Why did she lie to me?

September 22, 2008 2:52 AM

I went to a bar with a girl I'm seeing and hung out with her group of friends...and also met two of her ex-boyfriends. I played it off, but when we met, she told me she was 140% lesbian. Am I being too hung up on labels or is it a little shady that she didn't tell me that she's bisexual?

I'm not jealous, per se, and we haven't been dating that long (three weeks), and there has been absolutely no talk about making this serious, yet. In fact, once we talked about the situation, she told me that she was sleeping with one of the guys as recently as when first met.

She's a great girl, and I could really see myself falling for her, but this is giving me pause.

140% Lesbian /= Sleeping With Men.

Maybe 70%. Or maybe she's just not that good at lesbionic percentages?

Or am I completely overthinking this?

Hive mind, help a girl out?

posted by jnaps to human relations (33 comments total)

I have heard some people are reluctant to describe themselves as bisexual because of the assumptions that leads people to make about them.

She might have though that, if you knew she had recently slept with men, you would think she was not a 'proper' lesbian, and that would give you pause with respect to your relationship.
posted by Mike1024 at 3:14 AM on September 22, 2008

Why did she lie to me?

Why do you force her to choose a label? Peoples is complicated. See her as a unique individual and stop trying to put her into a box you can conveniently carry.
posted by three blind mice at 3:28 AM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]

You aren't, I think, overthinking it, in as much as most people are going to be as puzzled by a identified lesbian who fucks me as an identified vegetarian who eats bacon (mmm, bacon). Mike1024 touches on the topic of anti-bi prejudice that might cause her to be reluctant to identify in the way you're describing; it's certainly common enough to make people who might otherwise identify as bi equivocate.

Really, though, it's not that uncommon for sexual behaviour and sexual identity to be out of whack - think of all the straight men who are "situationally homosexual" - happy to have sex with other men in the navy, or in prison, or whatever. None of them would identify as gay or bi.

Or perhaps she feels that sex with men can be entertaining, but she's defines her sexuality by who she wants to form relationships with.
posted by rodgerd at 3:30 AM on September 22, 2008

identified lesbian who fucks me

That, of course, is meant to be "fucks men", not least since I've never met any identified lesbians who wanted to have sex with me.

Dear lord, that must be the worst. typo. ever.
posted by rodgerd at 3:32 AM on September 22, 2008 [39 favorites]

I'd personally be wary of anyone who thinks they can be 140% anything or who felt the need to specify the exact amount of their lesbian-ness.

That being said, there was a time in my life when my friends would have described me as 99.9% lesbian (Johnny Depp would have been the .1% ;)) but I've been in a very happy heterosexual relationship for nearly 7 years (6 days to go). For many people sexuality is a spectrum and their position on it varies throughout their lives, she may have once been into men but isn't any more. Its also not uncommon for gay people to have heterosexual relationships before they come to terms with their sexuality.
posted by missmagenta at 3:38 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

Seems a bit weird, but people ARE weird. I agree that she was probably trying to deflect any anti-bi sentiment, and maybe went a bit overboard.

Maybe she sleeps with men but doesn't form lasting relationships with them. Maybe she thought you'd run screaming if you found out she wasn't a gold star, capital L lesbian... you'll have to ask her what it all means though. Good luck!
posted by indienial at 4:20 AM on September 22, 2008

I think she would probably know more about this than we would. Why not ask her about it?
posted by jejune at 4:23 AM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]

I dated guys for a while but had always wanted to date women but never knew how. Once I started dating women, there were some who wouldn't date someone who was questioning or bi-sexual. I would always say things like "I know I'm a lesbian," even though that wasn't necessarily true. It's possible that that is what this girl is doing.

Now, luckily I am with a partner who accepts that I am bisexual, and I feel I can be honest and I was also upfront very early in the relationship. I would give the girl a chance and get to know her. But, I would also be a little careful as well. I would have never told anyone I was 140% lesbian. It seems a little odd.
posted by hazyspring at 4:24 AM on September 22, 2008

agree with the above--i wouldn't get hung up on labels.

she clearly didn't settle into her sexuality until quite recently--as evidenced by the ex-boyfriends. but just because she questioned and explored for a while doesn't mean she isn't a lesbian. i am not a lesbian, but i think a lot of lesbians do have ex-boyfriends.

it's also possible she was protecting herself against anti-bi bias, but that's not healthy, and the best thing you can do is support her and that part of her.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:35 AM on September 22, 2008

I guess there's the "technical" label, and then there's the personal/political/etc. label. Technically, she's bisexual, since she's slept with men in the past. But the identity she's chosen is lesbian. Maybe it's for political reasons. Maybe she's always like girls more. Maybe she'll tell you if you ask her.
posted by rtha at 5:36 AM on September 22, 2008

She could very easily be completely lesbian.

