Sleep schedule engineering?
September 12, 2008 1:58 AM Subscribe
I currently sleep haphazard hours, for example from 3am-10am. I'd like to change to going to bed by midnight, but I can't seem to get in the habit -- I always trend back to going to bed well after midnight. My working hours are flexible and my sleeping schedule doesn't overly interfere with my productivity, so I don't have external pressure.
Any suggestions, resources, experiences that could get me counting sheep earlier?
My working hours are flexible and my sleeping schedule doesn't overly interfere with my productivity, so I don't have external pressure.
So why fight it? It is a luxury to not have to punch a clock. Why force yourself to live like those who must?
But of you must what mandymanwasregistered said. Alarm clocks work better than sheep counting. Fix the back end and the front end will eventually fall into place.
posted by three blind mice at 2:40 AM on September 12, 2008
So why fight it? It is a luxury to not have to punch a clock. Why force yourself to live like those who must?
But of you must what mandymanwasregistered said. Alarm clocks work better than sheep counting. Fix the back end and the front end will eventually fall into place.
posted by three blind mice at 2:40 AM on September 12, 2008
Rather than trying to go to bed earlier, you should just stay up an entire day and finally fall asleep at the desired time. This always works for me.
posted by Nattie at 2:55 AM on September 12, 2008
posted by Nattie at 2:55 AM on September 12, 2008
I've found that managing light levels is the key. When you're actually in bed, it should be so dark that you really shouldn't be able to see your hand in front of your face. About two hours before bed, you should really be exposed to less than 40 watts. In a pitch black room, a sunrise alarm clock seems very bright, and I use one in addition to soft noise to wake me up. Try to expose yourself to bright light as soon as you wake up.
If you control your light levels, there is so much less fighting. The pitch black room when sleeping is key. I tried not putting up my blackout curtains for a few months, and getting up at 6am became a desperate struggle instead of business as usual.
Managing light levels is hard if you're in a relationship or there are other people around. And it takes a lot of experimenting depending on your window setup. (I supplement my blackout curtains with black, opaque foam board.)
But, I feel so much better in the morning and during the day when I go to all the trouble. It's like... night and day...
posted by zeek321 at 3:19 AM on September 12, 2008
If you control your light levels, there is so much less fighting. The pitch black room when sleeping is key. I tried not putting up my blackout curtains for a few months, and getting up at 6am became a desperate struggle instead of business as usual.
Managing light levels is hard if you're in a relationship or there are other people around. And it takes a lot of experimenting depending on your window setup. (I supplement my blackout curtains with black, opaque foam board.)
But, I feel so much better in the morning and during the day when I go to all the trouble. It's like... night and day...
posted by zeek321 at 3:19 AM on September 12, 2008
I have gone through the same process as you have. What you are doing wrong (according to your account, which I may have misunderstood) is fixing the "time to go to bed" time.
The right way to do it is using an alarm clock, and getting up at the same time every day, weekends included. Give yourself a maximum 60 minutes leeway (but not 60 each way, that's two hours leeway, and it starts being too much).
Once you are getting up regularly at the same time, you will start feeling tired and sleepy at the same time every day. You should monitor your sleepiness, and not fight it. Just go to bed when you feel tired, and your bedtime will start to be regular too.
Seconding the light levels advice. Don't watch TV or use the computer an hour before bedtime. Reading books in bed (by incandescent light) sends me to sleep like a charm.
You can do it! And yes, it has its downsides, but the perks are worth them.
posted by kandinski at 3:48 AM on September 12, 2008
The right way to do it is using an alarm clock, and getting up at the same time every day, weekends included. Give yourself a maximum 60 minutes leeway (but not 60 each way, that's two hours leeway, and it starts being too much).
Once you are getting up regularly at the same time, you will start feeling tired and sleepy at the same time every day. You should monitor your sleepiness, and not fight it. Just go to bed when you feel tired, and your bedtime will start to be regular too.
