How to keep a marriage from falling apart? Young child, demanding jobs and much more inside...

October 14, 2008 6:30 PM

Any advice for a rough patch in marriage?

My wife and I have been married for 4 1/2 years. We have a wonderful daughter that is 16 months old and up until about 3 months ago, we were really getting along and tackling both marriage and parenting together. This has changed. In the last 3 months, we seem to get in fights every other day. She says I am not a "partner" and that I don't do enough to help in general, around the house and with our child. Personally, I don't keep a list of all the stuff I do, but I do think I carry my weight and am not a hands off dad, nor do I neglect household duties (I make dinner 5 nights a week, clean the kitchen nightly, vacuum, take out the trash, etc). As a side note, everything seems to be hinged upon our inability to sell our house (yes, tough market) and our not being able to move closer to her family. We both work in very high-stress jobs and while she is the bread winner, I've closed the gap purposely to try to make her life easier ultimately. This has made things difficult considering my duties at work have tripled in the last year or so.

I love my daughter (and furthermore, my wife) very much and am afraid that the further my wife and I drift apart, the more likely we will get divorced. As the product of a divorced home, I do not want to do this to my daughter. The thought of not being there for her hurts me immensely and I've mentioned this to wife several times.

Furthermore, we have not been intimate in over 8 weeks. While I've mentioned this as a truthful frustration, it seems to have made my wife more mad as she sees me treating her as an object. I've tried to be more romantic. I've sent flowers to her hotel when she is on the road and I've tried to make myself more accustomed to her schedule if she's tired. I've tried a lot.

I'm just really confused as to how to get this back on track. When I try to talk to her, it always comes back to the "you're not a partner" sentiment and it is driving me crazy. Any advice for someone in a rough patch of marriage? Any ideas on how to become intimate again? I would really just like some words of encouragement if available, or interesting takes on this reality. Thanks.

posted by anonymous to human relations (30 comments total)

She says I am not a "partner" and that I don't do enough to help in general, around the house and with our child. Personally, I don't keep a list of all the stuff I do

Sit down with your wife and decide who will do what around the house. Perhaps you are doing less than you think you are, perhaps you do more than she realizes, but either way for the sake of peace it will be a good idea to put it down on paper and figure out what you will both consider fair and be happy with. Once this is resolved, you can then address the lack of, er, intimacy.
posted by orange swan at 6:48 PM on October 14, 2008

We both work in very high-stress jobs and while she is the bread winner, I've closed the gap purposely to try to make her life easier ultimately. This has made things difficult considering my duties at work have tripled in the last year or so.

What does this mean? If you also work, how is she the breadwinner?

She says I am not a "partner" and that I don't do enough to help in general, around the house and with our child. Personally, I don't keep a list of all the stuff I do, but I do think I carry my weight and am not a hands off dad, nor do I neglect household duties

Maybe you should keep a list. Write down what you do, and compare it to what she does. I'm not saying that you should use this as ammo, but it should be eye opening to one of you at least. When both parties think that they are doing the lion's share of work in the marriage, then one of them is wrong.

I really think that you guys should talk to a counselor. I can tell that there is so much going on that you haven't written about, and it seems that you both aren't speaking the same language anymore. Once communication has broken down that much, you really need a 3rd party to help mediate.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 6:56 PM on October 14, 2008

Ask her very sincerely, nicely, and with understanding that it can be difficult to articulate, to work out a plan with you that would be equitable in her eyes. There should be numbers, lists of chores, etc. in this plan - no matter how stupid it seems when you're working it out, do it. If possible, get someone to help watch your baby while you do this -- it's important that you both take it that seriously. And you should provide some small, special treat for her (dessert? foot rub? cashmere socks?) and something for you at the start of this session - something to make you both better disposed.

