Is it the hot toddy on my breath?
December 2, 2008 8:15 AM Subscribe
This has been bugging me for a while: is there much difference in appearances between people of various European backgrounds? Acquaintances and strangers can always "tell" I'm genetically Scottish, or at least some strain of Brit. This would seem ludicrous if they weren't totally right.
Do Europeans and Americans look that different, beyond mannerism/lifestyle/fashion variations? It seems like an absurd question to ask, except that I am consistently stopped by random strangers, sometimes Americans, sometimes Brits, who want to know if I'm British or Scottish. When this happened twice this past month, I felt like it wasn't just that I'm magnet for lunatics and lonely people. And I've got two Scottish grandparents from Durness and two Welsh grandparents from Gwynedd. But I do not have carrot red hair, nor do I wear obscene amounts of plaid. My teeth are straight, my accent is American. I was raised in the US by American-born parents. What gives?
I'm wondering if any folks who've spent time on both sides of the pond can notice such details, because "looking [X European background]" would seem like jingoistic folklore to me, circa Europa, but I grew up in an enormous, culturally ubiquitous, genetically muddled nation. I understand that the UK more isolated than the US, but it's no Iceland.
Also, do identifiable characteristics abound in less genetically isolated European countries (Mediterranean nations are another story). Can natives pick out Frenchness or Russianness in the faces of fellow countrymen when they're abroad?
Do Europeans and Americans look that different, beyond mannerism/lifestyle/fashion variations? It seems like an absurd question to ask, except that I am consistently stopped by random strangers, sometimes Americans, sometimes Brits, who want to know if I'm British or Scottish. When this happened twice this past month, I felt like it wasn't just that I'm magnet for lunatics and lonely people. And I've got two Scottish grandparents from Durness and two Welsh grandparents from Gwynedd. But I do not have carrot red hair, nor do I wear obscene amounts of plaid. My teeth are straight, my accent is American. I was raised in the US by American-born parents. What gives?
I'm wondering if any folks who've spent time on both sides of the pond can notice such details, because "looking [X European background]" would seem like jingoistic folklore to me, circa Europa, but I grew up in an enormous, culturally ubiquitous, genetically muddled nation. I understand that the UK more isolated than the US, but it's no Iceland.
Also, do identifiable characteristics abound in less genetically isolated European countries (Mediterranean nations are another story). Can natives pick out Frenchness or Russianness in the faces of fellow countrymen when they're abroad?
...but (posted too quick), recognition of compatriots abroad may have as much to do with zeroing in on certain mannerisms or gestures.
posted by jquinby at 8:31 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by jquinby at 8:31 AM on December 2, 2008
I don't have the gift personally, but I have had girlfriends with an uncanny ability to spot other Danes when traveling abroad well before opening their mouths. It seems to me that it has more to do with clothing and appearance than anything genetic -- you used, e.g., to be able to determine someone was Danish with 95% accuracy if they wore a Fjällräven backpack.
posted by AwkwardPause at 8:31 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by AwkwardPause at 8:31 AM on December 2, 2008
I'll admit to obsessing over the "looks" of various European ancestries. I attribute it to being the one kid in my grade school that wasn't, at least partially, either Irish, Italian, or German. My one friend who was partly Irish, but identified as proud Scot, had a particularly intense look about him. My czech/croat/spanish blood has made me mistaken from anything Mediterranean to American Indian.
It is jingoistic - but as long as you don't use it as a springboard for actually stereotyping people, I don't think it's bad. My wife identifies as being heavy on in the Polish blood - but I dont' stereotype her with Pollack jokes (she'd murder me). As mixed as most Americans are, it's more a parlor trick than anything.
posted by notsnot at 8:34 AM on December 2, 2008
It is jingoistic - but as long as you don't use it as a springboard for actually stereotyping people, I don't think it's bad. My wife identifies as being heavy on in the Polish blood - but I dont' stereotype her with Pollack jokes (she'd murder me). As mixed as most Americans are, it's more a parlor trick than anything.
posted by notsnot at 8:34 AM on December 2, 2008
Could it be your clothes? I'm a Canadian who lived in England for three years; North Americans and Europeans dress differently (different brands, different styles), although I'm not sure that that would be apparent to North Americans who haven't had much exposure to Europe and Britain.
Oh wait, I see that you say you were raised in the US, so are you wearing American clothing?
posted by iona at 8:35 AM on December 2, 2008
Oh wait, I see that you say you were raised in the US, so are you wearing American clothing?
posted by iona at 8:35 AM on December 2, 2008
Purely anecdotally, most of my ancestors are from country X in Europe. But (on the rare occasions when this comes up for discussion), people will almost invariably guess that my ancestors came from countries Y or Z -- still in Europe, but quite different places. And my partner gets even more wildly varying guesses about ancestry, where people will usually guess the wrong continent, much less country.
So my sense is that although there are clear resemblances and stereotypes, like the Gallic nose mentioned above, across populations, at the individual level it doesn't work nearly so well -- there are blond Spaniards and dark-toned Scandanavians, and so on.
posted by Forktine at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2008
So my sense is that although there are clear resemblances and stereotypes, like the Gallic nose mentioned above, across populations, at the individual level it doesn't work nearly so well -- there are blond Spaniards and dark-toned Scandanavians, and so on.
posted by Forktine at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2008
you used, e.g., to be able to determine someone was Danish with 95% accuracy if they wore a Fjällräven backpack.
ha - the clue to spotting a Canadian abroad is the MEC backpack
posted by iona at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
ha - the clue to spotting a Canadian abroad is the MEC backpack
posted by iona at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sure, there are facial differences in "Europeans." I'm guessing you would think there was nothing strange at all in somebody pointing out facial differences between "Africans" -- e.g., between Ghananians and Ethiopians, or between "Asians" -- e.g., between Koreans and Japanese people.
posted by footnote at 8:38 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by footnote at 8:38 AM on December 2, 2008
Another anecdote: When I lived in Spain, I was often taken for either Swedish or French, but never as from the US. I have neither Swedish nor French ancestry--I'm an anglo/irish mutt with some german or dutch or both in there. At the time my (foreign) accent in Spanish was minimal to near non-existent. Since there wasn't a clear linguistic cue, people had a really hard time placing me.
posted by Stewriffic at 8:42 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by Stewriffic at 8:42 AM on December 2, 2008
Yeah, I can spot Brits a bit.
It's probably more to do with subtle differences in attire, grooming, or mannerism, than phenotype. (Although there are some distinct Scottish phenotypes -- I'm thinking in particular of a sort of frizzy/curly hair that is otherwise seen only (in a slightly different form) on Ashkenazi Jews.)
Europeans in general wear clothing that tends to be more narrowly cut; they also wear some color/pattern combinations that just aren't seen among Americans.
It may have something to do with the mouth and cheekbones, though -- possibly as mundane as non-Americans tend to be thinner. But there's a certain something about Brits and Aussies , but not so much Canadians, and it's in the face. Whether that's phenotypic or the result of some cultural mannerism, I can't say.
posted by orthogonality at 8:44 AM on December 2, 2008
It's probably more to do with subtle differences in attire, grooming, or mannerism, than phenotype. (Although there are some distinct Scottish phenotypes -- I'm thinking in particular of a sort of frizzy/curly hair that is otherwise seen only (in a slightly different form) on Ashkenazi Jews.)
