Dealing with Long Commutes

September 28, 2004 3:34 AM

How far is too far to travel to work each day? How do you cope with a long commute? [MI]

I currently live about a 15 minute train journey to my workplace in the CBD. My partner and I are thinking of moving to the country where we can actually afford to buy a house rather than rent - but it will be a 30 minute drive and about an hour train trip each way. Does anyone else have to deal with a commute time this long? How do you cope with it, and how has it affected your lifestyle?

posted by Jimbob to work & money (37 comments total)

Is that 30 minutes door to door and is it consistent? I commonly drive thirty minutes and actually I feel lucky when it really is 30. Of course I live outside Boston where the traffic is notoriously evil. It would not be unheard of for me to drive for one hour if traffic was bad.

But I've found that if the drive is consistent then it's easier to deal with, you simply acclimate. You'll probably get recommendations for audiobooks, personally I never got into them and I just listen to music, think about what I have to do when I get home/work.

It does affect you somewhat when coming home, sometimes a longer drive can almost feel like a continuation of work. I would suggest setting up a routine to make the transition between nothome/home defined: take a shower, change your clothes. Sounds obvious but many times I've come right home and jumped right into the kitchen to make dinner. It usually doesn't work too well.
posted by jeremias at 4:13 AM on September 28, 2004

I used to do a 1.5-2 hour commute each way, and I lasted nine months (funnily enough, driving would have taken 30 minutes, God bless public transport).

What's really important is how reliable your links are. Will you be able to park without a headache, or will you be crawling around the lot looking for a space? Will you be fighting for a seat on the train, or will it be easy? These will be the deciding factors. In my case, I bought a first class ticket, but often couldn't get a seat (this is England for you), trains were often late, and the bus connections could be unreliable.

The time itself should be bearable, considering the reasons behind it (owning a house), but you need to think of the other irritation factors. Standing on a train for two hours a day is not fun.
posted by wackybrit at 4:16 AM on September 28, 2004

i was doing 50 minutes (40 miles) each way in a car, which was actually quite nice - the drive was really easy (living in the city and working in the country means going against the normal flow of commuters), the view was beautiful, and i have a CD player in the car - although it was nice to catch up with the news every day, and john humphreys on radio 4 became my hero. so it was a good chance to relax, wake up properly and have some personal time before getting to work.

the only down side was all the money i was spending on petrol. and of course once when i got halfway to work and realized i've forgotten the laptop.
posted by nylon at 4:39 AM on September 28, 2004

It takes me about 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 hours each way and don't find it too bad. I have a 20 min walk to the station, 40-45 mins on the train and then about a 5 min journey on the tube. I thought I'd hate the commute to London every day but you find your own way of coping.

I like to read the free 'metro' newspaper on the train until someone sits next to me and then sleep the rest of the way. It also helps that I do shift work and can nearly always get a seat as I just miss the busiest times (particularly on the tube). If I had to work the normal 9-5 I don't think I would have lasted with the commute nearly as well as I have.
posted by floanna at 4:55 AM on September 28, 2004

Old - In San Antonio: 40 minutes of white-knuckling at 75mph on I-10 for a 29-mile drive (each way).

New - In Montana: 23 minutes of serene, blissful tranquility at 35-40 mph along the bank of the Missouri River, watching the Canadian geese, for a 9-mile drive (each way).
posted by davidmsc at 5:26 AM on September 28, 2004

I drive from Maplewood, NJ to Princeton, NJ, and it takes 50 min. to an hour. I only work, however, four days a week, but it makes my days twelve hours long. I have an MP3 CD player in my car, so I can fit about 12 albums on there. So, it isn't so bad. My wife commutes to NYC, so she reads Avantgo news on her PDA, and listens to music.
posted by adampsyche at 5:37 AM on September 28, 2004

This is probably meaningless, but I can't resist: 1.5 hour commute = 3 hours a day. 5 days a week = 15 hours. 15 hours times, oh, let's say maybe 48 weeks in the year = 720 hours. Divided by 24 = 30 days of the year you'll be spending commuting. Almost 1/12 of the year. So, wackybrit has the right idea to closely consider the commuting conditions -- it might be great to get a lot of relaxing reading done in the train, but will you be able to get a seat?
posted by JanetLand at 5:37 AM on September 28, 2004

The drive is easy - 50kms of easy country highway to the train station, and the train shouldn't be too bad - i'll be getting on at the first stop, so a seat won't be a problem. I'm hoping to spend the time on the train catching up on reading some research papers...and I guess I can use the savings on rent to finally get one of them new-fangled iPods for the journey. Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

Jeremias - I think routine will be the key. At the moment, I know I can sleep in if I feel like it because trains come every few minutes and I won't be that late - I think I'll just have to train myself to conform to a stricter schedule and get used to it.

