What do you do when you know you're #2 ?

October 7, 2008 5:52 PM

I was just offered a job I was turned down for last month. How do I best handle the conversation?

I've been job-hunting in a tight market and the most promising interview I've recently had resulted in an email along the lines of "your skill set is impressive but does not match our needs closely enough." I was disappointed because I thought the director and I had a good conversation and that my background met and even exceeded their needs. I didn't follow up to find out why I wasn't chosen.

Now it's a month later and I've just listened to a voicemail asking me to come in for a conversation because their first pick bailed "due to unforeseen circumstances" and as their number 2 pick, they want to see if I'm still interested. I've never been in this position before. What I want to know is:

1. Is it standard to ask just what those unforeseen circumstances were that took out pick #1?
2. How should this affect salary negotiations if I decide to take the job, or should it? (Again, this is a NPO -- I've never worked for one and I'm not even sure how to negotiate in this instance.)
3. Does being the #2 choice generally poison the well as far as relationship, progress, etc? This is a tiny office, and I'd be working closely with this person, so we'll need to have a very solid working relationship.

I'm especially eager to hear from people who have been in this position before or who have a lot of professional NPO or HR/hiring experience. Thanks for your help.

posted by anonymous to work & money (19 comments total)

No, don't ask what the other guy's "unforeseen circumstances" were. They're not relevant to the job and none of your business (i.e., could be due to illness, divorce, etc).

I don't think it should affect salary negotiations on your end. They may be willing to pay you less than they were willing to pay your first choice, but your job is to maximize your salary in any event (without being unrealistic/obnoxious!)

Being #2 will only "poison the well" if you let it. They want you for the job; that's the important point. But given that they initially said there was a mismatch in your skills, you may want to be especially attentive when you first start to making sure that you get any additional training you might need, clarify your job duties, etc.
posted by footnote at 6:04 PM on October 7, 2008

1. Is it standard to ask just what those unforeseen circumstances were that took out pick #1?

It isn't relevant. The position is open.

2. How should this affect salary negotiations if I decide to take the job, or should it? (Again, this is a NPO -- I've never worked for one and I'm not even sure how to negotiate in this instance.)

Many employers would not have actually treated you as a viable pick and not contacted you. You are still looking for a job. Why would you return their decision to offer you a new opportunity by playing hardball? People get rejected for jobs all the time - it generally doesn't reflect on the character of the employer or employee. Tl;Dr: It shouldn't.

3. Does being the #2 choice generally poison the well as far as relationship, progress, etc?

Only if you let it.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:05 PM on October 7, 2008

1: I really don't see how that is any of your business - it may be a personal reason relating solely to the new potential employee. It could be any number of things directly relating to that candidate.
2: Why should it? So you can recoup your loss on feeling rejected?
3: Not at all. You may have been 'equal first with tiny, inconsequential reason (like shorter commute for them) to be offered it second'. Why should you care if the other person had the first shot? Maybe they would have, with more budget, have happily employed you anyway to fill two positions. There's too much to go on to assume 'poisoning of relationships'. What if the other person was just better than you or had more experience? That doesn't mean they think they are now 'stuck with the crap option', as they'd just advertise again.

The fact you were initially rejected is entirely irrelevant, and if you obsess about it too much, you'll potentially come across badly. Ignore that element - It is possible this happened at every job you have taken, but the no 1 choice bailed before they rejected you. In short - it should make precisely zero difference to you.

Start over. You have been offered a job. View it as a clean slate and negotiate according to your market value - it's up to them (IMHO) to ask you to consider taking anything less than market rate just because you are working for a NPO unless you have already factored that into your sums out of sympathy with the cause. But NPO does not necessarily mean 'working for less money'. It just means the profits get plowed straight back in to produce a net zero.
posted by Brockles at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2008

This happened to me. I got a "no thanks" and then a month later a "actually, yes". I negotiated hard on salary and talked them up a fair amount. I treated it the same as if I had been offered the job right away and I think it turned out pretty well. I still wanted the job though - do you still want this job? if so treat it like you do and go for it!
posted by GuyZero at 6:44 PM on October 7, 2008

Having been in a hiring meeting or two, I can say that the margin between #1 and #2 is often pretty slim. Sometimes it's so slim that #2 is my subjective first choice despite #1 having some small but objective advantage.

