unkind. Talk about what you've always talked about, music, sports, family, local news.
If he changes forever into someone you don't like, it's his choice and right. And if he doesn't, well, that's awesome, but siblings do grow apart and change quite often.
posted by b33j at 12:25 AM on February 13, 2009
No guarantee that your brother will stay with this group or move on, be the same person you're used to, or change. However, he has the right to make this choice, and as a loving brother, it would be well if you just loved him for who he is, and not who you remember him as. Remember, his choice, and he's getting something from this experience that he hasn't found elsewhere. Hell, in my brief flirtation with Christianity, I felt overwhelmed by the acceptance of the group I was in, and their positive attitude.
I personally wouldn't introduce the topic of religion, especially if you think you will placed in a position where you have to lie, or say something unkind. Talk about what you've always talked about, music, sports, family, local news.
If he changes forever into someone you don't like, it's his choice and right. And if he doesn't, well, that's awesome, but siblings do grow apart and change quite often.
posted by b33j at 12:25 AM on February 13, 2009
The other thing is that both of you sound rather young. And you've mentioned a few times that your brother gets REALLY into things and then, I imagine, moves onto something else. That's what we sometimes do when we're trying to find ourselves and place in the world. Do not treat this just as a fad, saying, "oh you'll get over it." Nothing is quicker to rankle someone who feels serious and committed.
But remember that people try all sorts of things on for size for all sorts of reasons. Figure out what he's getting there, and what he's looking for, and it won't matter if it's some church or knitting or race car driving - you'll still be someone he can relate to and talk with. Since you obviously care about him, make that front and center, not preventing him from having life experiences that he's choosing on his own. And...you'll be in a better position to tell if these folks (or any other folks in the future) might not have his best interests at heart.
Just remember: you cannot control his actions.
posted by barnone at 12:54 AM on February 13, 2009
But remember that people try all sorts of things on for size for all sorts of reasons. Figure out what he's getting there, and what he's looking for, and it won't matter if it's some church or knitting or race car driving - you'll still be someone he can relate to and talk with. Since you obviously care about him, make that front and center, not preventing him from having life experiences that he's choosing on his own. And...you'll be in a better position to tell if these folks (or any other folks in the future) might not have his best interests at heart.
Just remember: you cannot control his actions.
posted by barnone at 12:54 AM on February 13, 2009
Hey, I'm a Christian, and fundies scare me too. I say let him do what he wants to do, and don't panic until you see a real reason to panic. Don't panic in advance, I mean. He might decide these people aren't so great on his own without any outside pressure. But if it does start to change him in negative ways, there's nothing wrong with having a heart-to-heart with him about it just like you would if there were NON-religious reasons behind the changes.
Just make it clear to him if it gets to that point that you're only concerned about him, and that this isn't you trying to talk him out of Christianity altogether or something. 'cuz the fundies will probably tell him to expect that.
posted by katillathehun at 12:56 AM on February 13, 2009
Just make it clear to him if it gets to that point that you're only concerned about him, and that this isn't you trying to talk him out of Christianity altogether or something. 'cuz the fundies will probably tell him to expect that.
posted by katillathehun at 12:56 AM on February 13, 2009
Just make it clear to him if it gets to that point that you're only concerned about him, and that this isn't you trying to talk him out of Christianity altogether or something.
See, I don't get this. Why is it okay for a group of people to talk him into Christian fundamentalism, every night no less and no doubt very convincingly, but it is impolite and not cool at all for his athiest bro to talk him out of the idea? People are even saying upthread 'Don't talk about religion in case you alienate him and destroy your relationship'. I bet they wouldn't say that to the fundies: 'don't discuss religion - he might have a bunch of different ideas...' Sheesh talk about giving up on the guy before you even start.
posted by dydecker at 1:11 AM on February 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
See, I don't get this. Why is it okay for a group of people to talk him into Christian fundamentalism, every night no less and no doubt very convincingly, but it is impolite and not cool at all for his athiest bro to talk him out of the idea? People are even saying upthread 'Don't talk about religion in case you alienate him and destroy your relationship'. I bet they wouldn't say that to the fundies: 'don't discuss religion - he might have a bunch of different ideas...' Sheesh talk about giving up on the guy before you even start.
posted by dydecker at 1:11 AM on February 13, 2009 [5 favorites]
It's kind of strange--you're worried about your brother falling in with this crowd, but you don't seem to know him very well. You don't know why he befriended this group, you don't know if it's all to get with this chick, you don't know if they really have a hold on him, you don't know if he really thinks it's all bullshit.
Have a conversation. NOT an intervention, because it sounds like he doesn't have the problem--you do. Regarding those above points I mentioned, work them into a conversation, steer a conversation in that direction. It doesn't have to be an interrogation or anything.
posted by zardoz at 2:00 AM on February 13, 2009
Have a conversation. NOT an intervention, because it sounds like he doesn't have the problem--you do. Regarding those above points I mentioned, work them into a conversation, steer a conversation in that direction. It doesn't have to be an interrogation or anything.
posted by zardoz at 2:00 AM on February 13, 2009
Best answer: I'm surprised everyone's so relaxed about this as well - bible study every single night seems pretty brain-washy to me, and it were my brother, I'd be at least a little worried. Does he have any time left for his other friends and his family? What did he do every evening before this?
I don't think we have enough information to make the call on whether this group is just devout or is actually scary. Either way, I think what you should do is try and strengthen your bond with him. What you don't want is him to become cut off from his former life - people whose seek excessive influence over others often start with excessive time demands, which tend to do just that. Both cults and abusive partners, for example, will try to cut off their target from their support network.
In practical terms, I think this means you should make an extra effort to spend time with your brother and hang out and be cool, engaging company. I do not think you should engage with the religious aspect of what's worrying you - not because it would be disrespectful to these people's religion, but because you can't argue with faith. However, if you guys would normally go to the movies or bowling or something, and those times slots have been taken over by this religious group, I think a gentle "Wow, I feel we don't get to see you any more" is totally cool and might put the committment they appear to be seeking from him in perspective. If it looks like a real problem, I would talk to him, but focussing on how you feel about it, and on the needs of his family and other friends to spend time with him and be part of his life.
In the end, what he believes doesn't really matter, it's how he acts that will have an impact on your relationship. And that goes for you too. The potential problem here isn't "I'm an atheist, my brother's a fundie!", it's "I never see my brother any more because he became subsumed into a weird cult". It's really not about belief or faith at all. If these guys really are scary, the battle for you is to remain part of his life, and that's what I would work on. If they turn out to be harmless, all that will have happened is that you've spent some extra quality time together.
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:16 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't think we have enough information to make the call on whether this group is just devout or is actually scary. Either way, I think what you should do is try and strengthen your bond with him. What you don't want is him to become cut off from his former life - people whose seek excessive influence over others often start with excessive time demands, which tend to do just that. Both cults and abusive partners, for example, will try to cut off their target from their support network.
In practical terms, I think this means you should make an extra effort to spend time with your brother and hang out and be cool, engaging company. I do not think you should engage with the religious aspect of what's worrying you - not because it would be disrespectful to these people's religion, but because you can't argue with faith. However, if you guys would normally go to the movies or bowling or something, and those times slots have been taken over by this religious group, I think a gentle "Wow, I feel we don't get to see you any more" is totally cool and might put the committment they appear to be seeking from him in perspective. If it looks like a real problem, I would talk to him, but focussing on how you feel about it, and on the needs of his family and other friends to spend time with him and be part of his life.
In the end, what he believes doesn't really matter, it's how he acts that will have an impact on your relationship. And that goes for you too. The potential problem here isn't "I'm an atheist, my brother's a fundie!", it's "I never see my brother any more because he became subsumed into a weird cult". It's really not about belief or faith at all. If these guys really are scary, the battle for you is to remain part of his life, and that's what I would work on. If they turn out to be harmless, all that will have happened is that you've spent some extra quality time together.
