School Visiting
February 6, 2009 7:09 AM Subscribe
I'm visiting elementary schools to determine which one my daughter should go to. What questions should I be asking?
My daughter starts kindergarten in the fall. Here in Seattle, you don't go to the school down the road, but you can choose from any school you wish (so long as there's room). Thus, the need to visit schools and see what they're like.
What sort of questions should I be asking? What should I be looking for?
My daughter starts kindergarten in the fall. Here in Seattle, you don't go to the school down the road, but you can choose from any school you wish (so long as there's room). Thus, the need to visit schools and see what they're like.
What sort of questions should I be asking? What should I be looking for?
If it's common for families to choose to send their kids to the neighborhood school, that might be a really good choice. That way, she goes to school with kids that live near her, making it easy to set up play times.
posted by fructose at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by fructose at 7:25 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
fructose does make a good point... Our son's school is about a ten minute drive away, so none of his school friends live in our neighbourhood and getting him outside to play is a challenge. But, then again, the kids in our neighbourhood often seem to be living out scenes from "Lord of the Flies", so that may not be a bad thing.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:28 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by KokuRyu at 7:28 AM on February 6, 2009
Response by poster: Why not? A school should be part of the community you live in.
It's a relic of the desegregation plan. It does allow parents to shift their kids out of underperforming schools pretty easily, if they're willing to provide their own transport.
Our "neighborhood school" isn't bad, at least according to the test scores. But there's one just to the south of us that's even better.
posted by dw at 7:34 AM on February 6, 2009
It's a relic of the desegregation plan. It does allow parents to shift their kids out of underperforming schools pretty easily, if they're willing to provide their own transport.
Our "neighborhood school" isn't bad, at least according to the test scores. But there's one just to the south of us that's even better.
posted by dw at 7:34 AM on February 6, 2009
Response by poster: And time-wise, we have about six schools within a fifteen minute drive, three within five minutes. Going to the "school that's closest" comes down to feet.
posted by dw at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by dw at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: Class size
Full-time assistant for kindergarten?
Will there be recess every day?
Availability of music/art/PE. How often?
Are the teachers qualified to teach Kindergarten? Do they have a degree in early education?
If you think your neighborhood school is decent, I would strongly advise attending this one. Mornings will be easier and as others have mentioned, you'll be closer to your neighborhood friends. Also, and added benefit is that you can walk/bike with your child to school. If the schools are run by the same district there may not be much difference in academic programs and requirements.
posted by Fairchild at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Full-time assistant for kindergarten?
Will there be recess every day?
Availability of music/art/PE. How often?
Are the teachers qualified to teach Kindergarten? Do they have a degree in early education?
If you think your neighborhood school is decent, I would strongly advise attending this one. Mornings will be easier and as others have mentioned, you'll be closer to your neighborhood friends. Also, and added benefit is that you can walk/bike with your child to school. If the schools are run by the same district there may not be much difference in academic programs and requirements.
posted by Fairchild at 7:38 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If your child has special needs you should certainly ask about their ability to accommodate those needs. Since your child will be attending for several years, consider the diversity, age, and experience of the teaching staff. IMHO a good school has a mix of experienced and newer teachers, and its always good to see male teachers in elementary school. Be wary of schools with a high percentage of new teachers- why the turnover?
What are the common facilities like, outside the classroom? A good gym/playground/library/ bathrooms? And of course you should check the test scores of the school over the last few years.
posted by TDIpod at 7:42 AM on February 6, 2009
What are the common facilities like, outside the classroom? A good gym/playground/library/ bathrooms? And of course you should check the test scores of the school over the last few years.
posted by TDIpod at 7:42 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: -Class size,
-availability of special programs (ie my son's school has a math/ science focus, the school around the corner is a Spanish immersion magnet) ,
-school standardized test averages and trends (should be able to find online),
-teacher qualifications and years of service,
-is there a Staff Development Specialist on-site,
-is there a Reading Specialist on-site,
-how active and well-funded is the PTA,
-does the school have before and after-care available,
-how do the staff feel about their principal- good relationship?
-diversity of student population
-enrollment projections- is the school growing? (will class size increase...)
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 7:54 AM on February 6, 2009
-availability of special programs (ie my son's school has a math/ science focus, the school around the corner is a Spanish immersion magnet) ,
-school standardized test averages and trends (should be able to find online),
-teacher qualifications and years of service,
-is there a Staff Development Specialist on-site,
-is there a Reading Specialist on-site,
-how active and well-funded is the PTA,
-does the school have before and after-care available,
-how do the staff feel about their principal- good relationship?