Adampsyche, I'm considering taking that option too - 4 days a week, longer days, if I've got the stamina!
posted by Jimbob at 5:43 AM on September 28, 2004

Long commutes are okay if you either love your job or you love where you live.
posted by sexymofo at 5:56 AM on September 28, 2004

daily commuting is soul destroying.

seriously consider changing your job and housing expectations so that you can live near where you work, or find some other solution (i currently work shifts away from home (which squashes 2 weeks work into 8 days and then leaves 6 at home), i've also worked from home).
posted by andrew cooke at 6:09 AM on September 28, 2004

I remember doing a 2 hour commute (that's 4 hours per day!) in Japan for 6 months.

Will you be able to park without a headache, or will you be crawling around the lot looking for a space? Will you be fighting for a seat on the train, or will it be easy? These will be the deciding factors.

wackybrit picks up on a good point - the hassles involved with travelling itself.

I would get to the train station at 6.20AM for my 6.40AM train and queue up on the platform for a particular train door. Even though my stop was the first stop of the train journey and the train would roll in completely empty, there would be a mad dash for seats, always leaving about 10% of people pissed off having to stand up. If I got there at 6.21AM, I would be one of those people having to stand up. Oh, I'd have to stand up most of the way back home. It was the boredom that killed me in the end, and the real feeling that I was utterly wasting my time being in a train four hours a day, 20 hours per week.
posted by SpaceCadet at 6:12 AM on September 28, 2004

You might be interested in checking out the book Edge City. It's been a while since I read it, but the author suggests that people make an intuitive tradeoff in commute time vs property value, such that they value their commute time at half their hourly wage (whatever that works out to for salaried folk). Project out your commute time for a year (?), multiply it by that half-wage, and that gives the amount that you'd need to save on the house to make it worthwhile.

Mind you, this is an observed rule of thumb, not a normative rule, although if everyone works where you do, and makes the same commute, they'd be applying the same rule to your house if you ever wanted to sell it.

I've had commutes that were 60 minutes by car on a good day, and commutes that were 30 minutes on the train. I work at home now. If I had to commute, I'd be unwilling to put up with more than 15 minutes each way, unless I was having fun on the way.
posted by adamrice at 6:18 AM on September 28, 2004

Long commutes are okay if you either love your job or you love where you live.

I love where I live, and who I live with. My options when my partner went to law school and I got a [one year temporary] job an hour away were to live near my job and travel over the mountain to see my sweetie who lived near school, or live with him and deal with a thrice-weekly commute of 28 miles each way. The trip takes 40-60 minutes depending on the season - most days this week I've been trapped behind a lumbering leef peeping RV from the Midwest. That''s door to door, there's no parking hassles involved. I live in a lovely house and travel through some really lovely parts of Vermont. If I could take public transportation, I surely would, but we don't have the population density here to get anything more than a once-a-day train to New York. It's solidly okay, though it's my least favorite thing about the current situation. My goal is to live 10 miles or less from my job.

The problem with commuting is that it makes your "job time" start earlier and end later and if something goes weird or wrong, you're way far away from home. You also get home later in the day making evenings a lot more about dinner, chores and sleeping than having an actual part of the day available to get things done. This is more the case in the Winter when you'll be leaving the house in the dark and getting home in the dark. My biggest problem though is that I already spend a lot of time at my job sitting and the commute adds six hours of sitting to my week, which I don't like. This Summer my partner also had a job in town so we got to commute together and that was excellent, some talking time to hang out without being all uptight about doing chores and cooking. On the other hand, we live in the country, see the stars at night, have pleasant neighbors and a fun river walking distance from the house. If we were planning on having kids, living in the contry would be a no brainer, but as it stands, I figured my chances of seeing my law school b'friend were zero if we didn't live together, so this is an okay few year complromise.
posted by jessamyn at 6:34 AM on September 28, 2004

Like other posters, I had a 90 minute commute (north suburbs of Boston to southwest). It involved 20 minutes on the subway, 40 on the commuter rail, and then 30 minutes walking). I really got to enjoy the train time because it was designated time to set aside and take care of little things. This assured that I had some time to read, write letters, balance checkbooks, etc. I don't think I could handle the same trip in a car where all focus is on the road.