Europeans in general wear clothing that tends to be more narrowly cut; they also wear some color/pattern combinations that just aren't seen among Americans.
It may have something to do with the mouth and cheekbones, though -- possibly as mundane as non-Americans tend to be thinner. But there's a certain something about Brits and Aussies , but not so much Canadians, and it's in the face. Whether that's phenotypic or the result of some cultural mannerism, I can't say.
posted by orthogonality at 8:44 AM on December 2, 2008
Yes, there are clear differences among Europeans.
My wife and I live in a very touristy area in London and all we get all day are mostly tourists from all over Europe walking by. We actually make a game of guessing which country they are from before getting closer and hearing them speak.
Granted much of it is clothes and mannerisms but there are also certain body and facial features that are expressed most strongly in each country. My wife is Portuguese. And I've pointed out to her some of the features that are common to many Portuguese people, including a high forehead.
Interestingly, she doesn't look very Portuguese at all but looks very "stereotypically" French even with yes a bit of that Gallic nose. Its not just me that thinks that. French tourists and French shopkeepers just start spontaneously speaking to her in French. Luckily, she does speak French but in this case, she also "looks" French and everyone is picking up on it.
posted by vacapinta at 8:50 AM on December 2, 2008
My wife and I live in a very touristy area in London and all we get all day are mostly tourists from all over Europe walking by. We actually make a game of guessing which country they are from before getting closer and hearing them speak.
Granted much of it is clothes and mannerisms but there are also certain body and facial features that are expressed most strongly in each country. My wife is Portuguese. And I've pointed out to her some of the features that are common to many Portuguese people, including a high forehead.
Interestingly, she doesn't look very Portuguese at all but looks very "stereotypically" French even with yes a bit of that Gallic nose. Its not just me that thinks that. French tourists and French shopkeepers just start spontaneously speaking to her in French. Luckily, she does speak French but in this case, she also "looks" French and everyone is picking up on it.
posted by vacapinta at 8:50 AM on December 2, 2008
I grew up in some of the tourist hotspots of the UK. I have the useless skill of being able to predict what nationality a group of teenagers are with startling accuracy. But only a small section of that skill comes from looks, a large chunk of it comes from dress, accessories, body language and behaviour. Also, the fact that there's a large group helps (more blonds = further north in Europe), individuals are a lot harder to pin down.
Americans can be easy to identify abroad, and again it's dress, body language and behaviour as much as appearence or accent.
As a Brit, I can tell you it's hard to spot a Scot, or in fact anyone from anywhere in the UK, by looks alone.
And you can spot the French by the Kipling rucksacs.
posted by Helga-woo at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2008
Americans can be easy to identify abroad, and again it's dress, body language and behaviour as much as appearence or accent.
As a Brit, I can tell you it's hard to spot a Scot, or in fact anyone from anywhere in the UK, by looks alone.
And you can spot the French by the Kipling rucksacs.
posted by Helga-woo at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2008
While in Paris, I was mistaken for Spanish and Dutch, though I am of Irish and German ancestry (light auburn hair, blue eyes, pale skin). The fact that I spoke halfway decent French with a not-native-but-not-noticeably-American accent probably threw them off from my appearance.
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on December 2, 2008
Here's a map of Europe made by making facial composites of players on national soccer teams. Here's another one with the same idea.
The maps are fun to look at, but I don't think it makes much sense to average faces. Personally, I think most Europeans/Asians/Africans/etc. have similar facial features, but there are the few "outlier" faces that look strongly French/Swedish/Italian/etc. - it's from those that we get the ideas of which country should look like what.
I am consistently stopped by random strangers, sometimes Americans, sometimes Brits, who want to know if I'm British or Scottish
Anecdotally, I've found that people enjoy thinking they have the ability to identify particular ethnic backgrounds. I've seen way too many people claim that they have the ability to distinguish between different Asian nationalities solely by facial features ("A-dar" if you will) and then proceed to fail miserably at guessing my background.
Can natives pick out Frenchness or Russianness in the faces of fellow countrymen when they're abroad?
Russians claim they can identify other Russians abroad without hearing them speak, but I think it has more to do with mannerisms than a particular Russian "look."
posted by pravit at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
The maps are fun to look at, but I don't think it makes much sense to average faces. Personally, I think most Europeans/Asians/Africans/etc. have similar facial features, but there are the few "outlier" faces that look strongly French/Swedish/Italian/etc. - it's from those that we get the ideas of which country should look like what.
I am consistently stopped by random strangers, sometimes Americans, sometimes Brits, who want to know if I'm British or Scottish
Anecdotally, I've found that people enjoy thinking they have the ability to identify particular ethnic backgrounds. I've seen way too many people claim that they have the ability to distinguish between different Asian nationalities solely by facial features ("A-dar" if you will) and then proceed to fail miserably at guessing my background.
Can natives pick out Frenchness or Russianness in the faces of fellow countrymen when they're abroad?
Russians claim they can identify other Russians abroad without hearing them speak, but I think it has more to do with mannerisms than a particular Russian "look."
posted by pravit at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2008 [2 favorites]
Agreed with footnote -- what you are really asking is whether or not there are visible difference amongst the subgroups that together are referred to in the US as "white".
The answer is, of course, yes. "Whiteness" is a constructed category like "black" or "asian" or whatever... the world is not readily dividable into 5 "races" as some would argue.
Just as it usually (I am not arguing for 100% here) is easy to spot someone who is ethnically Japanese vs ethnically Chinese or ethnically Thai, it is easy to spot someone who is ethnically English, ethnically Russian, or ethnically Italian, regardless of what they are wearing and how they sound (if they are born and raised in North America, for example).
Clues derived from mannerisms and fashion just make the process that much easier.
posted by modernnomad at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2008
The answer is, of course, yes. "Whiteness" is a constructed category like "black" or "asian" or whatever... the world is not readily dividable into 5 "races" as some would argue.
Just as it usually (I am not arguing for 100% here) is easy to spot someone who is ethnically Japanese vs ethnically Chinese or ethnically Thai, it is easy to spot someone who is ethnically English, ethnically Russian, or ethnically Italian, regardless of what they are wearing and how they sound (if they are born and raised in North America, for example).
Clues derived from mannerisms and fashion just make the process that much easier.
posted by modernnomad at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2008
I come from a mutt family.
My Brother looks like the Italian side (referncing old photos).
I look like the Hungarian and Polish sides.
This is just anecdotal familial resemblance.
However, when I was younger and visited Hungary, little old ladies would come up to me on the street and ask questions. I assume they were questions by the tone of voice. I would reply in English that I didn't speak magyar. They usually talked to me for a minute or two before shaking their head and walking off. I always assumed that they thought I was a local. I, however, did not dress like the usual backpacker. I usually wore milsurp steel toe deck boots, work pants and button down shirts. I had a close cropped beard and hair.
This did not happen to me in any other country, but it happened daily in Hungary.
Just another anecdote.
So, yes, I think that there are regional European phenotypes.
These are probably breaking down in the less insular modern world.
posted by Seamus at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2008
My Brother looks like the Italian side (referncing old photos).
I look like the Hungarian and Polish sides.