I have ex boyfriends, and I'm gayer than a rainbow. I had a really hard time coming to terms with the fact that I was a lesbian. I knew I wasn't attracted to men at all, but I thought maybe if I dated enough men, I'd stop being gay. Like how if you eat broccoli every day for a few months, eventually you'd start to like it. Except I was still gay, still hated broccoli, and was, by this point, completely miserable.

And even then, when I knew I was 100% gay, and I knew that wouldn't change, I still went out with guys, because I thought "well, I can just fake it for the rest of my life, so my family won't hate me."

I don't think my experiences are that uncommon amongst gay women.

She could have taken a long time coming to terms with being gay, like I did. She could have genuinely not known what her sexual identity was, so was experimenting with guys to try to find out. Or, she could be bisexual, but trying to avoid the stigma.

You're overthinking it. There's a decent chance she wasn't lying to you. You don't have to be straight or bisexual to have dated men in the past.

If it bothers you, why not ask her?
posted by spockette at 5:39 AM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]

Why not introduce her to the Kinsey Scale , disclose your rating, and ask what hers is?
posted by Carol Anne at 6:10 AM on September 22, 2008

You're overthinking it. Just ask her. Any of the perfectly plausible reasons above (anti-bi bias, she wasn't out when she dated them, she discovered she prefers women after she dated them) could be hers.

(Also: why is it important to you that she be 140% lesbian or whatever? Flip it around... if a guy was posting here about running into some of his girlfriend's ex-girlfriends after she had identified as straight to him, you can bet the comments would be overrun with suggestions that he get over his prejudices and accept her for who she is.)
posted by AV at 6:13 AM on September 22, 2008

Nothing sacred about sexual orientation exists, just like anything anyone else will say about themselves. You probably know people who say they are religion X, who do not actually act in accordance with those principles - and that's for folks who are thinking about something as serious as eternal reward, much less who they boff.

I agree with the anti-bisexual sentiment as a potential component. I also agree that anyone who has a need to proclaim themselves as 140% anything is probably either selling something to you or insecure (selling something to themselves).

You may also be dealing with additional fallout from the "I am what I say I am, rather than what I actually do" crowd, which is a little further down the rabbit hole of political correctness than I like to venture without packing my sense of humor. You've got the Jabberwock down there, the Mad Hatter, and about fifty thousand frat guys you'll have to accept as proclaimed lesbians, because they are, trapped on the inside. Here, I've got my vorpal sword, let me cut you free!

"Shady" is not probably the word I'd go with; it's about the usual level of entry deception in a relationship. At this point, it's all about the packaging. She's got that ugly ribbon knot hidden in the back and she'd like you to pay attention to the curls in the ribbon she's got coming off the big bows in front. If somewhere was all "Here, welcome to my horrible past!" in the first month, I'd start to wonder about that more than a few sins of omission. I don't put my second job as an usher on my resume, either. It's old, it's a trifle embarrassing, and it's not terribly relevant at this point.

That's not shady, just human nature.
posted by adipocere at 6:36 AM on September 22, 2008

I dated guys for a while but had always wanted to date women but never knew how. Once I started dating women, there were some who wouldn't date someone who was questioning or bi-sexual. I would always say things like "I know I'm a lesbian," even though that wasn't necessarily true. It's possible that that is what this girl is doing.

hazyspring's tale is commonplace in my experience. (Too bad all of us girls who wanted to date girls but weren't sure how didn't meet each other at that point, or at least get secret decoder rings or something.)

Nthing that she could be a lesbian who has dated men. If she is bi, the anti-bi thing may be a huge factor, though -- it gets a pretty negative reaction from, in my experience, most lesbians.
posted by desuetude at 6:44 AM on September 22, 2008

I think this is weird.

Lesbians might, in fact, fuck men, but if it happens enough to be a predictable occurrence than saying "lesbian" is a bit disingenuous.

And bi-phobia exists, but that doesn't magically make her a lesbian. Just like homophobia doesn't make you straight.
posted by sondrialiac at 6:53 AM on September 22, 2008

I dated women exclusively for about 8 years in my 20's, and identified as lesbian. However, there were guys before that, so while I identified as a lesbian, I did have ex-boyfriends.
Perhaps she feels the need to affirm her dyke-ness so vehemently because people have given her shit about having dated men in the past. Lesbians can be pretty harsh about those who they view as defecting to the other side.
Rarely is the Kinsey 1 or Kinsey 10, most of us are somewhere in between. Just ask her about it. Nicely.
posted by 8dot3 at 7:07 AM on September 22, 2008

Oh, for heaven's sake, people. Elton John was married to a woman, and has ex-girlfriends, and nobody would say he wasn't gay. Ellen DeGeneres has ex-boyfriends, and nobody would say she wasn't a lesbian.