In exchange for the lengthy commute, I was living somewhere cheaper, more urban, and more fun.
posted by whatzit at 7:01 AM on September 28, 2004

I used to have a 45 minute drive in and a 1.5 hour drive home. Got laid off. Now I work for myself and walk down the hallway to the office or outside to the patio. 45 seconds or so depending on how many cats I have to either pat or kick on the way out.
posted by damnitkage at 7:18 AM on September 28, 2004

I've found commutes involving more than one form of transportation are much more stressful than those involving one. To commute an hour by train, e.g., would not be so bad. To commute an hour that requires, e.g., driving to the train, taking the train, then taking a bus would be a nightmare. I think the same would apply if you had to switch trains or buses.
posted by TimeFactor at 7:39 AM on September 28, 2004

i agree with andrew that long commutes are soul-destroying. more than ten minutes in traffic makes me into a terrible terrible horrible person. more than twenty minutes in the car (no traffic--which frankly, never happens) bores the piss out of me or otherwise agitates me.

so, for me, the soul-destroyingness of the commute is tied to the drivingness of the commute. i'm happy to put up with a longer commute if i'm either on the train or walking, but i'm not happy with a commute of more than 45 minutes because, as others have pointed out, it means there's nothing left of your day on either end of work.

right now, my commute is 10-30 minutes, pretty consistently, whether i take the bus, train or walk. if i take the commuter out to visit my parents in the burbs, it's not much longer (there's an express train) but i have much less leeway in terms of when i have to leave the office to get the express train, and that would be annoying on a regular basis. when an extra cup of coffee or two minutes spent looking for a missing shoe means an extra hour in the commute because you've missed the express train, the commute is very very ugly.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:43 AM on September 28, 2004

I like what andrew cooke says. In fact, my wife and I did just that--just last month, we bought a rather small house in the city, paying $350 a square foot, so I could walk to work and she could have an easy Metro ride. I have a solidly-predictable 30-minute walk through lovely neighborhoods, and when I get home, I'm relaxed and ready to go about my evening.

It is, truly, a lifestyle choice; we did sacrifice having the big yard and the rec room and the two-car garage, and, sadly, things like quiet, privacy, and the ability to see stars at night, so I know the choice isn't right for everyone. But our day-to-day lives are much better for it. The cost of the house is mitigated by the lack of commuting costs, and, of course, by the more intangible benefits of having an easier life.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:47 AM on September 28, 2004

iPod/Howard Stern/Audio Books work wonders for long commutes.

I do 40 minutes in the morning, 1 hr. 20 minutes in the afternoon (have to take a minor detour to pick up stuff for my part time as well.). Would never have been able to do it this long were it not for the iPod.
posted by lotsofno at 8:24 AM on September 28, 2004

In my opinion, life is just too short to spend 2 hours in the car everyday going to work. My commute is 5 minutes either by car or by bike.
posted by trbrts at 8:32 AM on September 28, 2004

I did a 30-60 minute commute every day for 3 years. The length of the commute fluctuated wildly based on traffic, which was one of the worst things about it. I couldn't ever really know when I'd get to work exactly, and realizing it was going to be a bad day always involved suddenly seeing a huge column of cars come into view before me. Ouch.

I listened to a lot of NPR. Listened to a lot of music. Got a headset for my phone and caught up with my friends and family more often. I became a ruthless driver, pushing my way around to get into the fastest lanes at the right times, etc. I shifted my work schedule a little later, more like 10-7ish. The temptation to stay until 8 was great some night, just because that was the only way I could *know* there'd be no traffic. And even then I was wrong sometimes. Working later didn't help that much, really. My evenings were pathetically short. Get home at 8. Deal with dinner, etc. Finally unwind around 9. Stay up until 1-2. Wake up the next morning feeling groggy.