Seconding the light levels advice. Don't watch TV or use the computer an hour before bedtime. Reading books in bed (by incandescent light) sends me to sleep like a charm.
You can do it! And yes, it has its downsides, but the perks are worth them.
posted by kandinski at 3:48 AM on September 12, 2008
Get up early. That's my trick: just get up 6-7am with an alarm clock for a couple of days. You'll be falling asleep by 10-11pm in no time.
I quit working a day job about 4 years ago, spent the next year or so staying up late, getting up late, etc. before I realized that it's a waste of time. I'm much more productive in the mornings, even though I thought I was much more productive at night. The key was that I needed to be able to concentrate, not be distracted by other people/phone calls/etc. Getting up at 6am gives me an easy 3-4 hours to put in hard work in the morning and it's so nice to be done at 2-3 pm with everything.
Heck, today I finished working at half past noon, which is still later than yesterday's 10:30am.
posted by jedrek at 5:16 AM on September 12, 2008
I quit working a day job about 4 years ago, spent the next year or so staying up late, getting up late, etc. before I realized that it's a waste of time. I'm much more productive in the mornings, even though I thought I was much more productive at night. The key was that I needed to be able to concentrate, not be distracted by other people/phone calls/etc. Getting up at 6am gives me an easy 3-4 hours to put in hard work in the morning and it's so nice to be done at 2-3 pm with everything.
Heck, today I finished working at half past noon, which is still later than yesterday's 10:30am.
posted by jedrek at 5:16 AM on September 12, 2008
I've just broken about ten years of bad sleeping habits (about two months in, so I'll let you know if I'm still doing it in a year), mainly because I was sick of rushing in the mornings, sick of feeling groggy all the time, and also in this weird kind of loop where I didn't want to go to bed because I felt like it was, somehow, giving up on the day. I know that sounds odd, but it really was like that - going to bed felt like an admission of failure. Coupled with a whole heap of procrastination issues about doing anything creative and interesting with my evenings, and I'd be sat there til one in the morning with a vague intention to do something like read a book or edit some Flickr photos, or even write something, and instead I'd play games or watch DVDs until my eyes started closing of their own accord.
So, one morning, instead of using my normal alarm clock (BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP) or one of the horrid polyphonic ringtone things on my phone (BEEPEDY BOOP BEEP BEEP BOOP BA WOOP WOOP), I used something else as my wakeup on a whim.
When I coupled that track with putting my phone on the other side of the room and getting up at a fixed time every day, it completely changed things. The track is good because it has a ten second bass lead-in that is usually enough to wake me of its own accord, and doesn't get really loud until about 30 seconds in, which is normally enough time for me to have got up and switched it off. It's a pretty track that doesn't drive my wife up the wall (we get up at different times), and it doesn't set off my internal teenager response of 'Go 'way, wnnasleepmore' because it's not obnoxious and blaring like my alarm clock.
Getting up at the same time every day is the key though. I've now been getting up consistently at the same time for two months, and the thought of going back to my super-rushed 35-minutes-from-waking-to-front-door routine is a bit horrifying. I never forget things in the morning, I have time for breakfast, a good ol' surf on MeFi and occasionally do a bit of creative work, whether writing, editing pictures or whatever. It's lovely, and I go to work feeling like I've had a bit of the day to myself before having to give the rest up to the office. My wife likes it too because I bring her a cuppa if I'm up first, and we get to talk rather than grunting at each other as we pass at the shower door.
I've been tracking when I go to bed over the last couple of weeks, because I'm trying to work out the various times that best suit me to go to bed. What I've found is that I'm now able to get up on the dot at the same time every day, but I seem to sleep in about 2 and a half hour cycles. So if I go to bed and get a straight 8 hours, I'm golden. If I go bed much later and get about five and a half hours, I'm also pretty good, just not quite so sprightly. However, if I get six and a half hours or four and a half hours, I'm groggy and grumpy and half asleep all day, because I'm being woken up when I'm in a deep part of my sleeping cycle.