-diversity of student population
-enrollment projections- is the school growing? (will class size increase...)
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 7:54 AM on February 6, 2009
Talk to the teachers. Do they seem to "get it"? You can have all the great stuff mentioned above, but a good teacher will make all the difference...
posted by gjc at 8:11 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by gjc at 8:11 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: I would suggest trying to find ways to gauge the school's social culture. You can look at hard facts like test scores all day long, but they won't necessarily give you a feeling for how your own kiddo would feel about going there on a daily basis. How the teachers relate to their charges and their peers... whether the school just talks about respect and confidence or whether they actually work to instill it... you have to see this stuff first hand.
Do the elementary schools in your area have a weekly or bi-weekly assembly? In our district, these are always on Friday morning. I would plan to attend one of these (maybe two -- one alone and one with your daughter). I would specifically try to attend a regular old assembly, not an end-of-year awards program or one where a famous celebrity was appearing. I think you'd get a great snapshot of the school culture in that one hour. If someone attended the Friday assembly at my kid's school, they'd witness:
- How the children behave as a class group and en masse. How does the faculty handle the student body? Are the kids mostly well-behaved, but still allowed to have fun and be jocular and enjoy the assembly? There is a line between too much crowd control and not enough.
- How do individual behavior issues get addressed? Can a teacher manage a pair of rowdy jostling kids with a stern look, or does she have to repeatedly shush them and separate them?
- How does the faculty relate to one another? Do the teachers seem to be interacting with the administrators, or is there an invisible "us & them wall"?
- How do the faculty and student body handle the "ritual" elements of the assembly (such as the pledge, the school song, whatever)? Do the children seem to be reasonably engaged?
- How do the children handle guest speakers?
- Are there any recognition events ("Student of the Week", best library behavior, whatever)? Does the school seem to be rewarding and recognizing the children in a way that fits with your family's values?
- In the older grades (3rd, 4th, 5th), the children will tend to cluster with their friends to sit at these assemblies. How do the teachers seem to handle or interact with the children "outside the circle", so to speak?
- Where are the special needs kids? Are they mainstreamed and part of the other classes? Or are they in their own group? Does that group appear to be implicitly marginalized in the group setting -- whether by other kids, or by the faculty?
- How many parents are attending this assembly? Consider that they are likely having to give up work time to be there. What's the ratio of moms to dads at the assembly?
Obviously the questions and things you will look for will vary based on your own child's academic and social needs, and your family's priorities. But if you can get in to one of these assemblies, I think you'll find a wealth of information if you know how to look for it. (Think Patrick Jane from "The Mentalist.")
posted by pineapple at 8:12 AM on February 6, 2009
Do the elementary schools in your area have a weekly or bi-weekly assembly? In our district, these are always on Friday morning. I would plan to attend one of these (maybe two -- one alone and one with your daughter). I would specifically try to attend a regular old assembly, not an end-of-year awards program or one where a famous celebrity was appearing. I think you'd get a great snapshot of the school culture in that one hour. If someone attended the Friday assembly at my kid's school, they'd witness:
- How the children behave as a class group and en masse. How does the faculty handle the student body? Are the kids mostly well-behaved, but still allowed to have fun and be jocular and enjoy the assembly? There is a line between too much crowd control and not enough.
- How do individual behavior issues get addressed? Can a teacher manage a pair of rowdy jostling kids with a stern look, or does she have to repeatedly shush them and separate them?
- How does the faculty relate to one another? Do the teachers seem to be interacting with the administrators, or is there an invisible "us & them wall"?
- How do the faculty and student body handle the "ritual" elements of the assembly (such as the pledge, the school song, whatever)? Do the children seem to be reasonably engaged?
- How do the children handle guest speakers?
- Are there any recognition events ("Student of the Week", best library behavior, whatever)? Does the school seem to be rewarding and recognizing the children in a way that fits with your family's values?
- In the older grades (3rd, 4th, 5th), the children will tend to cluster with their friends to sit at these assemblies. How do the teachers seem to handle or interact with the children "outside the circle", so to speak?
- Where are the special needs kids? Are they mainstreamed and part of the other classes? Or are they in their own group? Does that group appear to be implicitly marginalized in the group setting -- whether by other kids, or by the faculty?