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:16 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
He's an adult, and it's a free country.
posted by watercarrier at 2:26 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by watercarrier at 2:26 AM on February 13, 2009
Do the people in your brother's religious group have their own home, or do they all live in some communal set-up? Do they have regular jobs, or are they involved in religious activity full-time? Are they expected to give all / most of their money to the group? Do they take part in non-religious social activities where you live, or do they only hang out with each other? Do they have healthy relationships with (non-Christian) friends and family or are they encouraged to break off contact with anyone who doesn't share their faith? Are there repercussions for anyone who wants to leave the group?
I'm sure there are actual cult risk assessment checklists out there, but these questions give you an idea of red flags to look out for. Normal home, normal job, no excessive financial demands and normal relationships with outsiders means pretty low-risk.
Seconding everyone who encouraged you to keep open the communication channels with your brother, being non-threatening and non-judgemental. If the group is some kind of cult, you're one of his lifelines to a normal life.
posted by rjs at 2:47 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm sure there are actual cult risk assessment checklists out there, but these questions give you an idea of red flags to look out for. Normal home, normal job, no excessive financial demands and normal relationships with outsiders means pretty low-risk.
Seconding everyone who encouraged you to keep open the communication channels with your brother, being non-threatening and non-judgemental. If the group is some kind of cult, you're one of his lifelines to a normal life.
posted by rjs at 2:47 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
When I was in high school (and I'm assuming that's about the age of you and your brother), I had a crush on a boy who was quite fundamentalist and out there. He'd come over and preach to me... I loved it because I thought it was a date of sorts. Then I'd breathlessly parrot what he told me to others. My family just watched and listened. They knew what I know now -- it was a phase. I got over my crush, and got over the fundie stuff just as quickly.
I think that's the best thing to do. Don't match his intensity and belief that he's got all the answers with intensity and belief that you've got all the answers. He's exploring something new, but he's spent most of his life absorbing your family's values. Those values are strong, and they are still there. Trust in him to make the right choices for himself.
There's nothing scary about learning, exploring, and questioning. What's scary, in my opinion, is being afraid of learning, exploring, and questioning. When you learn about someone else's faith, you can then accept or reject parts or all of it, and make that decision with knowledge.
posted by Houstonian at 3:31 AM on February 13, 2009
I think that's the best thing to do. Don't match his intensity and belief that he's got all the answers with intensity and belief that you've got all the answers. He's exploring something new, but he's spent most of his life absorbing your family's values. Those values are strong, and they are still there. Trust in him to make the right choices for himself.
There's nothing scary about learning, exploring, and questioning. What's scary, in my opinion, is being afraid of learning, exploring, and questioning. When you learn about someone else's faith, you can then accept or reject parts or all of it, and make that decision with knowledge.
posted by Houstonian at 3:31 AM on February 13, 2009
He's an adult, and it's a free country.
...and the same is true for you. As long as you respect those two points where they concern him, you're allowed to be worried.
I grew up in a fundie environment (now agnostic/atheist), so yeah, it would be cause for concern if this happened to my brother. I think the "don't worry too much about the music and Dr. Pepper" advice" has its merits, but so does the "woah, meetings every night?!" sentiment. Your (and your family's) relationship with your brother does risk getting messed up because of his beliefs (seen it happen to more than a few).
I think the best thing you can do is to respect his right to believe what he wants, but treat this as you would any foray into irrationality (a pyramid scheme, Landmark Forum, or Rush Limbaugh Republicanism). Be the best friend you can under the circumstances, and be a role model of a rational, responsible, happy person so he has an "anchor" when he has doubts, or decides he's had enough. Good luck.
posted by Rykey at 4:06 AM on February 13, 2009
...and the same is true for you. As long as you respect those two points where they concern him, you're allowed to be worried.
I grew up in a fundie environment (now agnostic/atheist), so yeah, it would be cause for concern if this happened to my brother. I think the "don't worry too much about the music and Dr. Pepper" advice" has its merits, but so does the "woah, meetings every night?!" sentiment. Your (and your family's) relationship with your brother does risk getting messed up because of his beliefs (seen it happen to more than a few).
I think the best thing you can do is to respect his right to believe what he wants, but treat this as you would any foray into irrationality (a pyramid scheme, Landmark Forum, or Rush Limbaugh Republicanism). Be the best friend you can under the circumstances, and be a role model of a rational, responsible, happy person so he has an "anchor" when he has doubts, or decides he's had enough. Good luck.
posted by Rykey at 4:06 AM on February 13, 2009
His religion still is his business, even if you don't like where it's going.
At the same time, you need to be true to your self. If you can't openly support him doing this, then don't. I don't mean cut him off or ostracize him, but talk to him and say "Hey, I don't get this and until I know more about it, I'm not sure I'm really down with it." Be honest.
He has the right to do what he wants, and you totally have the right to choose to support that or not. Talk to him about it openly. Tell him what concerns you, ask him questions about his experience. If you are going to ultimately decide that you're not down with it, tell him so once and then let it go. Don't hold this over his head. Go on record that you don't like it if you need to, and then sit back and let him do what he's going to do.
If you want any support in the lines of "Families of Fundies Anonymous," my dad is a total scary Jew For Jesus fundie (HI DAD!) and I'd be happy to share my coping strategies with you. I love my dad, he's my dad, but man. His religious beliefs of choice are nothing short of insane. Currently, he's harmlessly insane, but he *has* been involved with money-sucking faux churches in the past, so I know all about that kind of hell as well. Feel free to MeMail me if you would like any advice/commiseration/whatever.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:18 AM on February 13, 2009
At the same time, you need to be true to your self. If you can't openly support him doing this, then don't. I don't mean cut him off or ostracize him, but talk to him and say "Hey, I don't get this and until I know more about it, I'm not sure I'm really down with it." Be honest.
He has the right to do what he wants, and you totally have the right to choose to support that or not. Talk to him about it openly. Tell him what concerns you, ask him questions about his experience. If you are going to ultimately decide that you're not down with it, tell him so once and then let it go. Don't hold this over his head. Go on record that you don't like it if you need to, and then sit back and let him do what he's going to do.
If you want any support in the lines of "Families of Fundies Anonymous," my dad is a total scary Jew For Jesus fundie (HI DAD!) and I'd be happy to share my coping strategies with you. I love my dad, he's my dad, but man. His religious beliefs of choice are nothing short of insane. Currently, he's harmlessly insane, but he *has* been involved with money-sucking faux churches in the past, so I know all about that kind of hell as well. Feel free to MeMail me if you would like any advice/commiseration/whatever.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:18 AM on February 13, 2009
I'm sure there are actual cult risk assessment checklists out there
rjs is right; there are some very specific things that folks who study potentially dangerous religious groups see frequently and it's not a bad idea to keep those in mind when thinking about this situation. Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups and
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults might be useful.
Loving your brother means being comfortable telling him you think it's weird to get so caught up in a religious group. But leaving it at that and continuing to support him as best you can while he makes whatever changes he wants to make is probably the best way to position yourself to help in case the group gets more dangerous to him.
posted by mediareport at 5:01 AM on February 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
rjs is right; there are some very specific things that folks who study potentially dangerous religious groups see frequently and it's not a bad idea to keep those in mind when thinking about this situation. Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups and
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults might be useful.
Loving your brother means being comfortable telling him you think it's weird to get so caught up in a religious group. But leaving it at that and continuing to support him as best you can while he makes whatever changes he wants to make is probably the best way to position yourself to help in case the group gets more dangerous to him.
posted by mediareport at 5:01 AM on February 13, 2009 [4 favorites]
Is he killing people? Is he breaking the law? Is he threatening you or bothering you and refusing to leave you alone? Is he physically harming himself or others?