So, get a good wake up track, set a time to get up every day, then figure out the two or three good wakeup windows that you have as related to your bedtime.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:15 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
So, one morning, instead of using my normal alarm clock (BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP) or one of the horrid polyphonic ringtone things on my phone (BEEPEDY BOOP BEEP BEEP BOOP BA WOOP WOOP), I used something else as my wakeup on a whim.
When I coupled that track with putting my phone on the other side of the room and getting up at a fixed time every day, it completely changed things. The track is good because it has a ten second bass lead-in that is usually enough to wake me of its own accord, and doesn't get really loud until about 30 seconds in, which is normally enough time for me to have got up and switched it off. It's a pretty track that doesn't drive my wife up the wall (we get up at different times), and it doesn't set off my internal teenager response of 'Go 'way, wnnasleepmore' because it's not obnoxious and blaring like my alarm clock.
Getting up at the same time every day is the key though. I've now been getting up consistently at the same time for two months, and the thought of going back to my super-rushed 35-minutes-from-waking-to-front-door routine is a bit horrifying. I never forget things in the morning, I have time for breakfast, a good ol' surf on MeFi and occasionally do a bit of creative work, whether writing, editing pictures or whatever. It's lovely, and I go to work feeling like I've had a bit of the day to myself before having to give the rest up to the office. My wife likes it too because I bring her a cuppa if I'm up first, and we get to talk rather than grunting at each other as we pass at the shower door.
I've been tracking when I go to bed over the last couple of weeks, because I'm trying to work out the various times that best suit me to go to bed. What I've found is that I'm now able to get up on the dot at the same time every day, but I seem to sleep in about 2 and a half hour cycles. So if I go to bed and get a straight 8 hours, I'm golden. If I go bed much later and get about five and a half hours, I'm also pretty good, just not quite so sprightly. However, if I get six and a half hours or four and a half hours, I'm groggy and grumpy and half asleep all day, because I'm being woken up when I'm in a deep part of my sleeping cycle.
So, get a good wake up track, set a time to get up every day, then figure out the two or three good wakeup windows that you have as related to your bedtime.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:15 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
Getting up at a consistant time on the weekday and refusing to sleep past 10 on the weekends helps a whole lot. I also supplement that with melatonin. Take it 45 mins or so before bedtime. The process takes weeks if not months, but eventually you'll start to get sleepier earlier. Now its question of willpower to get yourself in bed. Once in bed you need to engage in relaxation techniques to calm your mind and make yourself go to sleep.
I'm a long time insomniac and sleep-phase shifter and this approach works for me. Its certainly not 100%, but better than nothing.
Last but not least, cut out caffeine past 10am. (or 3 hours after waking). You'd be surprised at how much America's epidemic with sleeplessness, poor sleeping, and insomnia have to do with drinking caffeine all day. I dont just mean coffee and tea, but soft drinks as well.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:08 AM on September 12, 2008
I'm a long time insomniac and sleep-phase shifter and this approach works for me. Its certainly not 100%, but better than nothing.
Last but not least, cut out caffeine past 10am. (or 3 hours after waking). You'd be surprised at how much America's epidemic with sleeplessness, poor sleeping, and insomnia have to do with drinking caffeine all day. I dont just mean coffee and tea, but soft drinks as well.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:08 AM on September 12, 2008
>I didn't want to go to bed because I felt like it was, somehow, giving up on the day.
I'll second this. In fact its common in insomniacs. You really need to let go of the day.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
I'll second this. In fact its common in insomniacs. You really need to let go of the day.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
It might not be possible.
No, really, you could conceivably have a sleep disorder such as delayed sleep phase syndrome where your circadian rhythm is naturally shifted to be several hours later than what society sees as socially acceptable. The bias against sleeping late is shown even in some of these answers--staying up late is a "bad" habit according to Happy Dave. However, if you have a circadian rhythm disorder, you're sleeping fine, soundly, and feel well rested, it might just mean that it's more natural for your body to go to sleep at 3 a.m. instead of midnight or even earlier.