I'd say the answers are:
1) I wouldn't ask. I'd be willing to bet it's either A) dull, or B) painfully dull, or C) they discovered some serious issues with him or his resume (Hey, there's no Whatsamatta University in Frostbite Falls!)

2) You have a wage you're willing to work for, they have one they're willing to pay you. It could be that the unforeseen was his ridiculous salary expectations and he's actually forced them to loosen up the purse a bit.

3) Chances are they won't be able to tell you what #1's name was in a week or two (unless, of course, the unforeseen circumstances required police intervention). So, I'd say not at all.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:45 PM on October 7, 2008

You were #2, but now you're #1.

I might tactfully probe the reasons they gave for not hiring you in the first place, if they were, in fact, real reasons. If they were nebulous -- and, "your skill set is impressive but does not match our needs closely enough" sounds pretty nebulous to me -- I'd just chalk that up to a workplace analog to, "you're a great guy, but let's just be friends." I guess I'm echoing footnote's advice that "you may want to be especially attentive when you first start to making sure that you get any additional training you might need, clarify your job duties, etc."
posted by GPF at 6:53 PM on October 7, 2008

I've been on the other side (the employer & NPO) of this situation a few times. What has happened in every case is that the #1 choice has accepted the position, and then a) been offered another position with another organization with better salary/benefits/etc (not surprising given that they are job seeking and have obviously been putting their resume out all over the place, but still very frustrating) or b) personal reasons have come up suddenly - illness in the family or something similar. I think you are within your rights to make sure it wasn't something about the job itself that made them leave, but I would leave the questions at that.

You still have the right to negotiate your salary, benefits, etc. as you see fit, but I wouldn't attempt to act punitively. Listen to their offer, ask your questions, make a counter, see where it goes. NPOs often have very tight budgets, and the salary for your position may be a line item inside a grant, so they may not have any negotiation room on salary, but vacation time or other factors could be in play.

Being the second choice does not affect your possibilities and relations unless you make an issue of it. In all the cases where this has been successful for me, the person who was #2 never brings it up again after the first conversation where the situation is explained. You have a job offer; let go of everything else. Find out what skills they need/want you to develop - but you'd do that anyways at any other job, right?
posted by never used baby shoes at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2008

1) Who cares?
2) Might not hurt to tell them that you're entertaining another offer (doesn't matter if its true) and see if they can be a bit more competitive on price.
3) Again who cares, its not the High School prom, if its a good job you still beat out lots of other people and the guy who was #1 so you get the last laugh.

Once you start working there all this will be ancient history after the first 2 months anyway.
posted by Scientifik at 7:03 PM on October 7, 2008

Being the second choice for a position, and then becoming the first choice can be a good thing. It happened to me...

Called after the interview; "Sorry we've selected someone else, but you were second in our selection process." Oh well, not a big deal. Ten days later, I was called and asked if I was still interested. I took the gig and so far everything has turned out OK.

Another position at my company opened this spring and the number one choice got cold feet and backed out, the job went to the number two choice and that person is doing a great job.

Never Used Baby Shoes has it right, "You have a job offer; let go of everything else."
posted by bach at 7:08 PM on October 7, 2008

1. Nonya
2. Go for the deal you were originally after.
3. If the first person had turned the job down quickly you would have never even got the second place letter, just the one saying "We would like to offer blah blah". That happens more often than you'd think. The extended timespan makes no difference.
posted by mandal at 7:30 PM on October 7, 2008

It's probably not the first time you've been hired when you weren't the first choice. The others just got turned down by their first choice before they sent out the letter turning you down.

I might have a conversation with them about, "You said my skill set did not meet your needs. What are the gaps that you see and what can we do about them?" but other than that, there's no problem here.
posted by winston at 7:40 PM on October 7, 2008

You really have no idea what happened. In my experience as a hiring manager, all of these have happened midway in the recruiting cycle:
- Temporary hiring freeze
- Project budget slashed
- Another employee resigned leaving an extra position to fill
- Candidate #1 failed background or drug test.

The list goes on forever and you're wasting energy trying to figure out exactly what path led them to make you an offer.

