Comments on: Before vs. Behind - which is correct here?

Question: Before vs. Behind - which is correct here?

FireStyle — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:33:47 -0800

Which preposition is the correct choice in this context?

I take great pride in making facebook invitations to parties I throw, making unique logos for each one, and carefully crafting a fun narrative for the body of the invite. However one sentence prompted my roommate (who does not possess the finest command of grammar herself) to correct me, and I was curious to know who was correct. I am not a master of english myself -- i do make grammatical errors from time to time -- so I'm no angel here either.

Anyway, the sentence in the invite is:

"If traveling on Apple St, our building is the one directly behind the tennis court."

She corrected me to say the building is *before* the tennis court.

Here is a makeshift diagram of our apartment, a is Apple St, t is the tennis court, ** is our apartment, and HH are other apartments. You you be walking towards the tennis courts. Also, as you are approaching my apartment, you will see the tennis courts first.

attttttttttttt
a
a
a**HHHHH
a

Thanks much for helping to satisfy a curiosity! =)

By: RussHy

RussHy — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:39:12 -0800

I would say "before".

By: Polychrome

Polychrome — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:42:01 -0800

If they walk past your apartment before the tennis courts (and it looks like they do) then you say "before." By using "behind," you imply that they need to walk past the tennis courts first before encountering your apartment.

By: AlliKat75

AlliKat75 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:45:07 -0800

I think "behind" is correct, if you walk past the tennis courts first (as if, in your diagram, I would be walking from top to bottom). However, I am really not understanding directionality here. ???

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:46:29 -0800

Use compass points. "If traveling north on Apple St, our building is the one directly south of the tennis court."

By: Dec One

Dec One — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:59:17 -0800

So I would see your building after I see the tennis courts? If I'm understanding that correctly, I don't know how it could possibly be correct to say the building is before the tennis courts.

Polychrome seems to have the opposite understanding of mine, though, so maybe I'm wrong.

By: grateful

grateful — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:08:55 -0800

CPB - not to nitpick, but in your example the building in question is the one directly south of the tennis court regardless of the direction the traveler is going.

By: nowonmai

nowonmai — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:11:07 -0800

"Behind" suggests that the tennis courts are between your apartment and Apple Street; ie. that your apartment is set back from the road with the tennis courts in front of it. This seems not to be the case, according to the map.
Your description is a bit confusing—"you you be walking" is no kind of grammar!—but: if you're going South on Apple Street your apartment is after the tennis courts; if you're going North on Apple street your apartment is before the tennis courts. "In front of" and "behind" do not appear to be applicable prepositions.

By: FireStyle

FireStyle — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:11:39 -0800

When you are walking (or driving for that matter) on my street, you will most definitely see the tennis courts first, because it is an elevated structure. It is a landmark you will see before you see my building my apartment. only a small road separates the entrance to my apartment and the courts.

Also the diagram is read from the bottom up.

By: adamdschneider

adamdschneider — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:14:31 -0800

Compass directions would be the least ambiguous, but in the situation you describe (walking on Apple St., reaching tennis courts before apartment) and using your "diagram" as a guide, I would say you're both wrong and the best word to use would be "beyond".

Also, this is not a matter of grammar but of preference and clarity.

By: Dec One

Dec One — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:14:55 -0800

Let me get this straight. You're walking along Apple Street. First, you see the tennis courts. Later, as you get closer, you see the apartments, in front of the tennis courts?

By: adamdschneider

adamdschneider — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:17:27 -0800

I should have previewed. While I still don't think this is a grammar matter, given your clarification I would consider your roommate more correct in that even though you see the tennis courts first, you reach the apartment first and thus it's difficult to say in what sense you could consider the apartment behind the courts, at least for the purposes of navigation in that specific direction down the street with that specific destination.

By: greytape

greytape — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:17:58 -0800

Definitely 'before', although this seems so obvious I can't help but think I'm missing something.

