Comments on: Doesn't Know From

Question: Doesn't Know From

MiguelCardoso — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:29:46 -0800

Where does the American construction doesn't know from come from? How is it used? [More Inside.]

I've heard this for years and I guess it must mean "doesn't know anything about X" but I'd love to know how the from got there and what the colloquial/conversational usage rules are. One more obvious instance I've heard is Doesn't know from shit", which is general, but more commonly it refers to a specific field, recently including "He doesn't know from corn repeal laws" (whatever those are) on a rerun of an old West Wing episode.
Instinctively - i.e. ignorantly, on a hunch - I guess it means something like "Whatever he says about [the corn repeal laws] doesn't come from any knowledge of the [corn repeal laws]".

I've looked up my dictionaries and googled to no avail but, although I sense there's an explanation out there, I don't, er, know from search terms. (Would that be correct or, as I feel, not?)

By: i_cola

i_cola — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:45:11 -0800

I'd guess (or maybe I guess) that the reduction has gone from:
He doesn't/don't know the difference between sugar and shit.
He doesn't/don't know sugar from shit.
He doesn't/don't know from shit; or He don't know shit.

I'll also guess that regional variations abound..

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:46:47 -0800

If I were forced to come up with a solution, being Portuguese, I'd say Americans were simply being more ambiguously but veritably Latin than the English, since de means simultaneously of, about and from, although the sense is given by the context.

1)Principio de Matemática ("A principle of Mathematics)

2)Da [contraction of de and a] Matemática ("About Mathematics")

3) Este princípio vem da Matemática("This principle comes from Mathematics.")

By: taz

taz — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:24:21 -0800

It's a Jewish thing: "...Other features of Orthodox Jewish English include quasi-chanting intonation contours, loan uses from Yiddish ("I'm eating by her"; "He doesn't know from that")..."

By: Tholian

Tholian — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:43:04 -0800

Yes, it comes from Yiddish and is more prevalent in areas of the US where there were large numbers of Yiddish-speaking immigrants.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:44:57 -0800

What taz and Tholian said. We did it. (After all, what do we know from grammar?) : >

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 05:22:16 -0800

4th'd as a "Jewish thing"; I wouldn't understand.

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 05:31:45 -0800

Oh, of course - that makes sense, now that I think of those who use the expression. I still wonder if it's extended beyond Yiddish-Jewish usage, though - like saying "already" at the end of sentences to mean "hurry up and show us/get on with it."

As a Sephardic Jew, I'm only familiar with Yiddish from Leo Rosten's books, movies and guessing from Singer's translations. I suppose a German speaker with a good knowledge of Hebrew (or vice-versa) would be able to detect the origins of from but, again, I'm entirely ignorant.

Thanks a lot! I'll start saying it, pronto!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 05:43:14 -0800

You do that Miguel--otherwise you're off the team! ; >

"already" at the end, tho, is a much more generally-used expression, i think.

(this askme q reminds of this intensive English immersion thing i did in Spain in 01, and one of the Spaniards always put a "to" in front of every verb automatically when he spoke English--it was really hard to break him of the habit. The way you learn a language--from books, or literal translation--as opposed to speaking, has a lot to do with the way you use it. Maybe there is a Yiddish or other Eastern European construction that uses "from"?)

By: CunningLinguist

CunningLinguist — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:03:42 -0800

Yeah, it's definitely Yiddish, and so has become New Yorkese. (I love hearing recent immigrants from Asia and Africa using my grandmother's Yiddish constructions.) Hey, schmuck! What gives? Move it already! Limo, schlimo. Smart, he isn't.

By: samuelad

samuelad — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:26:19 -0800

My grandfather was fond of the non-Jewish derivation he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

By: Quinbus Flestrin

Quinbus Flestrin — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:04:29 -0800

I'm convinced by all your arguments that the true derivation is Yiddish, but like samuelad I think that the similarity to other expressions (hawk from a handsaw, chalk from cheese, ass from a hole in the ground) may well have aided its adoption in the wider culture.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:26:48 -0800

What everybody said about Yiddish, but I'll give an actual example: "He knows from nothing" (or "He don't know from nothing") is a direct loan-translation from Er veyst nit fun gorni(sh)t. (Fun is the Yiddish equivalent of German von, which also has this meaning: Er weiss von der Sache 'He knows about it.')