Good luck.
posted by amtho at 6:58 PM on October 14, 2008

We all go through these rough patches, either as the oppressed or the oppressor. As the opporessed, your best bet is to just knuckle under and not fight it. Your time may come on the opposite side of the coin. Do what she wants. Acknowledge your faith, love and support for her. Support. Support is the key, never kid yourself over this. You are her biggest supporter, you want her to be your biggest supporter. When your marriage goes this way it is like iron and can not be broken easily. You can not make her your supporter, but you can encourage it by being hers. That is the key to a strong and successful marriage. Many times when you are called upon to give this support you are not ready, your heart is not in it, etc. Remember, she is the most important thing in your life, ever. Support her more than you would your mom and then you two will be happy. She is not wrong, she is your love.
posted by caddis at 7:05 PM on October 14, 2008 [6 favorites]

A website like this (about Equally Shared Parenting) might be helpful... it does have some tools to determine how you're splitting the load and advice for dividing tasks more equally. Even if these specific things don't help, being willing to discuss something like this might help your wife to understand that you're willing to take steps to be a partner in the way that she wants.

Good luck!
posted by cider at 7:12 PM on October 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Have you asked her what you can do to become a "partner" in her eyes? If you have, have her answers been specific and concrete or more abstract ideas? If it's been abstract, ask her to be specific and detailed about changes she would like to see. I would start there and just listen. As much as you want to interrupt, correct any inaccuracies, and defend yourself, resist that urge and then let yourself sit with what she said for a couple of days. See if any of it makes sense. Then ask her to sit down and listen to your response and concerns. I'm not presuming your wife's perception is correct, but the only way to change that perception is to fully understand how she developed it. The only way for her to see your side, is to attempt to do the same.

I'd also suggest couples counseling. An impartial person to mediate could make a huge difference.

Good luck! It's obvious you love your family very much, and that always bodes well for the future.
posted by katemcd at 7:24 PM on October 14, 2008 [4 favorites]

As everyone has said, you two should sit down and work out this out. I suggested you take a long afternoon and create a project plan for the house - set goals, be realistic about your resources (your time), and budget out what needs to be done/can be done and who will do it. You both work. You have a small child. How much time does that leave for doing things about the house and yard and garage? Is that your "core business"? Where can you cut back? Would she agree to eat the same meal three days a week - cooking too much one day and eating microwave leftovers on other days saves time without sacrificing home-made quality. Really break down the chores room by room and talk about the cost of not doing them - a messy bathroom can get moldy/mildewy and damage the grout while piles of newspaper and toys in the den can just sit there until you pick 'em up. The won't smell, deteriorate, or damage anything.

Selling the house has got to be a huge stress - so if you can get counseling that would help. Is it unrealistic to get help while you're selling? In this market, a perfect bland landscape and a perfect tidy house could be worth the cost. What about drop off laundry?

And why are you selling? Is there something else going on that's adding to stress? And, not sure how to broach this with your wife, but at 16 months she may have some medical issues. Hormones can really do a number on you.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:45 PM on October 14, 2008

Talk to a lawyer doctor relationship therapist or couples counsellor.
posted by turgid dahlia at 8:13 PM on October 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

If a woman feels like she is doing the lion's share of work in the relationship and that her partner is not meeting her halfway, she's not going to feel like having sex with that partner. Don't look at sex as the problem you need to fix first -- fix the inequitable distribution of labor first (whether it's an actual problem or just her perception), and the sex will follow. But if you focus on the sex first and primarily, this is going to be a big turn off to your wife -- she will see that you are primarily trying to fix the situation that YOU think is a problem, and not the problem SHE cares about (which is leading to the sex problem). Flowers or "being romantic" with your wife are not going to help in the sex department if she is growing more estranged from you because she feels like she is working 18 hours a day when you are only working 14 (for example).

You talk about the work you do around the house. You don't talk about the work your wife does around the house. You also don't really talk about how the child care is divided. Is your wife watching your child while you are making dinner and cleaning up? It's possible that it might be more difficult or stressful to care for a 16 month old child than it is to make dinner. Once you finish with dinner etc., are there times when you are resting or surfing the internet or taking a break when your wife is caring for your child or taking care of house responsibilities? It may be that she feels that while you are helping somewhat you are either still getting more free time than she is or less serious responsibility than she is. Try to be careful to make sure that you are not letting her shoulder the majority of the responsibility for child care and decisions. This often happens unconsciously because she may have breastfed or stayed at home longer, etc.. Naomi Wolf writes about this in her book Misconceptions -- women go into marriage believing they have a partnership with their man, and then after they have a child some women find that their husband is not really taking equal responsibility for the child they feel betrayed, and like the promise of a true partnership was a chimera all along. I'd actually recommend that you read the chapter of Wolf's book called "Calling It Fair" and see if you recognize anything of your own situation in there.