A lot of this advice, in fact--not doing anything in bed besides sleeping, for example--would work for insomniacs, but won't necessarily help if you're not an insomniac. I, for one, have absolutely no problem falling asleep when I get there. What I do have a problem with is getting up repeatedly at 9 a.m. or earlier, which inevitably leaves me feeling drained, no matter how early I go to bed (I do feel better if I take an early afternoon nap after waking up early, something people with delayed sleep phase syndrome are good at, apparently). I would evaluate whether or not you really need to be up earlier, and what benefits it might bring. Are you sleeping soundly already? Are you functional, productive, and happy with your current sleep schedule? In that case, it might not be worth it--or, as I said, even possible--to make the switch.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
No, really, you could conceivably have a sleep disorder such as delayed sleep phase syndrome where your circadian rhythm is naturally shifted to be several hours later than what society sees as socially acceptable. The bias against sleeping late is shown even in some of these answers--staying up late is a "bad" habit according to Happy Dave. However, if you have a circadian rhythm disorder, you're sleeping fine, soundly, and feel well rested, it might just mean that it's more natural for your body to go to sleep at 3 a.m. instead of midnight or even earlier.
A lot of this advice, in fact--not doing anything in bed besides sleeping, for example--would work for insomniacs, but won't necessarily help if you're not an insomniac. I, for one, have absolutely no problem falling asleep when I get there. What I do have a problem with is getting up repeatedly at 9 a.m. or earlier, which inevitably leaves me feeling drained, no matter how early I go to bed (I do feel better if I take an early afternoon nap after waking up early, something people with delayed sleep phase syndrome are good at, apparently). I would evaluate whether or not you really need to be up earlier, and what benefits it might bring. Are you sleeping soundly already? Are you functional, productive, and happy with your current sleep schedule? In that case, it might not be worth it--or, as I said, even possible--to make the switch.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
Set your alarm, early, for a week straight. Get up on the first sound - don't snooze! You won't be able to go to bed very late after a couple of days but you will adjust.
If you find yourself having trouble falling asleep even if you're tired, don't lay in bed. Get up, drink some water and watch 15 minutes of tv or read a magazine. Go back to bed. After a while you'll be fine.
posted by shmooly at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2008
If you find yourself having trouble falling asleep even if you're tired, don't lay in bed. Get up, drink some water and watch 15 minutes of tv or read a magazine. Go back to bed. After a while you'll be fine.
posted by shmooly at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2008
Seconding possible DSPS. Also seconding the idea that if this isn't a problem then it's not something you need to fix.
I always find it kind of interesting to look at the difference between the answers people get for depression questions ("See a doctor!") and the answers they get for sleep questions ("Break your bad habits!), especially where people don't have insomnia and don't any obvious problems with sleep hygiene. Sleep problems - especially ones involving schedule rather than quantity - aren't always something that has an easy fix and maybe not a fix at all.
So yeah, get any sleep hygiene issues sorted out. And if that doesn't work, either live with your schedule or go see a sleep specialist.
posted by xchmp at 8:58 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I always find it kind of interesting to look at the difference between the answers people get for depression questions ("See a doctor!") and the answers they get for sleep questions ("Break your bad habits!), especially where people don't have insomnia and don't any obvious problems with sleep hygiene. Sleep problems - especially ones involving schedule rather than quantity - aren't always something that has an easy fix and maybe not a fix at all.
So yeah, get any sleep hygiene issues sorted out. And if that doesn't work, either live with your schedule or go see a sleep specialist.
posted by xchmp at 8:58 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, and don't feel bad about your schedule - lots of people seem to think that getting up early is some kind of moral imperative and getting up late is lazy, bad and a sign of lax discipline. It's what you do while you're awake that counts, not when that is.
posted by xchmp at 9:01 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by xchmp at 9:01 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm of the opinion that it's not really about discipline, but about light exposure. Darkness at night is important, but maybe even more important is bright light first thing in the morning. If you can't get out in the sunlight for, say, 30 minutes right when you get up (and it's hard to do this consistently), you could consider buying a light box to use indoors.
