Better sleeping through chemistry

October 3, 2008 6:22 AM

Is there any supplement I can add to 5-HTP to help me sleep at night? Or do I need to try something different instead? I'd rather not... Reasons & stuff inside.

I have a couple of issues, 5-HTP is really helping with some, not really helping with others.

Firstly, I have life-long issues with falling asleep at an appropriate time. Can't say much other than that I feel like my internal clock is off, and has been as far back as I can remember. For me to lay in bed for hours trying to fall asleep is the norm. I've tried everything between childhood and now, with no real solution, and suffered pretty awful consequences due to the issue for many years. I finally reached a point a few years back where I was just beyond tired of struggling with this.

My basic solution was to drink a glass of wine before bed. This has, over the last couple of years, turned into a 3-4 glass-per-night every-single-night situation. Basically I have been drinking myself rather drunk most every night for probably a year or so. The upside - No more trouble sleeping (obviously). The downside - I was basically being controlled by alcohol. If I didn't have anything to drink, knowing I would not have any to help me sleep caused me such incredible anxiety that there was no chance I'd sleep at all. I couldn't help but wonder if I was no longer anxious about not sleeping and just anxious about not drinking. My anxiety all day long was escalating in general. Also, I was becoming an increasingly surly and angry drunk. Not surprisingly, this whole thing was beginning to screw up my relationship.

I looked into some sleeping solutions, reasoning that if I could get to sleep another way, I'd at least not be drinking. I considered melatonin, but didn't try it (first, because I'd tried it years ago with little effect, and also because I read bout 5-HTP). I got some 5-HTP and i'm taking 2x 100mg pills every day. This has done wonders for my anxiety, I hadn't realized at all how bad it'd gotten. So my life is easier in that way. It has done nothing much for my ability to sleep at night, though. I'm getting 4-5 hours of sleep per night, and I just don't function well with that. Running constantly on empty this way has a lot of negative effects on my quality of life. I'm ending up in the exact situation that I started drinking to avoid, and I can't express how badly I don't want to go there. However, the anti-anxiety effects are really wonderful, and I hate to give that up.

Is there anything I can add to the 5-HTP to help me sleep? I'd be looking for something that would pretty actively make me at least a little drowsy (I don't feel drowsy after taking 5-HTP). I do know that the sleep aid in Tylenol PM makes me feel like crap the entire next day, worse than if I hadn't slept. Also have tried taking Benadryl, it doesn't do anything for me. But I'm not sure what, if anything, I can take along with the 5-HTP. Or if I should increase the dose? Am taking the two pills 12 hours apart - would I do better to take them both before bed since I'm looking for help w/ insomnia? Or do one in the morning and two before bed?

You're not a doctor, and neither am I. Am just looking for someone who might take the same supplement for insomnia (or combined it with something else) and had good results.

posted by anonymous to health (23 comments total)

5-HTP doesn't make me sleepy at all, either. I've had good results with valerian and melatonin - I know you said you tried melatonin years ago, but your mental/physical state is likely lots different now, it's worth a shot.
posted by HopperFan at 6:32 AM on October 3

Have you seen this page? Specifically note the details about fruit, protein, and the blood-brain barrier.

http://www.mercola.com/article/sleep.htm
posted by zeek321 at 6:33 AM on October 3

You could give melatonin or pot a shot.
posted by dunkadunc at 6:35 AM on October 3

You could try valerian. It is really effective for a lot of people.

How about looking at this from a different perspective? How about seeing a therapist? You have a problem--not sleeping--which is causing you anxiety--which causes you not to sleep. A therapist can give you some tools to reorganize your thoughts about this and to relax.
posted by FergieBelle at 6:40 AM on October 3

5-HTP won't do it by itself. Since you haven't mentioned herbals, my first try would be Valerian root. First try one of the piddly little low dose preparations that are often combined with hops or chamomile to see how you respond. (I'm looking for something stronger, myself.)
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:43 AM on October 3

Hi, I had sleep problems for a while and a friend recently turned me on to kava kava and eleuthero. I found both in powder form at a local tea/herb supply store and Whole Foods carries both in pill format. I like to add a 1/4 tsp of each to non-caffeinated tea or to a coffee substitute that I picked up at a grocery store.

