Don't Fence Me In: Illegal Property
December 30, 2008 6:39 PM Subscribe
What are the odds of someone without any connections to the "underworld" selling a stolen or illegal item of significant value without being busted or simply having it taken from them?
A guy I know (many years ago now) found a kilo of cocaine hidden in the dashboard of a car he was restoring--he did the "right" thing and called the cops, who came, asked a few questions, took the drugs, and that was that.
At the time I was "poor" and thought "jeez, that would be worth a bundle, which would really help..." I doubt I would have done much different, but I know I would have at least briefly thought about what kind of money that illegal item represented if I had found the kilo in a car project of mine. (Just to clarify: I have no illegal property--that I'm aware of--nor have I discovered a stash of anything.)
I've always guessed that the odds I would be able to sell stolen or illegal goods for anything close to their "true" value (i.e., if a kilo of coke is worth $30K on the street, getting $20K for it, or if a stolen painting is worth $1M, getting $500K or more for it, etc.) would be absolutely remote and I'd most likely end up at the wrong end of a sting operation or a gun held by someone much more serious than myself.
(I'd like to avoid derails about the morality of selling illegal or stolen goods. I think the "war on drugs" is stupid, like to see stolen goods returned to their rightful owners, etc.)
A guy I know (many years ago now) found a kilo of cocaine hidden in the dashboard of a car he was restoring--he did the "right" thing and called the cops, who came, asked a few questions, took the drugs, and that was that.
At the time I was "poor" and thought "jeez, that would be worth a bundle, which would really help..." I doubt I would have done much different, but I know I would have at least briefly thought about what kind of money that illegal item represented if I had found the kilo in a car project of mine. (Just to clarify: I have no illegal property--that I'm aware of--nor have I discovered a stash of anything.)
I've always guessed that the odds I would be able to sell stolen or illegal goods for anything close to their "true" value (i.e., if a kilo of coke is worth $30K on the street, getting $20K for it, or if a stolen painting is worth $1M, getting $500K or more for it, etc.) would be absolutely remote and I'd most likely end up at the wrong end of a sting operation or a gun held by someone much more serious than myself.
(I'd like to avoid derails about the morality of selling illegal or stolen goods. I think the "war on drugs" is stupid, like to see stolen goods returned to their rightful owners, etc.)
There was an Episode of The Wire that was somewhat along these lines, the one where Ziggy tries to get into the coke business. He ended up getting ripped off and owing money to the drug dealers, before his cousin had to bail him out by talking to the Greek Kingpin guy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:20 PM on December 30, 2008
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:20 PM on December 30, 2008
Best answer: I wish I could remember the specifics - a number of years ago I was browsing a book (pop nonfictions sort of thing) about Ecstasy and a segment that really stood out related the story of a few young men with some scientific knowledge who set out to cook up a big batch for one solid payday (and of course all the Ecstasy they could eat). The practical logistics of manufacturing it were profoundly difficult but what really stood out was after they managed it, the logistics of moving the product were nightmarish in just the way you and jayder are conceiving. Try to get up the food chain, people assume you are a narc or you're paranoid everyone you meet is a narc or you run the risk of running into people who do not like freelancers trying to edge into their supply chain or just figure to rip you off because you're obviously a lightweight civilian and when the guns come out you will just roll over and pray to get out of it alive. Again it's been a while and this is obviously second hand but as I recall they did eventually move it all but it took much longer than they had conceived, netted them much less money than they had hoped, and involved basically constant fear and paranoia.
It has to be noted that this is basically the plot of True Romance, and the somewhat plausible solution the protagonists come up with (SPOILERS) is to sell it to the sort of person who is rich and wants a lot of cocaine but isn't otherwise "heavy," in the case of the movie a film producer.
posted by nanojath at 7:26 PM on December 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
It has to be noted that this is basically the plot of True Romance, and the somewhat plausible solution the protagonists come up with (SPOILERS) is to sell it to the sort of person who is rich and wants a lot of cocaine but isn't otherwise "heavy," in the case of the movie a film producer.
posted by nanojath at 7:26 PM on December 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
Best answer: You've pretty much got to sell it retail, by the gram, in this situation. Nobody in the "underworld" is going to buy a key of coke from somebody they don't know.
posted by Netzapper at 8:14 PM on December 30, 2008
posted by Netzapper at 8:14 PM on December 30, 2008
Best answer: It depends who you know and how you define "underworld."
Without going into too many specifics, I once found myself sitting with a friend at 3:00 AM, sitting across a small table from another friend of ours who had just driven four hours with an ex Hells Angel (he was kicked out for being too violent) and said person's girlfriend to purchase an ounce of something that my friend thought was very valuable (it had been found in the trunk of an abandoned car) but turned out to be... we never did really figure out what it was, actually. Luckily it didn't kill us. And luckily the ex Hells Angel didn't kill us with the gun that he very specifically showed he had strapped to his ankle when he walked into the room. He was very annoyed that he had driven so far with $5,000 in hundred dollar bills in his wallet, not so much because he was excited about the deal, I think, but because he was jonesing for a fix himself. Before shooting up with this stuff that he'd already said was probably just some sort of chemical waste from a batch of PCP gone bad, he told his girlfriend to shoot us (with the gun, not the junk) if it killed him. We had the sense that she was too nice to do that, but still...