Bisexuality is an orientation. Lesbianism is an orientation. They're not diagnoses--you don't have to get all Sherlock Holmes on someone and say "Well, your poon-to-peen ratio is 4:1 so you pass the Lesbian Threshold."

That said, it's possible that she's in denial or just doesn't understand her own sexuality. The only way you could figure out if that was the case would be to talk with her about it.

And it's possible that she could be lying. I have known people, particularly people with personality disorders who would say whatever they thought someone else wanted to hear: if it was a lesbian they wanted to get with, they were LESBIAN ALL THE WAY! and if it was a straight opposite gender person they wanted to get with, they were OMG SO STRAIGHT! Again, the only way you can figure out if this is what is going on is to talk with her about this stuff.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:16 AM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]

Talk to her, but instead of asking about the 140%, start with a general discussion of what being a lesbian means to her. You will learn a lot more from that than her explaining just that one remark.

One other thing to keep in mind, the general population is pretty bad at percentages. The fact that she has described herself as being a 140% something would tend to indicate a lack of numerological understanding. Perhaps she was thinking of something that we might choose to describe as ¨40%¨, and ran it through a filter of math illiteracy.
posted by yohko at 7:52 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know, it's completely possible that I'm bi-phobic...which is very strange because I have a couple of ex-boyfriends, too. I self-identify as lesbian, because I prefer relationships with women, but my longest relationship was with a guy, and it took me quite a few years to come out of the closet.

And when I finally did, no one would believe me because I'm fairly femme...that was an easy break-up...Deep breath...."I love you but I'm gay, so-" "No, you're not" "Uh, yeah, I-" "No." "Yeah, I really-" "No." "I AM GAY I AM SO GAY I AM 140% GAY IN MY VAGINA!!!"

So, yeah, I can completely see where she might be overcompensating, because she's very feminine as well.

why is it important to you that she be 140% lesbian or whatever?

The 140% part came from her mouth, unprovoked. I find that kinda strange in and of itself, and I found it a little odd at the time, considering I've never asked nor had someone proclaim their lesbian percentage. Sexuality is just too difficult to pin down to an exact amount.

I completely understand the bi-prejudice thing, because I've seen it in action, and I do recognize a little bi-phobia in myself. The thing is, I'm not so much worried about dating a true bisexual, but I am worried about dating and falling for someone who's more in the bi-curious range, and getting my heart a little torn when/if she realizes she's not. (This happened in my last relationship, which might be unfairly coloring this one).

You know, the same thing I did to my poor ex-boyfriend. I guess with every new relationship you've got to risk getting your heart broken, so I'm just gonna roll with it.

Should I even bring this up to her? We had a light conversation about her ex's that night, how one of them keeps texting her dirty messages, and the other took quite a while to heal over the break-up. She didn't try to hide them that night, even though up until then I had no idea that they even existed. I don't want her to think I'm hung up on this, even if I might be a little. I think it's something I need to sort out on my own before I have a potentially messy conversation with her, especially if I'm prejudiced.

Thanks, guys.
posted by jnaps at 8:26 AM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

Some people are way less into labels than others.
This is one of the reasons I don't trust terms like "vegetarian" or "polyamory". It seems like everyone uses those terms to mean slightly different things. When someone uses that term, all it really tells me is that I need to ask many more questions to understand what they really mean.
Which isn't a bad thing. More communication is good, right? Maybe you can look upon this as an opportunity to get paste labels, and to have some deep and real conversations about your girlfriend's past and preferences.
posted by browse at 8:30 AM on September 22, 2008

Most of the 140% lesbians I know have men in their past. Gender is fluid, blah blah blah, women often have much more complicated definitions of their own sexuality than men do, and if she says she's 140% I'd take her at her word.

For a very surface treatment of this issue, rent "Go Fish" and watch the scene where the butch lothario nails a dude while still identifying as a lesbian, and subsequently gets excoriated and ostracized by the skeptical dyke community in her head.