By: Metroid Baby

Metroid Baby — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:18:18 -0800

This isn't a question of grammar as much as it is a question of clarity, and it's best to be as clear as possible when it comes to driving directions.

If someone is traveling on Apple St. and they pass the tennis courts first and then your apartment (which is my interpretation), then it is just past the tennis courts.

If they are traveling on Apple and pass your apartment first and then the tennis courts, your apartment is before the courts.

If Apple is not a one-way street and it's possible people could approach from either direction, use north/south terminology as Cool Papa Bell recommends.

I wouldn't say "behind" in any of these circumstances. When buildings are described as "behind" other landmarks it generally implies that the building is set back from the street. "Behind the house," for example, would often be the backyard.

By: gyusan

gyusan — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:18:24 -0800

I'd just leave the tennis courts out of it and give a number address. The tennis courts seem to be confusing people.

"The party will be at #66 Apple Street."

By: Dec One

Dec One — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:23:49 -0800

The tennis courts are confusing people because the OP is giving conflicting information about where they are.

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:24:49 -0800

I would only use "behind" if the apartment building is set further back from the street than the tennis courts:

a
a
a ttttt hhhhhh
a
a
a

By: Dec One

Dec One — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:26:16 -0800

it's difficult to say in what sense you could consider the apartment behind the courts

This is what's bothering me, too.

By: FireStyle

FireStyle — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:27:17 -0800

lol... let me try this again...

diagram v.2

* *
* * TTTTTTTT
* * TTTTTTTT
* * ********
*
* * ********
* * HH
* *
*a *

^
^
^

A is apple street, and the arrows indicate that I'm traveling from the bottom, up... *towards* the tennis courts (T). HH is my apartment.

If traveling on apple st, you will see the tennis courts because it is elevated... so as soon as you turn onto apple st, you will see the courts. However you still have to walk a little ways before you reach my house. So I used "behind" because from the vantage point of the person walking to my apartment, you will first see the tennis courts, and directly behind it is apartment.

Hope that clarifies it some!

[q] "you you be walking" is no kind of grammar! [/q]
My apologies, I suck at typing, and don't look at the screen... that's a typo... I meant you would be =)

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:32:26 -0800

You may see the tennis courts first, but according to your diagram, your apartment building is not BEHIND the tennis courts. The Empire State Building is huge, and I can see it from a distance, but that does not mean that all of the buildings I pass along the way to the building are BEHIND it.

By: rhizome

rhizome — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:34:32 -0800

"...next to the tennis courts."

"If you get to the tennis courts you've gone too far."

By: wabbittwax

wabbittwax — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:35:12 -0800

Might I suggest just saying,
"my apartment is by the tennis courts" or "beside the tennis courts",

or

"As you approach my apartment building along Apple Street you're gonna see some tennis courts. But I don't live there; I live in the building next to them."

By: rhizome

rhizome — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:36:38 -0800

So, with the additional info, "behind" is out of the question. Judging from your diagram, is there something wrong with "across the street?" How about "below?"

By: Dec One

Dec One — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:40:03 -0800

So I used "behind" because from the vantage point of the person walking to my apartment, you will first see the tennis courts, and directly behind it is apartment.

This conflicts with your diagram. According to your diagram, from the vantage point of the person walking to your apartment, the apartment is directly in front of the tennis courts, not behind them.

By: missmagenta

missmagenta — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:43:42 -0800

Based on your diagram your apartment is not behind the tennis courts (though I don't see how you could see the tennis courts first when walking down a straight road)

Of course, the truth is that the direction of travel (which was not specified in your sentence) determines whether the tennis courts are in front of or behind - although really, you are neither in front or behind, you are next to them in relation to the street.