This is just anecdotal familial resemblance.
However, when I was younger and visited Hungary, little old ladies would come up to me on the street and ask questions. I assume they were questions by the tone of voice. I would reply in English that I didn't speak magyar. They usually talked to me for a minute or two before shaking their head and walking off. I always assumed that they thought I was a local. I, however, did not dress like the usual backpacker. I usually wore milsurp steel toe deck boots, work pants and button down shirts. I had a close cropped beard and hair.
This did not happen to me in any other country, but it happened daily in Hungary.
Just another anecdote.
So, yes, I think that there are regional European phenotypes.
These are probably breaking down in the less insular modern world.
posted by Seamus at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2008
Probably dont need the answer to this, but whenever I'm in the US, I get hit on by guys all the time (I'm a straight guy, and they hadnt heard me talk in my brit accent) which is fine, but I let them know nicely, but when I asked told some other americans this, they said... "yeeeaaaah I can kinda see why" and smile. When pushed, they said, "you know, its a probably the Brit thing" but I still dont get it. In the UK, it never ever happens.
So I'm recognised as a Brit in the US. Its probably the clothes, and the terrible teeth. But for scottish, wouldnt have a clue.
(Oh and US guys - youre pushy!!)
posted by daveyt at 9:07 AM on December 2, 2008
So I'm recognised as a Brit in the US. Its probably the clothes, and the terrible teeth. But for scottish, wouldnt have a clue.
(Oh and US guys - youre pushy!!)
posted by daveyt at 9:07 AM on December 2, 2008
There are a lot of subtle cues that people pick up on, and they run so far beneath the conscious level that I cannot even begin to articulate them. I worked for many years in a business with a huge international clientele and I and many of my coworkers used to find we were able to guess (with perhaps 90% accuracy) what someone's passport might be in the three seconds from when the customer walked in the door to when he reached the desk. At a guess, we were using not just facial appearance but haircut, glasses (if any) clothing, gait and accessories.
On the other hand, in North Africa, little old Celtic/Scandinavian me was pegged as a German all the time, even by actual Germans (to the point that I would be addressed in German without so much as a preliminary "Sprechen Sie Deutsch?") I grant that there were at that time so many German tourists there that it was often a safe guess for tall fair-haired people, but still.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:11 AM on December 2, 2008
On the other hand, in North Africa, little old Celtic/Scandinavian me was pegged as a German all the time, even by actual Germans (to the point that I would be addressed in German without so much as a preliminary "Sprechen Sie Deutsch?") I grant that there were at that time so many German tourists there that it was often a safe guess for tall fair-haired people, but still.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:11 AM on December 2, 2008
Everybody always thinks they know what I am, but they are all wrong. I get people spontaneously speaking to me in Farsi. Mexicans are sure I'm one of them. Last week yet another Jew was convinced I was Jewish. I've even gotten people who thought I was Native American. (I'm actually Italian and Polish.)
posted by HotToddy at 9:12 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by HotToddy at 9:12 AM on December 2, 2008
Wearing hiking boots in an airport == Canadian. Seriously, try it.
posted by mjg123 at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by mjg123 at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2008
whenever I'm in the US, I get hit on by guys all the time (I'm a straight guy...
Gay or European.
posted by ericb at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2008
Gay or European.
posted by ericb at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2008
Response by poster: The last time a stranger stopped me on the subway, it was a woman around my mother's age who came from Glasgow. She just seemed chirpy and lonely, and didn't really get the New York mentality of "Don't talk to me unless I'm on fire." She claimed that she "knew" because I have freckles, blue-green eyes, auburn hair, and a round face. It is important to note that she was blond and ruddy and looked not a bit like me. My grandaunt was thrilled that I have "Highland color" but she also missed Durness like crazy and was probably projecting.
footnote, I've always been curious about those delineations. Because the African continent's modern nations are still hack wounds left by European colonialism, I'd imagine that Africans vary more by older tribal groups than modern countries. I know many people claim to see differences between, say, Koreans and Japanese people, but I can't see it anymore than I can see the difference between a Texan and German.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:17 AM on December 2, 2008
footnote, I've always been curious about those delineations. Because the African continent's modern nations are still hack wounds left by European colonialism, I'd imagine that Africans vary more by older tribal groups than modern countries. I know many people claim to see differences between, say, Koreans and Japanese people, but I can't see it anymore than I can see the difference between a Texan and German.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:17 AM on December 2, 2008
I do not have carrot red hair, nor do I wear obscene amounts of plaid. My teeth are straight, my accent is American. I was raised in the US by American-born parents. What gives?
Pale complexion, dark hair, blue eyes? I'd probably assume 'Celtic fringe'. And yeah, I've played 'guess the nationality' before on the Tube or the Paris Metro. The chinless posh boys who show up on BBC America look different from the right-angle-headedness of certain young male Americans.
But since we rarely see disembodied faces in real life, there's a lifetime of cultural observation or misobservation going into it.
posted by holgate at 9:23 AM on December 2, 2008
Pale complexion, dark hair, blue eyes? I'd probably assume 'Celtic fringe'. And yeah, I've played 'guess the nationality' before on the Tube or the Paris Metro. The chinless posh boys who show up on BBC America look different from the right-angle-headedness of certain young male Americans.
But since we rarely see disembodied faces in real life, there's a lifetime of cultural observation or misobservation going into it.
posted by holgate at 9:23 AM on December 2, 2008
I'm Jewish from America, but when in Europe people instantly peg me as English, so it's not fool-proof.
posted by Electrius at 9:24 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by Electrius at 9:24 AM on December 2, 2008
A few weeks ago I was with a bunch of Brits in a bar and I became convinced that there are particularly British facial expressions. I can't describe them though.
There's certainly a German look, though not every German has it, and it blends into the Scandinavian look -- which is further confused by the fact that people's stereotype of Germans seems to come from the Aryan ideal, which actually seems to describe Swedes better than Germans.
posted by creasy boy at 9:29 AM on December 2, 2008
There's certainly a German look, though not every German has it, and it blends into the Scandinavian look -- which is further confused by the fact that people's stereotype of Germans seems to come from the Aryan ideal, which actually seems to describe Swedes better than Germans.
posted by creasy boy at 9:29 AM on December 2, 2008
Best answer: Without delving too far into speculation over the facial features of different European peoples, I think it's worth mentioning that often people pick up on cues unconsciously, and interpret them as something else. In other words, indications of your nationality might be triggered in other people by things such as your dress, your gait, your mannerisms and such, without these people realizing that these things are what is triggering their perception - so when asked how they knew you were Scottish, their reply is, "I could just tell" or "You just look it."
I think this is probably closer to the case than actual skeletal and muscular facial differences between Americans and Europeans - it hardly seems likely that Americans and Europeans have genetically developed away from each other that dramatically in such a short period of time. biologically speaking.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:33 AM on December 2, 2008
I think this is probably closer to the case than actual skeletal and muscular facial differences between Americans and Europeans - it hardly seems likely that Americans and Europeans have genetically developed away from each other that dramatically in such a short period of time. biologically speaking.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:33 AM on December 2, 2008
it is all pretty haphazard.
But I will say that since finding out I have famous ancestors in England I've looked up paintings and likenesses online and sometimes the similarity is a bit disconcerting.