You got the job you wanted. Now negotiate a fair salary and benefit package.
posted by 26.2 at 7:52 PM on October 7, 2008

Listen to never used baby shoes.

I'll nth what he said re: salary. Its an NPO and its October (ie: late in the budget year in a year where many NPOs haven't gotten the funding they were hoping for, or anticipate budget shortfalls as the donor pool dries up). I doubt there will be much, if any, wiggle room in their salary offer. Can't hurt to ask, but don't be offended if they don't say yes.
posted by anastasiav at 8:16 PM on October 7, 2008

Assume that you and #1 were equally good, but #1 got picked because of a coin toss, or height, or knowing someone, or because he seemed to "need" it more. Assume that there were some people who would have preferred you to be chosen, but maybe they (rightly or wrongly) didn't have the political clout - even though they may have a clearer concept of you and the position. Assume that, whatever skills and traits you and #1 start out with, everyone knows that it's impossible to truly predict what will happen and how either of you will grow into the job. You get a chance to discover it, though.
posted by amtho at 8:43 PM on October 7, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Having been in a position to be a part of the applicant review process at an NPO, I can give you the following advice:

#0: The letters you received are likely stock, everyone-gets-this letters. Don't read to much into them, they simply mean you weren't the top pick at the time.

#1: No, it's not standard. It's not your business and should have no bearing on your decision. Its more common than you might think to have a first choice back out... for all kinds of various reasons.

#2: Depends on the NPO. Some have fixed budgets as someone else mentioned... others are more flexible.

#2 and 3: The fact that there's a tight job market in your field may help you answer both. A tight job market means there were a lot of applicants. The more applicants they had, the more likely they won't be willing to negotiate too much on salary, and the prouder you should be for being second in line. 'Tight job markets' are not the place to play hard-to-get.

Nthing the previous "it'll only affect your relationship if you let it" comments.

Are you in a personal relationship? If so, let's safely assume that your SO is not the only person you've ever had a relationship with. Do you think your relationship is 'poisoned' because they weren't your 'first choice'? Or you theirs? Should it be?

Accept the job. In your first one-on-one chat with your new boss, find out what areas prevented you from being #1, and work towards exceeding the previous #1. Once you do that, you have experience and leverage to negotiate salary.
posted by SquidLips at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2008

Don't let your ego get in the way, here.

You just got offered a job. Who cares if there was one person before you, or sixty-seven? It's the same job, and you're the same you.

Don't screw yourself over with the unrelated issues.
posted by rokusan at 10:20 PM on October 7, 2008

I was #2 choice once, as #1 decided to go hiking in the Himalayas instead. Agency insisted to try for higher salary because of that (which wasn't well received). Otherwise, it makes no difference at all that you are #2 choice.
posted by lundman at 1:01 AM on October 8, 2008

I was a #2 for a temp job and eventually they hired me permanently. Booyah!

I later got to participate in the interview process for temp jobs, so now I pretty much know how it happened: my boss generally thought all candidates were pretty equal and would have been happy with almost all of them, but having to pick a #1 ended up being based on small things like someone having more knowledge of a particular job quirk than anyone else (as I recall, that was a pretty freak thing that she knew that), or if someone had a vacation scheduled already that was going to be during our busiest time of the year and the other candidate did not and that was the only difference between them.

Don't be offended at all. Treat it like any other job where you were #1. They probably didn't like the other guy all that much more than you, and if they didn't like you, they would have just re-opened the interview process and looked for other fresh meat.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2008

This happened to me, with a NPO to boot.

#1 - Don't ask. Your new cow orkers (should you take the job) will fill you in soon enough. In my case Guy #1 simply flaked out on the 1st day & never showed up, which I found out within about 2 hours of my 1st day of work.

#2 - I suspect that I got the #2 position because I had been hardballing a bit on the pay issue, but they were happy to give me the higher rate I had been asking for once they decided to hire me.

#3 - Like a lot of other folks have said, it's only a problem if you let it be. I did feel a little weird about it at first, but I got over myself & quickly fit right in with the office culture.

If you still want the job, go for it! Good luck!
posted by ekstasis23 at 11:45 AM on October 8, 2008