You mention that you have taken on more responsibilities at work in order to make your salary more competitive with your wife's. Did you discuss this with her before you did it? Have you discussed this with her recently? It's possible that after the birth of your child it might actually be more helpful for your family situation to have more time to help out at home, rather than spending more hours at work. It's a difficult balance, I know. You might want to talk things over with her and see if she'd rather that you cut back your hours or responsibilities at work so that you could be more available at home, maybe until your child is older and enters school.

I guess my main point here is to try to put yourself in your wife's place and see things from her point of view rather than your own. Try to understand where she is coming from instead of defending your own position first and foremost. Your wife may be shouldering a lot more work and stress than you realize. Have a conversation with her where you ask her to talk about this, and just listen to her without getting defensive. If she feels like you are beginning to understand her feelings and are taking her worries seriously, she is going to feel better. And if you do really gain an understanding for why she is feeling this way, you will be able to help out more and/or help correct her perception so that she doesn't feel so alone, and gain back the partnership that you both felt you had earlier in your marriage.

Good luck!
posted by onlyconnect at 9:00 PM on October 14, 2008 [21 favorites]

3 months is not that long for a rough patch, especially when there is a lot of job/moving/financial stress. 8 weeks without sex is really not that long, especially for parents of young children (so I've heard). Look at the long-term. You committed to this woman by marrying her and then again by having a child. There's no need to even THINK about the D word unless it's been over a year of acrimony with no end in sight, or there's been physical abuse and/or cheating.

Speaking as a woman, the lack of sex is almost certainly due to your (perceived or real) lack of contribution to the household. Whether this is objective truth or not does not matter if you want to be intimate ever again. It has to be addressed, and I agree with other posters that putting it on paper in a non-antagonistic manner might help. Something like "Honey, I want to be a partner in this relationship and I want to know exactly what I need to do to make you feel that way. Let's sit down and make a list of everything that needs to be done around the household." Then volunteer for anything you can reasonably do. See if you can outsource the things that do not work for your schedule. If she's anything like me, EFFORT goes a lot farther than actually getting things done (although childcare can't be put off like laundry can).

I don't think romance and flowers is what she's looking for - that comes off as if you've watched too many movies and are simply following the script of what you think guys should do. Listen to her instead. I'm not saying do whatever she wants, but really listen to what she needs. It's probably not really about the housework. It could be insecurity that you're there for the long haul - and given that divorce even occurs to you, her fears might be founded in something.
posted by desjardins at 9:11 PM on October 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Your wife may be shouldering a lot more work and stress than you realize.

One really important thing I learned in my relationship was that people can have wildly different tolerance levels for stress and for different situations. Something that would leave me crying in bed wouldn't faze my partner, and vice versa. Just because you can handle X hours of work doesn't mean she can.
posted by desjardins at 9:15 PM on October 14, 2008

Is it possible your wife has postpartum depression? It can manifest in many ways. And keep in mind, having a kid is a *big* change for the two of you.
posted by Brittanie at 9:23 PM on October 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's not just housework that makes a marriage "even". Making the big decisions and doing the books is very taxing and it often falls to one person to be the grown up and do the lions share of this work and that person can come to resent it. Particularly when you are moving house. Someone has to deal with deciding where to live, looking at schools and new houses, dealing with the real estate agents, taxes, lawyers, moving services, etc. You don't mention any of that stuff in your post- are you leaving it up to her or are you doing at least half the research and making half the tough calls?

And yeah, trying to be romantic is probably only pissing her off at this point. She might see it as you trying to change her mind about the situation instead of working to improve the situation.
posted by fshgrl at 9:54 PM on October 14, 2008 [4 favorites]

Ask her if she has a problem making more money than you. Or see if you might have a problem with that. Seems like a subtext here.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:11 PM on October 14, 2008

I went through a rough patch myself a while back adjusting to higher stress and longer hours. I found myself using the words "partner" and "team" a lot to express what I needed and felt lacking. Caddis describes it well. Relationships can slip into a zero-sum mentality, with the focus on lightening ones load at the expense of the other, or finding an equitable division of labor (which amounts to the same thing). But if she is the principle breadwinner, what may be best for the team is for you to carry more than your weight.