Course I was a bit taken aback by the fellow on the beer bottle here
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/118/402/ as it too was pretty close (minus, alas, the viking paraphernalia).
posted by edgeways at 9:34 AM on December 2, 2008
But I will say that since finding out I have famous ancestors in England I've looked up paintings and likenesses online and sometimes the similarity is a bit disconcerting.
Course I was a bit taken aback by the fellow on the beer bottle here
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/118/402/ as it too was pretty close (minus, alas, the viking paraphernalia).
posted by edgeways at 9:34 AM on December 2, 2008
Heh, American one-quarter Scot here. Red hair, brown eyes, grew up just outside of Boston, and hence was constantly mistaken for Irish-American of some stripe. I didn't fully recognize the subtle differences between my own facial features and those of my Irish-American classmates I was 20...
...and met a half-Japanese half-Scots CS student from MIT at a friend's house. I recognized my own eye color, cheekbones, and general facial configuration on an obviously part-Asian woman, and then all the little subtleties of phenotype that differentiate Scots from the Irish were suddenly really obvious. Since then, it's been easier for me to pick out different sorts of Brits.
Friends of mine have a pal who's a geneticist-- she can tell you pretty reliably where your ancestors came from after a brief study of your face. It's a great party trick.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:43 AM on December 2, 2008
...and met a half-Japanese half-Scots CS student from MIT at a friend's house. I recognized my own eye color, cheekbones, and general facial configuration on an obviously part-Asian woman, and then all the little subtleties of phenotype that differentiate Scots from the Irish were suddenly really obvious. Since then, it's been easier for me to pick out different sorts of Brits.
Friends of mine have a pal who's a geneticist-- she can tell you pretty reliably where your ancestors came from after a brief study of your face. It's a great party trick.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:43 AM on December 2, 2008
This is certainly not foolproof (for all of you who are convinced you can peg someone from 5 yards) and--speaking as someone who's European roots are of the more "ethnic looking" variety--people are often hilariously, racist-ly off the mark. Americans don't do well with "brown-skinned European-Caucasian."
I've been confidently assessed as Jewish, Cuban, Mexican, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Muslim (with bonus profiling and shouted slurs after 9/11), and, did I mention Jewish (which is shorthand for "'Other' with a non-button nose")?
I was nicknamed "Blackie" by other schoolkids from Appalachia, and don't even ask me what family road trips were like when we dipped below the Mason-Dixon line.
posted by availablelight at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2008
I've been confidently assessed as Jewish, Cuban, Mexican, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Muslim (with bonus profiling and shouted slurs after 9/11), and, did I mention Jewish (which is shorthand for "'Other' with a non-button nose")?
I was nicknamed "Blackie" by other schoolkids from Appalachia, and don't even ask me what family road trips were like when we dipped below the Mason-Dixon line.
posted by availablelight at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2008
[who's = whose, and, on preview, fairytale of los angeles, I'm guessing based on my own experience that your geneticist friend wouldn't know how to parse my appearance down to the Balkan level.]
posted by availablelight at 9:54 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by availablelight at 9:54 AM on December 2, 2008
I'm constantly asked if I'm European (usually French), but no, I'm San Francisco born and raised. I do have a pretty odd ethnic mix though - Irish, Turkish, and Cheremis are the parts I know. Basically I look like a Hazara, with fair skin, almost black hair, and grey-green eyes.
My mom's ancestors immigrated from Georgia, and are Russian speaking. When I took Russian in college, many of my fellow students were Russian immigrants seeking an easy "A." When my professor was surprised that I sounded like a native speaker, I explained it by saying "my family is Russian and I grew up hearing it." This comment sparked a lot of "You are not *really* Russian" comments from the immigrant students - for some reason, they could tell solely by my appearance that I was of different ethnicity than "true Russians."
Anyway, that's my longwinded way of saying that I've encountered a number of Russians who insist that there is a "true Russian" phenotype and that they can recognize it. And, sadly, there seemed to be an undercurrent of racism attached.
posted by chez shoes at 10:08 AM on December 2, 2008
My mom's ancestors immigrated from Georgia, and are Russian speaking. When I took Russian in college, many of my fellow students were Russian immigrants seeking an easy "A." When my professor was surprised that I sounded like a native speaker, I explained it by saying "my family is Russian and I grew up hearing it." This comment sparked a lot of "You are not *really* Russian" comments from the immigrant students - for some reason, they could tell solely by my appearance that I was of different ethnicity than "true Russians."
Anyway, that's my longwinded way of saying that I've encountered a number of Russians who insist that there is a "true Russian" phenotype and that they can recognize it. And, sadly, there seemed to be an undercurrent of racism attached.
posted by chez shoes at 10:08 AM on December 2, 2008
Yeah, a lot of the speculation and alleged ability to identify nationality by facial appearance alone sounds a lot like phrenology to me, to be honest, especially when you wander into the territory of blurring the line between nationality and race.
As I said, most people are processing numerous cues simultaneously that might bring them to their conclusions about your nationality. Most of these cues are based on characteristics such as speech mannerisms, facial expressions, wardrobe, posture, gait, and so on, which are often common to people of one culture. These characteristics are much more likely to exist, as a set, within the confines of a single culture than any genetic markers which often spill far and wide across multiple cultures. For example, my own national make-up is fairly diverse, and no one in America has been able to guess "what" I am, but when I've been outside the US, people are able to guess pretty quickly that I'm American.
To assert that it's possible to tell the difference between an Irishman and an Irish-American by facial features alone would be ludicrous.
Here's a map of Europe made by making facial composites of players on national soccer teams. Here's another one with the same idea.
The maps are fun to look at, but I don't think it makes much sense to average faces. Personally, I think most Europeans/Asians/Africans/etc. have similar facial features, but there are the few "outlier" faces that look strongly French/Swedish/Italian/etc. - it's from those that we get the ideas of which country should look like what.
What's very interesting about both maps is how nearly identical the different European faces look. This is probably because they've taken the erroneous strategy of believing that facial composites = a compiled national face. On the contrary, as most modern Europeans - especially those of footballer age - are themselves a cultural blend from other nationalities, compiling their faces together is going to give you a rather generic, pan-European face. And did they even consider the fact that most football teams frequently trade players across national boundaries?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:19 AM on December 2, 2008
As I said, most people are processing numerous cues simultaneously that might bring them to their conclusions about your nationality. Most of these cues are based on characteristics such as speech mannerisms, facial expressions, wardrobe, posture, gait, and so on, which are often common to people of one culture. These characteristics are much more likely to exist, as a set, within the confines of a single culture than any genetic markers which often spill far and wide across multiple cultures. For example, my own national make-up is fairly diverse, and no one in America has been able to guess "what" I am, but when I've been outside the US, people are able to guess pretty quickly that I'm American.
To assert that it's possible to tell the difference between an Irishman and an Irish-American by facial features alone would be ludicrous.
Here's a map of Europe made by making facial composites of players on national soccer teams. Here's another one with the same idea.
The maps are fun to look at, but I don't think it makes much sense to average faces. Personally, I think most Europeans/Asians/Africans/etc. have similar facial features, but there are the few "outlier" faces that look strongly French/Swedish/Italian/etc. - it's from those that we get the ideas of which country should look like what.