It sucked. It's one of the main reasons I quit that job. I contract for them from home sometimes now. It's so much better. I get started earlier, I don't mind being available more or less around the clock. I eat better and save a good deal of money plus wear and tear on my car.

However, the only reason I did it in the first place was that I loved my job and the place I was living. I wasn't willing to give either one up. That pretty much carried me through for several years. Eventually, I decided I loved the place I lived more than the job. You may decide to job-hunt further out once you're there. It's always worth a shot. You have the Rest of Your Life to find something, right?

If 30 minutes is the limit of your drive one-way, I think you'll adjust. But bear in mind you're selling one hour out of your day from now on. If owning a house is really important to you, it'll be worth it. It's a high price to pay. But, to counter trbrts, life is too short to be a renter forever, unable to replace that old toilet or put a kitty door in somewhere. We all have our priorities.
posted by scarabic at 8:56 AM on September 28, 2004

I currently have a 30 minute commute into the city each day, although next month we're moving and that commute will be cut in half.

30 minutes extra a day may not sound like much, but life is too short to waste that much time.
posted by bshort at 8:56 AM on September 28, 2004

First you must answer this question: What will you be giving up by commuting an extra 2-1/2 hours per day.

Your proposed workday will be 12 hours long - including 3 hours of getting there and 9 hours of work. When you get home, will you have the energy to do things you care about, or will it be a frozen dinner and a flop on the bed?

My priorities changed 4 years ago when my first son was born. I got a job 10 minutes from home and cut my total commuting time by 1-1/2 hours, so that I could be there for him, my wife -- and myself. I never realized how much time and energy my old commute took until I gave it up.

Rather than only focusing on buying a house (not that there's anything wrong with that) I'd encourage you to look for ways to live simply that also feed your soul.
posted by grateful at 9:05 AM on September 28, 2004

Adampsyche, I'm considering taking that option too - 4 days a week, longer days, if I've got the stamina!

I also did this, and I'd say that it can work out well, as long as your life is arranged such that on those 4 days, the only thing you have to worry about is work. If you do your own laundry and cook your own meals, it gets to be a real drag. You won't eat well or sleep well, and you'll need the entire 3 day weekend to recover from the stress and fatigue (sometimes).

However, if you have a partner who can help you out on those days, you might be okay. If you're coming home to a clean house with soothing music on and dinner ready, you might survive. Or, alternately, if you have no partner to worry about, if you're a true bachelor, it's okay, too. You just come home and flop.
posted by scarabic at 9:05 AM on September 28, 2004

15 minutes by bike to a ~1 hour bus ride. Same in reverse with a 20 minute bike at the end.

I gripe sometimes about the 35 minutes on the bike which is odd considering I'm a cyclist. Riding a fixed route in work clothes (jeans, usually) just isn't the same as a 'regular' training ride.

Bus time is sweet. Reading, games on the cell phone, staring out the window. This morning I dreamed up a new comic and drew nine 4-panel strips.
posted by m@ at 9:35 AM on September 28, 2004

What MrMoonPie and grateful said.

We just decided to buy a centrally located townhouse instead of a house with a longer commute. We did have to sacrifice a few things we wanted, like a yard and more space - but we were able to find a compromise that works for both of us (a nice townhouse with big rooms and a big enough deck to entertain outside). I commute 20 mins to work and love it. I listen to my co-workers bitch every morning about their 1 - 1 1/2 hr commute (they both bought houses w/in the last year) and am very grateful I'm not in their situation.

If you have or are planning a family, I urge you to consider the amount of time you'll be spending away from them.
posted by widdershins at 9:43 AM on September 28, 2004

Long commutes are okay if you either love your job or you love where you live

It's true, I love where I work even though I have to work every other weekend, get up at the ungodly hour of 5.30 am when I'm on an early shift with an 8am start, and making it an 11 - 12 hour day by commuting.

I also love where I live, I'm in the 'burbs' but live next to a lake, 5 mins walk away from my parents who I want to live near as my dad has recently become disabled and I have friends who live a 20 min train journey in the opposite direction to where I work. I don't have kids that I have to dash home for either. My company also pays 75% of my rail fare and I pay nothing YES NOTHING for my London travel :D

So, looks like I'll be commuting for a couple more years at least until I get chucked outta my mate's house when he goes travelling around the world for a few years and he rents his house out. When that happens I'll move closer to work.
posted by floanna at 10:37 AM on September 28, 2004

I'm staunchly in the "commuting eats your soul" camp, or commuting by car anyway. The longest commute I had in my life was about 45 minutes in easy traffic and it drove me crazy. Most recently I had about 30 minutes in white-knuckle, high volume, idiot-laden, construction hell traffic and I swear having to do that every day nearly put me in the loony bin. I passionately hate to drive.