If not, maybe you should, you know, tolerate views other than your own.
It's fine thinking it's weird, or kind of annoying, or wishing he was the way he used to be--but don't try to be controlling him. If what he's doing makes him happier, isn't that, you know, kind of a good thing?
posted by Autarky at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2009
If not, maybe you should, you know, tolerate views other than your own.
It's fine thinking it's weird, or kind of annoying, or wishing he was the way he used to be--but don't try to be controlling him. If what he's doing makes him happier, isn't that, you know, kind of a good thing?
posted by Autarky at 5:35 AM on February 13, 2009
I'm a Christian and religious freaks freak me out too. When you said you were scared he would constantly be asking you "to get saved," my ears popped open, I sooo feel you on that, very creepy.
That said, I have a friend who went through something similar to your brother years ago, around our senior year in college. She fell in deep because her boyfriend (who was very lost) fell in. Many of her friends shyed away because it freaked them out to see her, a "normal" person get so intensely religous overnight. I didn't say anything, attended their church sometimes, but never really "drunk the water" if you catch my drift. Her response to others who expressed concern was defensive and defiant. It was really a strange time, now that I look back on it. But here's what I think eventually brought her (and her now husband) out--observing. They started to see hypocrisy in the church leaders and things not adding up, and eventually looked in the mirror and realized they were missing out on life because of all those weird religous rules against things that were really not harmful (like listening to mainstream music instead of gospel 24/7).
You don't say how hold your brother is, but I suspect he too will grow out of this phase. He may not become an atheist like you, but I doubt he'll maintain this intensity for the long haul. I've seen countless people jump in like that and eventually fall off and find an equilibrium. And since you say he has a history of obsesion at first, then falling back, there's no reason to think that won't be the case this time.
I like the suggestions above: go to church with him once or twice and express your concern ONCE, not continually and not in a condescending way (like the tone of your post), just in a loving even joking way,"Wow you're really going to the extreme huh? I don't know many people who go to church EVERY night, that's kind-of bizarre, don't you think?" And just be there for him when he comes back home, which I'm almost 99% sure he will do.
posted by GeniPalm at 5:37 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
That said, I have a friend who went through something similar to your brother years ago, around our senior year in college. She fell in deep because her boyfriend (who was very lost) fell in. Many of her friends shyed away because it freaked them out to see her, a "normal" person get so intensely religous overnight. I didn't say anything, attended their church sometimes, but never really "drunk the water" if you catch my drift. Her response to others who expressed concern was defensive and defiant. It was really a strange time, now that I look back on it. But here's what I think eventually brought her (and her now husband) out--observing. They started to see hypocrisy in the church leaders and things not adding up, and eventually looked in the mirror and realized they were missing out on life because of all those weird religous rules against things that were really not harmful (like listening to mainstream music instead of gospel 24/7).
You don't say how hold your brother is, but I suspect he too will grow out of this phase. He may not become an atheist like you, but I doubt he'll maintain this intensity for the long haul. I've seen countless people jump in like that and eventually fall off and find an equilibrium. And since you say he has a history of obsesion at first, then falling back, there's no reason to think that won't be the case this time.
I like the suggestions above: go to church with him once or twice and express your concern ONCE, not continually and not in a condescending way (like the tone of your post), just in a loving even joking way,"Wow you're really going to the extreme huh? I don't know many people who go to church EVERY night, that's kind-of bizarre, don't you think?" And just be there for him when he comes back home, which I'm almost 99% sure he will do.
posted by GeniPalm at 5:37 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Church and Bible study every night for weeks is batshitinsane by any standard.
No, it's not. It's really, really not.
At least, it's not extreme in the "holy crap, the only next logical step is Jonestown" kind of way.
Look. Some people do pray or do some kind of spiritual observance every day (raises hand). Some of those people who do this, prefer to do so with a group. Honestly, that's really all that's going on.
I understand why people can get concerned, but honestly, unless he is being asked to cut himself off from his family and give all his money to his group and live in sackcloth, this is not a cult, and this is his own choice.
....I'm actually reminded of the early days of U2 (go with me a minute, I swear this is relevant). When they were just getting going, they all got caught up in a group like this in Ireland -- daily Bible study, swearing off caffine and alcohol...they got more and more into it. But they reached a point that they disagreed with -- the leader of the group actually started making a serious pitch to them that being musicians wasn't Biblical or something like that. And they seriously contemplated that for a day or so before they all suddenly blinked, realized, "wait, that doesn't make sense for us," and left. Your brother may come to a similar conclusion at some point, or he may agree and become more fundamentalist. Either way, this is his choice.
Again, a "cult" is really only truly dangerous if they encourage him to turn over ALL of his money to them and if they really and truly practice brainwashing. And daily prayer meetings and Bible study is NOT brainwashing - 24-hour prayer meetings and sleep deprivation is brainwashing. This isn't even close.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:54 AM on February 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
No, it's not. It's really, really not.
At least, it's not extreme in the "holy crap, the only next logical step is Jonestown" kind of way.
Look. Some people do pray or do some kind of spiritual observance every day (raises hand). Some of those people who do this, prefer to do so with a group. Honestly, that's really all that's going on.
I understand why people can get concerned, but honestly, unless he is being asked to cut himself off from his family and give all his money to his group and live in sackcloth, this is not a cult, and this is his own choice.
....I'm actually reminded of the early days of U2 (go with me a minute, I swear this is relevant). When they were just getting going, they all got caught up in a group like this in Ireland -- daily Bible study, swearing off caffine and alcohol...they got more and more into it. But they reached a point that they disagreed with -- the leader of the group actually started making a serious pitch to them that being musicians wasn't Biblical or something like that. And they seriously contemplated that for a day or so before they all suddenly blinked, realized, "wait, that doesn't make sense for us," and left. Your brother may come to a similar conclusion at some point, or he may agree and become more fundamentalist. Either way, this is his choice.
Again, a "cult" is really only truly dangerous if they encourage him to turn over ALL of his money to them and if they really and truly practice brainwashing. And daily prayer meetings and Bible study is NOT brainwashing - 24-hour prayer meetings and sleep deprivation is brainwashing. This isn't even close.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:54 AM on February 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
It's a cult. Treat it like you would if he was hanging around with any other kind of cult.
That is, keep your ears open for things that might cost him a great deal of money, lose him his job, or generally destroy his family.
But until and unless you hear things like that... shut up and wait for him to ASK for your opinion or advice. It'll be worth 100x more that way.
posted by rokusan at 5:54 AM on February 13, 2009
That is, keep your ears open for things that might cost him a great deal of money, lose him his job, or generally destroy his family.
But until and unless you hear things like that... shut up and wait for him to ASK for your opinion or advice. It'll be worth 100x more that way.
posted by rokusan at 5:54 AM on February 13, 2009
Tell your brother to check out Believer, Vengeance Rising and Moritification, just a couple Christian metal bands that totally destroy Metallica.
posted by The Straightener at 6:32 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by The Straightener at 6:32 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
His may not be a cult... it might just be a crutch.
If he had metal tats and they're of the Rockin' Good Service sort, I'd bet you anything that the church he's joining is of this crutch variety.
Some Victory Outreach sorts of church groups do have bible study and church activities of some sort every freaking day. I'm talking about groups that seem to specialise in reforming ex-cons or gang members, help recovering addicts or alcoholics... basically, help people who are trying to change their lives and spend all their time at the church and with church members because they aren't going to pull them back into a lifestyle they don't want anymore.
If this was my brother, I'd ask myself what it is about himself that he wants to change. What is different now? It might not be the chick. It might be something else going on in his life. Maybe something that he doesn't really want to accept?
Maybe he's just done the metal, vaguely religious thing and is trying something a bit more hard core, faithwise? You know, finding himself in losing himself in all the rules and strict behaviour and prayer?