What's very interesting about both maps is how nearly identical the different European faces look. This is probably because they've taken the erroneous strategy of believing that facial composites = a compiled national face. On the contrary, as most modern Europeans - especially those of footballer age - are themselves a cultural blend from other nationalities, compiling their faces together is going to give you a rather generic, pan-European face. And did they even consider the fact that most football teams frequently trade players across national boundaries?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:19 AM on December 2, 2008
My friend's mom, who was born and raised near Dublin, used to say "You can always tell an Englishman - he's got a chin that you could drive a horse and cart over." Don't know how "true" that stereotype is.
When I travel overseas no one ever guesses my nationality (I have blue eyes, medium blonde hair and a - I think - non-descript face.) But I'll always get strangers saying "I'll bet you're an American!" before I speak and they hear my accent. Now, I don't wear white sneakers or a camera around my neck, I'm not boisterous and I try to "go with the flow" and not be pushy or obnoxious. I've asked a few folks how they guessed, and they said it was my teeth and the way I walk. (???)
posted by Oriole Adams at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2008
When I travel overseas no one ever guesses my nationality (I have blue eyes, medium blonde hair and a - I think - non-descript face.) But I'll always get strangers saying "I'll bet you're an American!" before I speak and they hear my accent. Now, I don't wear white sneakers or a camera around my neck, I'm not boisterous and I try to "go with the flow" and not be pushy or obnoxious. I've asked a few folks how they guessed, and they said it was my teeth and the way I walk. (???)
posted by Oriole Adams at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2008
I think some of it is styles and facial expressions - for my part, I can usually tell if a woman is German, after growing up going to a small school with several German friends... I also think some of it is clothing (there's a very different sensibility I've noticed) and also things like hair and eye color and skin tone.
Also, I immediately thought my boss's husband looked British, despite his American accent, and talking to her I found out his father is, and he was raised in London.
This might sound odd, but I've noticed Europe has a higher proliferation of people with sort of fleshy hair color... that, to me, always makes me think someone looks European. It just doesn't seem to happen here as much... or maybe it does and then gets smothered in Clairol.
posted by SputnikSweetheart at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2008
Also, I immediately thought my boss's husband looked British, despite his American accent, and talking to her I found out his father is, and he was raised in London.
This might sound odd, but I've noticed Europe has a higher proliferation of people with sort of fleshy hair color... that, to me, always makes me think someone looks European. It just doesn't seem to happen here as much... or maybe it does and then gets smothered in Clairol.
posted by SputnikSweetheart at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2008
or between "Asians" -- e.g., between Koreans and Japanese people.
Heh. My Japanese teacher once told us how she visited a large Japanese market near here and discovered, after speaking to them, that the employees she took for Japanese were actually Korean.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2008
Heh. My Japanese teacher once told us how she visited a large Japanese market near here and discovered, after speaking to them, that the employees she took for Japanese were actually Korean.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2008
I see Europe as tribal the same as Africa and when I lived there it was fun to try to pick out the features of the different tribes. I have worse luck in the states because everyone's mixed but once in a while someone will pop out as looking super Brit or something. (The barrista downstairs is a particular kind of white and has small, pointy features all in the middle of his face. (Sort of like Pippin in Lord of the Rings- that actor was Scottish I think.) To me that looks UK. I'm not disparaging it, btw- I think it's cute.)
posted by small_ruminant at 10:27 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by small_ruminant at 10:27 AM on December 2, 2008
Don't know how "true" that stereotype is.
It is true in the same way that gravity makes my head slam against the sky true.
posted by vbfg at 10:27 AM on December 2, 2008
It is true in the same way that gravity makes my head slam against the sky true.
posted by vbfg at 10:27 AM on December 2, 2008
I've asked a few folks how they guessed, and they said it was my teeth and the way I walk. (???)
A professor of mine said she could always pick out a west coaster because "you all walk like you just got off a horse." Maybe we're used to more space and so have an easier, longer gait?
posted by small_ruminant at 10:29 AM on December 2, 2008
A professor of mine said she could always pick out a west coaster because "you all walk like you just got off a horse." Maybe we're used to more space and so have an easier, longer gait?
posted by small_ruminant at 10:29 AM on December 2, 2008
"You are not *really* Russian" comments from the immigrant students - for some reason, they could tell solely by my appearance that I was of different ethnicity than "true Russians."
And while I'm overposting... the older, more ignorant Russians I know refuse to consider Asian-Americans "American." Only whites (and maybe blacks?) are really American. To them, if a couple of your great grandparents came from Japan, you're Japanese- period. It's very annoying.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:33 AM on December 2, 2008
And while I'm overposting... the older, more ignorant Russians I know refuse to consider Asian-Americans "American." Only whites (and maybe blacks?) are really American. To them, if a couple of your great grandparents came from Japan, you're Japanese- period. It's very annoying.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:33 AM on December 2, 2008
Oops. You've already been there. This has been driving me crazy because I seem to recall seeing something like the above--but better.
posted by Restless Day at 10:53 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by Restless Day at 10:53 AM on December 2, 2008
Because the African continent's modern nations are still hack wounds left by European colonialism, I'd imagine that Africans vary more by older tribal groups than modern countries
Heh. My Japanese teacher once told us how she visited a large Japanese market near here and discovered, after speaking to them, that the employees she took for Japanese were actually Korean.
Right, of course there's no exact mapping between features and nationality. Lots of Irish-looking Celtic folks up there in Galicia, but then again my best Gallego buddy always called himself "Suevo" (Spanish for Suebic, the 5th century AD conquerors of Galicia) because he looked more Northern European than Celtic.
posted by footnote at 10:53 AM on December 2, 2008
Heh. My Japanese teacher once told us how she visited a large Japanese market near here and discovered, after speaking to them, that the employees she took for Japanese were actually Korean.
Right, of course there's no exact mapping between features and nationality. Lots of Irish-looking Celtic folks up there in Galicia, but then again my best Gallego buddy always called himself "Suevo" (Spanish for Suebic, the 5th century AD conquerors of Galicia) because he looked more Northern European than Celtic.
posted by footnote at 10:53 AM on December 2, 2008
I went to a wedding in the UK, and had a guest turn to me and ask casually, "So, what part of Southern Ireland are you from?". I'm from Texas- he obviously hadn't heard me speak- and am basically a British/Northern European mutt. I assume he made his guess based on my reddish hair, pale skin and blue eyes, and perhaps my facial structure. I don't quite understand why people are pshawing the whole idea of people from different ethnic groups looking distinct. Obviously mixing complicates the question, but saying "oh well everyone looks the same really" is stupid. Different tribes and ethnic groups in Africa and Asia and South America and anywhere else you can name look different- why shouldn't the same rule apply to Europeans? Europeans are perhaps just more removed from notions of tribe or ethnic group and more attuned to nationality, which doesn't really have anything to do with your ethnic background.
posted by MadamM at 11:08 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by MadamM at 11:08 AM on December 2, 2008
is there much difference in appearances between people of various European backgrounds?
Absolutely.
While no one can look at just any person of Scottish descent and say "that's a Scot", there are certain characteristics/combinations that you almost *only* find in Scottish bloodlines. If you possess them (and it sounds like you do) then it's a pretty good guess that you're a Scot.