I tend to question DSPS as a diagnosis, at least when it's framed as having a late, but consistent sleep time--if that were an actual disorder, how would anyone ever successfully move from one time zone to another? If it's framed as your sleep time constantly drifting later and later, that seems more legitimate, but I still suspect that may just be the body's natural response to the kind of light stimuli that it's exposed to in modern society, rather than some kind of innate biological problem. I believe the circadian rhythm, when not reset properly by light, is something like 24 hours 15 minutes anyway, so if you're exposed to pretty much the same light levels all day long it's natural to drift forward.
But I do agree that it's not so much a discipline/sleep hygiene thing. I think the whole idea of "sleep hygiene" is based on a kind of Puritannical notion that the only solution to any problem must involve hard work. I know for me at least, if I do the light thing right I'll fall asleep at the desired time even with terrible "sleep hygiene", and without that all the sleep hygiene in the world won't help.
posted by dixie flatline at 9:34 AM on September 12, 2008
I tend to question DSPS as a diagnosis, at least when it's framed as having a late, but consistent sleep time--if that were an actual disorder, how would anyone ever successfully move from one time zone to another? If it's framed as your sleep time constantly drifting later and later, that seems more legitimate, but I still suspect that may just be the body's natural response to the kind of light stimuli that it's exposed to in modern society, rather than some kind of innate biological problem. I believe the circadian rhythm, when not reset properly by light, is something like 24 hours 15 minutes anyway, so if you're exposed to pretty much the same light levels all day long it's natural to drift forward.
But I do agree that it's not so much a discipline/sleep hygiene thing. I think the whole idea of "sleep hygiene" is based on a kind of Puritannical notion that the only solution to any problem must involve hard work. I know for me at least, if I do the light thing right I'll fall asleep at the desired time even with terrible "sleep hygiene", and without that all the sleep hygiene in the world won't help.
posted by dixie flatline at 9:34 AM on September 12, 2008
I can very easily still be wide awake at 3AM. I saw no problem with this, until the time I had to be up at 6AM for work. I tried going to bed early, cutting out coffee/tea/chocolate, warm baths, blackout curtains, pzizz, you name it. Nothing worked. Apart from getting up at 6AM *every*single*day* for a week. It was hellish, but it cured me. A week after starting it, I was in bed for 10PM, and asleep less than an hour later.
What might be relevant is that I need a lot of sleep in one go, OR I can make do with a 1hr nap. Anything in between messes with my rhythms.
posted by Solomon at 11:04 AM on September 12, 2008
What might be relevant is that I need a lot of sleep in one go, OR I can make do with a 1hr nap. Anything in between messes with my rhythms.
posted by Solomon at 11:04 AM on September 12, 2008
The bias against sleeping late is shown even in some of these answers--staying up late is a "bad" habit according to Happy Dave.
Hey, it's not that it's 'bad' per se, it's just that it was directly affecting my ability to do things on the schedule I kept, so it was a bad habit for me, personally. I know tons of genuine night owls, but my sleep habits were just a mixture of laziness and habits picked up from when I had a very different schedule.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:04 PM on September 12, 2008
Hey, it's not that it's 'bad' per se, it's just that it was directly affecting my ability to do things on the schedule I kept, so it was a bad habit for me, personally. I know tons of genuine night owls, but my sleep habits were just a mixture of laziness and habits picked up from when I had a very different schedule.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:04 PM on September 12, 2008
Definitely no caffeine past a certain point (I use 2pm as my cutoff and go to sleep at 11ish) and I totally agree with the fact that you have to get up earlier in order to go to bed earlier.