My own brother explored different conservative religious groups, before settling on the Mormons. He was struggling to accept that he was gay, when he wasn't sure he really wanted to be gay. The LDS church was his crutch in this struggle as well. (He converted because he was in love with a nice Mormon boy) He's accepted himself, now, and his interest in restrictive diets and garments and temple recommends.
It might be the same for your brother. Not that he's gay, but that he's trying to save himself from himself, in his own way. Give him space to do that. He's still your brother, and he'll find his way back to himself and to you in his own time.
posted by Grrlscout at 6:34 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
If he had metal tats and they're of the Rockin' Good Service sort, I'd bet you anything that the church he's joining is of this crutch variety.
Some Victory Outreach sorts of church groups do have bible study and church activities of some sort every freaking day. I'm talking about groups that seem to specialise in reforming ex-cons or gang members, help recovering addicts or alcoholics... basically, help people who are trying to change their lives and spend all their time at the church and with church members because they aren't going to pull them back into a lifestyle they don't want anymore.
If this was my brother, I'd ask myself what it is about himself that he wants to change. What is different now? It might not be the chick. It might be something else going on in his life. Maybe something that he doesn't really want to accept?
Maybe he's just done the metal, vaguely religious thing and is trying something a bit more hard core, faithwise? You know, finding himself in losing himself in all the rules and strict behaviour and prayer?
My own brother explored different conservative religious groups, before settling on the Mormons. He was struggling to accept that he was gay, when he wasn't sure he really wanted to be gay. The LDS church was his crutch in this struggle as well. (He converted because he was in love with a nice Mormon boy) He's accepted himself, now, and his interest in restrictive diets and garments and temple recommends.
It might be the same for your brother. Not that he's gay, but that he's trying to save himself from himself, in his own way. Give him space to do that. He's still your brother, and he'll find his way back to himself and to you in his own time.
posted by Grrlscout at 6:34 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sorry, am carbed out after lunch... I meant to say that my brother's interest in all things Mormon has faded away.
posted by Grrlscout at 6:37 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by Grrlscout at 6:37 AM on February 13, 2009
I don't feel that you have enough information here.
There are circumstances where this sort of behavior would be extremely worrying; if they are a cult organization that is trying to make him give up his identity (and cash).
There are also circumstances where this sort of behavior would be completely normal; if he's just throwing himself into this because it's having periods of obsession is how he is.
I recently joined a Unitarian Universalist congregation. I spend on average three days a week doing something church related, not including going to services. I go to various classes and covenant groups and volunteer opportunities. And EmpressCallipygos is right: many people have daily spiritual practices. Bringing this back to your brother, is he doing the same thing at Bible classes every night? Is he volunteering with church people (maybe feeding the poor)? Is he practicing with the musicians? There could be a lot of different activities that interest him that keep him at church most days of the week, not simply indoctrination.
However, you could be right and he could be getting brainwashed every single night of the week.
You don't know though.
You're concerned, and rightfully so. So I'm going to agree with a large portion of people upthread and say ASK him about it. Without judgment. Sound like you're interested in what's interesting him right now, so he won't respond defensively. With more information, you'll have a better understanding of what you're dealing with.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 6:43 AM on February 13, 2009
There are circumstances where this sort of behavior would be extremely worrying; if they are a cult organization that is trying to make him give up his identity (and cash).
There are also circumstances where this sort of behavior would be completely normal; if he's just throwing himself into this because it's having periods of obsession is how he is.
I recently joined a Unitarian Universalist congregation. I spend on average three days a week doing something church related, not including going to services. I go to various classes and covenant groups and volunteer opportunities. And EmpressCallipygos is right: many people have daily spiritual practices. Bringing this back to your brother, is he doing the same thing at Bible classes every night? Is he volunteering with church people (maybe feeding the poor)? Is he practicing with the musicians? There could be a lot of different activities that interest him that keep him at church most days of the week, not simply indoctrination.
However, you could be right and he could be getting brainwashed every single night of the week.
You don't know though.
You're concerned, and rightfully so. So I'm going to agree with a large portion of people upthread and say ASK him about it. Without judgment. Sound like you're interested in what's interesting him right now, so he won't respond defensively. With more information, you'll have a better understanding of what you're dealing with.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 6:43 AM on February 13, 2009
To be honest it sounds like you don't really know much about the situation at all. You need to ask more questions (in a much more non-confrontational way than you set up this question). You're letting your opinions of a religion as a whole slant the way you're seeing this. It's not really fair for you to judge your brother based on those opinions. Sure, you're concerned, so get involved. Cut the "all Christians are assholes that are stealing my best bro" routine and just get involved in his life and find out more about what's really going wrong. Cutting out soda is not a red flag, you're making it one. "Bible study every night" in your eyes might just be that he's found friends and he's hanging out with them more. Unless you have specific evidence of what they're doing (and I don't see how you could since you don't mention every offering to join him) I think you need to stop filling the situation with hyperbole and realize that your brother is an adult that can make decisions for himself, and if you want to opine on those decisions you need to actively have facts and information which you can only get from becoming more involved with him, not less.
posted by genial at 7:00 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by genial at 7:00 AM on February 13, 2009
What worries me is that he all of a sudden REALLY into what I see as a poisonous ideology, when a month ago the extent of his religious beliefs was believing in God and maybe going to church once in a while. Now he's spending practically all his time with these people.
...When he gets into something, like I said, he becomes totally obsessed.
Former nutso church-every-day Christian, here.
Honestly, this happens a lot. The new convert is always the most zealous. Their zealousness is fed by everyone else's excitement that someone actually converted (and this includes conversions from less intense versions of Christianity).
I'm not sure that I've ever seen it stick. It can get ugly when they shake their head and snap out of it and say "Hey, wait a sec, those people aren't BAD, they're the friends I used to hang out with."
As for me, one of the biggest things that kept me grounded was my non-Christian sister. She didn't preach, she didn't judge, she was respectful and yet kept her boundaries re: church (wasn't going to convert, but wasn't going to rant either) and we kept a good relationship. I always struggled with maintaining my fundie worldview and yet making room for her in it. The parts that bothered me were usually parts that judged her, that didn't see her for the great person she is (i.e. not "lost" or "sinful").
Be that person for your brother. Don't jump down his throat. That's like slagging on his new girlfriend that everyone thinks is weird. Just be there for him and wait for him to come around. Don't attack the music or the group, because he loves it right now and will defend it to protect himself.
posted by heatherann at 7:08 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
...When he gets into something, like I said, he becomes totally obsessed.
Former nutso church-every-day Christian, here.
Honestly, this happens a lot. The new convert is always the most zealous. Their zealousness is fed by everyone else's excitement that someone actually converted (and this includes conversions from less intense versions of Christianity).
I'm not sure that I've ever seen it stick. It can get ugly when they shake their head and snap out of it and say "Hey, wait a sec, those people aren't BAD, they're the friends I used to hang out with."
As for me, one of the biggest things that kept me grounded was my non-Christian sister. She didn't preach, she didn't judge, she was respectful and yet kept her boundaries re: church (wasn't going to convert, but wasn't going to rant either) and we kept a good relationship. I always struggled with maintaining my fundie worldview and yet making room for her in it. The parts that bothered me were usually parts that judged her, that didn't see her for the great person she is (i.e. not "lost" or "sinful").
Be that person for your brother. Don't jump down his throat. That's like slagging on his new girlfriend that everyone thinks is weird. Just be there for him and wait for him to come around. Don't attack the music or the group, because he loves it right now and will defend it to protect himself.
posted by heatherann at 7:08 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Youre premise is 100% wrong. Fundies dont walk around changing right-thinking people into hateful stereotypes the same way gays dont recruit children into their lifestyle.