The same is true through much of continental europe, although the groups there seldom divide based on modern country borders. It's usually a regional thing, dating back to the extemely long period in human history when regional inbreeding was the only option people had.
Modern travel lead to massive crossbreeding in Europe around 100 years ago, so various traits are getting spread around -- as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to pinpoint an origin in Europe. About 40 years ago we entered the era of global mobility, and now the whole world is entering the same phase. Another five or six generations and worldwide genes will be so thoroughly intermixed that it will be impossible to even guess any more.
posted by tkolar at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2008
Absolutely.
While no one can look at just any person of Scottish descent and say "that's a Scot", there are certain characteristics/combinations that you almost *only* find in Scottish bloodlines. If you possess them (and it sounds like you do) then it's a pretty good guess that you're a Scot.
The same is true through much of continental europe, although the groups there seldom divide based on modern country borders. It's usually a regional thing, dating back to the extemely long period in human history when regional inbreeding was the only option people had.
Modern travel lead to massive crossbreeding in Europe around 100 years ago, so various traits are getting spread around -- as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to pinpoint an origin in Europe. About 40 years ago we entered the era of global mobility, and now the whole world is entering the same phase. Another five or six generations and worldwide genes will be so thoroughly intermixed that it will be impossible to even guess any more.
posted by tkolar at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2008
I've had pretty good luck judging European ancestry based on physical characteristics. My mom's side of the family is Finnish, and there's definitely a "look" that can be easy to recognize if you know what to look for - "triangle" eyes, flipped up nose, high cheekbones, fine hair. I also have good luck recognizing Germans based on their almost non-existent cheekbones. I can usually even tell Irish and Scottish apart. I think it might have to do with where you grew up - I lived in a pretty white area growing up, so I might be tuned in to subtler differences in body composition than someone who grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with its rainbow of inhabitants.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:18 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:18 AM on December 2, 2008
I get some funny reactions here in the States. People seem shocked when I come out with my English (London, although very few Yanks know that) accent. I guess they just assume that I look American. Then, if the conversation gets to it, I tell them that I'm half Spanish, and I almost always get a 'Oh, so that's why!' reaction. I think quite a few people in the States assume by my appearance that I'm Italian-American. I've never met anyone in the US who has picked me out as being a Brit. That is until I open my big mouth.
posted by ob at 11:19 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by ob at 11:19 AM on December 2, 2008
I should say that my (Spanish) mother claims that you can tell Americans (white Americans) by their round faces. I don't see it myself.
posted by ob at 11:22 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by ob at 11:22 AM on December 2, 2008
You're not a redhead. Do you have kind of light hair, or maybe pale-ish skin and a hint of (or very) rosy cheeks? That's what usually gives 'some strain of Brit' away.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:26 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:26 AM on December 2, 2008
Like others here, people always get me wrong - in Eastern and Central Europe, people invariably assume I'm German, in Scotland, I've had bigoted dickheads give me abuse for looking Catholic (really, I had to run away from kids following an Orange March once), in France, I've been taken for French quite a few times. I'm actually English-Welsh-Scottish, and an eighth Jamaican (which is funny, as I'm as white as you get without being a full-blown ginger).
I think what pravit says about people enjoying this ethnicity/nationality-spotting game is right - it'd be interesting to study how accurate people are.
As an aside, my party trick is guessing whether Liverpudlians support Everton or Liverpool on sight (and hearing their accent). I've only got it wrong once, and it's earned me a fair few free pints over the years.
ericb: " whenever I'm in the US, I get hit on by guys all the time (I'm a straight guy...
Gay or European."
Hah, I thought me and a friend of mine invented that game (during the Edinburgh Festivals, when there are extra people of both denominations wandering about).
posted by jack_mo at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2008
I think what pravit says about people enjoying this ethnicity/nationality-spotting game is right - it'd be interesting to study how accurate people are.
As an aside, my party trick is guessing whether Liverpudlians support Everton or Liverpool on sight (and hearing their accent). I've only got it wrong once, and it's earned me a fair few free pints over the years.
ericb: " whenever I'm in the US, I get hit on by guys all the time (I'm a straight guy...
Gay or European."
Hah, I thought me and a friend of mine invented that game (during the Edinburgh Festivals, when there are extra people of both denominations wandering about).
posted by jack_mo at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2008
Also, gait and mannerisms must be a huge part of it. Watching Idris Elba in The Wire, he was, to this non-American, convincingly American, just because of the way he walks and tilts his head.
posted by jack_mo at 11:39 AM on December 2, 2008
posted by jack_mo at 11:39 AM on December 2, 2008
I'm pretty good at this, except when I'm wrong. I've actually been able to pick out people's percentages of various European ancestry by looking at them.
But I wouldn't be able to put my finger on what it is, other than liking to look at people and then asking them what their ancestry is.
I think it's body shapes as much as anything. I know a lot of Canadian Scots (Cape Bretoners), and I associate them with a body shape...skinny legs, no butt, and then a big belly hanging over it. My mom calls it barrel chested. The women tend to be solidly built, generally not fat, not overly large hips. Strong faces.
Irish men to me seem squarer in shape, lankier. Irish women are to some degree softer in build.
Like I said, I find these to be right until they are wrong.
posted by sully75 at 11:58 AM on December 2, 2008
But I wouldn't be able to put my finger on what it is, other than liking to look at people and then asking them what their ancestry is.
I think it's body shapes as much as anything. I know a lot of Canadian Scots (Cape Bretoners), and I associate them with a body shape...skinny legs, no butt, and then a big belly hanging over it. My mom calls it barrel chested. The women tend to be solidly built, generally not fat, not overly large hips. Strong faces.
Irish men to me seem squarer in shape, lankier. Irish women are to some degree softer in build.
Like I said, I find these to be right until they are wrong.
posted by sully75 at 11:58 AM on December 2, 2008
Not just Europe - growing up in RI, you learn to spot New Englanders with deep roots in the area by sight, and how to pick out someone of Portuguese descent from someone who's family came over from Southern Italy.
It's not 100% accurate, or even 80%, but it's definitely more than half the time.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:59 AM on December 2, 2008
It's not 100% accurate, or even 80%, but it's definitely more than half the time.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:59 AM on December 2, 2008
Yeah, it's not so much that (eg) all Scots look like Scots, but that there are some features which are really big signposts. Alex Salmond, for example couldn't look more Scottish if he were trying, appropriately enough. But then one can also say the same of former Irish Labour Party leader Pat Rabbitte. There's a lot of crossover between the two countries.
Irish people do seem to exclusively own one particular shade of blue eye colour, too. I've never met a blue-eyed UKer with eyes of the particular dark blue that seemingly all blue-eyed Irish people have.
People in Ireland will often say that there are only five male and five female faces shared between everybody. It's an exaggeration - but not a huge one.
posted by genghis at 12:12 PM on December 2, 2008
Irish people do seem to exclusively own one particular shade of blue eye colour, too. I've never met a blue-eyed UKer with eyes of the particular dark blue that seemingly all blue-eyed Irish people have.