The important thing is the mindset. Its not about what's fair, or who's doing more than the other thinks. It's about what you are each capable of, and what benefits the team more. She may need more leisure time than you to decompress and cope with her daily grind. Perhaps it is simply more important to your family's financial security that she be in top mental shape at work, even if your performance suffers. When you talk about this, don't try to persuade or negotiate but to understand and come to a consensus on what is best for the family.

Pat Riley uses the term "Innocence" to refer to this elusive quality that makes a team gel. In Pro Ball as in life, often what gets you recognition, money and fame is at odds with what the team needs you to do to succeed. Innocence is an alignment of one's goals with the team, and recognizing and trusting that in the long run the welfare of the team is more important than that of the individual. It is not naivete because you are aware that you are making a sacrifice and that you are deliberately making yourself vulnerable to exploitation of your trust. It is also tremendously fulfilling when you perceive your sacrifice bearing fruit. When it gets hard and you feel unappreciated, always keep in mind that the sacrifice is not to the other person but to the relationship and thus ultimately your own interests.
posted by Manjusri at 2:03 AM on October 15, 2008 [10 favorites]

Turgid Dahlia is right. Therapy is a wonderful thing, great for healthy couples to maintain a healthy relationship and for couples in crisis to get out of crisis. Just one hour a week, as tough as it may be to find that window, will most likely serve both of you tremendously. Often we just can't see the other person's perspective nor they ours. A therapist can often bring things into perspective and help set healthy goals for a relationship. Please note that going to a counselor is NOT a sign of weakness or desperation; it is in fact a sign of a healthy commitment to make things better.

Best of luck.
posted by cachondeo45 at 4:27 AM on October 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

The best advice I can give is to NOT have important discussions in the heat of an argument. Once someone is under the fire of emotion, they are going to have a very hard time being rational, and often, an even harder time accepting that you AREN'T under the fire of emotion and trying to be rational.

I'm not saying you're doing any of these things, but keep it in mind.

Talk to the wife, plan a date night that works for the both of you. (By date night, I don't mean sex night. Just private, intimate time together to talk, reconnect and strategize.) Tell her you will arrange the babysitter, the reservations, etc. And then just enjoy each other's company. Maybe do something that you both used to do back before kids and stress that you haven't done in a long time. And talk about your domestic partnership, your marriage goals, what you can do to be a better partner.

DO NOT use it to try to analyze your wife, or get to the root of her troubles. Make it about how you both can change your behaviors to better support and please each other.

Maybe even agree to do this once a week, or twice a month. A marriage needs to have some time set aside for the couple, not just the family bullshit.
posted by gjc at 5:12 AM on October 15, 2008

I've sent flowers to her hotel when she is on the road

Does she travel often for work? That would be super-extra-cherry-on-top stress for a lot of people. I'm sure the flowers are nice, but when she comes home, I hope she doesn't feel like she has to catch up on all the housework and childcare she missed while she was away. (As in "Thank goodness you're home, the baby has been puking for two days straight and the washing machine is broken and the realtor wants to show the house tonight!") If she's on travel for work, that's her contribution to the family during that time.
posted by shiny blue object at 5:25 AM on October 15, 2008

It seems clear that you don't really understand what's bothering her. You're unnerved by the fighting and by your own anxieties about divorce, your frustration over sex, and you reassure yourself by clinging to your current framework for understanding of things, even though you know that you don't really understand. You keep going back to what you think you know, i.e. that you do a lot of the work, that you've been romantic, etc. and your unwillingness to question those convictions leaves no room for you to hear what's really bothering her. You need to set aside all this stuff you think you know, and act as if you believe your wife has valid and important concerns even if you don't understand what they are, even if she hasn't expressed them clearly.

When she's got something to say to you, listen to her. Reflect whatever she's said back to her and ask if you got it right. If you did get it right, ask her if she'd like to say anything else about whatever it is she's telling you. You don't have to agree with her, you just have to understand where she's coming from. When the picture she's painting comes into focus for you and you've demonstrated that you hear her by accurately reflecting her concerns back to her, she may relax a little because she's gotten whatever she needed to say off of her chest. Tell her, explicitly, that you understand, that you see what she's talking about, that it makes sense. Then, try and empathize with her. Talk about how you think it would feel to be in her shoes, and ask if you're right, if she really does feel that way, if you've missed any important facets of the situation or her feelings about it.