- How many parents are attending this assembly? Consider that they are likely having to give up work time to be there. What's the ratio of moms to dads at the assembly?
Obviously the questions and things you will look for will vary based on your own child's academic and social needs, and your family's priorities. But if you can get in to one of these assemblies, I think you'll find a wealth of information if you know how to look for it. (Think Patrick Jane from "The Mentalist.")
posted by pineapple at 8:12 AM on February 6, 2009
Not a parent, but I did attend elementary school in Seattle in the early 90s. In retrospect, one thing that struck me about the experience, and that I remember my stolidly East Coast parents being iffy about, was the very informal nature of the teacher-student relationship. It was all first names, we heard about their personal lives, their personal lives sometimes joined them in the classroom, and so on.
Granted, this wasn't SPS, but The Evergreen School (in Shoreline) which is pretty alternative / progressive. I don't think it had any real effect on the teaching- which was excellent- but it was very different than the "yes, ma'am, no ma'am" atmosphere I experienced when we moved to the East Coast. Depending on what you're comfortable with, this might be a factor. Figuring out whether the kids call the teacher "Miss Jones" or "Jane" will tell you something about the culture of the school.
Also, we moved before this became a real issue, but I remember there being intense competition for the private school slots beginning in middle school and then again in high school. If you're even considering the idea of switching to private schools in the future, take a hard look at the acceptance rates from the schools you're looking at. I remember Lakeside had a quota of 2-3 from Evergreen, which was the source of much angst. If you're Christian / cool with Christian schools, there are more private options. Otherwise, it's basically Bush and Lakeside, if I remember correctly.
posted by charmcityblues at 8:23 AM on February 6, 2009
Granted, this wasn't SPS, but The Evergreen School (in Shoreline) which is pretty alternative / progressive. I don't think it had any real effect on the teaching- which was excellent- but it was very different than the "yes, ma'am, no ma'am" atmosphere I experienced when we moved to the East Coast. Depending on what you're comfortable with, this might be a factor. Figuring out whether the kids call the teacher "Miss Jones" or "Jane" will tell you something about the culture of the school.
Also, we moved before this became a real issue, but I remember there being intense competition for the private school slots beginning in middle school and then again in high school. If you're even considering the idea of switching to private schools in the future, take a hard look at the acceptance rates from the schools you're looking at. I remember Lakeside had a quota of 2-3 from Evergreen, which was the source of much angst. If you're Christian / cool with Christian schools, there are more private options. Otherwise, it's basically Bush and Lakeside, if I remember correctly.
posted by charmcityblues at 8:23 AM on February 6, 2009
The US Department of Education publishes -- in Excel-readable downloads, no less -- statistics for public schools which you can sort by address, grade level, etc. Versions of this data are available at GreatSchools.net and other commerical sites, as well.
One of more important statistics in these downloads that won't be obvious to you on a visual inspection of the school is the free and discounted lunch program participation. There is (sadly) a strong and inverse correlation between absolute school performance and free/discounted lunch program participation. And while some of those schools do a good (and noble) job in trying to mitigae the disadvantages that poor children tend to bring to the classroom,very rarely do they focus on the needs of children of educated middle class parents.
posted by MattD at 8:25 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
One of more important statistics in these downloads that won't be obvious to you on a visual inspection of the school is the free and discounted lunch program participation. There is (sadly) a strong and inverse correlation between absolute school performance and free/discounted lunch program participation. And while some of those schools do a good (and noble) job in trying to mitigae the disadvantages that poor children tend to bring to the classroom,very rarely do they focus on the needs of children of educated middle class parents.
posted by MattD at 8:25 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
There is (sadly) a strong and inverse correlation between absolute school performance and free/discounted lunch program participation.
MattD, do you have a source for this? As I was a student who both received free lunches throughout my public school education and was in gifted/honors classes, I'm at a loss as to what disadvantages I brought to the classroom and how my educational needs were different than those of the middle class kids'.
dw, it might seem silly, but I'd definitely consider any school that might be in walking distance for your kid, if your neighborhood is safe. I started walking to school alone at 10 (three blocks), and it really freed up time for my mother and forced me to be accountable for my own time management.