But if that's too harsh/not working, as the parent of two babies, when you are trying to shift their sleep patterns (like when you have a kid that wakes up fully charged at 4:30am), they tell you to do it gradually - no more than fifteen minutes a day. So try waking with an alarm fifteen minutes earlier each day.
Last, I really believe in the theory that "your bed should be for sleeping" (related horizontal activities okay ;) in that you should never read, watch tv or work in bed. I've been employing the VERY BAD habit of watching the nightly political roundup of nonsense from bed and I wind up so freakin fired up I can't get to sleep. Putting the kibash (sp?) on that one starting tonight.
posted by ellebe at 1:30 PM on September 12, 2008
But if that's too harsh/not working, as the parent of two babies, when you are trying to shift their sleep patterns (like when you have a kid that wakes up fully charged at 4:30am), they tell you to do it gradually - no more than fifteen minutes a day. So try waking with an alarm fifteen minutes earlier each day.
Last, I really believe in the theory that "your bed should be for sleeping" (related horizontal activities okay ;) in that you should never read, watch tv or work in bed. I've been employing the VERY BAD habit of watching the nightly political roundup of nonsense from bed and I wind up so freakin fired up I can't get to sleep. Putting the kibash (sp?) on that one starting tonight.
posted by ellebe at 1:30 PM on September 12, 2008
Best answer: You won't get up earlier unless you have a good reason to.
Currently you don't, other than "I want to". That's not good enough or you would be waking up earlier.
Think of something you can do in the morning that you can't do later, or it wouldn't be the same.
Here are my suggestions:
- Breakfast date.
- Early AM walk/run. You'd be surprised how the world is different at 6am vs 10 am.
- Start a sunrise photo blog.
- Become addicted to the breakfast menu at McDonalds.
These may not float your boat, think of something else. As someone who's been going to sleep between 3 and 5 am for 20 years (because I can) nothing will change it besides a better reason to get out of bed in the morning.
posted by Ookseer at 2:39 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Currently you don't, other than "I want to". That's not good enough or you would be waking up earlier.
Think of something you can do in the morning that you can't do later, or it wouldn't be the same.
Here are my suggestions:
- Breakfast date.
- Early AM walk/run. You'd be surprised how the world is different at 6am vs 10 am.
- Start a sunrise photo blog.
- Become addicted to the breakfast menu at McDonalds.
These may not float your boat, think of something else. As someone who's been going to sleep between 3 and 5 am for 20 years (because I can) nothing will change it besides a better reason to get out of bed in the morning.
posted by Ookseer at 2:39 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I agree with those that say what time you get up is the most important thing. I keep my alarm set at seven thirty every day. Even on weekends, when all I do is turn it off and go back to sleep, it still goes off at seven thirty. I find that's key to me being able to get out of bed at seven thirty during the week. And getting out of bed at seven thirty makes me want to be in bed by midnight.
I track my in bed by midnight-ness as a 'goal' on Joe's Goals, as well, to give myself a bit of kindergarten incentive to actually get to bed by midnight.
posted by jacquilynne at 4:59 PM on September 12, 2008
I track my in bed by midnight-ness as a 'goal' on Joe's Goals, as well, to give myself a bit of kindergarten incentive to actually get to bed by midnight.
posted by jacquilynne at 4:59 PM on September 12, 2008
Caffeine really isn't that big a deal for people who drink caffeine regularly because habitual consumers quickly build up a tolerance to its sleep disruptive effects. In any case, caffeine's effects are much more related to increased sleep latency (the amount of time you spend trying to get to sleep) than changes in sleep schedule.
posted by xchmp at 5:57 PM on September 12, 2008
posted by xchmp at 5:57 PM on September 12, 2008
Response by poster: It seems general consensus that I need to wake up at a reasonable time. Ookseer's suggestion of motivation really appeals to me -- I'll also try light level stuff if I can find a reasonably inexpensive method.
Thanks all!
posted by jhscott at 1:04 AM on September 13, 2008
Thanks all!
posted by jhscott at 1:04 AM on September 13, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 2:05 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]