Listening this way is hard. You'll have to keep your own anxieties in check. You'll be terribly tempted to jump in and indicate your disagreement, point out that she does the same nasty stuff to you that you do to her, defend and counterattack. DON'T. Keep your eyes on the goal of understanding what she's trying to say to you. Until you do understand, until what she's saying makes sense to you, you have no business agreeing or disagreeing with anything.
posted by jon1270 at 5:51 AM on October 15, 2008 [9 favorites]

Most of the answers here seem to be centered on what needs doing around the house (cooking, cleaning, etc.) I'm going to suggest that probably the biggest elephant in the room in your marriage is the responsibilities around the kid. onlyconnect touches on this issue, and it has elements of the "metaresponsibilities" that fshgirl writes about.

Whose responsibility is it to make decisions about childcare? Who rearranges the childcare schedule when one or the other of you works out of town? Who keeps track of when well-child visits to the pediatrician need to happen, or the vaccination schedule? What size clothes does your daughter wear? Shoes? Does she have a suitable winter coat, and when is she likely to outgrow it, and will there be winter coats in the stores when she does? (Major retailers start stocking spring clothing well in advance of nice spring weather, you know.) Is the baby generally on schedule for developmental milestones? Who gets up with her in the middle of the night? How many diapers do you have on hand in the house right now? Could you get up from your computer and lay your hands on your child's "lovey" in 15 seconds or less? Who are the baby's best friends at day care? Your kid has probably just started really pushing the limits of your childproofing--what are the weak spots in your childproofing strategy, and what have you been doing about it?

Etcetera. There are a million and one tracks of responsibility that go along with having a child, above and beyond changing the diaper at hand, that women generally end up managing. I'm glad you're making dinner and taking out the trash--that is definitely good--but if you aren't picking up any of the slack on the stuff from the previous paragraph or recognizing that your wife is doing it then yes, you really ARE NOT being a "partner".
posted by Sublimity at 7:38 AM on October 15, 2008 [8 favorites]

Rereading the OP again, the part about the urgent need to move closer to her family reinforces my take on the situation--she needs to have some more people in the network to offload some of the childcare responsibilities because it's too much for the two of you (or the one of her).
posted by Sublimity at 7:42 AM on October 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I completely agree with jon1270 and Sublimity. And just to add one more point, your wife will not see your help as a partnership if you are basically waiting for her to tell you what to do or what she needs help with. If she is figuring out most of the childcare responsibilities on her own, it's another job to then have to explain everything to you -- it takes up more of her time. You need to be in there with her in the trenches figuring out both what needs to be done and how to do it, and not simply taking her instructions. If you're waiting for her instructions, that's part of the reason why she feels it's not a partnership.
posted by onlyconnect at 8:15 AM on October 15, 2008 [3 favorites]

Maybe you need some time to reconnect. Try to get away for a long weekend and make date nights a priority to get the magic back into your relationship. It's really important to still express the deep and unconditional love that brought you together. In this world the people who love us in that way are relatively few, and we really need to bask in their love sometimes. Work, kids, money... they can interfere with that at times. Once you are both feeling safe and loved communication will be easier and you can work out the little annoyances you're experiencing.
posted by MiffyCLB at 9:14 AM on October 15, 2008

When you look for a counselor, see if you can't find one comfortable talking about money issues. It's bizarre how many aren't- so many will tell you that money's not the real issue and so you can talk around it. I suspect Sublimity and jon1270 may have the answer. But on the slight chance that your wife isn't as comfortable being the breadwinner as she feels she ought to be. That disconnect has caused some problems for some of my clients in the past, though once it was out in the open it solved itself to a great extent. This may not apply to your situation at all but as a financial planner I've just seen it enough to know that counselors need to be sensitive to the role money plays in and of itself, and to know that many many of them are not.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:55 AM on October 15, 2008

Why Marriages Succeed and Fail--and How You Can Make Yours Last

This is a really great research-based, readable, and practical book.

One interesting point he makes is that research shows that when men think they're doing about half of the work, they're not.

When men think they're doing most of the work, they're usually doing about half of the work.