Also, art classes. And talk to the gym teachers. In my elementary school, gym class was where major teasing/bullying went on, and the fact that the gym teachers were wholly focused on competitive sports rahter than broader physical play didn't help matters at all.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:44 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
MattD, do you have a source for this? As I was a student who both received free lunches throughout my public school education and was in gifted/honors classes, I'm at a loss as to what disadvantages I brought to the classroom and how my educational needs were different than those of the middle class kids'.
dw, it might seem silly, but I'd definitely consider any school that might be in walking distance for your kid, if your neighborhood is safe. I started walking to school alone at 10 (three blocks), and it really freed up time for my mother and forced me to be accountable for my own time management.
Also, art classes. And talk to the gym teachers. In my elementary school, gym class was where major teasing/bullying went on, and the fact that the gym teachers were wholly focused on competitive sports rahter than broader physical play didn't help matters at all.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:44 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Besides asking about special programs and art, music, etc, I would also ask about the level of parent involvement in the school. How active is the PTA? My friend who teaches second grade says that increased parent participation usually leads to much fewer behavioural problems, and a better learning environment for all.
posted by bluefly at 9:03 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by bluefly at 9:03 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: Can you go to the school and observe a class? Not just kindergarten, because in my experiences kindergartens tend to be more uniformly good than other grades. Sit in on a third grade class or something.
Watch what the kids are doing. Are they only listening and working as the teacher talks, or are they talking to each other and working together? How does the teacher interact with the students - are they friendly, supportive, "with-it"?
Check out what kind of thing they are working on. Is it a fill-in-the-blanks worksheet or something more interesting (not that there's no place for worksheets when used judiciously). Does the teacher get them to think deeply about the work? (Asking "why" questions)
Check out what's on the walls. Is there student work displayed? Look at it. Are there lots of kitchy store-made posters or are there things the student and teacher created together?
Think about the classroom space. Are there good books? Comfortable places to sit? A place for whole-class meetings?
Then, spend some time in the halls. Is it noisy? Are there lots of sad-looking children marching in very straight, marital lines?
You can ask questions too, which I guess are largely dependent on what kind of education you want for your child, but in my experience teachers and administrators sometimes promise more than they deliver when it comes to responding to questions. See it for yourself.
posted by mai at 9:08 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Watch what the kids are doing. Are they only listening and working as the teacher talks, or are they talking to each other and working together? How does the teacher interact with the students - are they friendly, supportive, "with-it"?
Check out what kind of thing they are working on. Is it a fill-in-the-blanks worksheet or something more interesting (not that there's no place for worksheets when used judiciously). Does the teacher get them to think deeply about the work? (Asking "why" questions)
Check out what's on the walls. Is there student work displayed? Look at it. Are there lots of kitchy store-made posters or are there things the student and teacher created together?
Think about the classroom space. Are there good books? Comfortable places to sit? A place for whole-class meetings?
Then, spend some time in the halls. Is it noisy? Are there lots of sad-looking children marching in very straight, marital lines?
You can ask questions too, which I guess are largely dependent on what kind of education you want for your child, but in my experience teachers and administrators sometimes promise more than they deliver when it comes to responding to questions. See it for yourself.
posted by mai at 9:08 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
How involved are parents? What's teacher turnover like?
I have found that parental involvement (both in the PTA or similar organization, and directly in the classrooms) is probably the best indicator of a great school. A consistent staff enhances that.
Our school appears distinctly average with regard to test scores, but this to me is no indication of how great the school actually is. The test scores simply reflect the large number of English learners, which in turn reflects the neighborhood demographics, and to me that's a feature rather than a bug. I value the socioeconomic and cultural diversity of my city and therefore I value that in my children's school.
posted by padraigin at 9:15 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I have found that parental involvement (both in the PTA or similar organization, and directly in the classrooms) is probably the best indicator of a great school. A consistent staff enhances that.
Our school appears distinctly average with regard to test scores, but this to me is no indication of how great the school actually is. The test scores simply reflect the large number of English learners, which in turn reflects the neighborhood demographics, and to me that's a feature rather than a bug. I value the socioeconomic and cultural diversity of my city and therefore I value that in my children's school.
posted by padraigin at 9:15 AM on February 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bring her with you to both schools' Open House night.
posted by mdonley at 9:20 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by mdonley at 9:20 AM on February 6, 2009
it had a hot lunch program and lots of after-school care spaces, we decided to look for something else
I would like to point out that at my daughter's after school program they do African drumming, Tai Chi, martial arts, drama, and other art programs. True, she has to interact with poor kids whose parents have to work, but I don't think it has had any adverse affects on her yet. Also, they serve hot lunch at her school! We taught her to never eat lunch next to someone who has to "buy" lunch, so we avoided that awkward situation.