By: FireStyle

FireStyle — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:45:37 -0800

Oh, ok I see what you guys are saying and before does make a lot of sense. So not to beat a dead horse... one more thing to add to completely satisfy my curiosity...

in Emelenjr's response in saying "The Empire State Building is huge, and I can see it from a distance, but that does not mean that all of the buildings I pass along the way to the building are BEHIND it," About about a building in the same complex (as the tennis courts are in my complex... didn't add that, my apologies" I wouldn't say Frankie's Pizza is behind the Empire State building, but how about a newspaper stand on the premises? wouldn't that stand in that case be directly behind the Empire State Building? Or the shed is behind the house, because it is on the same property? just a thought, and thanks much for the enlightening discussion =)

By: burnmp3s

burnmp3s — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:00:10 -0800

I wouldn't say Frankie's Pizza is behind the Empire State building, but how about a newspaper stand on the premises? wouldn't that stand in that case be directly behind the Empire State Building?

It depends on where you are standing. If this is the case (overhead map):

you

empire state building

newspaper stand

Then the newspaper stand is behind the Empire State Building.

If this is the case:

you

newspaper stand

empire state building

Then the newspaper stand is in front of the Empire State Building.

Something cannot be both in front of and behind something else at the same time, and it depends on your perspective which is which.

By: Orinda

Orinda — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:05:59 -0800

I see the sense in which the apartment could be said to be "behind" the tennis court: if you walked along the street in the direction indicated, when you got to the tennis courts, if you didn't turn around, the apartment would be behind you. Alternative way of imagining this: if you are looking down the street from the starting point of FireStyle's diagram, you might think of the buildings along the street as being like cars traveling in the same direction as you. Buildings closer to you would therefore be "behind" the buildings farther from you.

Nevertheless: I think it would be clearer to most people to say that the apartment is just before the tennis court.

On preview, maybe I'm not "getting" FireStyle at all, because the following makes no sense to me: "I wouldn't say Frankie's Pizza is behind the Empire State building, but how about a newspaper stand on the premises? wouldn't that stand in that case be directly behind the Empire State Building? Or the shed is behind the house, because it is on the same property?"

By: Neiltupper

Neiltupper — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:06:51 -0800

If you're really picky about grammar, you might not want to have that apartment building careening down Apple St.

By: 23skidoo

23skidoo — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:14:13 -0800

Or the shed is behind the house, because it is on the same property?

A shed is "behind" a house because a house has a designated front and back. "The shed is behind my house" means that if I go in the front door, and out the back door, I will probably be able to see the shed.

This usage of "behind" is only useful for buildings with a distinct front and back. I can say "I left the car behind the supermarket" and be pretty well understood, but if I say "I left my car behind the mall", I have a high chance of being misunderstood.

Tennis courts don't have a distinct front to them, at least not one that will be obvious to someone who needs directions to your place. In this case, the word "behind" should really only be used to mean "being visually being blocked by" or "in the same line as, but farther away from me than". The house is behind the tennis courts means either "The house is being visually blocked by the tennis courts" or "The house is in the same line as, but farther away from me than the tennis courts."

Your house is before the tennis courts.

By: Orinda

Orinda — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:53:11 -0800

23skidoo has got it.

By: zardoz

zardoz — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:07:21 -0800

"Behind" is no good, "before" is better, but compass directions are always the best way to give directions/orientations. So "south of the tennis courts" is the winner.

By: Citrus

Citrus — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:44:40 -0800

Use whichever one you want, and provide clear illustrations. And, if you're in a big city, you can probably use all kinds of Google Maps goodness to make it blaringly obvious.

By: billtron

billtron — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:38:53 -0800

This is hilarious. What would Picasso say if he were having a party near some tennis courts?

Consider this comment another vote against "behind." Just give your address.

By: FireStyle

FireStyle — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:04:06 -0800

well met.... well this was fun lol. thank's for all the replies. I will update future directions. Regardless of before or behind in the instruction, its just about impossible to miss the place... there are really no other options! But it is better not to sound ignorant in my writing if it can be helped, so before it is! =)

thanks all

By: amethysts

amethysts — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:07:55 -0800

Having seen the apartment/tennis courts in question, I am ready to offer a definitive answer.

For the purposes of giving directions, "before the tennis courts" is correct. From another perspective, one could also say "behind the tennis courts" but it would be less clear for giving directions in this case.