Additionally, I had some bizarre anxiety issues after my 5 years in the military and both of the aforementioned herbs worked wonders. I'm not a sleep specialist but I found that the reason I couldn't sleep seemed to be that thoughts were racing through my head as I laid in bed. That may not be your issue, but it seems that kava kava allows me to focus and that's key in helping me fall asleep. Good luck getting some sleep.
posted by hammerthyme at 6:57 AM on October 3

My sleep problems are more often the waking up in the early hours of the morning, but at that point your not-falling-asleep/anxiety over not falling back asleep/not falling asleep loop kicks in.

My solution is books on tape and podcasts (enabled by a *very* tolerant spouse.) Like every sleep aid, there are dependency issues, but I'll take this dependency over chemical ones all night long.
posted by Flaming_Suppository at 7:09 AM on October 3

I misinterpreted one of you sentence starts:

"Running constantly on empty.."

Maybe you should try just those first two words? (not too close to bedtime).
posted by nat at 7:12 AM on October 3

Have you thought about seeing a medical doctor to get a prescription for sleeping pills? You say that you've tried a variety of "supplements" and over-the-counter medications, but you don't mention ever having tried prescription sleep meds.

I've had trouble falling asleep similar to what you describe for most of my life. In consultation with my doctor, I tried a couple of different prescription drugs. Ambien (which is also recommended as an anti-anxiety drug) worked great at night, but made me drowsy the next day. Seroquel, which is prescribed off-label for both sleep and anxiety, might be a good option for you. It works perfectly for a good friend of mine whose symptoms sound similar to yours. I finally ended up with Sonata, which is (as I understand it) a drug with a shorter half-life than most other prescription sleeping pills on the market. That means that it helps you fall asleep, but clears your system quickly, so you don't have as much trouble waking up in the morning or feeling sleepy during the day.

My point is, as you yourself mentioned, we're not doctors. But doctors have a lot of scientifically tested options that they can work with you to try. I urge you to see one to find out what options you have available to you.
posted by decathecting at 7:21 AM on October 3

A calcium/magnesium supplement can help you sleep better, though it may not make you drowsy. I've found it very useful to have right before bed.
posted by kindall at 7:21 AM on October 3

Have you tried Zinc? A lot of people claim zinc helps, specifically ZMA (zinc and magnesium).

I frequent a site that sells this as well as ZMA. I haven't tried the first one but it has 5-HTP as well as a couple other things (maybe you can research the other ingredients).
posted by wolfkult at 7:36 AM on October 3

Buy some Melatonin. OTC 5-HTP, if it does anything, doesnt affect sleep. Your Melatonin dosage can be tricky to find out. Start small and work your way up. It may take a while before your body responds to melatonin.

FWIW, all of this is useless without good sleep hygiene and good sleep habits. There are lots of insomnia questions here, you should read through them for more advice on this front.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:46 AM on October 3

You don't have insomnia. You mention that your "internal clock is off, and has been as far back as I can remember". That's a perfect description of a circadian rhythm sleep disorder. Can you get enough sleep, but only at socially unacceptable hours? Then it's not insomnia. Take a look at the information on Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome and see if it fits.

The bad news is: Sleep aids tend to be mostly ineffective for circadian rhythm sleep disorders. That's everything from herbal supplements to hardcore sleeping pills, although I've heard mixed reports about Ambien and Lunesta. Melatonin can help, as can light therapy. It's not an easy problem to deal with, though. Talking to a sleep specialist might be useful.

I have a similar problem and yeah, it completely screwed up my life for a long time. I was getting 3.5 hours a night at one point, which led to some pretty awful consequences. So now I'm trying to balance the sleep problems with the rest of my life. Your problems might be something you can manage effectively, but you should also be prepared to reorganise your life enough to find the right balance.
posted by xchmp at 7:49 AM on October 3

Also, after re-reading your question I'm starting to see an assumption that sleep is purely this chemical process. There's no magic bullet out there. Sleep is a complex system of psychology, mood, energy, internal clocks, relxation, etc. Before you start messing with more chemicals or more alcohol I highly suggest re-reading many of the insomnia questions to see what non-chemical techniques will help you.

You need to stop thinking of insomnia as this chemical process. You absolutely need a holistic approach to fix it. Yesterday's thread on this was pretty good, take the advice there seriously.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:52 AM on October 3

Well, I always say the same thing on this type of question, but consider the effects of light exposure: bright light (sunlight or a light box) first thing in the morning, and then as dark as possible (shades drawn, as many lights as possible turned off) a few hours before bedtime.

