No, it really is just a plant.

October 10, 2008 9:17 AM

I'm an American living in Canada. I'd like to buy a plant from a store in Canada that is legal in Canada but not in the US. Will I get in trouble?

It's illegal in the US because it could be considered an entheogen, although I don't have any interest in using it as one. I have no intention of taking it across the border. Ordinarily I would go physically to a shop and buy with cash, but for this it isn't really an option; I have to use a credit card or Interac and therefore create some sort of a paper trail.

So I guess my question is: is there any sort of "information sharing" that goes on with Canadian credit card agencies or banks to government agencies in the US? Am I liable to be subject to extra scrutiny at the border or other trouble because of this?

posted by anonymous to home & garden (16 comments total)

If it's "illegal in the US", surely that means it's illegal to purchase or own one while in the US, regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen; rather than being illegal for a US citizen to purchase or own one, regardless of whether or not you are in the US.
posted by attercoppe at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

It seems unlikely. First your credit card reciept would have to say "peyote" or whatever rather than "4 inch potted plant". Second the store (assuming it isn't named something like Illegal Entheogen'R'Us) would have to be submitting detailed transaction records to the CC company instead of just account, date, amount and verification. Third the CC company would have to relay this to American enforcement (which is possible I guess but I haven't heard of it). Then they'd actually have to take action in a pretty obscure edge case.

To be safe you could use a preloaded/gift CC paid for with cash and have the plant sent to work if purchasing online.
posted by Mitheral at 9:28 AM on October 10, 2008

You have to research the particular good. The vast majority of the time it is not a problem were you to buy the product legally where you are and consume/use/keep it there. There are some exceptions, though, like Cuban cigars.

You are also interested in collateral consequences, such as scrutiny at the border; I doubt it, but it will probably be impossible for you to exclude. You will also want to consider whether it affects your ability to answer honestly questions on future employment and security applications regarding your purchase of this type of good.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:32 AM on October 10, 2008

i don't get it. if you are living in canada, and this plant is legal in canada…what's the issue?
posted by violetk at 9:41 AM on October 10, 2008

I think some people think that being American means American laws apply to you no matter where you are, which is a little frightening.

In essence, if it's legal where you want to do it, it's legal for you to do there. Mitherals's response is deceptive and paranoid . . . if heroin were legal in Canada, the American authorities couldn't do squat if you bought some, even if they knew (unless you brought it into their jurisdiction.)
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:47 AM on October 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think some people think that being American means American laws apply to you no matter where you are, which is a little frightening.

There are things that it is illegal for American citizens to do no matter where they are in the world. Two that I can think of are: 1) hide income from the IRS, and 2) travel to Cuba.
posted by zippy at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think some people think that being American means American laws apply to you no matter where you are, which is a little frightening.

This isn't unreasonable, since some U.S. laws apply to all U.S. nationals (and sometimes even non-national permanent residents) no matter where they are. For example: the requirement to file tax returns and the travel embargo against Cuba. Other countries are passing laws prohibiting their nationals from committing sexual abuse overseas. As far as I know, purchasing substances that are controlled in the U.S. is not one of these laws.

I doubt there is a way for the U.S. government to routinely get the information today, but who knows what will happen in the future. A few years ago, I probably would have thought it was paranoid to think that the NSA was eavesdropping on random domestic telephone conversations.
posted by grouse at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2008

Nah -- you're fine. For example -- Americans can freely purchase and smoke Cuban cigars while on cruise ships. (If you can't purchase on the ship directly, you definitely can in the ports of call -- and they specifically tell you to smoke them on the ship before you debark.) If that's okay, why on earth would it be illegal to purchase and use a plant allowed in the country you're currently living in?
Then again, common sense doesn't always apply to American laws, but...
posted by cgg at 10:08 AM on October 10, 2008

This isn't unreasonable, since some U.S. laws apply to all U.S. nationals (and sometimes even non-national permanent residents) no matter where they are.

The Helms-Burton act prohibits trade with Cuba, even for non-US citizens and companies. Seems to me a little bit like King Canute commanding the tides, but I'm JAFE (Just An Engineer).