If I'm not driving, I can take a considerably longer commute. These days I'm on the train about 30 - 45 minutes each way (depending on how fast the Red Line is running that day) and I actually look forward to it. Mostly I read (for pleasure) but sometimes I just sit and stare out the window which is surprisingly relaxing.

I cannot foresee wanting a lifestyle that requires any kind of serious driving commute at any time in the future. Heck, more than half the reason we moved to Chicago was so that we could use public transportation and bike instead of drive.

And yards mean yard work and who the hell needs that? I can go on vacation to see the stars. It will make them that much more special.
posted by jennyb at 10:37 AM on September 28, 2004

daily commuting is soul destroying. Oh, so true!

For about a year and a half my husband was commuting five hours a day. Yes, really: five hours by car, train and ferry. He'd be home two hours in the evening and off to bed he'd go so he could do the whole thing again the next day. Lifestyle? What lifestyle?!

A month ago we moved closer to his work and it's now down to two hours per day by car. He gets to sleep in an hour every day and has four hours of free time each evening.

To be fair he was working 10 minutes away for $10 an hour. He got a new job (2 1/2 hours away) for much more money but it didn't make sense for us to move until certain things happened. Well, things finally worked out and we moved. In the short run it was worth it, but I don't know that he'd do it again.

Personally I've commuted an hour and a half each way (25 miles!). That was 10 years ago in Southern California (it's probably worse by now). I'll work in food service before I have to do that again. It's not worth my sanity.
posted by deborah at 10:53 AM on September 28, 2004

I live out in the country and drive 30 mins to work each day.

It's not so bad, I picked up an XM Radio for the car and I'm starting to enjoy it more.

I can say this: Driving from the country into the city is a lot more fun than driving from a city to another city. You can almost sleep while you drive on country highways. :-)

One thing you should get used to is either driving an econobox or being willing to spend $5 a day for the commute in gas.

The benefits of doing a commute from the country are:

- Almost no radar traps. If you're in a rush and need to do 100 mph, nobody cares (even the residents).
- You can usually figure about 5 different routes to work and if you are careful about which you take and when, you can shave another 10 minutes from your commute.
- Nobody is honking at you for the first 20 minutes of the drive. Actually, nobody is there to honk at you. :-D

The non-plusses:

- Mist and fog. If you come back home late at night you'll be driving dead slow through thick fog. Get used to it.
- Gas. You'll end up buying gas from about 1 or 2 gas stations since there's almost no other ones between you and work. Hopefully they'll be cheap.
- Time. It's 1/24 th of your life spent in the car. Get used to it. Upgrade the car stereo. Maybe get some books on tape. :-)
- Convenience. Don't *EVER* forget anything you need for work at home. If you do, you'll be kicking yourself for wasting ANOTHER hour.
- Being tied to a vehicle. Public trasit will be absolutely not an option.

A couple of times a week I sometimes have to drive about 6 hours picking up stuff for the business a day. That's not that bad either. Depends on if you enjoy driving or not, I guess. Do note that it's far more boring to drive a luxury car than to drive a shitbox. With the shitbox you get an adrenaline rush on every bump wondering of the car will fall apart or not. Helps keep you awake. :)

HTH.
posted by shepd at 11:28 AM on September 28, 2004

I've got a 20 minute drive - or- a 45 minute Bus trip each way from the 'country' to the 'city', problems are:

1. I live two country miles from the only bus nearby (which convienty stops in front of my office), Bus fare is US$30 per month.
2. Parking near my office varys from US$5 per day to US$15 depending on how long one wants to walk.
3. Roadside metered parking is US$5.00/2 hrs at a time (if a spot can be found) and
4. Parking tickets are US$40

That being said, I usually drive 2 miles to the bus, read for 45 minutes, get to work relaxed. I don't mind the drive but gas, maintenance and parking gets the price too high. Plus I enjoy the chance to read.
posted by DBAPaul at 11:59 AM on September 28, 2004

I live 18 km from work. It has been taking me at least 1 hr. and 10 minutes to travel one way, and sometimes it takes up to 2 hours. I just changed my office hours to be 7:30 - 4, so I now travel 55 minutes one way. You may want to consider altering your work hours slightly so as to avoid the rush hour traffic.