No one gets tricked into joining a choir or into going to Bible study every night. Obviously your brother has been hiding some needs and some hurt from you and he is finding solace in a more extreme version of his religion. Stop accussing the fundies of wrong doing. If you want to address this you should talk to your brother about his motivation and how this makes him feel. Once you have him opened up you can address your concerns about hateful ideologies and how unhealthy it is to suddenly go whole hog into something. You should also ask him if he's been depressed or having any mental problems lately. He may be trying to address depression or loneliness by attaching himself to this church.
Arguably, humans historically have never been this non-religious. Its not surprising to find people who spent their teens and 20s as atheists or agnostics are trying to find some kind of ideology or religion later in life, especially when you realize how close death is. Its practically hard-wired into our monkey brains. Dont feel shocked that someone who listens to heavy metal and never goes to church suddenly feels the need for this kind of thing. Its practically a biological function.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:08 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
No one gets tricked into joining a choir or into going to Bible study every night. Obviously your brother has been hiding some needs and some hurt from you and he is finding solace in a more extreme version of his religion. Stop accussing the fundies of wrong doing. If you want to address this you should talk to your brother about his motivation and how this makes him feel. Once you have him opened up you can address your concerns about hateful ideologies and how unhealthy it is to suddenly go whole hog into something. You should also ask him if he's been depressed or having any mental problems lately. He may be trying to address depression or loneliness by attaching himself to this church.
Arguably, humans historically have never been this non-religious. Its not surprising to find people who spent their teens and 20s as atheists or agnostics are trying to find some kind of ideology or religion later in life, especially when you realize how close death is. Its practically hard-wired into our monkey brains. Dont feel shocked that someone who listens to heavy metal and never goes to church suddenly feels the need for this kind of thing. Its practically a biological function.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:08 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Its practically hard-wired into our monkey brains...Its practically a biological function.
Your premise is 100% wrong.
posted by Rykey at 7:15 AM on February 13, 2009
Your premise is 100% wrong.
posted by Rykey at 7:15 AM on February 13, 2009
He may be getting sucked into a cult. He may have found something that's incredibly helpful and healthy for him. He may be just trying to get into this girl's pants. He may have picked up a new fad that he'll have dropped in a few months for hang gliding or African drumming or poetry slams. What's almost certain is that if you get in his face about this, it's going to damage your relationship. If this church is cult-ish, then having close ties to family and friends outside of it is the most important thing in the world.
But what I'm kind of surprised no one has suggested so far is this:
Go to church with him a couple of times. Get up one Sunday morning and go with him, maybe even check out the Bible study. I guarantee you you'll be welcome, and you'll get a far better idea of whether this place is bad news than you will here on Metafilter.
Try to keep an open mind, though. You're not going to agree with what they have to say, but try to remember that that's okay. Remember how much you respected your brothers my-religion-is-my-business attitude? Well, his religion is his business. There are lots of Christians out there who are good, decent, friendly, wonderful people who just don't agree with you about certain things. There are also lots of hateful, crazy, ignorant Christians, too, of course, just like any large group of people. But if you're really concerned that these people may be the latter, go meet them. Check 'em out. It can't hurt.
posted by EarBucket at 7:23 AM on February 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
But what I'm kind of surprised no one has suggested so far is this:
Go to church with him a couple of times. Get up one Sunday morning and go with him, maybe even check out the Bible study. I guarantee you you'll be welcome, and you'll get a far better idea of whether this place is bad news than you will here on Metafilter.
Try to keep an open mind, though. You're not going to agree with what they have to say, but try to remember that that's okay. Remember how much you respected your brothers my-religion-is-my-business attitude? Well, his religion is his business. There are lots of Christians out there who are good, decent, friendly, wonderful people who just don't agree with you about certain things. There are also lots of hateful, crazy, ignorant Christians, too, of course, just like any large group of people. But if you're really concerned that these people may be the latter, go meet them. Check 'em out. It can't hurt.
posted by EarBucket at 7:23 AM on February 13, 2009 [3 favorites]
seriously go with him if you are that concerned. yes there are scary fundementalist christians out there, but it's not the going to church and bible study every night that is the issue.
And please if you go, let go of your prejuidices and realize that just because you don't believe it doesn't make it a problem. Unless they are truly exerting undue influence and control on your brother, let him seek comfort and acceptance where he chooses.
Now if they whip out the rattlesnakes and the child brides, you have my permission to flee immediately and take your brother with you.
posted by domino at 7:53 AM on February 13, 2009
And please if you go, let go of your prejuidices and realize that just because you don't believe it doesn't make it a problem. Unless they are truly exerting undue influence and control on your brother, let him seek comfort and acceptance where he chooses.
Now if they whip out the rattlesnakes and the child brides, you have my permission to flee immediately and take your brother with you.
posted by domino at 7:53 AM on February 13, 2009
Why does it matter so much to you how your brother practices his religion? You say you respected his "my-religion-is-my-business" approach, but what does that mean? You respected his right to believe whatever he wanted so long as he didn't attend church regularly? Now that he has found a church that he wants to attend, you no longer respect his right to believe? Because it doesn't sound like his approach has changed from "my-religion-is-my-business"--he's going to the church of his choice, not insisting you go with him or otherwise imposing his business on others.
I have been to plenty of church services where the "praise and worship band" consists entirely of tattooed, spiky-haired, tough-looking guys who listen to Metallica when they're not playing praise songs. I mean, they may listen to Metallica and vote Republican, but still: the old time "rock-n-roll is the Devil's music" Fundamentalist Christianity is largely a stereotype at this point. Consider that h's auditioning for the worship band with his existing skills, presumably putting his punk rock and heavy metal musicianship to work--not switching to an acoustic guitar and singing "Jesus Loves Me."
You don't want him to be in your face about why you should believe. Don't get in his face about why he shouldn't. You should talk to him about it--to learn about his religious beliefs and why he chose this particular community. You can absolutely encourage him to think critically about the teachings of his church, but don't be a jerk about it. "Why is it that they say…?" provokes thought, whereas "That’s so stupid! That’s so hypocritical! How can you believe those fundies?" will make him defensive.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2009
I have been to plenty of church services where the "praise and worship band" consists entirely of tattooed, spiky-haired, tough-looking guys who listen to Metallica when they're not playing praise songs. I mean, they may listen to Metallica and vote Republican, but still: the old time "rock-n-roll is the Devil's music" Fundamentalist Christianity is largely a stereotype at this point. Consider that h's auditioning for the worship band with his existing skills, presumably putting his punk rock and heavy metal musicianship to work--not switching to an acoustic guitar and singing "Jesus Loves Me."
You don't want him to be in your face about why you should believe. Don't get in his face about why he shouldn't. You should talk to him about it--to learn about his religious beliefs and why he chose this particular community. You can absolutely encourage him to think critically about the teachings of his church, but don't be a jerk about it. "Why is it that they say…?" provokes thought, whereas "That’s so stupid! That’s so hypocritical! How can you believe those fundies?" will make him defensive.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2009
(I write all of the above as a firm non-believer.)
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:07 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:07 AM on February 13, 2009
If it's rattlesnakes and child brides, go ahead and say something. Otherwise, he's met new people, he's interested in this group, they aren't doing anything illegal...let him grow and evolve and make his own decisions.
posted by anniecat at 8:09 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by anniecat at 8:09 AM on February 13, 2009
He's been going with them to church and Bible study every night for the past few weeks. And now, the thing that made me really start to worry, is he said today that he's abstaining from caffeine because he wants to "cleanse his body". His love of Dr. Pepper is such that it's a full-on aspect of his personality, so this is a worrisome change. He also told my father that he's going to audition for the church's "praise and worship" band. This is a man who loves heavy metal and punk rock like most people love their children and has the Metallica pointed star symbol tattooed on his arm, so that he'd associate himself with awful saccharine anti-music worries me as well
So, let me get this straight. You don't know the denomination of the church he goes to or it's name. You have no idea what the type of worship service his church has, whether it's mainline, baptist, pentecostal, or what not. You basically have no knowledge accept the fact that he's been going to Bible study more and wants to try out for the "worship" band which is probably a contemporary Christian band that focuses on praise music / alternative music. Basically, the music team he wants to join sounds like the stuff he usually listens to, the lyrics and message are different.