posted by Wayman Tisdale at 9:26 AM on February 6, 2009
I would like to point out that at my daughter's after school program they do African drumming, Tai Chi, martial arts, drama, and other art programs. True, she has to interact with poor kids whose parents have to work, but I don't think it has had any adverse affects on her yet. Also, they serve hot lunch at her school! We taught her to never eat lunch next to someone who has to "buy" lunch, so we avoided that awkward situation.
posted by Wayman Tisdale at 9:26 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: PhoBWanKenobi: Here's a source. "At the district level, the results suggest a significantly large negative correlation between science performance and percentage of students receiving free/reduced lunch."
Anyway, here are some questions I would ask:
- Does the school have a 'zero-tolerance' drug policy that includes over-the-counter medication? In the case of prescription drugs, can a student simply have a note or does the medication have to be dispensed by the school nurse? The answers to these questions can tell you a lot about how authoritarian the administration is and how much they do or do not trust the students and parents.
- What is the school's technology program like? Do they seem to be spending a lot of money and effort on technology for its own sake or is it only used when there's a clear benefit to education? An example of the former would be a lot of computers sitting idle in classrooms or the library.
- How much opportunity for physical activity are students given? At least some every day is best. Are they given opportunities for both directed (e.g., gym class) and undirected (e.g., recess) activity? Your child may need the structure of organized activity or may do best just running around a field. Does this continue throughout elementary school? Except for children involved in organized sports, the end of regular PE in school often signals the beginning of couch potato life. The school can help prevent that.
- Ask about art, music, and foreign language. These are some of the easy targets for budget cuts, so it can tell you a lot about the school's historical budget situation and where its priorities are. If the school lacks these programs, consider whether you have the time and resources to supplement at home.
- Ask about opportunities for parent involvement. For example, can (and do) parents help out with special events like an Easter egg hunt, Halloween haunted house, etc.
- Ask about homework. When do students start having regular homework assignments and what is the homework load like? Bear in mind that, until good habits are formed, more homework means more work for you, too.
posted by jedicus at 9:28 AM on February 6, 2009
Anyway, here are some questions I would ask:
- Does the school have a 'zero-tolerance' drug policy that includes over-the-counter medication? In the case of prescription drugs, can a student simply have a note or does the medication have to be dispensed by the school nurse? The answers to these questions can tell you a lot about how authoritarian the administration is and how much they do or do not trust the students and parents.
- What is the school's technology program like? Do they seem to be spending a lot of money and effort on technology for its own sake or is it only used when there's a clear benefit to education? An example of the former would be a lot of computers sitting idle in classrooms or the library.
- How much opportunity for physical activity are students given? At least some every day is best. Are they given opportunities for both directed (e.g., gym class) and undirected (e.g., recess) activity? Your child may need the structure of organized activity or may do best just running around a field. Does this continue throughout elementary school? Except for children involved in organized sports, the end of regular PE in school often signals the beginning of couch potato life. The school can help prevent that.
- Ask about art, music, and foreign language. These are some of the easy targets for budget cuts, so it can tell you a lot about the school's historical budget situation and where its priorities are. If the school lacks these programs, consider whether you have the time and resources to supplement at home.
- Ask about opportunities for parent involvement. For example, can (and do) parents help out with special events like an Easter egg hunt, Halloween haunted house, etc.
- Ask about homework. When do students start having regular homework assignments and what is the homework load like? Bear in mind that, until good habits are formed, more homework means more work for you, too.
posted by jedicus at 9:28 AM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: Teacher, teacher, teacher. Almost every element of the school is set by the board. But the wrong teacher can make a year hell where the right teacher can make it a really positive, pleasant experience. Find a teacher you like. And it's just kindergarten - it's not like they're going to fail. Objective #1 of kindergarten is getting your child to enjoy going to school. Almost all open enrollment districts will let you change schools later if there's room.
posted by GuyZero at 10:19 AM on February 6, 2009
posted by GuyZero at 10:19 AM on February 6, 2009
it had a hot lunch program and lots of after-school care spaces, we decided to look for something else
I would like to point out that at my daughter's after school program they do African drumming, Tai Chi, martial arts, drama, and other art programs. True, she has to interact with poor kids whose parents have to work, but I don't think it has had any adverse affects on her yet. Also, they serve hot lunch at her school! We taught her to never eat lunch next to someone who has to "buy" lunch, so we avoided that awkward situation.