People in Ireland will often say that there are only five male and five female faces shared between everybody. It's an exaggeration - but not a huge one.
posted by genghis at 12:12 PM on December 2, 2008
Response by poster: You're not a redhead. Do you have kind of light hair, or maybe pale-ish skin and a hint of (or very) rosy cheeks? That's what usually gives 'some strain of Brit' away.
Hm. Well, yes, except I've got dark reddish brown hair--but not the flaming orange shade that compels people to accost gingers and demand "Are you Irish?!" And again, I walk, talk, and quack like an American, so it's got nothing to do with how I walk or dress.
Moving beyond the anecdotal, I started thinking of Hollywood representations of Europeans. There are certain colorings that seem to be the preferred representations of "Scottishness" in movies like Braveheart. I remember watching a behind-the-scenes feature where the makeup artist talked about giving extras blue- and green-tinted contacts. Mel Gibson typified the blue-eyed, dark haired Celtic stereotype, and he's Australian (maybe via Scotland, maybe not). No one in Trainspotting fits that mold, but that wasn't a mass-marketed Hollywoodized version of Scottish patriots.
Again, I never would have given this hypothesis much thought if people didn't keep accurately guessing my heritage, so I wondered if there was some truth to the stereotypes. And because my family comes from such an isolated town in northern Scotland, almost totally beyond the reach of historic invasions, globalization and immigration, I figured we probably got some "purified" (re: inbred) characteristics.
Given the high rate of anecdotes and paltry evidence to back it up, it seems the conclusion is that we have a handful of stereotypes, reinforced by self-confirmation bias, and little else. I wondered if a few Brits (or whoever) might come forward and say either, "Sure, I can recognize my own kind anywhere," or discount it as rubbish. Seems like the latter. I guess we're already members of a very globalized, phenotype-blurring world, eh? Neat.
posted by zoomorphic at 12:15 PM on December 2, 2008
Hm. Well, yes, except I've got dark reddish brown hair--but not the flaming orange shade that compels people to accost gingers and demand "Are you Irish?!" And again, I walk, talk, and quack like an American, so it's got nothing to do with how I walk or dress.
Moving beyond the anecdotal, I started thinking of Hollywood representations of Europeans. There are certain colorings that seem to be the preferred representations of "Scottishness" in movies like Braveheart. I remember watching a behind-the-scenes feature where the makeup artist talked about giving extras blue- and green-tinted contacts. Mel Gibson typified the blue-eyed, dark haired Celtic stereotype, and he's Australian (maybe via Scotland, maybe not). No one in Trainspotting fits that mold, but that wasn't a mass-marketed Hollywoodized version of Scottish patriots.
Again, I never would have given this hypothesis much thought if people didn't keep accurately guessing my heritage, so I wondered if there was some truth to the stereotypes. And because my family comes from such an isolated town in northern Scotland, almost totally beyond the reach of historic invasions, globalization and immigration, I figured we probably got some "purified" (re: inbred) characteristics.
Given the high rate of anecdotes and paltry evidence to back it up, it seems the conclusion is that we have a handful of stereotypes, reinforced by self-confirmation bias, and little else. I wondered if a few Brits (or whoever) might come forward and say either, "Sure, I can recognize my own kind anywhere," or discount it as rubbish. Seems like the latter. I guess we're already members of a very globalized, phenotype-blurring world, eh? Neat.
posted by zoomorphic at 12:15 PM on December 2, 2008
In my family, the joke was always "He must be English, look at his knobbly knees".
It doesn't seem to matter if they're athletic or skinny.
This, along with other characteristics (a rounder face, slightly larger ears than are strictly necessary, that halfway-between-black-and-blonde brown hair) all seem to add up to Englishness. It's not 100% accurate, of course, but in conversation, it's proven accurate enough to distinguish someone with a couple of recent English ancestors.
Also, Englishmen seem to achieve a certain level of portliness that eludes Americans. Maybe it's a height thing, but that sort of compact stoutness always triggers my Britdar.
I'm also pretty good at distinguishing people of Italian descent (and Polish, oddly enough) but I'm absolutely horrible at telling if someone is Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.
But since I grew up around a lot of New York Italians and not many Asians, that's probably not surprising.
posted by madajb at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008
It doesn't seem to matter if they're athletic or skinny.
This, along with other characteristics (a rounder face, slightly larger ears than are strictly necessary, that halfway-between-black-and-blonde brown hair) all seem to add up to Englishness. It's not 100% accurate, of course, but in conversation, it's proven accurate enough to distinguish someone with a couple of recent English ancestors.
Also, Englishmen seem to achieve a certain level of portliness that eludes Americans. Maybe it's a height thing, but that sort of compact stoutness always triggers my Britdar.
I'm also pretty good at distinguishing people of Italian descent (and Polish, oddly enough) but I'm absolutely horrible at telling if someone is Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.
But since I grew up around a lot of New York Italians and not many Asians, that's probably not surprising.
posted by madajb at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2008
Best answer: Right, asked my husband what he thought to get a blunt Yorkshireman's response. He said yes, he can tell someone from another part of Europe on sight. Some of it is looks... i.e. some slavs have very blue or almond eyes. The rest of it is dress and manner, though. Body language more than anything else.
I'd have to agree with him. If you think about the overall migration patterns in Europe in the past 1,000 yrs, it's a bit silly and overromantic to start going on about, say, northern English people looking incredibly different from their distant Scandanavian or Germanic tribal ancestors. The Welsh, maybe, but especially in Scotland and parts of Ireland you have Viking genes agogo. The Vikings got around, too... the city of Kiev was founded by the Vikings. They didn't just smash and grab - the Vikings settled and farmed as well as traded. In other words, they came and stayed wherever they landed, and changed the local gene pool in the process.
For what it's worth, I can tell someone's American or that they're from another part of Europe by their body language. If you're being asked about being English or Scottish in continental Europe, it's probably because you're fair-ish & give off a non-continental European vibe (ergo, not German). I can tell someone's American at 50 paces, mainly because their body language is so different to the English.
And my husband popped his head back in the room to emphasise that he rarely can tell a Scot just from appearance.
posted by Grrlscout at 12:37 PM on December 2, 2008
I'd have to agree with him. If you think about the overall migration patterns in Europe in the past 1,000 yrs, it's a bit silly and overromantic to start going on about, say, northern English people looking incredibly different from their distant Scandanavian or Germanic tribal ancestors. The Welsh, maybe, but especially in Scotland and parts of Ireland you have Viking genes agogo. The Vikings got around, too... the city of Kiev was founded by the Vikings. They didn't just smash and grab - the Vikings settled and farmed as well as traded. In other words, they came and stayed wherever they landed, and changed the local gene pool in the process.
For what it's worth, I can tell someone's American or that they're from another part of Europe by their body language. If you're being asked about being English or Scottish in continental Europe, it's probably because you're fair-ish & give off a non-continental European vibe (ergo, not German). I can tell someone's American at 50 paces, mainly because their body language is so different to the English.
And my husband popped his head back in the room to emphasise that he rarely can tell a Scot just from appearance.
posted by Grrlscout at 12:37 PM on December 2, 2008
This is very interesting to me, because I have been told many times that I don't look American (which I am). I am genetically half Russian Jew (my father), while my mother is German/Danish/Belgian in an uncertain ratio. I did a semester abroad in Prague, and the Czechs assumed I was Czech but could tell that the other students were not (which mostly meant shrugging apologetically at little old ladies on the metro when they tried to start conversations, and never being asked for my transit pass, which is something tourists tend to be targets for). To be fair, when I got to the Czech Republic, I did have an eerie sense that everyone sort of looked like me. I'm not Czech at all though (though the CR is pretty much exactly between my actual countries of heritage, which is also kind of neat).