There's nothing in your post that actually describes fundamentalist behavior. What it describes is seeker/contemporary Christian worship. Can that lead to crazy fundamentalism? Yes. Can it lead to a liberal theology? Yep. It depends on a) who's leading the Bible studies and b) the theological background of the church. What you're just describing as behaviors are very very similar to what a lot of young people do when they go to the large young oriented mega churches in the US. They can be rather fundie (and too conservative in some areas imo) but, honestly, they're nothing like fundamentalists in the bible belt.
Your brother is getting obsessed by his current church because, get this, it's brand new and exciting to him. You act the same way when you run into something brand new and exciting. You want to absorb all of it, participate it, be a part of it. There's a reason why early biblical writers and early church fathers required their leaders to have been in the church for awhile before they are elected - they understood that the newness of faith leads to becoming a quick zealot and losing perspective on the foundation of the faith and the fact that theology is not something that you can learn but rather something that you grow into and participate in throughout your life.
So, rather than being a zealot yourself in terms of atheism, understand that your brother is excited about something new. You might not like it and you might think it's harmful (which shows your prejudices more than it shows any problems on his part) but the easiest way for you to keep your relationship with him stable is to continue to be a good brother to him. Listen to him, support him, share in his excitement but ask questions, be honest, and love him. And get some actual facts before you get scared. After finally discovering a denomination of Christianity that I liked, I became just like your brother. It freaked out my entire family and most of my friends. My family is still waiting for me to "wake up" and go back to the way I was. My friends think the same way. But they still love me, are friends with me, and keep me grounded by asking questions. As long as you remain open to your brother and not remove yourself from his life, you will keep him from going off the deep end. If this church begins to tell him to withdraw from his family, from those who love him, then you know that this church is fundie crazy. And if you were an actual brother to him, he won't go. Don't let your zealotry towards your own opinions and beliefs lead you to reject your brother .
posted by Stynxno at 8:14 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
So, let me get this straight. You don't know the denomination of the church he goes to or it's name. You have no idea what the type of worship service his church has, whether it's mainline, baptist, pentecostal, or what not. You basically have no knowledge accept the fact that he's been going to Bible study more and wants to try out for the "worship" band which is probably a contemporary Christian band that focuses on praise music / alternative music. Basically, the music team he wants to join sounds like the stuff he usually listens to, the lyrics and message are different.
There's nothing in your post that actually describes fundamentalist behavior. What it describes is seeker/contemporary Christian worship. Can that lead to crazy fundamentalism? Yes. Can it lead to a liberal theology? Yep. It depends on a) who's leading the Bible studies and b) the theological background of the church. What you're just describing as behaviors are very very similar to what a lot of young people do when they go to the large young oriented mega churches in the US. They can be rather fundie (and too conservative in some areas imo) but, honestly, they're nothing like fundamentalists in the bible belt.
Your brother is getting obsessed by his current church because, get this, it's brand new and exciting to him. You act the same way when you run into something brand new and exciting. You want to absorb all of it, participate it, be a part of it. There's a reason why early biblical writers and early church fathers required their leaders to have been in the church for awhile before they are elected - they understood that the newness of faith leads to becoming a quick zealot and losing perspective on the foundation of the faith and the fact that theology is not something that you can learn but rather something that you grow into and participate in throughout your life.
So, rather than being a zealot yourself in terms of atheism, understand that your brother is excited about something new. You might not like it and you might think it's harmful (which shows your prejudices more than it shows any problems on his part) but the easiest way for you to keep your relationship with him stable is to continue to be a good brother to him. Listen to him, support him, share in his excitement but ask questions, be honest, and love him. And get some actual facts before you get scared. After finally discovering a denomination of Christianity that I liked, I became just like your brother. It freaked out my entire family and most of my friends. My family is still waiting for me to "wake up" and go back to the way I was. My friends think the same way. But they still love me, are friends with me, and keep me grounded by asking questions. As long as you remain open to your brother and not remove yourself from his life, you will keep him from going off the deep end. If this church begins to tell him to withdraw from his family, from those who love him, then you know that this church is fundie crazy. And if you were an actual brother to him, he won't go. Don't let your zealotry towards your own opinions and beliefs lead you to reject your brother .
posted by Stynxno at 8:14 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
I've had a lot of real-world run-ins with extreme Christian fundamentalism, and I've seen my share of "save me from the fundies" posts here on Metafilter. When I opened this question, I really expected it to be another one of those, where I would end up shaking my head at how ridiculous we Christians can be, and siding with the asker.
But honestly, this is tame. You are overreacting. He wants to play in the band? There are no rules about what style we have to play in church. Maybe his musical influences will bring a cool new dynamic to the band. The "big bald bassist with the flame shirt and chin beard who looks like he should be in a nu-metal band" is kind of a stereotype, I've seen that guy at about three different churches.
The caffeine thing is a bit more fringe-y and sets off a couple of alerts for me, but is it that big of a deal? If he was swearing off modern medicine, that would be one thing, but caffeine? Give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that the church doesn't forbid caffeine (though some extreme fundamentalists undoubtedly do), and that he's just giving it up because it was a big part of his life and he's sacrificing it to God. It's a discipline thing rather than a conviction of sin.
And besides that, caffeine isn't vitamin C. It's not good for you. It may not be exactly harmful, but it doesn't have positive health benefits. He will probably feel better without it. To take it a bit further, what if he was a drug addict, and drugs were a big part of his life—part of his personality—and he swore them off after joining a church and becoming serious about his faith? I am not comparing caffeine to drugs, but the principle is the same. Just because it was a big part of his life doesn't mean he shouldn't give it up.
(Disclosure: this is coming from a Christian caffeine drinker who plays in the band at church, and who is absolutely not a fundamentalist.)
posted by relucent at 8:26 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
But honestly, this is tame. You are overreacting. He wants to play in the band? There are no rules about what style we have to play in church. Maybe his musical influences will bring a cool new dynamic to the band. The "big bald bassist with the flame shirt and chin beard who looks like he should be in a nu-metal band" is kind of a stereotype, I've seen that guy at about three different churches.
The caffeine thing is a bit more fringe-y and sets off a couple of alerts for me, but is it that big of a deal? If he was swearing off modern medicine, that would be one thing, but caffeine? Give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that the church doesn't forbid caffeine (though some extreme fundamentalists undoubtedly do), and that he's just giving it up because it was a big part of his life and he's sacrificing it to God. It's a discipline thing rather than a conviction of sin.
And besides that, caffeine isn't vitamin C. It's not good for you. It may not be exactly harmful, but it doesn't have positive health benefits. He will probably feel better without it. To take it a bit further, what if he was a drug addict, and drugs were a big part of his life—part of his personality—and he swore them off after joining a church and becoming serious about his faith? I am not comparing caffeine to drugs, but the principle is the same. Just because it was a big part of his life doesn't mean he shouldn't give it up.
(Disclosure: this is coming from a Christian caffeine drinker who plays in the band at church, and who is absolutely not a fundamentalist.)
posted by relucent at 8:26 AM on February 13, 2009 [2 favorites]
Honestly this sounds a lot like a friend of mine. He went from group to group just looking for somewhere to fit in. When he got into something he'd really get into it, then, later he'd be into something else. I doubt he really believed much of any of it along the way, but for him it was a game to play and a game that came with friends.