Holistically speaking, yes, hot lunches improve student performance. However, we can provide a bag lunch for our child and we were really more interested in learning about the kinds of academic programs a school offers, as well as the school culture.
If school lunches and daycare are the main attractions of a school, it seems like the school is more interested in social work (which is fine if that's what you need) rather than actual learning.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:32 AM on February 6, 2009
I would like to point out that at my daughter's after school program they do African drumming, Tai Chi, martial arts, drama, and other art programs. True, she has to interact with poor kids whose parents have to work, but I don't think it has had any adverse affects on her yet. Also, they serve hot lunch at her school! We taught her to never eat lunch next to someone who has to "buy" lunch, so we avoided that awkward situation.
Holistically speaking, yes, hot lunches improve student performance. However, we can provide a bag lunch for our child and we were really more interested in learning about the kinds of academic programs a school offers, as well as the school culture.
If school lunches and daycare are the main attractions of a school, it seems like the school is more interested in social work (which is fine if that's what you need) rather than actual learning.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:32 AM on February 6, 2009
Teacher, teacher, teacher.
The teacher is the most important component of your child's education. But I don't think that the socio-economic indicators or test scores or the drug policy of a school can tell you what kind of teacher(s) you will get. I've seen great teachers at "ghetto" schools and really crappy teachers at middle-class, supposedly high-scoring schools. We were at a school with a lot of great teachers, but then our daughter got put in a class with a new teacher-- and that teacher sucked. On the other hand, a lot of experienced teachers actually suck too.
The only real way to get a preview of a teacher ahead of time is through word of mouth. And that can be dubious as well.
posted by Wayman Tisdale at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2009
The teacher is the most important component of your child's education. But I don't think that the socio-economic indicators or test scores or the drug policy of a school can tell you what kind of teacher(s) you will get. I've seen great teachers at "ghetto" schools and really crappy teachers at middle-class, supposedly high-scoring schools. We were at a school with a lot of great teachers, but then our daughter got put in a class with a new teacher-- and that teacher sucked. On the other hand, a lot of experienced teachers actually suck too.
The only real way to get a preview of a teacher ahead of time is through word of mouth. And that can be dubious as well.
posted by Wayman Tisdale at 11:02 AM on February 6, 2009
I'm not a parent. But if I were, I would pick the elementary school that has the most robust art/music program. I don't mean special classes for talented kids, but regular art/music classes for all students. Because exposure to different types of learning, in my opinion, is a vital part of elementary education, not just a luxury.
I think pineapple's reply is a great checklist for sussing out the culture of a school.
posted by desuetude at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2009
I think pineapple's reply is a great checklist for sussing out the culture of a school.
posted by desuetude at 11:47 AM on February 6, 2009
I would ask what the school's policies on recess are, as that can tell you a lot about the overall culture of the school. Are the kids actually allowed to run on the playground? (Sadly, there are schools where they are not.) How often are they let out for recess? Are they allowed to choose what they want to do, or are they required to participate in a structured activity?
The schools I've worked in that allow a certain amount of freedom and choice at recess seem to have happier kids, although that data is purely anecdotal. YMMV.
posted by corey flood at 12:06 PM on February 6, 2009
The schools I've worked in that allow a certain amount of freedom and choice at recess seem to have happier kids, although that data is purely anecdotal. YMMV.
posted by corey flood at 12:06 PM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: I'm a parent with a kid in the Seattle Public Schools (3rd grade), so I know exactly what the OP is going through.
Definitely visit, talk to parents, meet the teachers, get a sense of the place. Clearly everyone officially representing the school will be on their best behavior. You'll probably get a better sense of the shortcomings of a school by talking to other parents, particularly those who are NOT dedicated enough to organize and lead school tours. So, start asking around in your parent network. If you're interested in a particular school, shake the tree and see if you can talk on the phone or over coffee with someone who's kid goes there.
Test score stats are sometimes misleading. At my kid's alternative school, parents who object to the WASL can exempt their kids from taking it, and quite a few do. Those scores are entered as zeros and are not exempted from the statistical analysis, so they drag the numbers down. Lots of people in Seattle hate the WASL, particularly in the alternative school crowd, so I'll bet this is a factor at other schools too. Ask about this before you hang too much weight on test scores.