Bottom line, she's the one who gets to decide what her identity is. And if you're concerned she might go back to men, I would bring it up in a polite, "I'm curious to get to know you" kind of way. Avoid making her feel like she has to defend that 140% statement, and avoid sounding jealous or insecure.
posted by Lieber Frau at 8:46 AM on September 22, 2008

Did she say she'd be sleeping with any of them in the future? Maybe she dated them before she was self-aware enough to let this 140% nature of hers rise to the surface. Maybe she hated it the whole time and just didn't / couldn't realize it yet.
posted by salvia at 8:48 AM on September 22, 2008

Whoops, missed this sentence: "she told me that she was sleeping with one of the guys as recently as when first met." So, now I just ditto what Lieber Frau said, and maybe jejune (if you really do want to know).
posted by salvia at 8:52 AM on September 22, 2008

If you do have biphobic tendencies, and she is or thinks she might be bisexual, then the "140%" comment probably wasn't as unprovoked as you think it is. Just because you're not swanning around making nasty comments about how traitorous and fickle bisexuals are (you're not, right?) does not mean that she hasn't sensed a certain something in you that makes her defensive and anxious.

It doesn't take all that much exposure to biphobia (or homophobia, or sexism, or racism, or what-have-you) before a person becomes able to detect it in small quantities. Consider: if you are biphobic, and she has a fairly recent sexual history that includes men, you are a hell of a bad heartbreak risk for her.
posted by sculpin at 9:31 AM on September 22, 2008

She could be trying to convince you, or she could be trying to convince herself.
posted by electroboy at 9:40 AM on September 22, 2008

jnaps: I went to a bar with a girl I'm seeing and hung out with her group of friends...and also met two of her ex-boyfriends. I played it off, but when we met, she told me she was 140% lesbian. Am I being too hung up on labels or is it a little shady that she didn't tell me that she's bisexual? ... The thing is, I'm not so much worried about dating a true bisexual, but I am worried about dating and falling for someone who's more in the bi-curious range, and getting my heart a little torn when/if she realizes she's not... You know, the same thing I did to my poor ex-boyfriend.

You dated a guy?

Doesn't that make you just as bisexual as she is?
posted by koeselitz at 10:09 AM on September 22, 2008

Also, I understand that this isn't about 'labels' for you or for her. There's a whole lesbian dynamic, as is to be expected, and it makes sense that she'd tell you: 'I'm 140% lesbian.' That's her saying: 'hey, I'm not just the goofy little girl at the buffet who wants to try a little of everything, I'm in this, so don't worry. You won't have to spend months disentangling a weird situation where I go off and do impulsive things or get ambivalent or silly.' 'I'm a lesbian' is perfectly compatible with 'I've been with men in the past,' so chill. She hasn't given you reason to doubt that she was being honest.
posted by koeselitz at 10:15 AM on September 22, 2008

Like you, I take people's labels for themselves seriously, and I have been shocked at how this seems not to be true for a bunch of other people. I would also feel like she had lied describing herself to me as "140% lesbian" if she was having sex with men in the recent past. Sure, language is fluid and so is desire but I still appreciate the utility of a label like lesbian or bisexual and think those words have meanings. Ideally the label is just the opening to a long conversation about the people, but better to give it a little frame of an appropriate labelling word or to refuse all labels than to adopt a label which is inaccurate. I have gotten a little better at asking people what their terms mean but I don't know how not to be hurt by it when the disconnect catches me by surprise.

I'd advise telling her what you typed here about not wanting to be ditched by somebody who decides after some time she was never really up for a relationship with you. That matters whether the other issue is sexual orientation or any of a dozen other things that can mean insurmountable incompatibility.
posted by olecranon at 10:22 AM on September 22, 2008

Maybe she thinks percentage points are like alcoholic proof, and 200% == unity?
posted by jenkinsEar at 11:38 AM on September 22, 2008

Maybe she thinks percentage points are like alcoholic proof, and 200% == unity?

Haha! Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm going with. I figure, I like her, she seems to like me, and if there are any issues in the future, I'll worry about it then.

Thanks again, ya'll.
posted by jnaps at 5:03 PM on September 22, 2008

Heh- I have known a couple of women who switch back and forth, 100% to hear it from them. They have a nasty break up with their female partner and by god, are they DONE with women! No more women! They are 100% het!

And then they break up with the guy, and by god, MEN SUCK! Why did they ever think it would work out with a man?! And so on.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:20 AM on September 23, 2008

Old thread, but, any linkage to the Springer phenomenon -
all the guys who say they're 110%+ sure they're not the father? Are the father!
Only 100% sure? Actually, yeah. They often aren't.

But really, I'm liking the alcohol proof idea.
(If that isn't a turnoff)
posted by Elysum at 7:51 PM on October 2, 2008