One thing about fringe groups is that the members can instantly bond over that topic. That topic allows for connections so it becomes a bigger part of their life than it probably would have been otherwise.
There is fellowship in being different.
I've had friends find that kind of fellowship in Heavy metal, Paganism, Racism, Christianity, S&M, Anime. Cosplay, Wicca, Indie music, pot... Things they'd not have gotten into if it didn't have a human connection. Sometimes I'd have a friend get into something they didn't like just to be a part of the scene (noise rock).
It's hard to be the big fish if the world is your pond, it's easier to find a different pond. Maybe he's finding a smaller pond.
posted by magikker at 8:47 AM on February 13, 2009
One thing about fringe groups is that the members can instantly bond over that topic. That topic allows for connections so it becomes a bigger part of their life than it probably would have been otherwise.
There is fellowship in being different.
I've had friends find that kind of fellowship in Heavy metal, Paganism, Racism, Christianity, S&M, Anime. Cosplay, Wicca, Indie music, pot... Things they'd not have gotten into if it didn't have a human connection. Sometimes I'd have a friend get into something they didn't like just to be a part of the scene (noise rock).
It's hard to be the big fish if the world is your pond, it's easier to find a different pond. Maybe he's finding a smaller pond.
posted by magikker at 8:47 AM on February 13, 2009
Maybe your brother told your father not to tell you because he was afraid you'd respond exactly as you have.
I believe your concern is genuine. Instead of having a panic attack, talk to your brother. Let him know that your interested in his life without being judgmental. Then actually don't be judgmental.
posted by 26.2 at 8:56 AM on February 13, 2009
I believe your concern is genuine. Instead of having a panic attack, talk to your brother. Let him know that your interested in his life without being judgmental. Then actually don't be judgmental.
posted by 26.2 at 8:56 AM on February 13, 2009
But I just have visions of him asking me repeatedly about why I'm not saved and our relationship souring.
Then you should make sure the opposite doesn't happen, and you shouldn't repeatedly bash his church or his choices and risk souring your relationship. Christians aren't the only zealots out there. And the best defense against this, if it happens, is to remind him of when you lived and let live, and ask that he give you the same respect.
If it were one of my siblings I would treat this like any other new and slightly obsessive interest. Ask enough questions to keep up with his life but not so much that you seem like you're trying to judge or control. Stay involved enough and be willing to point out when it's going against his personality ("You know, I never thought you'd be the type to totally change yourself for a girl" or "What led you to protest Metallica as being the spawn of Satan? You used to love them so much!") but realize that, like most shiny new obsessions, this one will likely tone down in a little while. And it really is none of your business in the first place.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 9:19 AM on February 13, 2009
Then you should make sure the opposite doesn't happen, and you shouldn't repeatedly bash his church or his choices and risk souring your relationship. Christians aren't the only zealots out there. And the best defense against this, if it happens, is to remind him of when you lived and let live, and ask that he give you the same respect.
If it were one of my siblings I would treat this like any other new and slightly obsessive interest. Ask enough questions to keep up with his life but not so much that you seem like you're trying to judge or control. Stay involved enough and be willing to point out when it's going against his personality ("You know, I never thought you'd be the type to totally change yourself for a girl" or "What led you to protest Metallica as being the spawn of Satan? You used to love them so much!") but realize that, like most shiny new obsessions, this one will likely tone down in a little while. And it really is none of your business in the first place.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 9:19 AM on February 13, 2009
You're worried because he's quitting an unhealthy habit and he's changing what music he listens to based on his social environment? Do you really have nothing better to do?
posted by dagnyscott at 9:24 AM on February 13, 2009
posted by dagnyscott at 9:24 AM on February 13, 2009
It's important to keep in mind that a lot of largeish churches put a strong emphasis on having a lot of social activity available, all week long. When you say he's "going to church" every night, is chilling at music practice with some people he met, and messing around with the church's motorcycle club and then hitting the wednesday service?
Or is he going to the 6-hour prayer vigils every night?
Those two paths imply different scenarios, too.
posted by verb at 9:31 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or is he going to the 6-hour prayer vigils every night?
Those two paths imply different scenarios, too.
posted by verb at 9:31 AM on February 13, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you're not uncomfortable with this, how about you actually tell us what church this is, or ask your brother if you aren't sure? It might be one of the independent fundamentalist churches that don't belong to a sect, but chances are if they have the resources to do something every night, they likely have some sort of presence one mefite could pick up on. And many churches of a certain size just happen to have something going on every night, and new converts tend to be really excitable and really big on the strict interpretation of the church's beliefs. Don't be surprised if he becomes really politically conservative; it'll likely become more moderate in a couple years or so if he sticks with this church that long.
It sounds like you aren't entirely sure how fundamentalist they are. There's a very good chance they're moderate and you're brother's just being zealous about his new belief.
What I suggest is instead of acting concerned about your brother, tell him you'd like to know more about the church, i.e. what makes it different from other churches, its history, has he met anyone interesting, maybe ask to check it out sometime. I think your brother might be asking your dad not to parlay too many details to you because he thinks you'd be upset or scared for him and not try to understand his beliefs. Put his mind at ease by being friendly about it, and maybe try to get into the mindset that you're interested in what his church is like rather than vetting it for extremist views. That way, you'll be more at ease, and you'll still be able to intervene if you realize something is going too far or the church really is extreme.
posted by mccarty.tim at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2009
It sounds like you aren't entirely sure how fundamentalist they are. There's a very good chance they're moderate and you're brother's just being zealous about his new belief.
What I suggest is instead of acting concerned about your brother, tell him you'd like to know more about the church, i.e. what makes it different from other churches, its history, has he met anyone interesting, maybe ask to check it out sometime. I think your brother might be asking your dad not to parlay too many details to you because he thinks you'd be upset or scared for him and not try to understand his beliefs. Put his mind at ease by being friendly about it, and maybe try to get into the mindset that you're interested in what his church is like rather than vetting it for extremist views. That way, you'll be more at ease, and you'll still be able to intervene if you realize something is going too far or the church really is extreme.
posted by mccarty.tim at 9:46 AM on February 13, 2009
Most humans have similar motivations, it's how we act on those motivations that creates difference and misunderstanding. If you were to sit down and talk with your brother, and by talk I mean *listen*, would you be able to get at his motivation for going to bible study? Assuming he hasn't totally drunk the kool-aid yet (ok, not a great metaphor, but we all know it was Flavor-aid anyway), I suspect you would and you guys could find common ground. Once you have mutual understanding, it makes any criticism of the church go down much easier and hell, you might even change *your* mind.
I also think it is worthwhile for you to attend a service or two as well. It sounds as though you're operating from a few (well-founded, imo) assumptions and it would be good to actually understand the new church before you go driving any wedges in your relationship.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:49 AM on February 13, 2009
I also think it is worthwhile for you to attend a service or two as well. It sounds as though you're operating from a few (well-founded, imo) assumptions and it would be good to actually understand the new church before you go driving any wedges in your relationship.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:49 AM on February 13, 2009
Why don't you ask to go with your brother to his new church. Don't lie and say you're about to convert or anything, just tell him (and them if they ask) that your brother is important to you, and that if he's this active in something, you'd like to see what it's like.
Then, while there, refrain from being a giant asshole, sit, listen, and observe. If they start trying to get you talking saying something firmly about how your not comfortable talking just yet.
This shows you care enough to spend some time learning about the issue, and your brother. If he starts to alarm you, you could do more research into Christianity. Attend some other churches and show him that mainline Christianity usually doesn't involve (whatever alarming element you've discovered). Be willing to devote some time to his point of view, time measured in hours not minutes.