I use the time to knit or sew. Can't read since it makes me carsick. At least I get all my Christmas presents made, and things for me as well.
posted by orange swan at 1:02 PM on September 28, 2004

If I take public transit (Muni express bus downtown plus BART train plus short walk), it takes about an hour each way (with Muni you can easily wait for the bus longer than you're on it). The bus is usually pretty crowded and I often have to stand. I like the train, though. I veg on the bus and read on the train. Sometimes I work if I have my laptop with me.

(When I worked downtown, the exact same 15-20 mnuite bus trip was my entire commute, which was nice.)

If I drive, it's about 45 minutes in the mornings and at least an hour in the evenings, longer if there's a sporting event (Raiders or 49ers or A's or Giants), an accident, or the sun is setting. I usually listen to NPR or CDs.

What I don't like about the driving is the ridiculous rate of speed. It's only about 15 miles from home to work. I wouldn't mind a 45-minute drive if I were moving, but stop-and-go is a drag.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:28 PM on September 28, 2004

I used to commute 1.5 hours each way (going from Baltimore to Washington). The first 50 minutes was Amtrack, the rest was the Metro and walking. I enjoyed the train for about the first three months. Satisfaction severely declined after the honeymoon period, however. It's better than driving, but you're stuck to the train's schedule and if you're like 75% of most commuters, you'll nap instead of doing all of those productive things you can imagine doing before you become a commuter zombie. It is doable but I've never met anybody who could do it happily for the long term.

I did meet a few people who treated train time like work time and were able to convince their bosses to count the ride time toward their schedule -- if you're persuasive, you want to try that. Of course those were DC bureaucrats . . . probably not all that realistic in other settings.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 3:05 PM on September 28, 2004

I guess I'm in the lucky position of loving my job (I'm a PhD Ecology student) and loving where I'm going to live (3 bedroom house in a wine region, with a massive back yard, shed, garage, greenhouse and chicken coup) compared to my current tiny two-bedrrom apartment in a sea of traffic. If loving your job and house are necessary, then I think I can handle it. I don't really have the option of changing my job until I've completed my thesis, but there is another campus of the university closer to the house that I could head to to get work done some days, and within 9 months I'm going to start writing my thesis anyway, which is something I could probably do from home.
posted by Jimbob at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2004

I've found I can handle commuting for a job which doesn't demand a lot of on-demand interaction with people. This would include research and software development. This does not include teaching or account management.

Commuting really is a big time drain. I don't recommend it, but if everything else is right, and it's a choice between giving up one of those things or commuting, then it's an acceptable trade.
posted by weston at 9:45 PM on September 28, 2004

I commute about 50 minutes in the morning and an hour and 20 minutes in the afternoon to go about 25 miles. I do it because I'm saving up money to buy a house, and because my mom cooks a good dinner.

It's made worse by the fact that I work ten hours a day, which means I'm out the door by 5:45 and get home about 6:45 pm or so. But at least I get Fridays off and have a long weekend.

The morning drive is OK, and I listen to NPR for the information content in the morning. In the afternoon, I check the traffic to see whether the freeway will be tolerable or whether I should take surface streets. If your city has TrafficGauge, think about getting it. It looks like a really handy tool. I also use sigalert.com and Iteris. With that, I generally don't take the same route home twice in a given week. Depending on the gas prices, I'll even wake up 20 minutes early and take the bus in. For in-car entertainment, afternoon AM radio talk shows are also better than the morning zoos and I can actually finish a talk show instead of endlessly being teased about interviews I won't hear in the morning on commercial radio. And if I really am tired then I'll snooze a bit during my lunch time or after work on a tree-shaded street.

I thought I would move out much, much earlier and get sick of the commute. But you get used to it, although I liked it better when I started work an hour later because I could play with the radio in the evening and catch stations on the skip. (Then I would leave at 6:15 am and get back after 7:00 pm.) So it's what you make out of it.
posted by calwatch at 11:09 PM on September 28, 2004