Finally, ask about how much of the staffing and programs at your schools of interest are funded by the PTA. You may be shocked how much that is. At my kid's school, there are several full and part time staff positions funded by the PTA. Any and all music enrichment. Stuff like that. You will find a correlation between how much money the PTA raises and the level of staffing and cool extras offered by a school. The corollary is that when your kid goes to a school with great programs funded by the PTA, you will need to pitch in also, or those programs will go away. Washington state is among the lowest in the nation in per-pupil student funding. (If you ever wondered why 25% of Seattle parents send their kids to private school, that's a big part of it right there. Seattle's population overall is much more educated than the average American population, and consequently value education highly, but the funding in this state is embarrasingly low. People who can afford to send their kids to private school often do.)
posted by Sublimity at 12:25 PM on February 6, 2009
Definitely visit, talk to parents, meet the teachers, get a sense of the place. Clearly everyone officially representing the school will be on their best behavior. You'll probably get a better sense of the shortcomings of a school by talking to other parents, particularly those who are NOT dedicated enough to organize and lead school tours. So, start asking around in your parent network. If you're interested in a particular school, shake the tree and see if you can talk on the phone or over coffee with someone who's kid goes there.
Test score stats are sometimes misleading. At my kid's alternative school, parents who object to the WASL can exempt their kids from taking it, and quite a few do. Those scores are entered as zeros and are not exempted from the statistical analysis, so they drag the numbers down. Lots of people in Seattle hate the WASL, particularly in the alternative school crowd, so I'll bet this is a factor at other schools too. Ask about this before you hang too much weight on test scores.
Finally, ask about how much of the staffing and programs at your schools of interest are funded by the PTA. You may be shocked how much that is. At my kid's school, there are several full and part time staff positions funded by the PTA. Any and all music enrichment. Stuff like that. You will find a correlation between how much money the PTA raises and the level of staffing and cool extras offered by a school. The corollary is that when your kid goes to a school with great programs funded by the PTA, you will need to pitch in also, or those programs will go away. Washington state is among the lowest in the nation in per-pupil student funding. (If you ever wondered why 25% of Seattle parents send their kids to private school, that's a big part of it right there. Seattle's population overall is much more educated than the average American population, and consequently value education highly, but the funding in this state is embarrasingly low. People who can afford to send their kids to private school often do.)
posted by Sublimity at 12:25 PM on February 6, 2009
I have no data to back this up, but my guess is that teacher quality so far outstrips any of these other factors that there's no reason to even consider them. Its like worrying about the zipper color of a bullet-proof vest. And you probably can't control which teacher your kid gets (even presuming you could identify the good ones ahead of time) so its a crapshoot. The only 'reasonable' approach I can think of to is figure out which are the possible teachers your kids will have at each school, score them, and optimize for the highest expected value assuming random teacher assignment.
I can't imagine a situation where the other attributes of a school could be so bad they'd outweigh a great teacher, or where they'd be so good they'd make up for a poor one.
I suspect this is one of those situations where there's a lot of data, but none of its really useful, so you try to make a good, informed choice because there are real differences in outcomes, but really, none of that data is useful. Malcolm Gladwell will probably write a book about this soon. "Crapshoots: How we rationalize important decisions we don't have a good way to decide." See also: how American teens choose agonize over college selection.
posted by jeb at 3:28 PM on February 6, 2009
I can't imagine a situation where the other attributes of a school could be so bad they'd outweigh a great teacher, or where they'd be so good they'd make up for a poor one.
I suspect this is one of those situations where there's a lot of data, but none of its really useful, so you try to make a good, informed choice because there are real differences in outcomes, but really, none of that data is useful. Malcolm Gladwell will probably write a book about this soon. "Crapshoots: How we rationalize important decisions we don't have a good way to decide." See also: how American teens choose agonize over college selection.
posted by jeb at 3:28 PM on February 6, 2009
Best answer: What is your school's discipline policy, and how does the school's administration ensure that it is followed consistently?
By which methods will I have access to information about my child's progress? (Online system, email/phone contact with the teacher, letters home, in person meetings)
Is it possible for me to observe/visit my child's classroom at any time?
Does the school stick to basal readers (traditional textbooks) or are teachers encouraged to supplement/replace with other materials?