It's hard to believe anyone could take it seriously, or could take Americans seriously anymore, but there you have it.
posted by vilcxjo_BLANKA at 10:11 AM on October 10, 2008

I think some people think that being American means American laws apply to you no matter where you are, which is a little frightening.

In essence, if it's legal where you want to do it, it's legal for you to do there. Mitherals's response is deceptive and paranoid . . .

If by "in essence" you mean "but for exceptions I am refusing to address," you are correct. You would also be correct that the chances of being prosecuted are very, very low, and I think that may be the most important point. But the proposition you're resisting isn't that "being American means American laws apply to you no matter where you are"; it is that some laws apply, explicitly, on the basis of American nationality, regardless of where you are. That is not a uniquely American position. It is, in any event, correct, as you are not. I'm sorry to be harsh, but I would be more certain of the facts before calling someone else deceptive and paranoid.

Nah -- you're fine. For example -- Americans can freely purchase and smoke Cuban cigars while on cruise ships. (If you can't purchase on the ship directly, you definitely can in the ports of call -- and they specifically tell you to smoke them on the ship before you debark.) If that's okay, why on earth would it be illegal to purchase and use a plant allowed in the country you're currently living in?

Your predicate is wrong. (This is more accurate, surprisingly enough.) That does not mean, I stress, that the OP's purchase is treated the same as cigars. In fact, I would be surprised if it were. Laws vary in this regard, and they are hard to generalize about.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 11:02 AM on October 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

some laws apply, explicitly, on the basis of American nationality, regardless of where you are

Or even if you just have a green card.
posted by grouse at 11:08 AM on October 10, 2008

So you're asking whether:

(1) The US government is keeping tabs on all your electronic purchases. But this doesn't tell them what you bought, only that you spent CAD52 at Blah's Nursery or Home Depot or whatever. So, you're asking whether they also:

(2) Any time their electronic surveillance of you reveals a potentially illegal-in-the-US purchase, they send agents to the relevant store. Agents who lack any legal authority to do anything, and to whom the shopkeeper is entirely free to say "Fuck off, yanks." So, agents who bully the shopkeeper into telling them what you bought. Every time you buy anything at any store that sells plants. Or, they have agents hack into the store's inventory system to try to discern what you bought. Or, they talk to crown prosecutors in Canada who then subpoena the relevant records... every time you buy anything in any store that sometimes sells plants.

No, they don't do that. Not unless you are already the ongoing target of federal and international investigation, at any rate.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:26 AM on October 10, 2008

Or, to put it all differently, "Does the US government spend thousands of dollars to see what's up every time I buy anything at any store that sometimes sells plants?"

No, it doesn't.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:27 AM on October 10, 2008

In essence, if it's legal where you want to do it, it's legal for you to do there.

Right. This is why kids cross borders to get to places where the drinking age is lower. When it comes to this kind of thing, what happens in Canada stays in Canada.
posted by orange swan at 11:48 AM on October 10, 2008

America and Canada have cooperated on drug related issues where the action in Canada was legal, but the recipient was American. There is an, I believe ongoing, case with a company that sold viable hemp seeds in Canada, which people then brought home to the US. As I recall the mounties quite happily seized all the business assets and records of the Canadian, so that the DEA could go after the clients. They also allowed their own citizen to be extradited to the US to face life in prison for his actions.

The danger is far from academic, both for you and for the person who sells to you.
posted by nomisxid at 12:05 PM on October 10, 2008

Dee Xtrovert writes "In essence, if it's legal where you want to do it, it's legal for you to do there. Mitherals's response is deceptive and paranoid . . . if heroin were legal in Canada, the American authorities couldn't do squat if you bought some, even if they knew (unless you brought it into their jurisdiction.)"

If it wasn't clear I don't think anonymous has anything to worry about because currently there is no way for US goverment agencies to know of his purchase unless he is already a person of interest. My extra security suggestion is just that, extra security.

However " the American authorities couldn't do squat if you bought some, even if they knew" is false. Anonymous asks "Am I liable to be subject to extra scrutiny at the border or other trouble because of this?". Most obviously if the US goverment knew they could add the poster to the Do Not Fly list. After all no one knows how people get on the list. It is entirely possible, likely even, that purchases of specific materials will get one on the list.
posted by Mitheral at 1:25 PM on October 10, 2008