Something to think about.
posted by sondrialiac at 10:45 AM on October 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

find a babysitter you trust and spend some time just talking with your wife without the baby every week.
posted by geos at 1:33 PM on October 15, 2008

The important thing is the mindset. Its not about what's fair, or who's doing more than the other thinks. It's about what you are each capable of, and what benefits the team more. She may need more leisure time than you to decompress and cope with her daily grind. Perhaps it is simply more important to your family's financial security that she be in top mental shape at work, even if your performance suffers.

I just wanted to say that I don't exactly agree with this. Just because someone is the breadwinner doesn't mean they should get to sit around after they get home from work while the other person slaves away all evening. This sounds suspiciously like what things were like for women in the 30s and 40s, except in this particular situation reversed. I don't think that just because a woman earns more money than a man she should by that fact alone need to deal with a much smaller portion of the home responsibilities. Maybe if there were some additional facts -- like she worked significantly longer hours and had less free time than her partner because of her work schedule -- should also mean a reduced house/child work schedule. I just worry that the above model tends to reward the main earner and let them off the hook for all housework/childcare in the way that our parents and grandparents took for granted, while putting the housework and childcare work in a sort of "second class" status -- in a way that I thought modern, more equal models of parenting were trying to leave behind. I'm not arguing that things need to be precisely equal, but I'm not sure it's a move forward to pile one parent with most of the childcare and housework responsibilities simply because they earn less money or have a slightly less stressful job; I think this tends to minimize the importance and difficulty and sublimation of self that day-in-day-out childcare entails.

Although it's difficult to tell from the question, my take was that the wife in this relationship is not asking to do less than her husband because of her job. Her complaint is that she doesn't feel like he is her partner, which suggests to me that she believes she is doing more than half of the home duties. I think lots of women in households where both spouses work would be happy if their spouse really actively did half of the work related to the house and the child. That's all I think this woman is asking for.

I also just wanted to say to the original poster that it is lovely of you to post this question, and to think about these issues now before the situation has gotten out of hand and there is plenty of time to repair things. I think it's clear from your question that you really love your wife and your daughter, and that you really want to make things better. I sincerely wish you good luck.
posted by onlyconnect at 9:12 PM on October 15, 2008

And just to add one more point, your wife will not see your help as a partnership if you are basically waiting for her to tell you what to do or what she needs help with. If she is figuring out most of the childcare responsibilities on her own, it's another job to then have to explain everything to you
!
If she's ever used the phrase "I am not your mother!" and she's anything like me, this is exactly what's going through her head!

Good luck, you do sound like a wonderful husband in many ways (making dinner AND doing the dishes?) I hope this thread helped.
posted by fshgrl at 9:19 PM on October 15, 2008

If you want to think about the work of a household, a great book to read is called Second Shift. It examines how 6(?) couples distribute the work in their household. It talked about how an unequal distribution can be a real sex-drive-killer.

One learning point for me (this may be obvious to you) was that there's both the Doing of Stuff and the Remembering What Stuff Needs To Get Done. Both are very important, but it's easy to forget how much of a weight it is just to keep track of everything that needs done ("little Suzy needs her permission slip signed"). Maybe that's what your wife means? You feel like you're being supportive by doing things, but maybe she feels the lonely weight of being the only one who is listing off of all the stuff that has to happen? (There's nothing in your post that makes me think this; it's just something for you to eliminate in your troubleshooting.) For example, you cook, so when food starts to run out, is it also your job to notice, make the shopping list, and go to the store? If the food in the cupboard ran out, who would feel like they messed up?

I'd sit down and ask her what it really means to her for you to be a "partner." I wouldn't organize it around a list of chores right at the start. She might mean she wants help with the step-by-step or daily chores, but she might also mean she wants help with visioning, long-range planning, decision-making, and so forth. Good luck.
posted by salvia at 10:39 PM on October 15, 2008

John Gottman also published a book in 2007 And baby makes three: six step plan for preserving martial itimacy and rekindling roman after baby arrives.

You know, you are not alone in this problem. I hear this complaint from most of the working mothers I know, that they do not have a partner and their husband just doesn't understand all the extra work the women are doing on top of their paid work. The advice from the other people in this thread, especially onlyconnect, salvia and Sublimity resonated with me, a breadwinning mother, especially onlyconnect's comments about sex. Seiously, onlyconnect, are you in my head?
posted by saucysault at 11:58 AM on October 16, 2008