How are the classes structured? (discovery learning/centers, small group activities, traditional direct instruction, a mixture of the above)
What is the school doing to ensure teacher quality? (Continuing education, requiring all teachers to be highly qualified, inservices, etc)
Those are just some things off the top of my head.
posted by lemonwheel at 3:30 PM on February 6, 2009
By which methods will I have access to information about my child's progress? (Online system, email/phone contact with the teacher, letters home, in person meetings)
Is it possible for me to observe/visit my child's classroom at any time?
Does the school stick to basal readers (traditional textbooks) or are teachers encouraged to supplement/replace with other materials?
How are the classes structured? (discovery learning/centers, small group activities, traditional direct instruction, a mixture of the above)
What is the school doing to ensure teacher quality? (Continuing education, requiring all teachers to be highly qualified, inservices, etc)
Those are just some things off the top of my head.
posted by lemonwheel at 3:30 PM on February 6, 2009
I have no data to back this up, but my guess is that teacher quality so far outstrips any of these other factors that there's no reason to even consider them.
In my sample size of two, this has been the case. A really fantastic school went to hell in a handbasket with a bad teacher. Twice. An insane, crippled 69 year-old teacher could make any school difficult (his issues went beyond those two attributes, however. it's not like all crippled 69 year-olds are bad people. But this one was).
And you probably can't control which teacher your kid gets
You can to an extent. Schools want teachers to be matched to kids as much as parents do.
posted by GuyZero at 3:49 PM on February 6, 2009
In my sample size of two, this has been the case. A really fantastic school went to hell in a handbasket with a bad teacher. Twice. An insane, crippled 69 year-old teacher could make any school difficult (his issues went beyond those two attributes, however. it's not like all crippled 69 year-olds are bad people. But this one was).
And you probably can't control which teacher your kid gets
You can to an extent. Schools want teachers to be matched to kids as much as parents do.
posted by GuyZero at 3:49 PM on February 6, 2009
Seattle Public Schools have APP, the Accelerated Progress Program, If you believe in "gifted" programs and the capability of your child, then perhaps you could pick a school based on the quality of kindergarten alone, then try to have them test into APP to finish the rest of their schooling (1st-12th grade) in the APP schools (Lowell Elementary, Washington Middle, Garfield High). Full disclosure: I am from Seattle, tested into APP in kindergarten, and went to the APP schools I listed. If you have any questions about the APP experience from a student's perspective, feel free to MeFi mail me.
posted by illenion at 7:23 AM on February 7, 2009
posted by illenion at 7:23 AM on February 7, 2009
A good principal makes all the difference in the world. Our daughter ended up going to 3 different grade schools (not because we wanted that or were dissatisfied; the school district kept changing which schools hosted which programs). By far the best school was the one where the principal was actively involved in the school. For instance, he greeted and shook hands with every single student on the first day of school. He walked the halls and knew the students by name (this was a large urban school). The school also handed out medals (Olympic style medals on a ribbon) for academic achievement. These were coveted and motivated the students. This school had an active PTO that the principal encouraged. The principal made sure (unobtrusively) that every student had all the supplies they needed and there was a jar of peanut butter if a kid forget to bring lunch. The students loved this principal for many reasons - among them the fact that he never threatened or scolded. He talked out problems and involved the student (and if necessary, the parent) in solving them.
The other thing to consider (which I never thought about before enrolling our daughter in a Spanish-immersion program) is that if your child goes to a school far away from your own neighborhood, they will not have any classmates in the area to play with.
Best of luck and remember that if your choice proves to be the wrong one, you can always change schools!
posted by daneflute at 9:42 AM on February 7, 2009
The other thing to consider (which I never thought about before enrolling our daughter in a Spanish-immersion program) is that if your child goes to a school far away from your own neighborhood, they will not have any classmates in the area to play with.
Best of luck and remember that if your choice proves to be the wrong one, you can always change schools!
posted by daneflute at 9:42 AM on February 7, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Our son is six. Back when we were getting ready to enroll him in kindergarten, we looked around at the options. When the school in our urban neighbourhood boasted that it had a hot lunch program and lots of after-school care spaces, we decided to look for something else.
Since we are able to provide lunch for our son, and after school care is not a problem, we chose a different school on the other side of the park that offers French immersion, band and music classes. and a full-time librarian.
Each school in British Columbia gets a per-student funding allocation, so it's not really a matter of moving to "richer" neighbourhood here.
At the end of the day, we chose a school on its academic merits, rather than its ability to act a as a de facto social services provider.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:17 AM on February 6, 2009