I only mention this because I've had similar problems in the past that seemed difficult or impossible to resolve. Now they're pretty much completely gone, and the light thing was the biggest component of the solution for me. (Of course, there are other factors that play in as well; for example, exercise and relatively low stress/mental agitation are important in terms of being able to sleep well at all, regardless of the timing.)
posted by dixie flatline at 8:01 AM on October 3

Things that help me fall asleep at night are valerian root, melatonin, ZMA, and Benadryl (or generic equiv).
posted by jaythebull at 8:15 AM on October 3

FWIW, 5-htp worked wonderfully for my anxiety for 2 months and then my body swung back in reaction to it and gave me terrible panic attacks. I'm off it now and will gladly take mild anxiety over the crazy-land 5-htp took me to.
posted by specialfriend at 8:52 AM on October 3

I've had similar life-long problems with insomnia - my bodily clock wants to go to bed at 3AM. Needless to say, this is sub-optimal. (On reading the link to Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome - YES, YES, THAT IS TOTALLY ME.)

The only, ONLY OTC drug that has worked for me at ALL is melatonin. The only one. I don't know what 5-HTP is or why you can't take melatonin in addition to it. Anyhow, Tylenol PM is the same drug as Benadryl. And no, it doesn't work very well.

Melatonin has seriously helped me so, so much. Taking it at the same time every night means that my body now naturally gets tired around that time, to the point where I find myself actually *taking* the melatonin less and less and being able to fall asleep on my own more and more. I was skeptical about it, but I can't say enough about how much it's helped me.

If there's a serious interaction preventing you from being able to try melatonin, my only advice would then be to talk to your doctor about prescription sleep aids.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:16 AM on October 3

5-HTP is a chemical precursor to serotonin, and, like most herbal supplements, there are serious concerns about dosage, quality and long-term effects.

It sounds like you have pretty severe anxiety and sleep disorder problems; my mom does too and I've seen her try to work through this first primarily with herbal medicines—they had a much more transitory and mild effect than the medication she's taken after consulting with a neurologist and a sleep specialist. That's the advice that I'd give you.

(On the herbal side, for anxiety, valerian is where we get Valium. The advantage of valerian is that it's a lot less potent, but it sounds like you might benefit from a traditionally prescribed dosage.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:57 AM on October 3

Oddly 5-HTP knocked me out for like .... days. Melatonin is a far more pleasant sleep experience for me and also something called Calms Forte, available at most drugstores and health food stores.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 10:11 AM on October 3

Alcohol is a stimulant. It makes you fall asleep and then wake up again. So you need ever-increasing amounts to put you into a stupor. The same with any chemical -- you will have a diminishing returns effect over time. Not an ongoing solution ...
Consider a non-chemical solution. The one that has really helped me to sleep is an MP3 player hooked up to a set of computer speakers. I have a collection of not-too-challenging, interesting audio books that lull me to sleep. In listening to the story, I drift off in a comfortable haze (the player has a sleep timer). The sorts of books that help me are kids books like Winnie the Pooh, sagas like the Lord of the Rings, funny-but-thoughtful authors like Terry Pratchett - stuff that you can hear over and over. The first time I hear a new book, it tends to keep me awake listening to it (but at least I am not lying there, anxious because I can't sleep). After that, I always find enough to interest me in the detail that I can bear to hear a familiar story again while I drift into sleep ... This solution even helps me sleep on the plane, which I have never been able to do before!
posted by sgmax at 10:27 AM on October 3

I love Ambien. It's fast acting and short acting (puts me to sleep right away but doesn't make me feel totally out of it when I wake up).

I can usually get away with taking half. It's widely available and it works. It sounds like the anxiety about not sleeping has kind of taken over--it sounds like you need to take a make-big-effort-to-fall-asleep break. I'd get the Ambien prescription and then work on other, more holistic, long term ways to deal with the problem (increasing exercise, better sleep habits-establishing routine, etc.).

But first, get some sleep.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:52 AM on October 3

One note on the melatonin - I know you said you'd tried it before, with no effect. Have you tried the sublingual type? I usually take regular pills, but randomly picked up sublingual pills at GNC recently. The counter guy warned me that even though the dose is much smaller it's also much stronger taken that way, and I didn't entirely believe him. But where a 3 mg pill makes me just sleepy enough to doze off after about 45 minutes, a 1 mg sub-lingual pill knocks me way the fuck out, practically instantly, and I sleep like a stone all night long.

If the regular pills don't do the trick, you might try it in sublingual form, just as an experiment.
posted by Stacey at 2:34 PM on October 3