Of course, this is much more difficult than sitting him down and saying "I've never criticized your foolish belief in God before, but now I feel the need to explain why your beliefs are poisonous to me." Or if you choose to still say this, you'll be able to add. "Poisonous because of the way they yelled gay slurs from the pulpit one of those times I went with you" (In the unlikely event that happens.)
posted by pseudonick at 10:13 AM on February 13, 2009
Then, while there, refrain from being a giant asshole, sit, listen, and observe. If they start trying to get you talking saying something firmly about how your not comfortable talking just yet.
This shows you care enough to spend some time learning about the issue, and your brother. If he starts to alarm you, you could do more research into Christianity. Attend some other churches and show him that mainline Christianity usually doesn't involve (whatever alarming element you've discovered). Be willing to devote some time to his point of view, time measured in hours not minutes.
Of course, this is much more difficult than sitting him down and saying "I've never criticized your foolish belief in God before, but now I feel the need to explain why your beliefs are poisonous to me." Or if you choose to still say this, you'll be able to add. "Poisonous because of the way they yelled gay slurs from the pulpit one of those times I went with you" (In the unlikely event that happens.)
posted by pseudonick at 10:13 AM on February 13, 2009
Going to a service or two with him, would also build his cred with his new crew if this group is as outreach oriented as it seems. So this would give you some additional relationship capital by going to a service with him. (remembering the key: refrain from being a giant asshole while there)
Costs and benefits (to you):
(-) 2 hours of time
(+) Brother looks good to his new friends, making him appreciate you.
(+) Generally makes you look like a good, open minded, guy.
(+) You get insight to what he's actually up to with these people, maybe a better understanding of your brother's inner life, and can make informed decisions about how to proceed after that.
posted by pseudonick at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2009
Costs and benefits (to you):
(-) 2 hours of time
(+) Brother looks good to his new friends, making him appreciate you.
(+) Generally makes you look like a good, open minded, guy.
(+) You get insight to what he's actually up to with these people, maybe a better understanding of your brother's inner life, and can make informed decisions about how to proceed after that.
posted by pseudonick at 10:40 AM on February 13, 2009
I have been in this exact same situation, actually. In my case, my brother was relatively young, feeling kind of lost, and I think also a bit rebellious (my family is not the church-going sort).
What I did:
- I never badmouthed church or religion. Instead, I talked pretty honestly about my own struggles with religion and my exploration of it. I gave him some of the resources that had helped me, such as this book and this quiz.
- I encouraged him to try out at least few different churches to see where he fit best. I asked him to consider how his core beliefs (especially about gay and lesbian rights, birth control, women's equality, etc) matched up with his church's, and that my concern was only that the church he was attending didn't quite seem to match up to the brother I knew.
- I did not do these things all at once, but tried to keep up a running dialogue about it. I asked him regularly about his church activities, the way I did about other parts of his life, and encouraged him to talk to me anytime if he needed. Basically, I stressed that I cared about him and wanted him to remain in my life no matter what.
posted by susanvance at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2009
What I did:
- I never badmouthed church or religion. Instead, I talked pretty honestly about my own struggles with religion and my exploration of it. I gave him some of the resources that had helped me, such as this book and this quiz.
- I encouraged him to try out at least few different churches to see where he fit best. I asked him to consider how his core beliefs (especially about gay and lesbian rights, birth control, women's equality, etc) matched up with his church's, and that my concern was only that the church he was attending didn't quite seem to match up to the brother I knew.
- I did not do these things all at once, but tried to keep up a running dialogue about it. I asked him regularly about his church activities, the way I did about other parts of his life, and encouraged him to talk to me anytime if he needed. Basically, I stressed that I cared about him and wanted him to remain in my life no matter what.
posted by susanvance at 11:08 AM on February 13, 2009
I think some people have a tendency to be more skeptical and worried about group activities and therefore start out being more judgmental when people around them get involved with things they don't understand. Sometimes, people jump in head-first to new activities - whether it's at their job, grad school, church or something kind of self-help group, or a hobby like a martial arts school - some people will attend every day and become hardcore full-time all-in members, spending all their free time at the location, getting more involved at the extra-curricular / social level, while others will just go as necessary to fulfill requirements or get some basic interest met. But those high-commitment members are not always joining cults! Sometimes, they are just that kind of people - if they're gonna do it, they're gonna really do it.
I am not like that myself - like you I'm a 'sensible atheist', and as such I don't tend to get all that enthusiastic, even when I find groups that I like... I always retain some skepticism and recognize off the bat it's not going to solve all my problems & I won't relate to everyone. But I sometimes wish I didn't think like this, because i have seen people around me find a lot of happiness by being able to jump into things head first.
Until your brother is actually hurting himself or others - not just changing who he is, but doing something that is leading to abuse or psychological pain or something - you do not need to stop him from being enthusiastic about a new group he's joined.
posted by mdn at 1:20 PM on February 13, 2009
I am not like that myself - like you I'm a 'sensible atheist', and as such I don't tend to get all that enthusiastic, even when I find groups that I like... I always retain some skepticism and recognize off the bat it's not going to solve all my problems & I won't relate to everyone. But I sometimes wish I didn't think like this, because i have seen people around me find a lot of happiness by being able to jump into things head first.
Until your brother is actually hurting himself or others - not just changing who he is, but doing something that is leading to abuse or psychological pain or something - you do not need to stop him from being enthusiastic about a new group he's joined.
posted by mdn at 1:20 PM on February 13, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks everyone, this has been helpful. I think you're all probably right that at this point I'm probably overreacting to some minor changes, but I'm going to keep an eye on the situation and make an effort to learn more about this group. I'm actually leaning towards this just being a case of youthful exuberance (he is 22) and desire for the girl, it's really just the amount of time he's investing in this that worries me. I don't know if asking to involve myself in his bible study group or church services would be a good idea: he is well aware of my atheism and attitude towards religion and would be suspicious of my motivations, but I will make an effort to engage him in discussion about this without making it seem like I'm condemning it. Thanks again, hive mind.
posted by DecemberBoy at 4:33 PM on February 13, 2009
posted by DecemberBoy at 4:33 PM on February 13, 2009
Find out the name of the church and its leadership... Google!
If its a cult, chances are, it's on one of the anti-cult websites and there are reports of problems. Do this before attending anything because many, many people go to cult-like groups believing "Oh, I'm above all that, it can't affect me" and those are the most vulnerable to their tactics because they don't believe that they will work. I've met a lot of smart, kind, cool people who wound up in cults-- do not underestimate them. And the daily attendance and quick changes are a potential warning sign-- or could just be enthusiasm for a new church that's fine.
posted by Maias at 4:38 PM on February 13, 2009
If its a cult, chances are, it's on one of the anti-cult websites and there are reports of problems. Do this before attending anything because many, many people go to cult-like groups believing "Oh, I'm above all that, it can't affect me" and those are the most vulnerable to their tactics because they don't believe that they will work. I've met a lot of smart, kind, cool people who wound up in cults-- do not underestimate them. And the daily attendance and quick changes are a potential warning sign-- or could just be enthusiasm for a new church that's fine.
posted by Maias at 4:38 PM on February 13, 2009
Response by poster: Someone asked me this in a MeMail and some others have wondered here in the thread, so here's what I know about the group: they are a non-affiliated evangelical group. They have an actual church and are not handling snakes in a barn somewhere, but this is definitely less mainstream than if he were going to, say, a Methodist or Lutheran church. Their beliefs are definitely not anywhere near what could be called "liberal". Those are the details I know, and I think the term "fundies" really pretty much already covered these details ("fundie" = non-mainstream, non-affiliated evangelical), but there you go.
posted by DecemberBoy at 11:54 AM on February 15, 2009
posted by DecemberBoy at 11:54 AM on February 15, 2009
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If the biggest concern you have is that he's abstaining from Dr. Pepper and heavy metal, it's definitely not your business. Let him live his life unless he's getting hurt or hurting other people.
posted by j1950 at 9:23 PM on February 12, 2009 [3 favorites]