Now I live in a very Polish neighborhood and I am often mistaken for as Polish.
I have lightish brown hair and lightish greenish eyes and smallish, pointy features and very prominent, high cheekbones. I think it's the pointiness and the cheekbones that make me look not-American. But who knows.
posted by millipede at 1:31 PM on December 2, 2008
Now I live in a very Polish neighborhood and I am often mistaken for as Polish.
I have lightish brown hair and lightish greenish eyes and smallish, pointy features and very prominent, high cheekbones. I think it's the pointiness and the cheekbones that make me look not-American. But who knows.
posted by millipede at 1:31 PM on December 2, 2008
because I have been told many times that I don't look American
How can someone not look American?
I think I've been in the SF Bay Area too long.
posted by tkolar at 2:07 PM on December 2, 2008
How can someone not look American?
I think I've been in the SF Bay Area too long.
posted by tkolar at 2:07 PM on December 2, 2008
One can sit on a corner in Transylvania and guess who's a native Hungarian speaker or a native Romanian speaker with relative ease and a high degree of accuracy, despite centuries of interaction between the two peoples. And in Europe, I'm generally (and correctly) assumed to be of Slavic origin, presumably because I'm tall, slender, have a roundish head and distinct cheekbones. Beyond that, a lot of people also guess I'm from the former Yugoslavia, for whatever reason (I reckon it's the Turkish part of me, especially in the color of my eyes and hair.) There's a lot of room for error in the mostly small countries of Eastern and Central Europe, but generally, Estonians look Estonian, Poles look Polish, Greeks look Greek and so on.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:40 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:40 PM on December 2, 2008 [1 favorite]
I find it easy to spot *Americans*. Besides the clothing, many Americans (especially teenage girls) are very tan, have very white teeth and a curious absence of freckles.
As for Europeans, yes this is somewhat easy too at times, especially Dutch, French, British or German but that may be because I've spent a lot of time in those countries.
My background is British. I've only been mistaken as something else once (Austrian).
posted by wingless_angel at 2:46 PM on December 2, 2008
As for Europeans, yes this is somewhat easy too at times, especially Dutch, French, British or German but that may be because I've spent a lot of time in those countries.
My background is British. I've only been mistaken as something else once (Austrian).
posted by wingless_angel at 2:46 PM on December 2, 2008
I'm something like 1/8 Russian, 1/8 Ukrainian, and a while back, I worked with a woman from Georgia (not the one with Alabama), and one day, she turned to me and said, "you know, you look Ukrainian." I went home and asked, and it turned out my grandfather, who I'd always assumed was just Russian, was actually half Ukrainian. Aside from being the strangest comment I've received to date, I actually learned something about my family history.
My wife, who is Japanese, gets rather upset when I don't realize someone isn't Japanese, or Chinese, or Korean. Usually, I can tell a little bit, though sometimes it is about clothing and body language.
On the other hand, I can spot a British woman from a mile away. With men, I'm not quite as good, but I'm nearly 100% on British women.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:23 PM on December 2, 2008
My wife, who is Japanese, gets rather upset when I don't realize someone isn't Japanese, or Chinese, or Korean. Usually, I can tell a little bit, though sometimes it is about clothing and body language.
On the other hand, I can spot a British woman from a mile away. With men, I'm not quite as good, but I'm nearly 100% on British women.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:23 PM on December 2, 2008
I understand that the UK more isolated than the US, but it's no Iceland.
Ha. I'm an American mutt (German/Swedish/Brit) and when I was in Iceland, I blended in. I weirdly look almost exactly like my German/Brit father and yet totally Scandinavian. I've often been told that I don't "look American" both by Americans *and* Europeans. The general consensus is that I look Swedish (not Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, or Icelandic - specifically Swedish) which makes sense... except for as you mention, it doesn't.
(One person told me that I "don't look American, [I] look French or something." That one just boggled my mind and my first thought was she'd obviously never been to France.)
I can definitely identify what you're talking about. I've certainly been able to spot other Americans abroad and pick out Europeans from a crowd here at home. I don't know if it's really facial characteristics so much as demeanor or expression. I would guess that expression must play a large part of it - as I mentioned, I personally look like my German/Brit dad, but having grown up with my Swedish mom, I have most of her mannerisms. And lo, everyone thinks I'm Swedish. (Though weirdly, I *do* look Scandinavian and my dad totally does not.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:24 PM on December 2, 2008
Ha. I'm an American mutt (German/Swedish/Brit) and when I was in Iceland, I blended in. I weirdly look almost exactly like my German/Brit father and yet totally Scandinavian. I've often been told that I don't "look American" both by Americans *and* Europeans. The general consensus is that I look Swedish (not Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, or Icelandic - specifically Swedish) which makes sense... except for as you mention, it doesn't.
(One person told me that I "don't look American, [I] look French or something." That one just boggled my mind and my first thought was she'd obviously never been to France.)
I can definitely identify what you're talking about. I've certainly been able to spot other Americans abroad and pick out Europeans from a crowd here at home. I don't know if it's really facial characteristics so much as demeanor or expression. I would guess that expression must play a large part of it - as I mentioned, I personally look like my German/Brit dad, but having grown up with my Swedish mom, I have most of her mannerisms. And lo, everyone thinks I'm Swedish. (Though weirdly, I *do* look Scandinavian and my dad totally does not.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:24 PM on December 2, 2008
There is definitely an Irish look or looks; I remember when I returned from my first summer abroad. I had spent in in Newport, RI, where about 1000 other Irish kids were running around doing the same thing. Over the summer, we were always able to spot each other, of course - we were the ones drinking all day and working minimum wage. But we had gotten into the habit of scanning crowds for our compatriots. When I landed back in Dublin, out of habit I was doing the same thing, and I kept getting this weird feeling that people looked terribly familiar - thinking to myself "Don't I know him/her?". I eventually realised I was spotting, over and over, "Irish" faces in an Irish crowd.
However, my dad, 100% Irish, but very dark, was regularly mistaken for Puerto Rican in New York in the 1970s. To the point where Puerto Ricans would frequently come up to him and ask for directions or whatever.
apparently, the Puerto Rican girls dug him too, but I didn't enquire too closely about that
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:21 AM on December 3, 2008
However, my dad, 100% Irish, but very dark, was regularly mistaken for Puerto Rican in New York in the 1970s. To the point where Puerto Ricans would frequently come up to him and ask for directions or whatever.
apparently, the Puerto Rican girls dug him too, but I didn't enquire too closely about that
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:21 AM on December 3, 2008
Oh, and the first Hazara child in the national geographic link? That could be me at that age. Looks and genetics are weird.
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:27 AM on December 3, 2008
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:27 AM on December 3, 2008
Best answer: I object to the title of this question.
posted by HotToddy at 9:06 AM on December 3, 2008
posted by HotToddy at 9:06 AM on December 3, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jquinby at 8:28 AM on December 2, 2008