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:46:15 -0800

Well, thanks a million! Rarely has a question been so fully and entertainingly answered.

Thanks to the replies, I'm now intrigued by the confluence of "doesn't know X from Y" and the more direct Yiddish root.

Now I can say "So-and-so [some annoying guy falsely claiming to be very Orthodox] doesn't know from frum", right? ;)

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:38:12 -0800

languagehat knows from Yiddish too? Such a mensch he is--for goyim, of course. : >

Miguel, make it "Soandso don't know from frum" and you got it.

By: kenko

kenko — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:42:15 -0800

Languagehat, is "gornisht" from "gar nicht", or is that just a coincidence?

By: jbrjake

jbrjake — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:48:57 -0800

I'm now intrigued by the confluence of "doesn't know X from Y" and the more direct Yiddish root.

It intuitively seems like Yiddish or no Yiddish, the phrase "don't know from" should have some connection to "I don't know him from Adam." Alas, a Google cache of an old Amazon page says the latter phrase originated in a serial called "London Sessions" in 1784....

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:23:42 -0800

Miguel: Just make sure you pronounce frum with the vowel of good, or you'll sound like a goy!

amberglow: Come on, you know all New Yorkers are Jewish no matter what their ethnic background.

kenko: It sure is!

jbrjake: Nope. It's a calque from Yiddish (and possibly German -- I'll bet Pennsylvania Dutch say it too, but I don't actually know).

By: ikkyu2

ikkyu2 — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:05:05 -0800

Having been stimulated by the earlier OED thread, I find that my university offers WWW access to faculty. The good OED suggests that the American construction "Doesn't know from" is used in the sense of "to know" meaning "to distinguish," and that "nothing" is implied. It's not clearly a Yiddishism in the OED.

Viz.:

b. To recognize or distinguish, or be able to distinguish (one thing) from (another) = OE. tócnáwan.

  c1375 Cursor M. 6402 (Fairf.) Mony atte..knawes not e gode fra e ille. 1406 HOCCLEVE La male regle 23 Now can I knowe feeste fro penaunce. 1598 SHAKES. Merry W. III. iii. 44 We'll teach him to know Turtles from Iayes. 1704 POPE Windsor For. 175 Scarce could the Goddess from her nymph be known. 1843 MACAULAY Mme. D'Arblay Ess. 1865 III. 295 Burney loved his own art passionately; and Johnson just knew the bell of Saint Clement's church from the organ.

    (b) Phrases: not to know one's arse from one's elbow (and similar phrases): a coarse expression suggestive of complete ignorance or innocence; (not) to know from nothing (U.S.): to be totally ignorant (about something).

  1930 R. BLAKER Medal without Bar xiii. 69 'But nor 'an 'un' (this phrase was his masterpiece of thoughtful emphasis), 'nor 'an 'un of us knows 'is ears from 'is elbow when it comes to learninglearning like you orficers have got up your sleeves.' 1936 Mademoiselle Mar. 43/1, I find I belong to the wrong gender to take part in such confabulations, and know from nothing. 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §150/3 Be ignorant, know from nothing. 1944 'N. SHUTE' Pastoral iv. 75, I wish I'd had a crowd like that for my first crew. We none of us knew arse from elbow when they pushed me off. 1945 'F. FEIKEMA' Boy Almighty (1950) xvii. 162 Them San dietitians, they don't know from nuthin'. 1945 T. SHOR in Mencken Amer. Lang. (1948) Suppl. II. 695 A square don't know from nothin' and a creep is worse'n a jerk. 1966 'L. LANE' ABZ of Scouse 29 Don't know Thairsday from brekfuss-time. Ibid., Don't know 'is arse from 'is elbow. 1968 Encounter Sept. 22/1 He knows from nothin'.

Hope this helps and was not obnoxious.

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:51:22 -0800

Wow! Thanks a lot, ikkyu2.