We made it out intact, never met the intended purchaser again (though I did run into someone else who knew him a few months later) and did actually maintain good relations with our over-excited friend who had dragged this guy four hours at the first mention of the possible deal. But it could have turned out much worse. We did, it seemed, have some connections to the underworld, but we were in way, way, way over our heads.
posted by alms at 8:28 PM on December 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
Without going into too many specifics, I once found myself sitting with a friend at 3:00 AM, sitting across a small table from another friend of ours who had just driven four hours with an ex Hells Angel (he was kicked out for being too violent) and said person's girlfriend to purchase an ounce of something that my friend thought was very valuable (it had been found in the trunk of an abandoned car) but turned out to be... we never did really figure out what it was, actually. Luckily it didn't kill us. And luckily the ex Hells Angel didn't kill us with the gun that he very specifically showed he had strapped to his ankle when he walked into the room. He was very annoyed that he had driven so far with $5,000 in hundred dollar bills in his wallet, not so much because he was excited about the deal, I think, but because he was jonesing for a fix himself. Before shooting up with this stuff that he'd already said was probably just some sort of chemical waste from a batch of PCP gone bad, he told his girlfriend to shoot us (with the gun, not the junk) if it killed him. We had the sense that she was too nice to do that, but still...
We made it out intact, never met the intended purchaser again (though I did run into someone else who knew him a few months later) and did actually maintain good relations with our over-excited friend who had dragged this guy four hours at the first mention of the possible deal. But it could have turned out much worse. We did, it seemed, have some connections to the underworld, but we were in way, way, way over our heads.
posted by alms at 8:28 PM on December 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
Best answer: or if a stolen painting is worth $1M, getting $500K or more for it
You would be lucky to sell the painting for $15,000.
The rightful owner of a painting "worth" $1M (assuming a documented provenance) that sold for $1M might realize $600,000 - $750,000
The major auction houses charge a 20% sellers fee and there would be other fees (appraisal, insurance, maybe a consultant) as well as tax implications.
But selling a painting from a listed artist, no provenance, likely entered into stolen art databases? Might as well hang it on your own wall and when people ask tell them it is just a print.
posted by mlis at 10:32 PM on December 30, 2008
You would be lucky to sell the painting for $15,000.
The rightful owner of a painting "worth" $1M (assuming a documented provenance) that sold for $1M might realize $600,000 - $750,000
The major auction houses charge a 20% sellers fee and there would be other fees (appraisal, insurance, maybe a consultant) as well as tax implications.
But selling a painting from a listed artist, no provenance, likely entered into stolen art databases? Might as well hang it on your own wall and when people ask tell them it is just a print.
posted by mlis at 10:32 PM on December 30, 2008
Best answer: It is hard to say because the situation could vary wildly from town to town, drug to drug, scene to scene, and year to year. Retail dealers of one particular drug to a certain crowd might be very territorial in one town, while in another situation the people a few levels up wouldn't care if you flooded their market for a week. In a stable marketplace, established dealers and distributors will may value that stability over very-short-term losses. And forget "street value"--the wholesale price for a kilo of cocaine is much lower and varies as well.
If you didn't know anyone who regularly used cocaine, you'd probably be pretty screwed. If you knew several different people, ideally who were buying from several different dealers (real dealers, not people who buy in bulk on behalf of their friends in order to get their share for free) then it probably wouldn't be too hard to get rid of it in several small sales at a reasonable price (going wholesale rate minus a certain percentage because you're a newbie who doesn't know the real value and wants to get rid of it fast).
For other things (like your painting, or corporate secrets, or whatever) the answer is as varied as the combinations of your connections, your knowledge of the true value of the item(s), your eagerness to get it out of your hands, your street-smarts and people-skills, who the actual people that would buy it are, etc.
posted by K.P. at 10:48 PM on December 30, 2008
If you didn't know anyone who regularly used cocaine, you'd probably be pretty screwed. If you knew several different people, ideally who were buying from several different dealers (real dealers, not people who buy in bulk on behalf of their friends in order to get their share for free) then it probably wouldn't be too hard to get rid of it in several small sales at a reasonable price (going wholesale rate minus a certain percentage because you're a newbie who doesn't know the real value and wants to get rid of it fast).
For other things (like your painting, or corporate secrets, or whatever) the answer is as varied as the combinations of your connections, your knowledge of the true value of the item(s), your eagerness to get it out of your hands, your street-smarts and people-skills, who the actual people that would buy it are, etc.
posted by K.P. at 10:48 PM on December 30, 2008
Retail dealers of one particular drug to a certain crowd might be very territorial in one town
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Don't go trying to sell it retail on somebody else's corner. (I'm not repeating movie cliches: someone got killed a block from my house doing that.)
posted by salvia at 9:01 AM on December 31, 2008
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Don't go trying to sell it retail on somebody else's corner. (I'm not repeating movie cliches: someone got killed a block from my house doing that.)
posted by salvia at 9:01 AM on December 31, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts and anecdotes. This has confirmed I should stick to trying to sell my time and not hoping to discover illegal riches.
posted by maxwelton at 2:57 PM on December 31, 2008
posted by maxwelton at 2:57 PM on December 31, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Your chances of selling it would be better if you were to stash it away somewhere very, very secure and then spend six months or more working your way into the underworld that would provide you with a buyer.
Another problem is that you'd face a problem finding someone to actually buy the $30k coke stash, without yourself becoming the dealer. Nobody who is not something of a drug kingpin has $30k laying around, and drug kingpins have their own suppliers that they'll go to without taking the huge risk of buying drugs from some naive, pencil-necked MeFite. So, in order to sell it to a kingpin, you'd probably have to sell it for a steeper discount than someone established in the business would have to offer.
posted by jayder at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2008